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IDK if anything has really changed to make Staraptor any better than it was before. It gets completely shredded by the omnipresent Weavile, and the increasing usage of 'mons like M-Aero, M-Manectric and Raikou that came with the shift towards offense brought by Hoopa-U's introduction is certainly not doing it any favors. The issue is that, competition from Talonflame aside, Staraptor is either lacking in speed or missing out on KOs, depending on if it runs Band or Scarf. I'll give credit where credit is due: Staraptor discourages Man and Raikou due to the fact that they both get bopped by Double Edge. However, it is far from hard to find checks for this thing (Skarmory is the first to come to mind for what should be pretty obvious reasons), and it can very easily be taken advantage of once its locked into something (for example, Manectric can come in on it and use it as momentum fodder if it is locked into Brave Bird). This is all before you consider that it just goes kamikaze on anything it hits due to the fact that both its STABs are recoil-based. Its disappointing speed tier combined with its nonexistent longevity combined with the sheer amount of competition it faces for a team slot aren't doing it any favors. I think that, if it were to have moved up at any point, it would have been before Hoopa was released as it shreds balance. However, as the meta is currently more offense-oriented, which Staraptor mostly struggles against.
On a side note, I personally don't like Close Combat on Staraptor, opting to use Final Gambit as a one-time way of breaking through its counters. This is because it allows me to gain momentum in matches where Staraptor is otherwise pretty much dead weight (e.g. against hyper offense) and, if I'm honest, it is the set that I'd be talking about if I were nomming this thing as it is better than the CC set on most teams nowadays simply due to its ability to easily create momentum v.s. the opponent. Its below the level of Final Gambit Shedinja tho.
Just blacklist latios-mega so we never have to go through this shit ever again.
Other thoughts:
Roserade is only good as a hazard aetter. Scarf set is awful. Just use it to sleep stuff, get up hazards and then utilize natural cure rest.
Normal Sableye isn't bad at all, the fact that MSAB usually waits to mega unless hazards are about to go up just shows how much utility there is in prankster.
Nidoking is way better than its sister in OU as the only reason to use them is for Dat sheer force. Poison jab and sucker are both great.
I still think Hoopa-C ought to drop, but not to unranked.I think put it in C, it can befriend latios-mega.
Bliss is terrible unless you run sets with like fire blast or shadow ball. D for me.
And yeah raise wobb to goth's rank or drop goth. Wobb is less deadweight 8n fewer matchups, but not as good vs stall. Overall I prefer Wobb but they are probably equally good. So yeah that's all.
How is Wobb not good vs stall? It can encore support mons into useless moves, use safeguard to protect against status, and smack back any attack without dying as well as creating opportunities for sweepers to break their counters on stall. (since most stallmons are piss poor weak)
Just blacklist latios-mega so we never have to go through this shit ever again.
Other thoughts:
Roserade is only good as a hazard aetter. Scarf set is awful. Just use it to sleep stuff, get up hazards and then utilize natural cure rest.
Normal Sableye isn't bad at all, the fact that MSAB usually waits to mega unless hazards are about to go up just shows how much utility there is in prankster.
Nidoking is way better than its sister in OU as the only reason to use them is for Dat sheer force. Poison jab and sucker are both great.
I still think Hoopa-C ought to drop, but not to unranked.I think put it in C, it can befriend latios-mega.
Bliss is terrible unless you run sets with like fire blast or shadow ball. D for me.
And yeah raise wobb to goth's rank or drop goth. Wobb is less deadweight 8n fewer matchups, but not as good vs stall. Overall I prefer Wobb but they are probably equally good. So yeah that's all.
Gotta Agree with pretty much everything here, but I mainly want to expand on Nidoking/queen difference. As both get the same moves to utilize, the only difference between them is there stats. The main uses of King versus Queen is offensive versus defensive. Nidoking can just as easily run support moves like SR or TSpikes but Nidoqueen outclasses it here. I definitely think that Nidoking should move up as in general Nidoqueen is outclassed by other bulky hazard setters like Dragalge or Chomp. Nidoqueen still has its uses but I don't think they should be in the same subrank as Nidoking is much better at what it does and has more of a niche in its own personal role.
Wobb is worse than Goth against stall... nuff said.
Initially I thought Vertex was worthless and should drop. However that is clearly not the case. Vertex has a very low opportunity cost due to not being a Mega. It also has the versatility to blow through all of its counters if carrying the correct coverage move. Disregard that it only has four moveslots for a moment. In fact, it could rise even higher than one subrank. I believe that Vertex may even be considered overcentralizing due to lack of solid counters. It is in no way outclassed by anything in the metagame, even though bludz shares many traits with it. Sharing traits with something =/= outclassed fyi everything is a special snowflake.
tldr; stop underrating Vertex he is a monster. Even though the council is made up of tournament players I feel my opinion here from testing with Vertex is superior due to my adventures on the ladder even though I can't provide replays atm because I'm on my mobile.
I don't really understand some people's love for Staraptor. Admittedly I've only made like two actual teams with it but each time I'm reminded how mediocre it is.
It has nothing over the ridiculous amount of wallbreakers to choose from already, bar U-Turn which you won't be using anyway if rocks are up, and Final Gambit which is useful but furthers the problem of Staraptor's longevity. It's cool to 2HKO stuff but you're doing it at the cost of 2HKOing yourself. Why am I using this over other wallbreakers that don't kill themselves? I'd rather use Mienshao, who has at least three viable sets, also has Reckless and only a 10% chance of killing itself, and is usable against offense! (sorry, move shao up tho pls)
It also matches up poorly against faster paced teams, a common trend of late. I've only ever used Banded, but Scarf just seems bad trying to patch up its matchup vs offense at the cost of everything else, and is even more outclassed.
That being said, I can't ignore its scary offensive options and the fact that it DOES break through walls easily and sometimes that's worth the cost. However with other wallbreaker options that are more consistent and long-lived, I don't see why Staraptor should move up.
IDK if anything has really changed to make Staraptor any better than it was before. It gets completely shredded by the omnipresent Weavile, and the increasing usage of 'mons like M-Aero, M-Manectric and Raikou that came with the shift towards offense brought by Hoopa-U's introduction is certainly not doing it any favors. The issue is that, competition from Talonflame aside, Staraptor is either lacking in speed or missing out on KOs, depending on if it runs Band or Scarf. I'll give credit where credit is due: Staraptor discourages Man and Raikou due to the fact that they both get bopped by Double Edge. However, it is far from hard to find checks for this thing (Skarmory is the first to come to mind for what should be pretty obvious reasons), and it can very easily be taken advantage of once its locked into something (for example, Manectric can come in on it and use it as momentum fodder if it is locked into Brave Bird). This is all before you consider that it just goes kamikaze on anything it hits due to the fact that both its STABs are recoil-based. Its disappointing speed tier combined with its nonexistent longevity combined with the sheer amount of competition it faces for a team slot aren't doing it any favors. I think that, if it were to have moved up at any point, it would have been before Hoopa was released as it shreds balance. However, as the meta is currently more offense-oriented, which Staraptor mostly struggles against.
On a side note, I personally don't like Close Combat on Staraptor, opting to use Final Gambit as a one-time way of breaking through its counters. This is because it allows me to gain momentum in matches where Staraptor is otherwise pretty much dead weight (e.g. against hyper offense) and, if I'm honest, it is the set that I'd be talking about if I were nomming this thing as it is better than the CC set on most teams nowadays simply due to its ability to easily create momentum v.s. the opponent. Its below the level of Final Gambit Shedinja tho.
Even though there has been a shift toward offense does not mean that staraptor is not effective. Just look at tail glow manaphy. It is in the same boat as staraptor because it has trouble against offense compared to defense and staraptor does better against offense than manaphy because it can utilize a scarf set effectively. I also want to compare it to victini because while victini is harder to switch into, staraptor takes recoil at the cost of not having its stats dropped which allows it to remain at the base 100 speed tier after an attack and has a better shot at cleaning. Even with the shift to offense, wall breakers have their place on any team and with power comprable to kuyrem-b's outrage with the banded set and still being able to do well against offense with a scarf (especially paired with final gambit which I completely forgot about) it can be devestating to opposing teams.
Nominating Crobat to D rank.
Crobat's niche as a defog user that can check certain pokemon, in my opinion, makes it deserve a spot in D rank. Here is the set that I am using:
The EV's give Crobat enough speed to outspeed base 110 pokemon, such as Mega Gallade and Gengar. 248 EV's are put into HP to maximize Crobat's overall bulk. The rest is dumped into attack with an adamant nature to get some KO's with Brave Bird. You could also choose a set with 248 HP to out-speed Serperior, depending on what your team needs.
Defog is the main reason to use this pokemon in the first place, as hazard control is very important on any team. Roost is pretty self-explanatory. Taunt is an important move on Crobat as it allows it allows you to completely stop certain pokemon, such as Tank Garchomp, Ferrothorn lacking Gyro Ball, and Clefable. Brave Bird is what sets apart Crobat from other defog users, such as Zapdos and Mandibuzz, as it give Crobat a niche of taking out certain pokemon that your team might be weak to.
Crobat has an amazing typing, having multiple 4x resists, 1 immunity, and two useful resistances. On the flip side, Crobat has 4 weaknesses to pretty common types, including a weakness to stealth rock, which is always bad for a defog user.
With said resistances, Crobat has many opportunities to come in and defog hazards away or potentially take out your opponent's pokemon. For example, Crobat is able to switch into Keldeo's Secret Sword and OHKO most of the time after stealth rock with Brave Bird.
40+ Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 296-350 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
With Infiltrator, Crobat can even come in on Substitute+Calm Mind sets with ease and OHKO. If Crobat switches into a Choice set, you than have the options of getting rid of hazards, roosting off current damage, or predicting the switch. Here are some calcs showing Crobat's potential with Brave Bird:
40+ Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 296-350 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (switches in on Secret Sword/Substitute/Calm Mid)
40+ Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 284-336 (102.5 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Switches in on Close Combat/Sword Dance)
40+ Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 205-243 (79.1 - 93.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Switches in on Sludge Bomb)
40+ Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Medicham: 344-408 (129.8 - 153.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Switches in on High Jump Kick/Bulk Up/Fake Out)
40+ Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 144-171 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Taunt cockblocks Clefable)
40+ Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 186-220 (67.1 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Needs some prior damage. Can switch in on Focus Blast/Hyper Voice)
40+ Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 386-456 (115.2 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (switches in on Quiver Dance and outspeeds)
40+ Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kricketot: 542-638 (252 - 296.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Don't use Vertex)
As you can see, Crobat has many opportunities to come in and either force a switch and get hazards off the field or simply get a KO. It's ability to check certain things while being able to defog hazards gives it the reason to be D rank.
A major thing holding Crobat back is 4MSS. It wants to run so many things, such as Haze, U-Turn, and Toxic, but Taunt, Defog, Brave Bird, and Roost are always mandatory. Crobat's bulk is also mediocre, especially without major investment, and also lacks that much offensive presence. Do to these reasons, Crobat should go no higher than D rank, but with the pros, D rank seems the perfect place for Crobat in the metagame at the moment.
I second Waluigi's proposal for Crobat to D rank. The calcs don't lie, it's a usable offensive taunter/ defogger and can be considered for teams that need that and are weak to Keldeo and several base 110 mons.
Obviously it's a niche option and is only justifiable in specific builds, but that's why it belongs in D and nowhere higher.
Why exactly should Staraptor rise when one of the main reasons you don't see its superior counterpart much anymore, banded Talonflame, is from heavy hazard stacking and Tankchomp? It doesn't even get priority on its Brave Bird. Its only real selling point is having Close Combat with its Flying STAB meaning it can handle Heatran, Bisharp and Tyranitar if you wanted, and even then you have Hawlucha as an option, with a much nicer speed tier of 118 on top of Unburden, Swords Dance, Acrobatics not causing recoil, and not being SR weak. So how exactly is Staraptor any better now than it was before? I only see the meta environment being worse for it, not better.
EDIT: Why would you use a Crobat set that doesn't utilize that brilliant 130 speed tier? Why would you opt to make yourself slower than Tornadus-T, Weavile, Starmie, Raikou, Serperior, Alakazam, Hawlucha, etc?
Jaroda crobat loses to most of those pokemon regardless (bar Zam and maybe Torn-T) and needs all the power he can get. he already outspeeds base 110s, so he only needs 220 Spe EVs or 248 for serp.
After pretty extensive testing of raptor I can pretty safely say that while its undoubtedly good at what it does, what it does just isnt as valuable anymore. Most teams run unconsciously a switchin to the scarf set and 100 Spe isnt exactly outpacing the majority of the meta if it runs Band so most teams have no trouble revenging it, especially considering the popularity of raikou. Its also pretty reliant of being on a birdspam team, ive tested it on any other sort of team and its really lacking. The problem with this is that birdspam just isnt as effective a playstyle anymore and will only net wins on the lower ladder, which doesnt bode well for the only good generic bird mon. Its still got a cool niche but its not worth moving up for atm.
Just a heads up, that spread is pretty inefficient. 40 Atk/220 Speed Adamant gives you 248 Atk and 351 Speed. 140 Atk/120 Speed Jolly gives you 251 Atk and 358 speed, outspeeding Timid Serperior.
Yeah, always run a plus nature in your highest stat if possible to maximize the effectiveness of EVs. Crobat seems like a decent stallbreaker to me, so D seems fair. It is quite good on volt turn teams as the only offensive mon with volt/turn and hazard removal (others are forry, mew, scizor and mandibuzz, but i didn't count scizor since it is a mega). In fact, I threw it on my latest team that also has a mega bee and it did quite well. A fast mon that crushes clefable is really nice.
Hey everyone, I'm a new forum user, so please don't bite. Any constructive criticism towards how to structure nomination posts would also be appreciated a lot.
Anyway, I'd like to nominate Krookodile from C to C- rank.
From my understanding, Krookodile is able to fulfill two main roles on teams: A shitty defensive set with intimidate, and a late game cleaner set with its other ability moxie.
First, I will address the defensive set, because of how blatantly outclassed it is in OU. This part really requires no discussion because of all the flaws this set has, and how it is outclassed by numerous bulky ground SR setters in OU, such as Hippowdon, Garchomp, Landorus-T, and Gliscor. It only offers role compression, but lacks reliable recovery, and doesn't have great defensive typing either.
Next, the offensive set. I'm assuming that this set is the main reason for its rank in OU. It gets a Dark + Ground STAB combo, which is a pretty decent offensive typing. Moxie is also a pretty decent ability allowing it to sweep late game, but there are already numerous late game sweepers. Krookodile is too slow to be able to sweep most teams late game, because of the offensive metagame shift. A scarf set can mitigate this problem somewhat, but being locked into EQ or Crunch isn't the best idea with tons of ground immunities, bulky grounds, and fairies all over. Krook really doesn't perform well against all team archetypes, because it lacks the power to breaks through its checks even with a moxie boost, and is too slow without a scarf to perform well against offensive teams.
Going to step in regarding Krookodile and point out that it isn't actually a bad Pokemon. If you try to use it purely defensively or as a flat-out sweeper with Moxie, then you're using it wrong. Krookodile's best role in OU (and what makes it viable) is as an offensive Stealth Rock user with Intimidate (basically mixing its defensive capabilities with its offensive ones. With Black Glasses on and Intimidate, plus its typing, krookodile can serve as a pretty good offensive check to a decent number of Pokemon in the tier while having access to Stealth Rock. Black Glasses Knock Off and Pursuit are indeed pretty good, as they can hit hard, and Krook can still serve as a pretty decent trapper. It's kinda slow, but it's fast enough to check some things that it should be checking, like Tyranitar, Mew, and Jirachi. It can also check things like Mega Manectric and Raikou, as well as Excadrill while packing a punch. Earthquake itself is a useful STAB as well to smash Heatran, Tyranitar, and Metagross among other relevant threats. With this in mind, it's a pretty good SR setter that can threaten a good number of Pokemon in the tier.
Krook itself is nothing too amazing and of course it competes with other Dark-types like Bisharp, but it can serve as an offensive Rocks setter, and is pretty good at that, so it has enough of a niche to stay in C imo.
Here's pretty much the best way to use Krookodile as of now:
Krookodile @ Dread Plate
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
MLatios talk aside, i wanna talk about a mon that is really a bit underrated and i think it should move up to B-.
I'm talking about Staraptor. This guy hits very hard and even though birdspam is not as good as it was lets say back in early oras Staraptor really is actually somewhat hard to stop. Yes, it falls on its knees from priority, and... yes it is kinda frail... but it is a surprisingly hard hitting mon with its great ability, Reckless. Witness Jolly Staraptor doing 51% with a close combat to Mega Metagross, who hates taking that much damage.
252 Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 130-154 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- 54.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I know this sounds stupid, but steel type mons like Mega Metagross actually can have a bit of trouble walling Staraptor. And it also takes out Metagross if its not mega on the switchin, which really isnt a rare case as Metagross would probably be considered a soft counter to Staraptor. Also, witness "birdspam counters" losing or taking a lot of damage to Bandraptor on switchin. Staraptor can even beat Hippo if it doesnt have Stone Edge, as some prefer Toxic or Roar.
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 213-252 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 116-137 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (with a bit of prior damage, im talking like 15-20% damage, Staraptor kills Skarm on switchin.)
-1 252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 195-231 (69.3 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. (Mega Man can beat Staraptor, but Adamant Scarf takes a gigantic chunk out of him.
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 171-202 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Staraptor hits very hard and literally 2HKO's most of the metagame with Band or it outspeeds and kills threats like Non-scarfed Keldeo, Latios/Latias, Scarf Kyurem with a bit of prior damage, etc. Now, one thing i must say is that Staraptor does have a huge threat, and that threat is obviously Tankchomp. Birdspam isnt meant to take on Tankchomp, but Staraptor really just is a waste of space if Tankchomp is still alive or even on a team. I think Staraptor deserves B- just because it has a surprisingly low amount of switchins on its band set and can kill speedy threats with its scarf set. The problem with Staraptor though is that if you fuck up with a move you will face the consequences and predicting is really key with Raptor, just like it is with every other mon. All in all, B- imo.
Just going to support this because of how stupidly strong Staraptor is even without a band. Like, it has potential to 2 KO Fully Defensive Garchomp.
252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 181-214 (43 - 50.9%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
That's without a band.
Strap on a band and Staraptor 2 KO's the entire metagame basically.
Again, some more calcs
252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raikou: 307-363 (95.6 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 235-277 (55.9 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 294-346 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 242-286 (68.7 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 243-286 (76.1 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hawlucha doesn't have access to instant raw power. It needs to set up SD first before it can put in some work while Staraptor just goes in and does loads of damage the moment it's on the field.
Understandably, Staraptor takes tons of recoil damage from Brave Bird + Double Edge, but TalonFlame does as well and with less power.
Staraptor has trouble with SR, but so does TalonFlame. Both need support, but Staraptor just doesn't have priority. Staraptor's speed is a hindrance, but with that power, it should at least be B-.
This entire Staraptor conversation is really peaking my interest. I remember my Platinum run when it was first released and going "WOW, it can learn Close Combat by Level Up?" Yes. Yes it can. On Smogon, it seems that Staraptor's home has always been BL; nobody has ever used it enough to be officially OU, but nobody wants it down in UU.
I want to go ahead and focus on Staraptor's competition: Talonflame. Everybody knows what Talonflame can do--we've all used it plenty before. I do, however, want to name off the Pros and Cons in comparison to Talonflame.
Pros:
-Staraptor has naturally higher attack, coming in at 120 in comparison to Talonflame's admittedly low 81.
-Staraptor has about the same amount of bulk as Talonflame. Staraptor sits at a fragile 85/70/60 while Talonflame is at a not much better 78/71/69.
-Staraptor's Hidden Ability, Reckless, allows it to hit even harder with its STAB moves: Brave Bird and Double-Edge.
-Though Staraptor has a lousy Normal STAB to "attempt" to compliment the Flying-Type, it does learn Close Combat to somewhat alleviate this. With Close Combat, it
-Staraptor may be weak to Stealth Rock, but it does NOT take 50% from it.
-Somehow, Staraptor has Final Gambit...take that as you will.
Neutral:
-Staraptor and Talonflame both have access to U-Turn, acting has a decent Offensive Pivot.
-Both require similar support (not exactly the same, as Staraptor isn't walled to and from by Heatran). This does not mean they have the same Checks and Counters, but one would want to remove the Rock-Types before allowing either into play.
-Neither one can take a hit to save its life. It hurts because both of them are Recoil Move Dependent.
Cons:
-Staraptor wishes it had better Priority. This is what sets the two apart massively. Talonflame has Gale Wings to give it Priority Tailwind, Roost, and Brave Bird. On top of that, Gale Wings gives Talonflame the ability to be Adamant and still outspeed Positive Nature 110's by a single point. Staraptor requires Jolly, no matter how you look at it, and the Adamant calcs above are sickening to me. Staraptor's ONLY Priority is Quick Attack. It can be used to pick Latios off at about 25%, maybe, but that's about it. Using Priority means you usually have power behind it--see Scizor or Bisharp.
-A lack of Swords Dance. Staraptor's only "boosting move" is Work Up, a Transfer Move. Talonflame has the ability to boost its Offenses to be more impressive while Staraptor is almost forced to be either Choice Band or Choice Scarf.
Surprise:
Double Bird was a thing at one point, much like Gen 3's Double Dragon. There had to be a reason for it.
Overall:
Staraptor's claim to fame is the damage output while having the same bulk, but lower Speed...MUCH lower speed. Talonflame has stronger Priority in general, but hits less in comparison to Staraptor (including Adamant Choice Band Talonflame). Talonflame is walled a bit more, but Staraptor is outsped. Talonflame can boost, but Staraptor has naturally high Attack. The only way to truly know which is better is by comparing the attacks to the top Pokemon of the Viability Thread.
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Mega Altaria
Mega Altaria is a decent little Anti-Meta Pokemon (I personally never liked Altaria) that's known to do just about anything and everything except be naturally fast. How does it tank against these two birds?
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 225-265 (63.5 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO before and after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 159-187 (44.9 - 52.8%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO before Stealth Rock / guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
With Stealth Rock Support, both birds can shred the Blessed Dragon, but neither want to take ANYTHING from it. However, considering that Staraptor doesn't need Stealth Rock to 2HKO it, that says something.
Winner: Staraptor
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Mega Charizard X
Charizard X is the poster child of Physical Offense, with immunity to Will-O-Wisp and great coverage on top of its power. How does it tank these birds?
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 306-360 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 216-255 (64.8 - 76.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Both need the Stealth Rock Support, but Staraptor comes closer to the OHKO without it. Once again, neither one wants to get hit by this monster. On the other hand...
Charizard X is a setup sweeper and will usually Speed Tie with Staraptor until that happens. Talonflame has the speed edge here.
Winner: Talonflame
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Clefable
Oh great, the single best Magic Guard AND Unaware Pokemon. Fantastic. Because this thing can have Magic Guard, Stealth Rock is out of the question in this one.
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 292-345 (74.1 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 207-244 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Okay, so both almost reliably 2HKO this fairy, so now it comes down to "who tanks better".
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Staraptor: 148-175 (47.5 - 56.2%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 66-78 (22.2 - 26.2%) -- 11.9% chance to 4HKO
Because this situation can happen, I'm giving this to Captain Falcon.
Winner: Talonflame
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Unreleased piece of garbage--umm, I mean Hoopa-Unbound
This won't be fun. This is a Pokemon that is so Physically Frail I wouldn't be surprised if both of these Pokemon can OHKO without issue.
252 Atk Choice Band Staraptor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hoopa: 428-508 (117.5 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hoopa: 364-432 (100 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Well, I wasn't far from right (and the Defensive set is being generous). Looks like nobody wins this one.
Winner: Both (because Physical Attackers scare Hoopa).
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Manaphy
This isn't a fun match-up for either. Staraptor speed ties and Talonflame gets hit harder. This won't be an easy one to judge.
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 333-393 (91.2 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO / guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 235-277 (64.3 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO w/w/o Stealth Rock and Leftovers Recovery
Staraptor has the power edge, but not the Speed Edge. On the other hand...
252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Staraptor: 165-195 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 296-350 (99.6 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Neither WANTS to switch into Manaphy, but Staraptor has a slightly better chance without rocks.
Winner: Staraptor.
Results of S-Rank: A Tie. Looks like we're going to Overtime with A+!
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Azumarill
Stop me from guessing, but I think Talonflame is getting hit pretty hard. Azumarill knows Aqua Jet is slower against it, so it will likely use Waterfall.
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 399-469 (109.9 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 282-333 (77.6 - 91.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Though...to be fair...
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 160-189 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 314-372 (105.7 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Winner: Tie. Reasoning: Neither side wants to switch into the other, which can cause dead to whoever switches in.
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Bisharp
I'm stopping it right here and not even throwing calculations down because both of them OHKO this thing to hell.
Winner: Tie.
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Mega Diancie
Talonflame wins due to Steel Wing--no competition.
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Excadrill
Yeah...no. Excadrill is teh deads against both.
Winner: Tie.
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Ferrothorn
Winner: Talonflame (TalonFLAME)
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Garchomp
THIS I'm interested to see, actually.
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 247-292 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 175-207 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
TankChomp does less to Staraptor and with negative priority. On the other hand, Offensive Garchomp wins against Staraptor more, despite taking more damage (but is faster and deals more). Save Staraptor for the Tank, but remove it against everything else.
Winner: Talonflame
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Mega Gyarados
I'm assuming Intimidate will kick in for the sake of "I'm giving Gyarados a break."
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 205-243 (61.9 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 145-172 (43.8 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I know...TECHNICALLY Close Combat is more powerful, but it still does close to the same damage. So both can 2HKO regardless, so we go to a situational example: Gyarados has already mega-evolved. What are the non-intimidated calculations?
252 Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 342-404 (103.3 - 122%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 217-256 (65.5 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
No comparison.
Winner: Staraptor
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Heatran
Winner: Staraptor
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Hippowdon
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 232-274 (55.2 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 165-195 (39.2 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Winner seems obs to me.
Winner: Staraptor
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Keldeo
Winner: Talonflame (Priority Brave Bird)
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Landorus-T
Interesting choice of match-up here. Intimidate in effect.
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 174-205 (45.5 - 53.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 123-145 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 96.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Once again, obs
Winner: Staraptor
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Mega Lopunny
...do I even? Who has Priority Brave Bird?
Winner: Talonflame
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Latios
Winner: Talonflame, due to Priority
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Mega Metagross
Winner: Talonflame (again, TalonFLAME)
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Mega Sableye
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 205-243 (67.4 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 145-172 (47.6 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Winner: Talonflame (ONLY because of Will-O-Wisp Immunity)
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Mega Scizor
Winner: Talonflame (FLAMEtalon)
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Talonflame
Winner: Talonflame (Talonflame Speed Ties with Talonflame and Talonflame outspeeds NOT Talonflame, so Talonflame wins)
Staraptor/Talonflame vs Thundurus
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 444-523 (148.4 - 174.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 313-369 (104.6 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Thundurus is automatically faster than both of them in most given situations, so...
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 400-472 (120.4 - 142.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 283-334 (85.2 - 100.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Tornadus-T doesn't want to switch in, but Talonflame has priority
Winner: Talonflame
Results!
I will not include ties, only actually advantages.
Staraptor: 6
Talonflame: 13
Thundurus: 1
Overall Winner: Talonflame
If you read the hidden text (I know it's a wall), Talonflame GENERALLY has a better match-up against most Pokemon, hence why it's ranked higher. It overall does better than Staraptor in terms of what's higher ranked and Meta. Does that mean Staraptor is outclassed? In those terms, sure, but Staraptor is meant to be a Wallbreaker and nothing more, really, much like how Snorlax's legendary ResTalk is considered "bad" in OU and it should only be used as a Thick Fat Choice Band user, if used at all.
Staraptor should be ranked C+, though, for it is much more powerful than many things below it, but requires quite a bit more support in order to properly work.
Sorry if I wasted everybody's time with this long post and I'm sure I'll be told I'm wrong everywhere because "STURRUPTUR NO USE BAND CHOICE HURRDURR" or something (Disclaimer: only AM can talk to me like this), but oh well. At least I tried explaining why Staraptor is outclassed but should be a solid C+/B-.
Just going to support this because of how stupidly strong Staraptor is even without a band. Like, it has potential to 2 KO Fully Defensive Garchomp.
252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 181-214 (43 - 50.9%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
That's without a band.
Strap on a band and Staraptor 2 KO's the entire metagame basically.
Again, some more calcs
252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raikou: 307-363 (95.6 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 235-277 (55.9 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 294-346 (104.6 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 242-286 (68.7 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 243-286 (76.1 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hawlucha doesn't have access to instant raw power. It needs to set up SD first before it can put in some work while Staraptor just goes in and does loads of damage the moment it's on the field.
Understandably, Staraptor takes tons of recoil damage from Brave Bird + Double Edge, but TalonFlame does as well and with less power.
Staraptor has trouble with SR, but so does TalonFlame. Both need support, but Staraptor just doesn't have priority. Staraptor's speed is a hindrance, but with that power, it should at least be B-.
The comparison to Talonflame is flawed, Talonflame is infinitely better at everything bar raw power.
Talonflame takes nowhere near the amount of recoil from its PRIORITY Brave Bird, and even then it has priority Roost and a far superior defensive typing. There's also the fact that Talonflame isn't pidgeonholed into one role like Raptor, it has so many options it can utilize including Will-O-Wisp to cripple checks. Raptor has Final Gambit which is nice because it also gives momentum in addition to crippling things like Skarmory, but again it kills you. It's not so much as choosing one or the other either, they can fit on the same team and play off birdspam, but that playstyle is pretty outdated now with popular 'mons being natural checks to the playstyle.
The calcs are nice and all, but 2HKOing walls is nothing special, many 'mons can do the same without trading their life in turn.
The problem with Staraptor when we compare it to literally every other notable Flying attacker in the tier is that it is both hard to get into battle and has extremely poor staying power. Talonflame's typing, coupled with bulk investment that it can more than easily afford, allows it to actually switch into powerful mons like Mega Altaria, LO Clefable, and Mega Charizard Y, which easily makes up for the SR weakness. Fighting + Flying coverage isn't anything special either, as both Mega Pinsir and Hawlucha possess them, and can function as good wincons by SDing up, blitz past their foes with priority / Unburden, and sweep for game (Hawlucha being much more of a YOLO choice than MPinsir).
Every time I see a Staraptor (painstakingly) enter battle, it use a grand total of one attack before it is forced out again. It doesn't matter what kind of Raptor it is: Scarf, Band, LO...all Raptors will get forced out after one attack against a half-decent team. Coupled with the recoil Raptor takes, the SR weakness, the mediocre defensive typing, and poor bulk, Staraptor usually ends up throwing out a mere 2-3 attacks par game, which equates to low survivability and pathetic staying power, which translates into mediocre presence. The sheer decline of CB Talon compared to early XY (where BirdSpam was most popular) has shown that hit-and-run Brave Bird mons are definitely not the way to go in this meta, and when you consider this is Staraptor's sole niche, this doesn't spell good news for Raptor. Hell, I believe even Honchkrow fares better than Staraptor as a Flying-type holepuncher in the meta, because at the very least it can adapt to TankChomps with Icy Wind, or Skarmory / Klefki with Heat Wave. Oh, and both Moxie and STAB Sucker Punch grant Honchkrow more snowballing potential (aka doesn't get forced out nearly as often) than Raptor, and survivability / staying power is practically the name of the game for Flying mons right now.
The comparison to Talonflame is flawed, Talonflame is infinitely better at everything bar raw power.
Talonflame takes nowhere near the amount of recoil from its PRIORITY Brave Bird, and even then it has priority Roost and a far superior defensive typing. There's also the fact that Talonflame isn't pidgeonholed into one role like Raptor, it has so many options it can utilize including Will-O-Wisp to cripple checks. Raptor has Final Gambit which is nice because it also gives momentum in addition to crippling things like Skarmory, but again it kills you. It's not so much as choosing one or the other either, they can fit on the same team and play off birdspam, but that playstyle is pretty outdated now with popular 'mons being natural checks to the playstyle.
The calcs are nice and all, but 2HKOing walls is nothing special, many 'mons can do the same without trading their life in turn.
Even so, Banded Talonflame isn't really used as a wallbreaker rather a revenge killer. That said Banded Talonflame still can run Will-O-Wisp giving it more utility.
By the way great point, wanna nom Honchkrow to C-. While its slow, very few Balance cores are able to survive its Mixed LO set, and once it gets a kill it can easily snowball out of control with STAB Sucker Punch. With access to Heat Wave, BB, Sucker Punch as well as Icy Wind and other good attacks, and usable mixed offenses, it serves as a great wallbreaker. Other than the fact that it has low survivability, it can also utilize Sub or Roost on switches like Kyurem-B. While it isn't very good, I think its a tier above most of the D mons, and is more similar to the Nidos who recently rose.
I would actually like to nom Mega Ampharos for B- rank (idk if this has been mentioned or not, so sorry if it has). Albeit it's slow, it has the bulk to take a few neutral hits and get off a slow volt-switch, giving your team momentum to set up and potentially win or to get rid of hazards etc. The Rest-Talk set coupled with its unique typing allows me to pivot into pokemon such as choice locked Keldeo, Talonflame and flying types in general (except for Mega-Pinsir and Gyarados with EQ), manaphy without Ice Beam (which I have noticed has become less common, they're using psychic or HP Fire more to smack mega venusaur and ferrothorn/scizor, respectively), and chansey to absorb status moves which it can rest off. It can also run an agility set to capitalize on its offensive presence, with thunderbolt, Dragon Pulse, and HP Ice, which I feel is nice as well, but the rest talk set is better as it can pivot into mons better.
Edit: S/O to Flygonial for saying this, but this thing is one of if not the best counter to torn-t, which has become really common (I love using it as well).
---> C+
Hi, just dropping by to say that Mega Houndoom should drop down a rank to C+. It has a bunch of common checks to the point where it's tough to find a balanced or stall build that Mega Doom really gives trouble. I think it rose to B- around the time Sableye stall was big (or was it B then? idk but doesn't matter too much) and that kind of stall isn't too big anymore. Even if you forgo Taunt for WoW there's still a large percentage of checks that dgf about getting burned. I mean even something like Torn-T could handle Mega Doom in a pinch. Add in the fact that people are more aware of Dark resists due to Hoopa-U's presence and I think Houndoom is just worse off in the current meta. I also think that it is much more along the lines of Pidgeot or Ampharos in terms of viability, if not worse. Sunny Day+Solarbeam sets aren't that bad tho they can lure some stuff.
Jumping on the Crobat to D hype train. While Crobat has less of a defined niche than other mons in D like Emboar or Honchkrow, it's still a solid pokemon. Poison/Flying is a good defensive typing, having three 4x resists and an immunity to ground. Unfortunately it gives him weaknesses to common moves like stone edge, ice beam, and volt switch. His stats are his biggest selling point though. 85/80/80 bulk isn't great, but it's pretty solid even if you don't invest heavily into it. His 130 speed stat is his best attribute, allowing you to outrun anything from neutral altaria at +1 to base 110 mons (This is the lowest speed tier you should ever hit with bat). He has a great movepool for a support mon, with Toxic, Defog, Roost, Superfang, U-turn, Haze, and Tailwind as options.
He does suffer from pretty bad 4MSS though. Brave Bird and Taunt are mandatory, which leaves only two open move slots. He wants Roost for longevity, U-turn for momentum, Defog to clear hazards, and Toxic to wear down walls like Hippo or Garchomp. He would even like to run cross poison to check Mega Alt more effectively.
Crobat is my favorite pokemon (if i were biased in this nomination, i'd be asking for C+ lol) so I've used him a ton in OU. He definitely fits in with the other D mons in the rankings.
