np: ORAS UU Stage 4 - Go with the Flow

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

Actually, Venomoth didn't drop to RU, it was RU when UU banned it, effectively banning it there as well. Now that it is unbanned from UU, it is now available to use back in RU because it was never actually banned there.

And to make my post not useless, Scolipede could possibly be retested, but I feel people severely downplay its offensive sets. SD+3 Attacks may be a bit risky, but has great coverage and after a single SB outspeeds everything to +1 Haxorus, plus it can almost always get up some Spikes or T-Spikes thanks to its high speed and Focus Sash.

Sorry, I only got into UU after Venomoth was banned. As for Scolipede, I think it's still broken even with the Baton Pass nerf. It's Attack stat is way too fucking high, and Swords Dance makes it even more OP. It also still has Speed Boost, making its already high Speed even higher. There is basically no point in retesting Scolipede.
Also, there's an elephant in the room, and it's name is MEGA SWAMPERT!

 

[DiscoDucky]

Sorry, I only got into UU after Venomoth was banned. As for Scolipede, I think it's still broken even with the Baton Pass nerf. It's Attack stat is way too fucking high, and Swords Dance makes it even more OP. It also still has Speed Boost, making its already high Speed even higher. There is basically no point in retesting Scolipede.
Also, there's an elephant in the room, and it's name is MEGA SWAMPERT!

Mega Swampert is a mud fish.

 

[Nightingales]

Mega Swampert is a mud fish.

Mud fish in the room?

 

[Tymano]

Also, there's an elephant in the room, and it's name is MEGA SWAMPERT!

I really don't think Swampert is the elephant in the room, especially since we've had it since the beginning of ORAS, and even though it is really good in the meta, it isn't "broken."
What is kind of a bigger mon for the tier is the fact that at the beginning of September, were getting Hoopa. I don't think it will be broken, but it will be a very powerful wall/stall breaker that, as far as I can tell by using an AoA set like this

set

Hoopa @ Life Orb
Ability: Magician
EVs: 72 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- filler

has no counters on stall as many stall mons are 2hko'ed or ohko'ed with its dual stabs, or its really nice coverage, which includes things like Tbolt, Eball/grass knot, nasty plot, knock off, and even destiny bond, which makes it an excellent stall breaker which can break most of the tiers defensive mons.

calcs vs walls

vs suicune
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 168-199 (41.5 - 49.2%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
if running tbolt
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 252-299 (62.3 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

vs cress
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 304-359 (68.4 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

vs crobat
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 60 Def Crobat: 424-502 (113.6 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs Empoleon
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 270-320 (72.7 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

vs florges
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 195-230 (54.1 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

vs nidoqueen
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Nidoqueen: 304-359 (79.3 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

vs Porygon2
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 190-224 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

vs slowking
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 96+ SpD Slowking: 291-346 (74 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

vs snorlax
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 144 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 270-320 (54.3 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

vs whimsicott
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Whimsicott: 238-281 (73.6 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

vs maggron
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Filter Mega Aggron: 263-310 (76.4 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

vs doublade
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 432-510 (135.4 - 159.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

vs forretress
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Forretress: 285-335 (80.5 - 94.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

vs mandibuzz
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 177-208 (41.8 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
if running tbolt
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 265-315 (62.6 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

vs swampert
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 208-246 (51.8 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

and this is just from the A ranks.

 

[Krubby]

Sorry, I only got into UU after Venomoth was banned. As for Scolipede, I think it's still broken even with the Baton Pass nerf. It's Attack stat is way too fucking high, and Swords Dance makes it even more OP. It also still has Speed Boost, making its already high Speed even higher. There is basically no point in retesting Scolipede.

Beedrill is not only 1.5 times stronger than Scolipede, its STABs are also 1.5 time stronger. In other words, a poison jab from a +2 scolipede with leftovers will hit half as hard as a poison Jab from M Beedrill. Scolipede is strong but it's not unstoppable.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 147-174 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 16 HP / 4 Def Scolipede: 162-192 (61.1 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 150-177 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 325-383 (76.8 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 16 HP / 4 Def Scolipede: 312-367 (117.7 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 242-285 (64.7 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 187-221 (58 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Doublade Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 16 HP / 4 Def Scolipede: 193-228 (72.8 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 187-220 (50.1 - 58.9%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
80 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 16 HP / 4 Def Scolipede: 284-336 (107.1 - 126.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 16 HP / 4 Def Scolipede: 296-350 (111.6 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Granted, Scolipede gets superpower and rock slide to hurt some of these foes, but still, this is under the condition that someone has successfully set up a swords dance and is using a sweeper set. Add that UU has plenty of priority, sash users and hazards, and Scolipede will have a harder time sweeping. Is Scolipede bad in UU? Hell no, this thing is gonna be a beast? Is it broken? Well, Beedrill isn't and they're very similar pokemon in sweeper roles. Beedrill is MUCH stronger than Scolipede and can take a special attack much more easily while Scolipede can take physical attacks, is unlikely to be revenge killed by scarf users and has superior coverage options.

So I'd say they're about equal sweepers and it depends on what your team needs, which leaves their other capabilities. Scolipede doesn't get u-turn, it can't serve as a pivot half as well as beedrill, but it has the benefit of being a spikes setter. However, Scolipede isn't bulky and so if it's gonna set spikes, it will probably have to serve as a sort of lead, possibly with a sash endeavor set, but definitely not with a SD sweeper set (although SD / Spikes / Megahorn / baton pass could be usable). Meanwhile, Beedrill can use its fast, powerful u-turn to cause trouble and still pull off a sweep later on when threats are removed.

So yeah, Scolipede definitely deserves a retest. It's a powerful mon, but it faces competition from a pokemon with the exact same typing but mostly better stats. If Scolipede doesn't deserve a test, then that basically means that Beedrill should be quickbanned.

 

[YABO]

So we had very few changes in terms of tier shifts - only Gothitelle dropped, and without Shadow Tag it is completely unviable in the tier. However, Smeargle and Venomoth were dropped out of BL following the baton pass nerf. Rules for posting about suspects are the same here as the last one: don't.

UU Open is in full swing and shaking up the tier with something arguably broken is a pretty bad idea.

 

[Sam]

yes please stop

 

[Doctor Swagmoar]

Venomoth

What does it have going for it?

Quiver Dance - One of the best set-up moves in the game. Boosts special attack, special defense, and speed on a single use.

Sleep Powder - Venomoth can disable a Pokemon from doing anything whatsoever as it sets up.

Ability: Tinted Lens - This Pokemon's attacks that are (normally) not very effective on a target deal double damage. Thus nullifying resistance. In other words, Venomoth's main STAB hits everything neutrally and nothing is resistant, except for maybe something like Aggron (unmega'd).

Baton Pass - Venomoth can utilize baton pass in conjuncture with Quiver Dance, Sub, and Sleep Powder.

Theoretically it can support, attack and defend a given team proficiently.

 

[lllg17]

First of all, Krubby that's not how damage works, especially when you add in things like a life orb or adamance. And LilOu there's no need for sarcasm.

252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 214-252 (62.7 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 238-282 (69.7 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is still relatively comparable damage, though this is more realistic for a power standpoint:

0 Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 87-103 (25.5 - 30.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

+2 0 Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 172-204 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 164-194 (48 - 56.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO

Notice the difference? We shouldn't really be comparing these things. They have completely different uses besides the same Stabs and comparable damage when Scoli is at +2
Oh, and quiver dance doesn't work with BP anymore which is why it dropped. Picture a 2xspattack 2xspdef 2xspd Hydreigon... No

 

[Sam]

I said please and I will not be as nice from now on. Cut the suspect posts out.

 

[Shadestep]

I won't talk about Venomoth as it's been discussed more than enough here, and Gothitelle doesn't even matter.

Smeargle though, can still pull out some crazy shit, even after the BP clause.
it's basically guaranteed a set-up/multiple hazards, especially when you use Dark Void > Spore (which I don't think is useful, the accuracy just screws you up too much)
i've come across some very erm.. let's say 'creative' Smeargle sets that I don't even want to talk about. however, Smeargle can Spore + Belly Drum, SD, Agility, etc. , mthen BP-ing into something that takes advantage of a huge power and/or speed boost on your team, making it hard to stop without completely breaking through teams.

scenario's

Smeargle vs. Cobalion

Cobalion leads off vs. Smeargle, sets up rocks / CCs and knock Smeargle down to sash. Smeargle Spores and has 1 guaranteed free turn.
Cobalion sleeps, Smeargle set's up and (unless 1st turn wake) can safely baton pass next turn into something that doesnt mind a CC or Iron Head (e.g. Salamence), or just set up hazards.

Smeargle vs. Krookodile

Krook leads and goes for EQ/Knock Off, knocking you down to your sash. proceed to Spore, and set up on your free turn (as Smeargle is almost always slower than Krookodile.
Krook stays asleep as you set-up hazards/stats, making it easy (unless 1st turn wake) to baton pass/get up hazards freely.)

Smeargle vs. Mamoswine

Pretty much the same thing as vs. Krook. Mamo knocks you down to sash/ sets up rocks, giving you ez pz set-up.

Smeargle vs. Swampert

basically the same thing.

as you can see, Smeargle can basically beat most non-taunt leads. however, taunt Froslass, Krook, M-Aero, Cobalion etc. are pretty much the only things that shut down Smeargle.

in conclusion, Smeargle is a bakc-up poke to use on funky random teams, annoying to face, not really too game breaking but an O.K. addition to the metagame.

 

[Ducem]

Right, so I'm really excited to see Smeargle make an entrance once again. I don't really care about the other two drops (well, I care a bit about Venomoth, but gothitelle isn't worth my time. And that's saying something since it's MY time). Anyways, Smeargle here is something to behold in UU. he has access to every move (as in, every support move...unless you want to run offensive Smeargle. Your choice, I suppose. I'm just not really into self-infliction.) and I really like the variation. You never know what exactly Smeargle is planning. I mean, you can guess, and your guess might hit the mark. But once creative players finally try their hand at Smeargle, it's like a blank canvass. The possibilities for a support set are pretty damn wide. I mean, it isn't quite mew (because it's stats are almost on par with that of Magikarp and Rattata) but in the right situation, Smeargle can do really well in it's own right. Now to it's cons...or con really. It's only the really big one: it's stats. as stated previously in my "joke" before (except...jokes are funny) it's stats suck. Smeargle is either an utter nuisance to the opposing team or a total deadweight. taunt completely destroys the art dog-cow...thing, faster pokes forced my hand to give it a focus sash, if you use a "safe" set with Smeargle because you're boring and lonely and you lack any joy in life, I find it a lot easier to predict and take out, and now that I'm thinking about it, My sets are struggling a bit with 4MSS to the point that I got rid of spore. That being said, Smeargle gave UU the spark of creativity it needed for me to start playing a bit again and I seriously suggest you try it out. If I was forced at gunpoint to give a rank, I'd say B or B+. It's full of moves that can help many teams and annoy the opposing teams to death, but it's flaws are pretty noticeable without proper support.

 

[Nicobar]

I already made a thread for this but was told to post it here, so that's just what I'm going to do.


Hello, I'm Nicobar. I joined this site very recently and I would like to start to contribute to it right away. One thing I noticed right away was that next month has the potential to create changes (for the better or the worse) for the UU metagame as a whole. Whether it's going to be things rising from RU or falling from OU and our pokemon falling to RU or rising to OU, I'm going to give you my personal opinion on what COULD possibly happen. How the community reacts to it will determine if I do another one in October

Zapdos Suspect
Personally the thing I'm most excited about potentially happening is Zapdos being suspected to UU. It has low enough usage that it has the chance to be suspected and will be balanced for the UU metagame as a whole. I am sure that most people will be pleased with this happening and it would be able to go in on Mega Sceptile, Heracross, Shaymin, Vaporeon, Jellicent, Empoleon, Honchkrow, Crobat, Alomomola and I'm sure some other things as well. It can also pack a punch with moves like Volt Switch, Thunderbolt, Heat Wave, Ancient Power, Signal Beam and HP Ice. It also has some supporting moves like Defog, Roost, Tailwind, Roar, Toxic, Thunder Wave and even Substitute. It can be utilized in many different ways including as an offensive special attacker, a defensive pivot, or even as utility, it is good at all of these.
Although Zapdos is a very good pokemon, it has its weaknesses as well. It gets walled by bulky pokemon like Florges, Goodra, Rotom-H, Blissey, Dragalge, and many others I won't include. Zapdos can also get overwhelmed by strong attackers with type advantages like Kyurem, Tyrantrum, Mamoswine, Mega Abomasnow and in some cases even Mega Aggron and Aerodactyl. Overall, I think it's a pokemon with some flaws and some things that make it good but overall I think it should get suspected or even fall straight to UU.


Hoopa To UU
It's pretty obvious now that Hoopa is going to fall to UU, but what role and impact is it going to have on the UU tier? Will it be able to fend for itself? Hoopa as a very good special attack (150) and a very good typing that gives it two weaknesses in Dark and Fairy. It has a very large movepool with attacking moves like Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Dark Pulse, Grass Knot, Signal Beam, Thunderbolt, Psychic, Knock Off, Zen Headbutt, Fire Punch, Energy Ball and Hyperspace Fury. I can imagine that Choice Scarf will be a popular set because of Hoopa's relatively low speed stat (70). It also gets some support moves like Light Screen and Reflect, Taunt, Destiny Bond, Toxic, Thunder Wave, Trick for a Choice Scarf set, Nasty Plot, Calm Mind, and Substitute. These benefit Hoopa's versatility by a large amount. Obviously because of it's large upsides it as some very large faults. Firstly, Hoopa has it's Achilles heel, its defenses. It has horrible defense (60) but very good special defense (130). The problem escalates when it has it's 4x weakness to Dark Type moves, which include Foul Play, Pursuit, Sucker Punch and most importantly, Knock Off, which is used by alot of pokemon. Pokemon that kill it include M-Absol, Toxicroak, Honckrow, the Hitmons, Dugtrio, M-Banette, and anything that is relatively fast with a dark move and/or Sucker Punch. Overall, I think Hoopa in battle will be a hit or miss pokemon in battle. It will either do a severe amount of damage to the opponent or die right away.

Other
There are some other things that could happen that are not as important but still have an effect.
Slowking Going Back To RU:
Low usage, better options in UU, isn't overpowered in RU
Tyrantrum Suspect To UU:
Kills alot of RU, is already very good in UU, would gain more usage in UU
Gothitelle Going To RU:
Is not used at all in UU, might actually get some usage in RU lol
This is what I've seen so far that would catch peoples interest. I would highly appreciate productive criticism and your recommendations of what could happen this September and maybe even October.

And remember...

 

[Schpoonman]

I don't know if you know entirely how suspect tests work. They are used to determine whether or not a Pokemon is broken in a particular tier. Zapdos was never banned from UU, it simply rose to OU due to usage. As such, it cannot be used in UU until it reaches a certain minimum usage, and nothing will change that. The same applies to Tyrantrum. It being suspected in RU wouldn't make it UU, and there's nothing we can do from a policy standpoint that would change that. UU players could use it enough that it would rise to UU, but if it were banned in RU that would just make it BL2, not UU.

Also, some of your information's inaccurate. Hoopa isn't weak to Fairy, but Ghost (Hoopa-U is weak to Fairy). The rest of your post is solid, and I'd like to comment more but I gotta go to work.

Welcome to Smogon, hope you enjoy your stay.

 

[Nicobar]

I don't know if you know entirely how suspect tests work. They are used to determine whether or not a Pokemon is broken in a particular tier. Zapdos was never banned from UU, it simply rose to OU due to usage. As such, it cannot be used in UU until it reaches a certain minimum usage, and nothing will change that. The same applies to Tyrantrum. It being suspected in RU wouldn't make it UU, and there's nothing we can do from a policy standpoint that would change that. UU players could use it enough that it would rise to UU, but if it were banned in RU that would just make it BL2, not UU.

Also, some of your information's inaccurate. Hoopa isn't weak to Fairy, but Ghost (Hoopa-U is weak to Fairy). The rest of your post is solid, and I'd like to comment more but I gotta go to work.

Welcome to Smogon, hope you enjoy your stay.

Thank you for the polite criticism on what I did. I appreciate any help I can get, whether it's from a veteran user like you or a new user like myself. ;]

 

[MegaFlareon]

Zapdos doesn't seem to be dropping this month as it really needs very low usage to drop (like 1.something %). It could happen at October or November though. The dominace of bulky waters are going to take a hit. However, Hoopa is the one to drop this month as it receives enormous competition with its confined form. Your post about Hoopa is great and I think it will be a great addition to the UU metagame with its insane Special Attack and movepool. I think it will fare great against Stall and Balance but struggle against offense. It's also worth noting that Dark types are common in UU which resist its STAB combo and OHKO it all the time.

 

[DiscoDucky]

I don't know if you know entirely how suspect tests work. They are used to determine whether or not a Pokemon is broken in a particular tier. Zapdos was never banned from UU, it simply rose to OU due to usage. As such, it cannot be used in UU until it reaches a certain minimum usage, and nothing will change that. The same applies to Tyrantrum. It being suspected in RU wouldn't make it UU, and there's nothing we can do from a policy standpoint that would change that. UU players could use it enough that it would rise to UU, but if it were banned in RU that would just make it BL2, not UU.

Also, some of your information's inaccurate. Hoopa isn't weak to Fairy, but Ghost (Hoopa-U is weak to Fairy). The rest of your post is solid, and I'd like to comment more but I gotta go to work.

Welcome to Smogon, hope you enjoy your stay.

Which makes it especially weird that shiba sacri' (grats) liked that post.

Anyway, with the reintroduction of smeargle and venomoth, is sleep talk worth running on common Choice Banders (i.e. entei, cross)? Would it preserve momentum or kill momentum because of Sleep Talk's RNG factor?

 

[Nicobar]

Which makes it especially weird that shiba sacri' (grats) liked that post.

Anyway, with the reintroduction of smeargle and venomoth, is sleep talk worth running on common Choice Banders (i.e. entei, cross)? Would it preserve momentum or kill momentum because

My personal opinion is no. If a team doesn't have a sleep user, it wastes a move slot that could be coverage for another pokemon [for example Heracross losing Knock Off loses coverage to Ghost types like Doublade, Cofagrigus, and Jellicent]

 

[Master B8s]

My personal opinion is no. If a team doesn't have a sleep user, it wastes a move slot that could be coverage for another pokemon [for example Heracross losing Knock Off loses coverage to Ghost types like Doublade, Cofagrigus, and Jellicent]

To be fair some Pokemon don't need the forth move slot, whether it be lack of move pool, or it just has sufficient coverage with 3 moves already. Entei would go fine with sleep talk because I think the only moves I've ever seen an Entei click are Sacred Fire, ExtremeSpeed, and bulldoze for the fire resist/ absorbers. I'd personally run sleep talk heracross, seeing how even with knock off it doesn't really beat Doublade 1v1 anyway, I'm not sure about cofagrigus seeing how's it has insane physical bulk t begin with, but I can't calc right now. Also Pokemon that rely on rest talk for recovery, like suicune and mega Ampharos won't mind being asleep as much.

 

[DaSpoofy]

To be fair some Pokemon don't need the forth move slot, whether it be lack of move pool, or it just has sufficient coverage with 3 moves already. Entei would go fine with sleep talk because I think the only moves I've ever seen an Entei click are Sacred Fire, ExtremeSpeed, and bulldoze for the fire resist/ absorbers. I'd personally run sleep talk heracross, seeing how even with knock off it doesn't really beat Doublade 1v1 anyway, I'm not sure about cofagrigus seeing how's it has insane physical bulk t begin with, but I can't calc right now. Also Pokemon that rely on rest talk for recovery, like suicune and mega Ampharos won't mind being asleep as much.

Some Pokemon do not need 4 specific moves to do its job effectively. An example I can think of is gligar. You can run SR, Roost, and EQ. The fourth is usually filler. Filler includes a move that helps the composition of your team. If your team is weak to a certain play-style or a specific move-set of a pokemon, then you compensate for it with that extra slot. I would not waste a move slot on Sleep Talk. Since the sleep nerf, and the absence of realiable sleep status moves, it is pretty situational that you will ever use sleep talk. There are better moves out there to make your team more effective. The only use I see is counter teaming an opponent that likes to use sleep status.

Knock off is great on heracross. You do not have to KO everything at full health. You can get damage or take off eviolite and switch out. Don't keep the mindset that everything is a 1v1. There are many affordable ways to counter sleep. Don't waste a move slot on it.

 

[Nightingales]

Just run a sleep talk abuser. Suicune's a good one, Mega Ampharos is decent, stuff like that.

 

[Nicobar]

You can also run a pokemon with Overcoat like Mandibuzz and Escavilier or run a strong grass type like Shaymin or Roserade.

 

[DiscoDucky]

Sleep Talk is very viable on CB Hera because Sleep status procs Guts, so ×2 resist mons still get nuked pretty hard. My question was more about whether having something like SE or Sleep Talk is more relevant in this meta.

 

[Master B8s]

Some Pokemon do not need 4 specific moves to do its job effectively. An example I can think of is gligar. You can run SR, Roost, and EQ. The fourth is usually filler. Filler includes a move that helps the composition of your team. If your team is weak to a certain play-style or a specific move-set of a pokemon, then you compensate for it with that extra slot. I would not waste a move slot on Sleep Talk. Since the sleep nerf, and the absence of realiable sleep status moves, it is pretty situational that you will ever use sleep talk. There are better moves out there to make your team more effective. The only use I see is counter teaming an opponent that likes to use sleep status.

Knock off is great on heracross. You do not have to KO everything at full health. You can get damage or take off eviolite and switch out. Don't keep the mindset that everything is a 1v1. There are many affordable ways to counter sleep. Don't waste a move slot on it.

I suppose you're right with the heracross post. there also aren't that many common Pokemon in UU that can inflict sleep (I havnt really played the ladder since venomoth came so idk how common it is) maybe crobat but that's gimmicky at best, but yea having a rest talk Pokemon is probably the best way to handle sleep :]

 

[Chronobreak]

I personally would run sleep talk on entei, since the 4th slot is pretty much not needed on entei and allows him to switch on sleep. Unless there is a merit to flare blitz for last move, idk why you wouldnt run sleep talk.