Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings (Under Construction)

[Deej Dy]

Muk still has a small niche of being a better Lilligant/Pyroar (or special attacker that isn't psychic) check than Skuntank with its impressive special bulk. It can also very easily spread status with it's Poison touch+Poison jab combo.
I think unranking it way too harsh and I think that keeping it C- or perhaps dropping it to D would be more appropriate.

It's not great, it never has been, but I don't think Skuntank really takes over and outclasses all of Muk's roles besides maybe absorbing T Spikes and taking special Grass attacks.

 

[Brawlfest]

D rank or making an E-rank for Pokemon that are NU by usage but should not be used on serious teams, but im not sure if Muk is /that/ bad. I used to like Muk but its almost always dead weight nowadays

tbh I think muk is C- to C at worst it isn't terrible it is just outclassed. It plays fine if you actually use it. It has great bulk, mono-poison is a pretty good typing in NU, its offensive presence is pretty unexpected and it spreads poison like insane. I just feel like when i'm looking for a poison it never comes to mind, but I don't think its actaully terribad.

 

[Punchshroom]

tbh I think muk is C- to C at worst it isn't terrible it is just outclassed. It plays fine if you actually use it. It has great bulk, mono-poison is a pretty good typing in NU, its offensive presence is pretty unexpected and it spreads poison like insane. I just feel like when i'm looking for a poison it never comes to mind, but I don't think its actaully terribad.

That's the kind of logic one would justify using something like Heatmor; usable on its own, but is easier to prep for than its brethren and has little / no reason to be used over them.

Even Seviper deserves to be ranked higher than Muk for all I care

 

[Kiyo]

these are still the viability rankings right? like i get the whole "outclassed by such and such" argument, but if the mon still works how is it any less "viable" because something else does it better. in regards to what punch said, yeah theres little reason to use heatmor over other flash fire users or fire types in general. but how is the argument that it works on its own a bad one? isnt that what determines a mons level of viability, how well it works? i think that this is a fundamental problem with viability rankings in general, the OP uses terms like 'eclipsed' and 'outclassed' but again, this doesnt affect a mons ability to work successfully. i guess what im trying to say is that I think if we want to rank mons in this way this thread should be called the usability or practicality rankings or some shit

being viable and being the best option are two different things, if we want to do the former i think we should retool the system. if we want to do the latter we need to redefine and possibly add more "ranks"

maybe im way off base, maybe im being too technical, maybe i just really hate the viability rankings and finally cracked, who knows???

edit: why dont we just call this power rankings, i feel like that fixes my issues with the technicalities or w.e

edit2: DISJUNCTION AND I ARE TALKING ABOUT THIS ON SKYPE AND IT HURTS MY BRAIN, JUST CHANGE THE NAME TO POWER RANKINGS IMO THATS WHAT THEY REALLY ARE ANYWAYS. THAT WAY YOU CAN USE MAGMORTAR BEING BETTER THAN HEATMOR STRAIGHT UP AS A REASON FOR HEATMOR TO BE RANKED LOWER.

edit3: YEP MY HEAD IS GONNA EXPLODE MAYBE I'LL RETHINK THIS TOMORROW WHEN THE DUST SETTLES

 

[Machineae]

That's the kind of logic one would justify using something like Heatmor; usable on its own, but is easier to prep for than its brethren and has little / no reason to be used over them.

Even Seviper deserves to be ranked higher than Muk for all I care

Not discounting your opinion at all but could you provide some I guess incentive to raise Seviper? Seviper has great coverage for a poison type- flamethrower for steels, GD for ground/rock/water but how often can it actually use its moves? It's not very bulky and rather slow (although outspeeding Don & other slower threats is v nice) so against more offensive teams it seems like dead weight. At least with Muk you can live through some strong neutral attacks where as I can't see Seviper taking much at all.

Ofc you're only pushing Sev to be above Muk which is really low anyways, so maybe even with all those flaws it can still be ranked up? Idk, I'm not for or against it, just odd seeing Seviper get any sort of spotlight.

 

[Punchshroom]

Not discounting your opinion at all but could you provide some I guess incentive to raise Seviper? Seviper has great coverage for a poison type- flamethrower for steels, GD for ground/rock/water but how often can it actually use its moves? It's not very bulky and rather slow (although outspeeding Don & other slower threats is v nice) so against more offensive teams it seems like dead weight. At least with Muk you can live through some strong neutral attacks where as I can't see Seviper taking much at all.

Ofc you're only pushing Sev to be above Muk which is really low anyways, so maybe even with all those flaws it can still be ranked up? Idk, I'm not for or against it, just odd seeing Seviper get any sort of spotlight.

I said Seviper deserves to get ranked higher than Muk. I never explicitly stated that it must be ranked at all, though that would be preferable should Muk be left where it is. I find that even against offensive teams which Muk supposedly does better against, Muk can barely switch into anything bar like Lilligant and comfortably win 1v1, and its poor Speed, low Defense, and more importantly unimpressive coverage means it gets forced out too easily, especially when Rhydon is a popular bulky mon that can be found on offense. Compare that with Seviper which at least does far more capably against its favored matchup (slower, bulkier balance). I mean if I'd be more than willing to agree to drop Muk to D Rank if you think unranking it isn't the way to go since it is still NU and whatnot.

Kiyo
Maybe it's just me getting desensitized from seeing how the other Viability Rankings do their shit, especially OU's Viability Ranking thread where people tried to nominate mons like freaking Tauros and Swellow, yet I get that the higher tiers have to draw a line somewhere since the D Ranks can get cluttered with far more niche mons that it needs to. Since a good majority of PU mons are decently / perfectly viable in NU, there is a notable bit of "leniency" when it comes to ranking. However, following the general structure of Viability Ranking threads as a whole, whenever I assess a Pokemon's viability I find it just as important to compare its competition instead of just looking at its raw qualities. Cacturne is a good example of this: it was like a solid A Rank mon before the latest shifts because hey, its dual STAB coverage was kickass, it has strong mixed stats, and its priority stings like a bitch. But hey, along came Shiftry which is offensively superior to Cacturne on nearly all fronts, which made it even more urgent for people to prep for its coverage; that was enough to make Cacturne less successful, aka less viable than before. The terms "eclipsed", "outclassed", and "opportunity cost" aren't just fancy words to throw out; they do significantly impact how successful a Pokemon is to a team.

Sure, if Pokemon worked in a vacuum (like, i dunno, Random Battle / Challenge Cup) where people can't even account for teambuilding, then yeah a Pokemon's raw viability can be assessed. However, these are tiers, where the greater threats can be easily identified from the lesser threats, where the dominant ones gain the edge in the competition, where preparing against the greater threats means you are more or less insured against the lesser ones, etc., such that the lesser threats are pushed to the wayside and are made less viable. I recently made a case in OU that while Staraptor was fearsome as hell in UU, it just pales in comparison to pretty much every other offensive Flying-type in OU. That's just how viability (in my eyes) work; raw effectiveness alone doesn't constitute viability *cough*Mega Latios*cough*

 

[boltsandbombers]

Gourgeist-S -> B

Gourgeist-XL -> B+
(Why cant these have different sprites ._.)

I want to preface this by saying that I feel Gourgeist is an extremely good defensive Pokemon in this meta, being able to take on important threats such as Tauros, Kangaskhan, Klinklang, Torterra, Fighting types, Rhydon, Barbaracle, and others. The combination of its outstanding natural bulk and utility in Will-O-Wisp and Leech Seed are incredibly useful in many regards. Now, after playing with and seeing both of the viable Gourgeist forms used quite a bit lately, I feel that Gourgeist-XL is the superior choice in this meta. While the significantly higher Speed of Gourgeist-S can often come in handy, the the substantially higher bulk of Gourgeist-XL is more beneficial to a team. Something else to note is that with such a high base defensive and HP, Gourgeist-XL can afford to run some Special Defense investment to better take on Tauros, which Gourgeist-S cannot do [it dies to Zen Headbutt + Fire Blast or 2 Fire Blasts].

 

[Dentricos]

Quite honestly I have to fully agree with kiyo even though I want muk in D.

Something being outclassed shouldn't make it super low in viability. If a pokemon is able to be as good as things in say B-, but there is something in B+ that does everything it does better, by all means let it be B-.

When I was new I saw a bunch of things low viability that gave me problems and it confused the hell out of me. Usually people look at high viability first for things to fit on their team if they do use this page. If they don't see anything they want they will go to lower viability which if I were looking for something to fit a role I would have already found it. I don't believe pokemon should be put in the same viability together when one works that much better then the rest. If something works then let it be where it deserves to be.



On another note I don't think we should base what we do off what everyone else is doing. IE OU. If a change makes sense then it is our best interest as a community to do it. I understand however this will make it a little more confusing for people new to the tier but hey! UU does bans differently! (intentional Hypocrisy )

 

[tmacbalanced]

Something being outclassed shouldn't make it super low in viability. If a pokemon is able to be as good as things in say B-, but there is something in B+ that does everything it does better, by all means let it be B-.

When I was new I saw a bunch of things low viability that gave me problems and it confused the hell out of me. Usually people look at high viability first for things to fit on their team if they do use this page. If they don't see anything they want they will go to lower viability which if I were looking for something to fit a role I would have already found it. I don't believe pokemon should be put in the same viability together when one works that much better then the rest. If something works then let it be where it deserves to be.

So should we all take another look at the viability ranking list? Due to how some pokemon should probably be ranked higher due to this?

 

[Kiyo]

So should we all take another look at the viability ranking list? Due to how some pokemon should probably be ranked higher due to this?

I wouldn't jump the gun on this right away, if you want to support either side of the argument then making a preliminary reranking could be beneficial though.

I don't think there's been enough discussion or general consensus to decide if this is the direction we want to go.

 

[Ares]

I just got back from vacation so expect an update by tomorrow at the latest.

As far as changing the rankings up I think that where current rankings stand they can be much more flexible (which was the whole reason for a new thread). However I don't think that ranking different Pokemon based upon how they do as a single Pokemon is the way to go. A number of things go into how a Pokemon is ranked; how easy is it to fit that Pokemon on a team, how well does it do in general, how does it match up in the meta, how diverse is this Pokemon, how is this Pokemon in practice compared to how well it does on paper, is there another Pokemon that does its role better, is there a specific niche that only this Pokemon can fulfill. After all of those questions are answered you are able to judge where a Pokemon goes in the current meta.

One thing to keep in mind is that the meta is constantly shifting so certain Pokemon might do better or worse in said meta. There are plenty of great examples of this, Pokemon like Mesprit and Hariyama that were a higher rank in previous metas have fallen to lower ranks in this meta because they don't stack up as well for a variety of reasons even though they are both still good pokemon within their own right. The vibe that I'm getting is that Pokemon such as the a fore mentioned would be raised with the system that you're proposing.

One thing that I think people are forgetting is that just because a Pokemon is in B rank does not make that Pokemon bad, even C rank Pokemon aren't bad. Any Pokemon can be good if its put on the right team and that team supports said mon so it can perform the role its best at to its fullest extent. I've seen incredibly good teams with very niche Pokemon, some of which aren't even ranked, perform well and defeat top players because of how good the synergy of the team is. Pretty much what I'm trying to say is that lower ranked Pokemon aren't bad within their own right, they just aren't as good as higher ranked Pokemon.

 

[ryan]

I honestly think Muk is better than Skuntank in this metagame. Pretty much the only thing going for Skuntank over Muk is that it does a better job at handling Psychic-types, but that's hardly a niche at all when Skuntank's existence in the tier limits the usage of Psychic-type Pokemon and Shiftry does the same thing while being much stronger. Muk is the strongest Poison-type Pokemon in the tier and has an easier time breaking through Rhydon, the most common and viable answer to Poison-types in the tier, than any other Poison-type barring special Skuntank, which I don't think is very good either. Even Assault Vest Muk hits than Skuntank against neutral targets.

252+ Atk Muk Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 223-264 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Toxic Plate Muk Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 268-316 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Muk Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 334-394 (94.8 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Muk Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 192-228 (46.3 - 55%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Muk Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 192-228 (54.7 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

*252+ Atk Dread Plate Skuntank Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 165-195 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO

I actually fail to see much of a reason to run Skuntank over Muk as an offensive Poison-type. Skuntank's main niches as a Pokemon over Muk are Defog and Pursuit, but it's not even a good Pursuit trapper because it's so weak and it's not a great Defogger either because it opens a free switch to most Stealth Rock setters upon coming in which can either threaten it or set up Stealth Rock again.

252+ Atk Dread Plate Skuntank Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 264-312 (87.4 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Dread Plate Skuntank Sucker Punch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 218-260 (50.3 - 60%) -- 85.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Muk also actually beats Mega Audino 1v1, whereas Skuntank doesn't always do the same. If it's not running Taunt, any Audino with Wish and Protect outright beats Skuntank 1v1 because Skuntank is actually that weak.

252+ Atk Skuntank Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 140-168 (34.1 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

If you're running special Skuntank which has a better matchup against common switch-ins such as Gurdurr and Rhydon, you now have setup fodder for CM RestTalk Audino.

Basically, I fail to see how Muk is bad right now, how Skuntank is good right now, and how Skuntank outclasses it in any way.

*I used Sucker Punch as a substitute for both Crunch and Pursuit on the switch because they are all 80 Base Power.

 

[Punchshroom]

I honestly think Muk is better than Skuntank in this metagame. Pretty much the only thing going for Skuntank over Muk is that it does a better job at handling Psychic-types, but that's hardly a niche at all when Skuntank's existence in the tier limits the usage of Psychic-type Pokemon and Shiftry does the same thing while being much stronger. Muk is the strongest Poison-type Pokemon in the tier and has an easier time breaking through Rhydon, the most common and viable answer to Poison-types in the tier, than any other Poison-type barring special Skuntank, which I don't think is very good either. Even Assault Vest Muk hits than Skuntank against neutral targets.

Wait hello, we are still talking about one of the Pokemon that helped shape up the entirety of the BW meta right? Skunk causes way more problems to every Psychic mon in the tier than Shiftry does because it can Pursuit trap them and Shiftry still has to fear switching into Signal Beam / U-turn whereas Skuntank more or less does not give a damn; the Pursuit trapping is also a big reason why I didn't even try to nominate Cryogonal back up to its original position. Meanwhile, I legit don't see Muk stopping anything that Skuntank doesn't also stop, or at least still fare reasonably well against. Being the strongest Poison-type in the tier isn't that particularly meaningful either, since you don't need to be the strongest Poison-type in the tier to pressure MAudino (more on that later).

252+ Atk Muk Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 223-264 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Toxic Plate Muk Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 268-316 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Muk Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 334-394 (94.8 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

*252+ Atk Dread Plate Skuntank Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 165-195 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO

I...don't exactly see how this calc is relevant. Yes Muk has more raw power than Skunk, but there's still the matter of its lack of Speed and priority, meaning it doesn't get to follow up its attack. Are you trying to show that Kangaskhan cannot switch into Muk? If that is the case, then Kanga is also on pretty shaky ground against Skuntank should it switch into a Poison Jab or Crunch so I don't see what you're trying to prove here.

0 SpA Muk Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 192-228 (46.3 - 55%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Muk Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 192-228 (54.7 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What even is that calc? Do you mean this?

0 SpA Muk Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 132-156 (31.8 - 37.6%) -- 84.4% chance to 3HKO

Because that is woefully unimpressive. The damage against offensive Rhydon is also unspectacular since Muk will just get outsped, meaning you need to predict Rhydon's switch-in a second time in order to finish it off. At that point, I'd rather use offensive Seed Bomb Garbodor which outspeeds offensive Rhydon and deals more damage to defensive Rhydon. Hell, Garbodor also gets Giga Drain if you so fancy that.

252+ Atk Garbodor Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 180-212 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Garbodor Seed Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 180-212 (51.1 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I actually fail to see much of a reason to run Skuntank over Muk as an offensive Poison-type.

I compared Skunk to Muk as a bulky Poison-type with the special bulk to stop relevant attackers (of which Skunk stops more, especially Shiftry). As an offensive Poison-type, the likes of offensive Garbodor, Haunter, Arbok, Seviper, etc. can actually threaten a wide variety of foes thanks to their powerful coverage while still packing respectable power, as opposed to Muk being a one-trick pony with its Poison STAB.

Skuntank's main niches as a Pokemon over Muk are Defog and Pursuit, but it's not even a good Pursuit trapper because it's so weak and it's not a great Defogger either because it opens a free switch to most Stealth Rock setters upon coming in which can either threaten it or set up Stealth Rock again.

It is at this point where I start to doubt your credibility. Who in BW ever claimed Skunk was not a good Pursuit trapper because it isn't an offensive powerhouse? Skunk is a good Pursuit trapper because it shrugs off near everything its Pursuit targets throw at it; the best they have is HP Ground and Wisp, but the former is weak as piss and the latter can be countered with Lum Berry. You don't even need to actually KO your Pursuit targets for the most part if you play your cards right: the Pursuit damage can be enough to render the Psychics unable to switch into your Fighting-types' Knock Offs, regardless of whether it was Colbur Berry or not (since Pursuit will get rid of it). As for Defog Skuntank, it is only awful if you're using a physical variant of Skunk, but specially offensive Skunk with Dark Pulse, HP Grass, and Fire Blast has the ability to threaten a very large number of hazard setters, significantly increasing its Defogging and luring prowess.

252+ Atk Dread Plate Skuntank Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 264-312 (87.4 - 103.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Dread Plate Skuntank Sucker Punch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 218-260 (50.3 - 60%) -- 85.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So you don't OHKO Mesprit all the time, big whoop. It's not like Mesprit can even do much about it (U-turn is literally a lose-lose situation). Musharna is a bit trickier for non-Crunch Skunk to handle but Poison Jab poisons can still be problematic for Musharna, plus Mush is not expected to beat Skunk 1v1 either. Mush will lose if Skunk carries Taunt unless it TWaves Skunk on the switch.

Muk also actually beats Mega Audino 1v1, whereas Skuntank doesn't always do the same. If it's not running Taunt, any Audino with Wish and Protect outright beats Skuntank 1v1 because Skuntank is actually that weak.

252+ Atk Skuntank Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 140-168 (34.1 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

If MAudino is not carrying Heal Bell, Poison Jab poisons will set it back considerably; if it does have Heal Bell, you can just use your boosting sweeper to take care of it or just have Skunk continue to wail away at it. Skunk by no means needs Taunt to beat MAudino 1v1 and, like Muk, is one of the few responses to MAudino that isn't taken out by the lure set, limiting Muk's niches even more.

If you're running special Skuntank which has a better matchup against common switch-ins such as Gurdurr and Rhydon, you now have setup fodder for CM RestTalk Audino.

Wait, if that's what you're looking for in a Poison-type, I'd rather try offensive Garbodor, specially defensive Garbodor (to better check Lilligant like Muk can), Taunt Weezing, and even my fuking Worry Seed Vileplume. Or better yet, just run Taunt on the special Skunk. These are all better solutions than slapping Muk on a team.

All this only convinces me further that Muk has no real niche in this meta. I say put it in D Rank, and unrank the shit out of it if it ever falls to PU.

 

[Ares]

update

Archeops S --> A+
Xatu S --> A+
Magmortar A+ --> S
Rhydon A+ --> S
Mawile A+ --> A
Gurdurr A --> A+
Mesprit A --> A+
Pyroar A --> A+
Rotom A- --> A
Torterra A- --> A
Floatzel B+ --> A-
Piloswine B+ --> A-
Beheeyem B --> B-
Gourgeist-XL B --> B+
Ferroseed B- --> B
Cryogonal B- --> C+
Misdreavus B- --> B
Arbok C+ --> B
Kababra C+ --> B-
Leafeon B- --> C+
Linoone B- --> B
Grumpig C+ --> C
Avalugg C --> C-
Muk C- --> D
Swoobat D --> Unranked
Meowstic-M D --> Unranked

Will finish updating the OP tomorrow

VM me if I missed anything

 

[Evan.]

Magmortar A+ --> S

kiyo is so wise, how was this thing not in S already??

actually why the fuck did you give this guy mods

 

[Disjunction]

Hi, I'm getting ready for college and everything so I don't have time to make a big post, but I'm of the opinion we have over inflation in the C ranks! Big names that I think could drop to much lower ranks/unranked in general are Fraxure, Jumpluff, Mantine, Probopass, Sawsbuck, Servine, Shedinja, Simipour, Dusknoir, Marowak, Kingler, Monferno, and even Ariados. I'm sure there are others, but I think these dropping will suffice because I personally think they are fairly bad right now!

I would have brought this up with council, but I think naming a bunch of names to drop, having people tell me I'm wrong for various reasons, and then argue their points is the best way to go about cleaning up the lower ranks :)

 

[johnjunior12]

Hi, I'm getting ready for college and everything so I don't have time to make a big post, but I'm of the opinion we have over inflation in the C ranks! Big names that I think could drop to much lower ranks/unranked in general are Fraxure, Jumpluff, Mantine, Probopass, Sawsbuck, Servine, Shedinja, Simipour, Dusknoir, Marowak, Kingler, Monferno, and even Ariados. I'm sure there are others, but I think these dropping will suffice because I personally think they are fairly bad right now!

I would have brought the up with council, but I think naming a bunch of names to drop, having people tell me I'm wrong for various reasons, and then argue their points is the easiest way to go about cleaning up the lower ranks :)

i agree with all of this except i think probo should just drop to c-

 

[Orphic]

Hi, I'm getting ready for college and everything so I don't have time to make a big post, but I'm of the opinion we have over inflation in the C ranks! Big names that I think could drop to much lower ranks/unranked in general are Fraxure, Jumpluff, Mantine, Probopass, Sawsbuck, Servine, Shedinja, Simipour, Dusknoir, Marowak, Kingler, Monferno, and even Ariados. I'm sure there are others, but I think these dropping will suffice because I personally think they are fairly bad right now!

I would have brought this up with council, but I think naming a bunch of names to drop, having people tell me I'm wrong for various reasons, and then argue their points is the best way to go about cleaning up the lower ranks :)

Hi disjunction, I agree with everything here except mantine, I believe mantine still has a small niche in this meta as it is a defogger that can avoid spikes, Prinplup, Shiftry and Skuntank our other common defoggers all have this problem, particularly T-Spikes for the likes of Prinplup. Furthermore, Mantine has the benefit of amazing base SpD and a great ability in Water Absorb that lets it act as a great stop to Samurott right now that other water resists like grass types can't handle. While somewhat outclassed by Lanturn, it's ability to dodge ground hits at resist fighting hits does give it some pull in the current meta and there are definitely these benefits to using it, some of my most successful teams right now have Mantine.

EDIT:

i agree with all of this except i think probo should just drop to c-

Hi johnjunior12, can you not just post one line posts please, we welcome your opinion, but would like to see some reasoning behind your decision so that we can take it seriously, thank you :)

 

[Magcargo]

Is there any reason Magmortar moved up to S-Rank? I haven't seen single advocating it to move up.

 

[shiloh]

Fraxure: C+ On The Fence I feel that Fraxure has enough of a niche to remain ranked in C+. The combination of Mold Breaker and Dragon Dance is great, as it is able to put a dent into most defensive teams as Quagsire isn't even an answer to it because of Mold Breaker. This is one I am more on the fence for since it has a tougher matchup against offense as there are no real places for it to set up.

Jumpluff: C+ Disagree I've used Jumpluff a lot since it is one of my favorite mons to use in NU. It still remains in an amazing Speed Tier, and along with Sleep Powder + Great STABs it is almost always able to put in work. It also beats most of the S Tier, as it works as an offensive Fighting Check as well as being able to set up on Defensive Rhydon, while speed tying with Tauros. Also Magmortar isn't even a switch in because +2 252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Magmortar: 291-343 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO, and that becomes guaranteed with Rocks or a Layer of Spikes.

Mantine: C+ Agree As cool as Water Absorb and a Higher SpDef than Peliperr is, I don't think thats enough to keep Mantine at C+. It just becomes overwhelmed way to easily due to the lack of recovery. Also being a Specially Defensive Wall in a more Physically Inclined meta is really bad for it, as it is still almost 2HKOd by CC from Sawk 252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 228 Def Mantine: 159-187 (47.7 - 56.1%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, and it can only switch in once due to its lack of recovery. I could see this going down to C

Probopass: C+ Agree I still don't know why this mon remains to be ranked so high. Yes it is bulky and has a really cool move pool with moves like Volt Switch and Stealth Rock, but aside from that I really don't like it. A 4x Weakness to Fighting / Ground in this meta is really bad for it. Not sure what else to say about how much I really don't like this mon, a lack of recovery and offensive presence just hurts it as well. I wouldn't mind seeing this go down to C-

Sawsbuck: C+ Disagree I've been using Sawsbuck on both Sun / weatherless teams and it has been working really nicely. After it sets up an SD there are no real solid answers aside from a few mons like Tangela or Gourgeist. If this does end up dropping then a drop of Victreebel should also happen since on sun teams Victree is a bit better Sawsbuck is still able to be used outside of Sun.

Servine: C+ Agree Yeah Servine isn't that great, the Eviolite set is slow and has little offensive presence even at +2 since it only has Leaf Storm and whatever weak Hidden Power it wants to run. Its walled by most Posion / Grass Types, as +2 HP Fire still isn't doing that much to them. I can also see a drop to C for Servine.

Shedinja: C+ Agree After this was brought up a few days ago I talked to Kiyo about it and he convinced me that it probably should drop. It just isn't that great in the current meta and a drop to C or C- is probably fine for Sheddy.

Simipour: C+ Agree Either than Speed + Taunt really no reason to use this over Samurott, and if i really wanted a special water type I would use Floatzel as its in a much better speed tier that allows it to outspeed stuff like Archeops, Tauros, Adamant +2 Rhydon, and a bunch of other mons Simipour misses out on. A drop to C would be fine.

Dusknoir: C Agree Dusknoir is a cool mon and all, but it just isn't that great. While CB does hit really hard and its a cool SpinBlocker, there are just so many downsides to it. For one it still has the unfortunate weakness to Dark which most spinners in the tier carry. It also lacks a good STAB, as the most common STAB it runs is Shadow Sneak which doesn't really hit that hard even with a Choice Band. This going down to C- should be fine.

Marowak: C On the Fence Yeah in a meta where everyone is preparing for Rhydon, Marowak just isn't as good. On one side its slow, has low defenses and nothing outside of raw power over Rhydon. However it just hits so much harder, and it outpaces most things that creep Rhydon like Lanturn. I think for that reason I am leaning more towards keeping it in C, but I wouldn't be opposed to seeing it in C-

Kingler: C- Agree Yeah this mon is just shit in general, and its outclassed by most other water types. Drop it to D or Unrank it

Monferno: C- Agree Yeah this is a mon that was good in the fire meta that still stuck around on the VR, I would say straight up Unrank it.

Ariados: D Agree Sticky Web is already niche enough, and if you really need a team with Sticky Web + T-Spikes you should re evaluate your team or just run a toxic spiker along with Leaveanny / Kricketune. Unrank it.

tldr

Fraxure Leaning towards C
Jumpluff Stay the Same
Mantine Down to C
Probopass Down to C-
Sawsbuck Stay the Same
Servine Down to C
Shedinja Down to C or C-
Simipour Down to C
Dusknoir Drop to C-
Marowak Leaning towards staying the same
Kingler Down to D or Unrank
Monferno Unrank
Ariados Unrank

I'm not the best at typing out what I mean 100% of the time, so if there is something wrong with what I said just reply

 

[Aladyyn]

Could I get some reasoning for Archeops dropping? I haven't seen any discussion on it and I'm quite confused.

 

[Realistic Waters]

Can I just say that this thing is a little overrated, What's it doing at the same rank as it's evolution Mismagius? The only reason to use this thing over Mismagius is for a defensive set which it still faces competition from. It's bulkier but at the same time it's reliant on Eviolite and can't use colbur berry or leftovers, it still has a hard checking stuff because common physical attackers have strong stabs or knock off coverage and it's usually not able to outspeed these because it's slower speed stat.

don't have much to say on this thing but it should have never gone past A+. AV sets aren't even that fantastic which is what everyone seems to using for it and it really misses out on many OHKO's and 2HKO's. It's also held back on on it's speed so it struggles against more offensive teams. It dislikes common physical priority moves too like constant Fake outs, Aqua Jets from Kabutops and Samurott and strong sucker punches and usually requires stealth rock and spikes support if you want to keep this around on the field for long. It's still a very good wallbreaker that destroys most balanced and defensive teams but I don't think it has the qualities of the S rank description.

I feel Archeops still performs well in the current meta. A huge increase in Rhydon usage hasn't made this thing any worse. It's able to adapt, Aqua Tail is a very cool option 2HKO'ing all Rhydon sets and even so EQ still does a chunk. Stone Edge handles Rotom forms are very good options in the current meta, Defog sets are still fine, as it handles a lot of hazards setters thanks to good match up and forced switches, 110 speed is an amazing place to be at and it's still relatively strong even with no attack investment so bulky chops is a good option. It's just a great addition to any balanced or offensive team. Would've like it kept in S rank.

Would've expected this thing to drop more than rise. Kadabra really struggles in a meta full of Priority, momentum and pursuit trappers. 105 speed is fast, but it's still a middling place to be at being outspeed by Pyroar and Liepard etc. It's still a nice blanket check to offensive threats because of Magic Guard and Focus sash but I don't necessarily agree with it's rising.

Also wanted to bring up my lapras nomination again, idk if you guys missed it or don't agree with me but I'll post it again here

 

[Punchshroom]

update

Archeops S --> A+
Magmortar A+ --> S

Mesprit A --> A+

I've no idea why this happened: Mortar seems a bit too slow, physically frail (aka priority weak), and hazard weak to be on the S side (at least Sawk shrugs off hazards and resists Sucker Punch), while Archeops can still easily adapt even with the increase in Rhydon, tho I guess the increase in Sucker Punchers can also annoy it (which still doesn't justify the Mortar raise @_@). Mesprit is a bit on the iffy side for me what with Skunk making mincemeat / a liability out of it but being the closest thing to a Uxie replacement I guess I can get behind this. The rest is fine with me. Also Montsegur you didn't add Muk -> D in ur update

Fraxure, Jumpluff, Mantine, Probopass, Sawsbuck, Servine, Shedinja, Simipour, Dusknoir, Marowak, Kingler, Monferno, and even Ariados. I'm sure there are others, but I think these dropping will suffice because I personally think they are fairly bad right now!

: No strong opinion on this, but I feel the mediocre Speed and barely passable bulk (with Eviolite) greatly limit Fraxure's potential. DD Frax realistically gets one boost at most, but +1 DClaw isn't strong enough to even OHKO Sawk and not going Jolly means +1 Frax doesn't outspeed Archeops, Tauros, Floatzel, & Swellow. This prompts DD Frax to use Outrage, which prompts the removal of checks / counters like MAudino, Klinklang, Mawile, and Ferroseed, some of which aren't the easiest things to get rid of. CB Frax still faces issues with those mons, and while it fares better against defensive teams its lack of Eviolite means it gets dropped by offensive teams fairly quickly, especially if it is locked in by Outrage.

: The abundance / increase in Rock-, Ground-, Grass-, and Water-types in this meta means that Jumpluff does not have a hard time in this meta. Its access to good dual STABs and a boosting move make it a respectable offensive threat, while its Speed and disruptive movepool (Sleep Powder, Encore, Memento, even Synthesis) mean that even hard counters want to watch their step. If anything Jumpluff warrants a rise more than a drop, maybe even to B.

: It has always been fairly mediocre; Lanturn not only typically outperforms Mantine but also happens to make Mantine itself a liability. The SR weakness + no recovery doesn't help matters, which also diminishes its Defog advantage. Wouldn't mind seeing this drop.

: This thing is pretty much solely dependant on the viability and frequency of the other Steel-types (that it can trap) in the tier, and even then Probopass needs to be specifically tailored both in EVs and moveset to handle the Steels, to the point where it sacrifices its matchups against nearly everything else. This is a Steel-type that is typically on the losing end against Mega Audino as well as a Rock-type that has no hope of stopping Tauros and Archeops; at that point you'd just want to run some alternate wincon that sets up on Steels rather than using this Steel trapper that opens up so many defensive holes in your team. Probopass does have a slow Volt Switch but just about the only mons it can pull off the Slow Volt Switch on in this meta would be Psychic-types, at that point you'd gain way more momentum by having Skunk Pursuit them. Drop this, and wouldn't mind unranking.

: This mon is still nice to use on Sun teams, but the arrival of Shiftry means that Sawsbuck now has significant competition as the main physical holepuncher of Sun teams. Its neutral coverage isn't too shabby but is far outclassed by Shiftry's. Its Speed does allow it to check Lilligant but Jumpluff does that better while bringing more defensive and supportive utility, as well as more Speed in general outside of Sun. Its main role is a Chlorophyll sweeper but it is less useful on Sun than Victreebel is so it can warrant a slight drop imo.

: No solid opinion on this. Its main roles would be Sticky Web as a Magic Bounce deterrent (allowing it to outspeed opponents regardless of where the Web lands) and as a Scarfer I guess, plus it still has that steamrolling potential going for it, especially with the increase in Waters, Grounds, and Rocks, and no frail ass Mawile is gonna stop it. Servine does however suffer from the increase in bulky Poisons like Vileplume, Weezing, and Vileplume, with the arrival of Skuntank forcing it to decide its Hidden Power of choice carefully.

: The Baton Pass set can serve as a hilariously effective and unbelievable annoyance against certain team structures, however I just don't feel it is particularly worth the effort required to maintain this fun pivoting method. Sheddy, as you know, requires strict entry hazard control, which means Xatu + some sort of Defogger to help keep Sheddy going. This means there are less slots for teammates that can really take advantage of Shedinja's pivoting. There is also the risk of things like Rocky Helmet Garbodor, Snow Warning Aurorus, Pursuit Skuntank, and god forbid well-timed double switching (assuming Sheddy Baton Passes out of something it hard walls and wants to come back in, which is when you make your switch) that can force the Sheddy user to play very carefully to avoid blowing their advantage and losing a Pokemon due to one misplay. There is also the obvious fact that Sheddy just doesn't hardwall much mons in this meta. Drop Shedinja a Rank imo.

: While Simipour's ability to potentially break past Lanturn with Nasty Plot (+2 LO Focus Blast deals like 62-73%) is its most appealing trait over Floatzel, the inability to outspeed the likes of Pyroar, Archeops, and Tauros utterly blows and doesn't make up for its fraility. Speaking of which, Simipour's poor bulk makes it difficult to both set up Nasty Plot and keep the sweep going (against most priority). The main Water-type attackers such as Floatzel, Ludicolo, and Samurott are simply way more threatening and effective to consider Simpour for a teamslot a good majority of the time. This can drop a rank, though I wouldn't particularly mind it staying C+.

: Dafuq does this thing even do right now? I was under the impression that the sole reason Dusknoir was ranked was when it was the only spinblocker capable of stopping Cryogonal due to its bulk and access to Pursuit. That was when Cryogonal was actually a significant part of the anti-hazard meta, but with the meta trends being so unfriendly to Cryo (primarily due to another Pursuit trapper in Skuntank making Cryo easy pickings), I just don't see what Dusknoir has to offer anymore, as its moves are certainly not strong enough to be of any offensive merit even if Golurk didn't exist. I say to unrank this.

While on the subject of Dusknoir:

: Gourgeist-Super does everything it wants to do, but better thanks to Synthesis (reliable recovery) and Leech Seed + Foul Play (offensive presence / not complete setup fodder), plus Gourgeist-Super can actually absorb Knock Offs. Yeah Dusclops isn't weak to Fire, Ice, and Flying like Gourgeist-Super is, but that doesn't matter when Dusclops doesn't so much beat attackers like Magmortar, Pyroar, Aurorus, Jynx, Swellow, etc., rather lose slower to them. You'd have far better odds by using SuperGeist + something else that actually handles these mons instead of using Dusclops in an attempt to not be weak to those threats; I'd go so far as to say using Dusclops on a team is a sign of bad teambuilding or intention to lose. Unrank this.

: On one hand, Marowak's sheer power lets it do things like OHKO Gourgeist with +2 Knock Off, OHKO Gurdurr and Vileplume with +2 Earthquake, 2HKO Quagsire with Earthquake, and do massive damage to Weezing with +2 Double-Edge (78.4 - 92.5%), which is nothing short of impressive. On the other hand, Marowak possess far less versatility and utility than other offensive Ground-types, such as Rhydon & Torterra (good resists, access to Rock Polish), Sandslash (can spin and still carries Knock Off, can use Sand Rush), and Golurk (extra immunities); most of the Ground-types also have alternate STAB, and can already achieve some, if not most of what Marowak can, plus they are all more useful against offensive teams. Marowak is a good user of Trick Room, but it's not even the go-to Ground-type for TR teams as the other Ground-types can still offer good utility for TR teams, plus there's the fact that Marowak's greatest feats requires setup, which doesn't mesh well with the TR playstyle. Marowak even possesses a curious Knock Off / Trick weakness, as it relies heavily on its item and also means it can fail to punish most Knock Off spammers. Marowak's shortcomings are apparent, but I feel that Marowak's sheer corebreaking potential is still enough to allow it to remain in C Rank, though I wouldn't be opposed to a drop either.

: The lack of Aqua Jet dooms Kingler in so many ways. Kingler needs to sacrifice coverage to fit in Agility if it wants to outspeed foes in order to keep the sweep going (75 Speed is far from spectacular; even Magmortar revenges Kingler), and its horrendous special bulk and lack of physical resists greatly limit its setup opportunities. Kingler needs so much work cut out for it in order to sweep that you might as well just use a Samurott or Barbaracle instead, which are far more self-sufficient; they might even make better immediate attackers than Kingler (yes that goes for Barbaracle as well). Push this to D, if not unrank this.

: Outclassed by Combusken offensively, outclassed by Archeops as a suicide SR + Taunt + Endeavor lead. Why is this here again?

: So Leavanny at least has good offensive matchups, Kricketune can prevent bulky setup sweepers from getting their way, and Ariados does neither, so Ariados needs to really buck up if it even wants to be compared to them as competent Web setters. Unfortunately, unsalvageable Speed and bulk means it would almost never get to use both Sticky Web and Toxic Spikes in a match. The inability to even properly fulfill its main niche means Ariados can go join Masquerain and its Webbing + QuiverPassing self in the unranked section.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Looong post incoming (I'll make it good though)

Ok So I really disagree with a lot of these tier shifts (some mons even going up I'd have sent down and the opposite) and just feel our VR right now are far from how I feel about the current meta.

Before I go on with the noms, I just want to start out with a recent reflexion I had about what all my best teams since gen 5 had in common to explain how I personnaly rate a mon (before I go any further I want to mention I barely ever play full stall and what I'm about to say doesn't apply to full stall). I really noticed long term success to be correlated with a capacity of my team to adapt to the situation. My best teams since forever could pretty much all be summed up by a solid core and some stuff that patches up. Now building a core is an art, but the true beauty of a good team is how you then patch up your weaknesses. It goes beyond simple reflections such as this core is weak to psychic so I'll put a psychic counter. If you want to win consistently, you have to have an emergency plan multiple emergency plans because you may know what most pokemon do idividually but you never know which core you're going to meet nore when you'll get critted and when you do, you want to have the material to pull off some dank plays! Look at kadabra for example, right now skuntank's popularity really hinders him but early gen 5 he was by far the mon I used the most because of how stupidly good he was to get me out of trouble when shit didn't turn out in my favour. If my main core really had a problem with my opponent's team, I could rely on kadabra's sash, power, speed and encore+magic guard to wreck so many strategies and could sacrifice him to take down whatever threat had just critted my counter! Other things I consider very useful to get you out of trouble when things just aren't going your way inlcude priority, sturdy, aftermath, being good at wearing a helmet or sash, being hard to ohko, having infiltrator, encore, taunt... you get the point.
Some mons are fun because of the cool niche they have, but in the end if you want to win a lot on a long term basis without a particular strategy such as stall or weather, you HAVE to get the most out of your 6 slots and have your mons practice "multitasking" as there's just too much to cover and you necessarily will encounter teams that are just too well prepared for your main strategy! I think this capacity to multitask should really be taken more in consideration when ranking a mon, the best example is right below.

Wtf?? A=>B
I don't know if people like this thing so much more than me because I run my shit at 216 speed (for aurorus and rampardos) instead of 211 and never see it do anything because of that, but I really don't feel this thing should be A. Torterra's defensive niche in this meta is just... wrong. It resits edgequake but is weak to megahorn and acrobatics, it resists earth power but is ohko'd by ice beam (claydol), it doesn't resist water and poison which destroys all it's hopes of being a good switch-in against weak scald/sludge bomb users and practically every electric type it tries to stop has an option to 2hko (if not ohko) it. To me it seems nearly incredible a mon with so good defensive stats and a combination of 2 decents defensive typings could end up with such a pitiful defensive niche. Don't go telling me it walls skuntank, it doesn't even do it that well and if there's a reason skuntank is A- instead of S it's exactly because it's stupidly easy to wall.
This mon to me is the pure definition of a mon that can't "multitask" for shit. Putting it on your team practically guarantees you you'll be weak to certan mons right off the bat as it's supposed to be a slow bulky mon but it doesn't wall so many things you'd expect your ground or grass mon to wall.
Offensively, torterra is good, but far from good enough to justify an A rank. It's 3 moves coverage has few resists but it's not particuarily amazing against any standard wall bar quagisre and garbodor. Not only that, but with it's slow speed and all it's weaknesses, if you predict wrong, your opponent could get in a mon that both resits and ohko's terra like claydol or archeops. Note that a mispredicted woodhammer can also hurt terra badly if sent on a ferro or a hlemet garbodor (LO and band being terrible items in such situations). The only real niche I do admit terra has is being one of the best switch-in's to non-spikes ferro since it can take it down safely without getting seeded or hurt by iron barbs (if it's not already locked in WH that is).

B=>A/A-
This thing rose, but clearly not enough, unlike terra, this thing is the epitome of multitasking because it walls soooo much stuff. I had always liked ferro but never had I tried it with protect and now that I have I'm simply bamboozled by love (in zappa's words)! We all now what he does, so let's get right to the point. There aren't much ways of killing ferro without him wrecking havoc in your team: fire, fighting, immunity to leech seed pretty much sums it up. With sawk and primeape practically always being choice locked, a simple protect + ghost type removes them from the list leaving us with a freakishly small list as the only non-fire mons to run fire coverage are lilligant and tauros (which is frankly not very popular despite being S rank). With leech seed protect draining absurd amounts of health, even mons that can deal a solid 50% are bad switch-ins on ferro. In fact leech seed is such a pain to switch-in because even magmortar will lose a quarter of his health to rocks if they're up, another quarter to 2 seed turns considering protect and won't even do that much damage to whatever switchs-in on fblast because leech seed at the end of the turn. All in all, as soon as your opponent has nothing to deal with leech seed, I can guarantee you he's gonna have major problems with this guy.

S=>A+
Mag really belonged in A+, I don't want to extend too much on this because a lot of people already seem to disagree with this rise already, but I do want to put the light on how although he may be a hard hitter, every time he gets a kill, mag lets some very strong mons such as banded sawk (the hardest thing to wall right now) get a free switch, and as sawk ohko's mag with about every move in his arsenal, you're gonna have some major predicts to do if you're not packing granbull or colbur gourgeist.

B=>C+/C
Why did this rise? mismagius is clearly better than misdreavus.

Other things I think we should change but don't really feel like extending this post (feel free to hijack them if you agree)

B-=>B

B-=>C+

B-=>C

I also feel unranking some stuff is a little harsh. I mean D rank is already hell o' low and you really can make a swoobat sweep work.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

: Dafuq does this thing even do right now? I was under the impression that the sole reason Dusknoir was ranked was when it was the only spinblocker capable of stopping Cryogonal due to its bulk and access to Pursuit. That was when Cryogonal was actually a significant part of the anti-hazard meta, but with the meta trends being so unfriendly to Cryo (primarily due to another Pursuit trapper in Skuntank making Cryo easy pickings), I just don't see what Dusknoir has to offer anymore, as its moves are certainly not strong enough to be of any offensive merit even if Golurk didn't exist. I say to unrank this.

woooow you are underestimating this poor mummy here. In my last post, I talked about the concept of multitasking and dusclops does have a couple of things gourgeist doesn't, the main one simply being special defence.
Dusknoir is easy to consider bad simply because he lacks a good stab, but take a closer look and he packs a combo that's near unique in NU: EQ+wow (only mag and torkoal get it and lets not compare them to dusknoir ok?) add up shadow sneak, pain split and it's great sp.d and dusknoir can be quite the pain to kill. I just want to note that no fire right now resists eq and the most common non-fire non-guts switch in on wow is probably lanturn giving a certan value to this combo. Take my last RMT for example http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/holly-offense-1.3536724/ This was before we discovered sneasel was stupidly good but could probably still be considered a good team now and just look at all the potential a dusknoir has against this team especially once ursaring (the least common mon of the team) is dead.

Double post sry hihihi