Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings (Under Construction)

[Punchshroom]

woooow you are underestimating this poor mummy here. In my last post, I talked about the concept of multitasking and dusclops does have a couple of things gourgeist doesn't, the main one simply being special defence.

That is literally the only thing Clops has over Gourgeist-Super, but it doesn't put it to good use since it has an unfavorable matchup against a large majority of special attackers in NU, be it getting overwhelmed or being setup fodder.

Dusknoir is easy to consider bad simply because he lacks a good stab, but take a closer look and he packs a combo that's near unique in NU: EQ+wow (only mag and torkoal get it and lets not compare them to dusknoir ok?) add up shadow sneak, pain split and it's great sp.d and dusknoir can be quite the pain to kill. I just want to note that no fire right now resists eq and the most common non-fire non-guts switch in on wow is probably lanturn giving a certan value to this combo.

Dusknoir has way more problems than simply lacking a good STAB (lack of reliable recovery, minimal offensive presence, outclassed by defensive and offensive Ghosts alike). Earthquake coupled with Will-O-Wisp does make switch-ins trickier than usual, but it's not like Fire-types and Lanturn are the only status absorbers in the tier. The likes of Mega Audino, Xatu, RestTalk Malamar, Musharna, Gurdurr, and even stuff like Lilligant can also absorb the Wisp in a pinch (as they would from Gourgeist), and Noir's lack of offensive presence against them still shows.

Take my last RMT for example http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/holly-offense-1.3536724/ This was before we discovered sneasel was stupidly good but could probably still be considered a good team now and just look at all the potential a dusknoir has against this team especially once ursaring (the least common mon of the team) is dead.

Take a look at that team and tell me that Gourgeist-Super doesn't fare just as well, if not better against it.
- You say that Dusknoir can put in work on your team if Ursaring is down (the fact that Ursaring is your Dusknoir switch-in already shows how little offensive presence Dusknoir has [0 Atk Dusknoir Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Ursaring: 91-108 (28.2 - 33.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after toxic damage]).
- Gourgeist-Super can put in work against your team even if Ursaring still stands; all it has to do is just throw out a Leech Seed and work from there, because absolutely none of your Pokemon do enough damage to Gourgeist-Super to 2HKO after Leftovers, not Lanturn, not Ursaring, not even Scyther (unboosted). Ursaring doesn't want to switch in on Leech Seed or a Foul Play (does like 41-48%). Oh, and you cannot stunt Gourgeist-Super's recovery like you can against Dusknoir by sending in a weakened mon against it. Honestly you could make use of Noir's pitiful offensive presence and just have Scyther plow through the burn with +6 Aerial Aces, whereas you cannot even get to +4 before Gourgeist catches on and Foul Plays you. So no, Dusknoir does not gives your team trouble, Gourgeist-Super does.

 

[Jim E. Russler]

Just gonna pop in here and agree that Magmortar should have stayed A+

I've used Magmortar on most of my teams for several months now, and that rise is really confusing to me. Its speed tier, defensive typing and Defense stat are all at least a bit lacking, and Choicing Magmortar is almost never worth it. It also gets torn apart by every hazard.

We also (relatively) recently entered a meta where we got two new useful priority abusers, and Gurdurr became a lot more viable with the shifts too, so Magmortar has to worry about taking more priority moves than before (and its not good at taking them).

If there was ever a time to move Magmortar up, It certainly wouldn't be now. Its fantastic at what it does, but it has enough shortcomings to keep it out of S and I don't think the tier shift was very kind to it.

 

[Mar1onette]

Looong post incoming (I'll make it good though)

Wtf?? A=>B
I don't know if people like this thing so much more than me because I run my shit at 216 speed (for aurorus and rampardos) instead of 211 and never see it do anything because of that, but I really don't feel this thing should be A. Torterra's defensive niche in this meta is just... wrong. It resits edgequake but is weak to megahorn and acrobatics, it resists earth power but is ohko'd by ice beam (claydol), it doesn't resist water and poison which destroys all it's hopes of being a good switch-in against weak scald/sludge bomb users and practically every electric type it tries to stop has an option to 2hko (if not ohko) it. To me it seems nearly incredible a mon with so good defensive stats and a combination of 2 decents defensive typings could end up with such a pitiful defensive niche. Don't go telling me it walls skuntank, it doesn't even do it that well and if there's a reason skuntank is A- instead of S it's exactly because it's stupidly easy to wall.
This mon to me is the pure definition of a mon that can't "multitask" for shit. Putting it on your team practically guarantees you you'll be weak to certan mons right off the bat as it's supposed to be a slow bulky mon but it doesn't wall so many things you'd expect your ground or grass mon to wall.
Offensively, torterra is good, but far from good enough to justify an A rank. It's 3 moves coverage has few resists but it's not particuarily amazing against any standard wall bar quagisre and garbodor. Not only that, but with it's slow speed and all it's weaknesses, if you predict wrong, your opponent could get in a mon that both resits and ohko's terra like claydol or archeops. Note that a mispredicted woodhammer can also hurt terra badly if sent on a ferro or a hlemet garbodor (LO and band being terrible items in such situations). The only real niche I do admit terra has is being one of the best switch-in's to non-spikes ferro since it can take it down safely without getting seeded or hurt by iron barbs (if it's not already locked in WH that is).

B=>C+/C
Why did this rise? mismagius is clearly better than misdreavus.

Torterra- the problem i see here is that your argument on offensive torterra is its "slow speed" and weaknesses, but can't both of these be said about rhydon who is also a "dancing" sweeper? it is even slower than torterra and even more weaknesses than it does, but its still great. also your argument seems to be extremely circumstantial, your using the argument "if they predict this BLANK will happen", i personally don't find this as a valid argument to use because that is dependent on specific events happening for BLANK to happen and if it doesn't happen that way you'll be in a very different situation. BTW what can ferroseed do to torterra? ferroseed is set-up fodder for torterra because what can it do back to torterra to stop it from setting up? and switching a garbodor in on a torterra is also risky because what if the torterra user "predicts" you and goes for EQ instead of wood hammer???? overall im not saying torterra shouldn't drop, i just don't like your reasoning on the offensive torterra of "if they predict this BLANK will happen to torterra" i just personally dislike using predictions as a main argument :[

Misdreavus- Oh and just because Mismagius is "better" than misdreavos doesn't mean they can't be in the same rank since mismagius isn't that good in NU, and that misdreavus is more of a "wall" because of eviolite while mismagius is a special sweeper or Stall Breaker.

 

[Steakburgers]

Why would you unrank probopass? I feel like its being severely underrated just because of "This is a ground and fighting meta"
If I only carried probopass on my teams i'd be super worried, but I don't. It has coverage to hit lanturn, rhydon, can volt switch out of most of its checks, and has great utility moves
Alot of people are still having that issue where they say well i destroy it when i see it so it's gotta be bad mindset
no ones asking this to be a sawk/rhydon destroyer, but for what it does, i'd say its 2nd best behind mespirt
Also Magmortar doesn't deserve S in any way shape or fashion. Its av set is great and its coverage is first class, but this is just me, a mon that's gotta rely on 2 moves that are shown to be sometimes unreliable, and its on most of the sets it runs, doesn't deserve S

 

[Pokedots]

Why would you unrank probopass? I feel like its being severely underrated just because of "This is a ground and fighting meta"
If I only carried probopass on my teams i'd be super worried, but I don't. It has coverage to hit lanturn, rhydon, can volt switch out of most of its checks, and has great utility moves
Alot of people are still having that issue where they say well i destroy it when i see it so it's gotta be bad mindset
no ones asking this to be a sawk/rhydon destroyer, but for what it does, i'd say its 2nd best behind mespirt
Also Magmortar doesn't deserve S in any way shape or fashion. Its av set is great and its coverage is first class, but this is just me, a mon that's gotta rely on 2 moves that are shown to be sometimes unreliable, and its on most of the sets it runs, doesn't deserve S

We're not asking it to be a Sawk/Rhydon check, we're asking it to be a Normal and Archeops check; typically you'd want your Steel/Rock type to check at least some of these, but Probopass actually checks none because of the 4x weakness to Ground and Fighting, making it a liability in teambuilding in the sense that now you have to pack both Probopass and an actual Normal and Archeops check when you could just run Rhydon, Piloswine, or Regirock and check all of these and more. And most Normal and Archeops check don't have particularly good synergy with Probopass, limiting the options even more, and all that Probopass really offers over its fellow Rock and Steel bretherns is a Psychic check, Volt Switch (Mawile also has Baton Pass), and Steel trapping (though it's kinda hard to fit all these roles actually, you want Volt Switch and Stealth Rock, Toxic if you actually want to beat Mush, and Power Gem most likely as a STAB to beat Flying-types, leaving little room for Earth Power) at a pretty significant cost. Also HP Ground Mesprit with Skunk here sucks for it @.@ Overall while Probo definitely has its uses, it's honestly just a really, really niche choice, and should drop

p.s. Musharna+Probo is a really bulky core .___.

 

[Kiyo]

Ok, it seems a lot of people are confused as to why we decided to place Magmortar in S. If you have a different opinion and disagree with it moving up thats another story (there have been several good posts so far and I'd like to continue seeing them), but I see a lot of people saying things like "nothing has changed", "its not that great", etc. which frankly aren't really great arguments. Anyways here are my thoughts on Magmortar rising and why I think it deserves a spot in S.

1. Magmortar's raw power puts it on par with other strong attackers in the S rank, it is extremely difficult to switch into without being 2HKOed.

2. Magmortar's decent based stats coupled with an Assault Vest allow it to check or counter several of the tiers increasingly common weak special attackers such as Aurorus, Cacturne, Haunter, Lilligant, Mega Audino, Mesprit, Misdreavus, Mismagius, Pyroar, Roselia, Rotom, Rotom-S, Swellow, Tangela, Vanilluxe , Vileplume, Vivillon.

3. Magmortar does suffer from a middling speed tier; however, with the number of free switch ins Magmortar gets thanks to its boosted Special Defense, you're often firing off powerful attacks while the opponent is forced to either sack their current Pokemon or Tactical Loop Switch™ into something that fairs better. I would suggest Magmortar does this similarily to the way Sawk threatens OHKOs and forces switches despite its middling Speed stat, Magmortar may not have the raw power of Sawk, as it lacks a boosting item; however, it makes up for this power in its ability to hit anything it desires super effectively. Another point that detracts from arguments about Magmortar's middling Speed tier is that more often than not Magmortar can deal with all of its potential switch-ins with three attacks, freeing up the last moveslot for Flame Charge. Flame Charge allows the speedy Assault Vest spread to outrun even Tauros, which forces the opponent to check Magmortar defensively rather than offensively (barring priority, which I'll get to in a minute)

4. Magmortar has a less than stellar defense stat when you take into account the number of viable priority users in the tier; however they need a free switch to threaten Magmortar with these attacks, and Magmortar can easily switch out or EV to tank these specific attacks in worst case scenarios (Shiftry's Sucker Punch fails to OHKO maximum HP Magmortar after Stealth Rock for example). I really think people are overvaluing the way priority in general deals with Magmortar, most Mach Punch users have very reliable counters that are fairly common in the metagame (i.e. Musharna or Scyther for Gurdurr and Hitmonchan), and the most common Sucker Punch users can simply be switched out of or OHKOed.

5. However another point that I think is undervalued in these viability discussions is how the Pokemon in question affects the users teambuilding strategy (this is something I'll hopefully be addressing more when I discuss our reasoning for dropping Archeops, coming soon™). Magmortar rarely hinders a user by using it, there is very little opportunity cost. Magmortar helps several balanced teams that struggle to break standard defensive cores, it acts as a solid Fire-, Grass-, and Ice-type resist, and is often easy to throw onto any team for these reasons. Magmortar does suffer from a Stealth Rock weakness which can affect its splashability, I would argue that this is less of a concern than it was in past metagames as we are consistently rating Pokemon that prefer Stealth Rock off the field very highly in these rankings (see: Sawk, Archeops, Pyroar, Scyther, Swellow) and with the arrival of new solid hazard removers in Shiftry, Skuntank, and Hitmonchan I would argue its even less of a concern.

So for anyone confused as to why Magmortar rose to S rank, that, in short, is why in my opinion. All of these points can be argued and I think have been very well so far in this thread, but I think the pro-S side was severely underrepresented. Feel free to discuss Magmortar further, I'm interested to see what some more players have to say on the subject.

For anyone wondering about other controversial changes, such as Archeops dropping, Mesprit rising, etc. I'll try to address those in a later post.

 

[Steakburgers]

Ok, it seems a lot of people are confused as to why we decided to place Magmortar in S. If you have a different opinion and disagree with it moving up thats another story (there have been several good posts so far and I'd like to continue seeing them), but I see a lot of people saying things like "nothing has changed", "its not that great", etc. which frankly aren't really great arguments. Anyways here are my thoughts on Magmortar rising and why I think it deserves a spot in S.

1. Magmortar's raw power puts it on par with other strong attackers in the S rank, it is extremely difficult to switch into without being 2HKOed.

2. Magmortar's decent based stats coupled with an Assault Vest allow it to check or counter several of the tiers increasingly common weak special attackers such as Aurorus, Cacturne, Haunter, Lilligant, Mega Audino, Mesprit, Misdreavus, Mismagius, Pyroar, Roselia, Rotom, Rotom-S, Swellow, Tangela, Vanilluxe , Vileplume, Vivillon.

3. Magmortar does suffer from a middling speed tier; however, with the number of free switch ins Magmortar gets thanks to its boosted Special Defense, you're often firing off powerful attacks while the opponent is forced to either sack their current Pokemon or Tactical Loop Switch™ into something that fairs better. I would suggest Magmortar does this similarily to the way Sawk threatens OHKOs and forces switches despite its middling Speed stat, Magmortar may not have the raw power of Sawk, as it lacks a boosting item; however, it makes up for this power in its ability to hit anything it desires super effectively. Another point that detracts from arguments about Magmortar's middling Speed tier is that more often than not Magmortar can deal with all of its potential switch-ins with three attacks, freeing up the last moveslot for Flame Charge. Flame Charge allows the speedy Assault Vest spread to outrun even Tauros, which forces the opponent to check Magmortar defensively rather than offensively (barring priority, which I'll get to in a minute)

4. Magmortar has a less than stellar defense stat when you take into account the number of viable priority users in the tier; however they need a free switch to threaten Magmortar with these attacks, and Magmortar can easily switch out or EV to tank these specific attacks in worst case scenarios (Shiftry's Sucker Punch fails to OHKO maximum HP Magmortar after Stealth Rock for example). I really think people are overvaluing the way priority in general deals with Magmortar, most Mach Punch users have very reliable counters that are fairly common in the metagame (i.e. Musharna or Scyther for Gurdurr and Hitmonchan), and the most common Sucker Punch users can simply be switched out of.

5. However another point that I think is undervalued in these viability discussions is how the Pokemon in question affects the users teambuilding strategy (this is something I'll hopefully be addressing more when I discuss our reasoning for dropping Archeops, coming soon™). Magmortar rarely hinders a user by using it, there is very little opportunity cost. Magmortar helps several balanced teams that struggle to break standard defensive cores, it acts as a solid Fire-, Grass-, and Ice-type resist, and is often easy to throw onto any team for these reasons. Magmortar does suffer from a Stealth Rock weakness which can affect its splashability, I would argue that this is less of a concern than it was in past metagames as we are consistently rating Pokemon that prefer Stealth Rock off the field very highly in these rankings (see: Sawk, Archeops, Pyroar, Scyther, Swellow) and with the arrival of new solid hazard removers in Shiftry, Skuntank, and Hitmonchan I would argue its even less of a concern.

So for anyone confused as to why Magmortar rose to S rank, that, in short, is why in my opinion. All of these points can be argued and I think have been very well so far in this thread, but I think the pro-S side was severely underrepresented. Feel free to discuss Magmortar further, I'm interested to see what some more players have to say on the subject.

For anyone wondering about other controversial changes, such as Archeops dropping, Mesprit rising, etc. I'll try to address those in a later post.

Nice post, but you didn't mention that magmortar kinda has to rely on two moves that are fairly unreliable
Missing fire blast and focus blast have lost me games, and i see no suitable replacement mag on its ass vest sets. You can say well tauros has to run fire blast and rock climb! but it doesn't even need to really run fire blast in the current meta
correct me if im wrong, but fire blast was used to kill ferroseed, which isn't common at all right now. And sure you can use fire blast to help kill vileplume without having to deal with effect spore, but tauros had other options if it wanted to use them
Magmortar does not
I won't deny that its av set has saved my life on occassion, but at the same time its also killed me in the very same battle
S-rank should be kept for mons that aren't such a huge double edged sword imo

 

[Rapture]

None of the S rank mons have to rely on moves that can miss, nope not at all.

 

[Kiyo]

Nice post, but you didn't mention that magmortar kinda has to rely on two moves that are fairly unreliable
Missing fire blast and focus blast have lost me games, and i see no suitable replacement mag on its ass vest sets. You can say well tauros has to run fire blast and rock climb! but it doesn't even need to really run fire blast in the current meta
correct me if im wrong, but fire blast was used to kill ferroseed, which isn't common at all right now. And sure you can use fire blast to help kill vileplume without having to deal with effect spore, but tauros had other options if it wanted to use them
Magmortar does not
I won't deny that its av set has saved my life on occassion, but at the same time its also killed me in the very same battle
S-rank should be kept for mons that aren't such a huge double edged sword imo

The only problem I'm seeing with this argument is that you don't actually lose much by missing your attacks with Magmortar in most situations. Typically you're trying to force switches with Magmortar, like even if you have Magmortar in on Vileplume and predict a Regirock switch in, missing Focus Blast isn't a big deal. Yeah it sucks but I'd hardly call it game changing. In fact thinking about it now, unless your Magmortar is attempting a sweep with a Flame Charge up I don't think theres ever a situation where you need to rely on anything lower than 85% accurate which if you're consistently losing games to says more about how shitty this game is due to luck than anything else.

edit: for the record I think ferroseed is actually really good in this metagame and deserves more usage than it gets. Tauros' Rock Climb is just as inaccurate as Magmortars Fire Blast and Tauros actually needs to hit its attacks becuase it is far more frail than Magmortar and typically looks to check offensive Pokemon rather than threaten out defensive ones.

 

[Punchshroom]

My stance on Magmortar:

The LO set possesses immense wallbreaking capability and offensive presence, but has rather poor defensive presence and longevity due to its reliance on Life Orb, low Defense, and entry hazard weakness. The average Speed doesn't help it either.

The AV set, which is the main set Kiyo is suggesting, has good defensive presence for such an offensive mon, but can face some issues with wallbreaking: bulky targets like Bold Mega Audino, Lanturn, Musharna, Malamar can survive the 2HKO and Mortar needs a lot more prior damage on mons like Garbodor and Gurdurr to threaten the KO in the first place, meaning that AV Mortar doesn't threaten most bulky builds more so than say, Pyroar. AV Mortar also faces significant issues with entry hazards, which can severely impact its tanking ability; you could employ hazard removers to solve this issue, but the ironic part is that the hazard removers can already do well against a substantial amount of what AV Mortar checks while not needing hazard removal themselves, lessening AV Mortar's value. Mortar does have Flame Charge to make up for its Speed, but in order to afford the bulk required to tank the hits it does, it sacrifices enough Speed investment such that its initial Speed puts it below the base 80s, which is a highly important Speed tier atm. Flame Charge sets are also even more prone to priority than usual and can face some coverage issues (going non-HP Grass / Focus Blast is highly ill-advised due to Rhydon, whereas not using EQ means Mortar struggles to break Lanturn and even opposing Fire-types).

In short, Magmortar is still an excellent enough mon to remain A+, but I do feel it has enough shortcomings to keep it from S, such as being hazard weak, not being too difficult to force out, physical fraility, somewhat average initial Speed, and low longevity (no recovery).

For anyone wondering about other controversial changes, such as Archeops dropping

This had better be good.

 

[tmacbalanced]

Tauros actually needs to hit its attacks becuase it is far more frail than Magmortar

On my paper, I'm not too sure about that. Tauros & Magmortar both have the same base HP, Tauros has base 95 defense & Magmortar has base 95 special defense. Also, Tauros has less weaknesses than Magmortar & isn't weak to stealth rocks. Assault Vest would make Magmortar seem bulkier but only if you are using it. And if Magmortar is going for LO, it's taking the 10% sap from Life Orb unlike Tauros thanks to Sheer Force. If you also take a look at how Tauros has immunity to a type while Magmortar does not.
There is a bit more of a difference between the two as Tauros is faster & Magmortar may try to catch up in speed with Flame Charge, it still has to sacrifice a move in return that would seem like a liability as Punchshroom has pointed out.
Magmortar also has very bad checks, such as Sawk is very much a threat in NU & has little switch-ins; if you also take a look at some of the common partners Magmortar shares, you'll notice that Sawk has an answer for most of them: Earthquake for Garbodor & Lanturn (which hits super effectively against Magmortar anyways), & Regirock isn't going to like taking a STAB super effective close combat. Others can easily get worn down by Sawk's immense power, coverage, & hazards. Archeops is a popular pokemon that can also check Magmortar & can give it's team mates a tough time. Magmortar also has a tough time with priority which can be a big issue as it even allows slower pokemon to get the jump on Magmortar. With other pokemon that are fast or that have priority rising up through the ranks, such as Floatzel & Shiftry, this still puts Magmortar in a tough position.
Tauros of course still will have a tough time with these pokes too, but, sometimes it depends.
I tend to think of Tauros as the faster/physical version of Magmortar, which may have been the reason for Magmortar for getting the raise, but, I still don't agree with it due to what I've read & experienced.

 

[g]

can you please use "and" instead of "&" lol? it is so weird sigh :(

anyway while i dont have a strong opinion on magmortar, even thought i am not a fan of the middling speed + SR weakness myself (i recognize the utility in totally shutting down lilligant more than anything) but i perfectly see it being in S and A+ quite to the same degree, nor archeops tho i just find this mon so annoying to account for with offense since i dislike using Rhydon / Regirock on every offensive team (also the threat of aqua tail vs the former is not to be ignored) and i have to rely on outspeeding by running mons such as Floatzel / Zebstrika or Choice Scarf user and priority to weaken it to defeatist i guess to be sure.

especially vouching for most other things sweet jesus said since torterra is quite an unfortunate mon considering how weak it is to common pokemon it is supposed to check (not fearing lanturn as much as a ground is pretty remarkable however) due to its typing especially the rock or ground types that are claydol and archeops but can still hit hard and the excessive number of pokemon faster than it naturally and can take it out easily (pmuch any fire or ice type that is found on a lot of teams). the fact that as a grass type is also very very susceptible to ice-beam and then water-types themselves is also very freaking annoying if i want t fit this pokemon on balance for obvious reasons. its also awful vs any team with xatu that even tho is not really the most common occurrence still bothers and aggravates the need of pursuit support for it to be effective. there are also other mons that would hate torterra if it had a slot for stone edge but really between sr, synth and the stabs there is really too much that would be left out to free up a slot. a- or b+ imo

also these are suggestions since i dont have time to go in depth but i feel like claydol and rotom-s could use a little boost atm maybe and id say plume could drop as well but i think i just irrationally hate the mon so...

 

[MZ]

Yeah torterra is pretty bad, people should stop using it 3.4% of the time

I don't think I've ever had a game where Archeops isn't annoying. Totally prepared or not, it has a bunch of sets and options and it will do something ans be threatening in every single game. You could have 5 things that 1v1 it and a Pyroar, but it will still come in on pyroar and be annoying as hell to switch into. Or if it's suicide lead, it's only stopped by xatu mind games. Or if it's CB switchins don't exist. I guess just the fact that it's S was always a staple in my eyes, that's why I liked xatu dropping since it didn't feel like a mon I could always use to do work. Archeops doesn't fail to perform.

 

[Aasgier]

yeah, Archeops is pretty troublesome but it is frail and most Priority shoves it into Defeatist range immidiately - and it does not resist any priority that isn't Normal-type. Things like Metang, Regirock and Granbull also all manage to check Archeops and Stone Edge is one of those moves that can (and will) miss at the most unfortunate times.


Edit: I wasn't exactly nice in my phrasing about Archeops.

 

[Aladyyn]

Archeops can get out of Defeatist with Roost though. Metang is getting basically no usage and therefore is irrelevant (though it shouldn't be even if it's not as good as it was before drops). Regirock walls Tauros too and Tauros is S. Granbull is about as relevant as Metang, the only decent player that I've seen use it is Dentri. Archeops is a metagame defining threat in the same way Tauros is; they both have flaws that can really hurt them but apparently Archeops' flaw is greater which I disagree with personally: at least you have some control over Archeops' health. Not to mention Archeops has versatility that other pokemon can only dream of, is one of the few usable offensive defoggers in the tier and sits at the defining 110 speed tier.

Also these conversations should really happen before pokemon move ranks...

 

[Kiyo]

On my paper, I'm not too sure about that. Tauros & Magmortar both have the same base HP, Tauros has base 95 defense & Magmortar has base 95 special defense. Also, Tauros has less weaknesses than Magmortar & isn't weak to stealth rocks. Assault Vest would make Magmortar seem bulkier but only if you are using it. And if Magmortar is going for LO, it's taking the 10% sap from Life Orb unlike Tauros thanks to Sheer Force. If you also take a look at how Tauros has immunity to a type while Magmortar does not.
There is a bit more of a difference between the two as Tauros is faster & Magmortar may try to catch up in speed with Flame Charge, it still has to sacrifice a move in return that would seem like a liability as Punchshroom has pointed out.
Magmortar also has very bad checks, such as Sawk is very much a threat in NU & has little switch-ins; if you also take a look at some of the common partners Magmortar shares, you'll notice that Sawk has an answer for most of them: Earthquake for Garbodor & Lanturn (which hits super effectively against Magmortar anyways), & Regirock isn't going to like taking a STAB super effective close combat. Others can easily get worn down by Sawk's immense power, coverage, & hazards. Archeops is a popular pokemon that can also check Magmortar & can give it's team mates a tough time. Magmortar also has a tough time with priority which can be a big issue as it even allows slower pokemon to get the jump on Magmortar. With other pokemon that are fast or that have priority rising up through the ranks, such as Floatzel & Shiftry, this still puts Magmortar in a tough position.
Tauros of course still will have a tough time with these pokes too, but, sometimes it depends.
I tend to think of Tauros as the faster/physical version of Magmortar, which may have been the reason for Magmortar for getting the raise, but, I still don't agree with it due to what I've read & experienced.

perhaps my phrasing made my sentiments harder to understand. Yes Magmortar and Tauros have similar base stats, yes you can argue that normal is a better defensive typing than fire. Lets keep in mind here my comments were based around the fact that Steakburgers thinks missing is a huge downside for Magmortar, I argued that it only relies on moves as accurate as Tauros and isn't punished nearly as hard when it misses. I think I may have implied this is due to a lack of defensive nature from Tauros when what I was trying to say is that Tauros typically acts as a revenge killer for offensive threats, which is why missing your attacks can be devastating. When using Magmortar you typically can't bring it in on these offensive Pokemon, you're typically forcing out something slower, which means even if you do miss you're not likely to take the brunt of a powerful hit in the way Tauros might.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is yes, on paper Magmortar and Tauros might have similar defenses, but when you think about how you use those Pokemon and how well they take hits from the Pokemon theyre asked to check Magmortar obviously has more 'practical bulk'.

tl;dr if tauros misses a rock climb or zen headbutt on sawk, its dead. if magmortar misses a fire blast on vileplume, probably not dead, lol.

 

[tmacbalanced]

perhaps my phrasing made my sentiments harder to understand. Yes Magmortar and Tauros have similar base stats, yes you can argue that normal is a better defensive typing than fire. Lets keep in mind here my comments were based around the fact that Steakburgers thinks missing is a huge downside for Magmortar, I argued that it only relies on moves as accurate as Tauros and isn't punished nearly as hard when it misses. I think I may have implied this is due to a lack of defensive nature from Tauros when what I was trying to say is that Tauros typically acts as a revenge killer for offensive threats, which is why missing your attacks can be devastating. When using Magmortar you typically can't bring it in on these offensive Pokemon, you're typically forcing out something slower, which means even if you do miss you're not likely to take the brunt of a powerful hit in the way Tauros might.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is yes, on paper Magmortar and Tauros might have similar defenses, but when you think about how you use those Pokemon and how well they take hits from the Pokemon theyre asked to check Magmortar obviously has more 'practical bulk'.

tl;dr if tauros misses a rock climb or zen headbutt on sawk, its dead. if magmortar misses a fire blast on vileplume, probably not dead, lol.

Solid points except for the "forcing out something slower" part. In my opinion, that depends on how healthy Magmortar is or if something like Shiftry doesn't have a swords dance up.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Magmortar: 394-464 (124.2 - 146.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Magmortar: 298-352 (94 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
And obviously Magmortar isn't going to like taking an aqua jet from Samurott either, nor from Kabutops.
May seem like a nitpick, but I just felt that was good to add in.
& what's wrong with using an ampersand?

 

[Kiyo]

Solid points except for the "forcing out something slower" part. In my opinion, that depends on how healthy Magmortar is or if something like Shiftry doesn't have a swords dance up.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Magmortar: 394-464 (124.2 - 146.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Magmortar: 298-352 (94 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
And obviously Magmortar isn't going to like taking an aqua jet from Samurott either, nor from Kabutops.
May seem like a nitpick, but I just felt that was good to add in.
& what's wrong with using an ampersand?

why is magmortar attempting to check +2 pawniard and shiftry? like yeah sucker punch is gonna ohko, but is that argument valid? who in their right mind tries to check those things with magmortar?

 

[Brawlfest]

Solid points except for the "forcing out something slower" part. In my opinion, that depends on how healthy Magmortar is or if something like Shiftry doesn't have a swords dance up.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Magmortar: 394-464 (124.2 - 146.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Magmortar: 298-352 (94 - 111%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
And obviously Magmortar isn't going to like taking an aqua jet from Samurott either, nor from Kabutops.
May seem like a nitpick, but I just felt that was good to add in.
& what's wrong with using an ampersand?

If AV Magmortar is your check to SD Shiftry we should talk less about viability rankings or your ability to play the game or build teams.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Magmortar: 261-308 (73.9 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

if this is for some odd reason a scenario you are running into often try physdef mortar

 

[tmacbalanced]

why is magmortar attempting to check +2 pawniard and shiftry? like yeah sucker punch is gonna ohko, but is that argument valid? who in their right mind tries to check those things with magmortar?

If AV Magmortar is your check to SD Shiftry we should talk less about viability rankings or your ability to play the game or build teams.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Magmortar: 261-308 (73.9 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

if this is for some odd reason a scenario you are running into often try physdef mortar

I wasn't trying to say Magmortar checks these guys or counter, I was trying to say that slower pokemon can give Magmortar trouble. I could also say that Hitmonchan & Kecleon can also do nice damage to Magmortar with priority. My point was that Magmortar doesn't always force a slower pokemon out. Which is why said it was obvious & a nitpick. Probably should of been more clear but oh welp.

 

[Brawlfest]

I wasn't trying to say Magmortar checks these guys or counter, I was trying to say that slower pokemon can give Magmortar trouble. I could also say that Hitmonchan & Kecleon can also do nice damage to Magmortar with priority. My point was that Magmortar doesn't always force a slower pokemon out. Which is why said it was obvious & a nitpick. Probably should of been more clear but oh welp.

Alright I can respect that but next time just say it's susceptible to priority don't even bother bringing speed tiers in, or else you tend to get flak when you put up a Non-Max Speed mortar against as Max Speed Shiftry or Pawn, both of which are inherently faster after investment anyways.

The fact of the matter is that ANY of the top tier offensive mons are susceptible to non-resisted priority. But the key is that in most cases they can take an unboosted one easily, and fire back a lot harder. An example is Sawk. One could argue Kangaskhan is a threat to it with Fake Out breaking sturdy, but what after? If the Kangaskhan is Adamant it gets easily outsped and bopped right back. If it chooses to run Jolly it misses out on a lot of firepower against other pokemon it should otherwise 2HKO.

To me the same argument applies to Mortar. It can take ANY unboosted priority move including Adamant LO Samurott's Aqua Jet. What this means is that a lot of threats slower than you are immediatly threatened out. It either chooses to damage you to RK after, or is forced out. I don't think using boosted calcs is useful as we can argue the same for every other top tier offensive mon. If you are that susceptible to Sucker Punches you could even run the rare Sub 3 Attacks set which btw is a great stallbreaker and abuses Sucker users.

 

[marilli]

Magmortar doesn't force out every pokemon slower than it, and no one claimed it did. If it were it would probably be broken but that's besides the point. The fact is, there still are things in this meta that is slower than Magmortar that get forced out, or even some faster threats like Lilligant and Mismagius get forced out vs Magmortar. It still takes advantage of a large number of Pokemon and uses that opportunity very effectively because it almost always makes heavy progress on the enemy team. The fact that it can perform a such a heavy defensive utility (in a very niche way that is hard to get with other defensive Pokemon, too) and have that kind of offensive pressure is kind of good.

"Slower Pokemon" with very strong priority such as Shiftry / Pawniard is nothing like an actually slow Pokemon like Vileplume / Regirock / Lanturn / Rhydon / Quagsire / whatever, and you know it. The fact that an offensive Pokemon can't force out a very strong priority user doesn't really say anything about how good the offensive Pokemon in question is, because offensive Pokemon tend to take a lot from neutral base 80 moves in general unless you resist it.

 

[Steakburgers]

perhaps my phrasing made my sentiments harder to understand. Yes Magmortar and Tauros have similar base stats, yes you can argue that normal is a better defensive typing than fire. Lets keep in mind here my comments were based around the fact that Steakburgers thinks missing is a huge downside for Magmortar, I argued that it only relies on moves as accurate as Tauros and isn't punished nearly as hard when it misses. I think I may have implied this is due to a lack of defensive nature from Tauros when what I was trying to say is that Tauros typically acts as a revenge killer for offensive threats, which is why missing your attacks can be devastating. When using Magmortar you typically can't bring it in on these offensive Pokemon, you're typically forcing out something slower, which means even if you do miss you're not likely to take the brunt of a powerful hit in the way Tauros might.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is yes, on paper Magmortar and Tauros might have similar defenses, but when you think about how you use those Pokemon and how well they take hits from the Pokemon theyre asked to check Magmortar obviously has more 'practical bulk'.

tl;dr if tauros misses a rock climb or zen headbutt on sawk, its dead. if magmortar misses a fire blast on vileplume, probably not dead, lol.

Wouldn't a better comparion be missing a focus blast against a rhydon? Cause then theres no way out of it, you're gonna die
Also Raptures, saying all mons in S have a chance to miss an attack is okay whats your point
Do most mons in S run a 70% and an 85% accuracy move on most of their sets?

 

[Sweet Jesus]

Torterra- the problem i see here is that your argument on offensive torterra is its "slow speed" and weaknesses, but can't both of these be said about rhydon who is also a "dancing" sweeper? it is even slower than torterra and even more weaknesses than it does, but its still great. also your argument seems to be extremely circumstantial, your using the argument "if they predict this BLANK will happen", i personally don't find this as a valid argument to use because that is dependent on specific events happening for BLANK to happen and if it doesn't happen that way you'll be in a very different situation. BTW what can ferroseed do to torterra? ferroseed is set-up fodder for torterra because what can it do back to torterra to stop it from setting up? and switching a garbodor in on a torterra is also risky because what if the torterra user "predicts" you and goes for EQ instead of wood hammer???? overall im not saying torterra shouldn't drop, i just don't like your reasoning on the offensive torterra of "if they predict this BLANK will happen to torterra" i just personally dislike using predictions as a main argument :[
Misdreavus- Oh and just because Mismagius is "better" than misdreavos doesn't mean they can't be in the same rank since mismagius isn't that good in NU, and that misdreavus is more of a "wall" because of eviolite while mismagius is a special sweeper or Stall Breaker.

Late, but rhydon simply has a much better defence and a very extreme defensive typing meaning he will either be ohko'd by stuff or wall them till the end of time (while terra walls near nothing), he also stabs his rock move and has access to megahorn to hit grass types and calydol which are practically the only things that switch-in on edgeqake safely without having a huge defence (while terra has...a grass move).
The plays I suggest are risky, but depending on the circumstances, they can very well be good plays.
For ferro, you probably read my post wrong so yeah...

Mismagius isn't that good in NU but misdreavus is pretty bad and simply outclassed in NU. Misdreavus is a pretty shitty wall too and most of the time you should just use rotom who packs some very useful additional resists, the possibility to hold a colbur berry and a has second stab.

 

[Venoxio]

Do most mons in S run a 70% and an 85% accuracy move on most of their sets?

Actually, yes. Rhydon runs SE, Tauros has Rock Climb, and Sawk runs SE sometimes or Zen Headbutt (which I guess counts).

I'm just gonna say that I'm on the fence about Mortar. It just forces a lot of things out in general with it's great coverage, as it can threaten most high ranked mons with it. Most "Slow pokemon" in NU actually have a bad matchup against it. (Main exceptions are Hariyama and to an extent Regirock.) Mortar can also deal with Pawniard and Shiftry very well with Mach Punch (an ok move on Mag) and it does have sheer wallbreaking power (with LO, AV is less). Will probably edit this with more thoughts when I'm less tired, but there are my thoughts for now.

Edit: Mach Punch is very situational yes but it does have some viability