Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[DoABarrelRoll]

fire blast on offensive mega altaria is ass just saying

how do steels get fucked by DDD lol, scizor can swords dance alongside it or 2HKO with CB bullet punch, skarm has whirlwind and taunt, ferro 2HKOes with gyro, rachi can paraflinch, zone 2HKOes... also the prevalence of weavile and mega scizor mean more and more teams prepare for it, not to mention that mega venusaur cockblocks it and tankchomp does 50% just by switching in and tanking 2 returns

the SpA offensive set is very good but doesn't make it worthy of S rank imo, as it lacks the ability to sweep at late-game and doesn't hit as hard as you'd wish to.

 

[North Gate]

fire blast on offensive mega altaria is ass just saying

how do steels get fucked by DDD lol, scizor can swords dance alongside it or 2HKO with CB bullet punch, skarm has whirlwind and taunt, ferro 2HKOes with gyro, rachi can paraflinch, zone 2HKOes... also the prevalence of weavile and mega scizor mean more and more teams prepare for it, not to mention that mega venusaur cockblocks it and tankchomp does 50% just by switching in and tanking 2 returns

the SpA offensive set is very good but doesn't make it worthy of S rank imo, as it lacks the ability to sweep at late-game and doesn't hit as hard as you'd wish to.

i didn't say steels got shat on by DDD, fire blast on offensive alt isn't ass, what the fuck are you on about. now yes, weavile and mega scizor hurt it (i wouldn't say mega scizor as much because it gets roasted by fire blast) but when you realize weavile doesn't switch in whatsoever and it's not like it gets pursuited lol, malt is cozy switching out on weavile and common teammates to malt are actually good checks to weavile so whatever, i don't really think the rise of these mons affects mega altaria's rank so much to be placed in the same rank as talonlame, latios, and mega diancie lol.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

i didn't say steels got shat on by DDD, fire blast on offensive alt isn't ass, what the fuck are you on about. now yes, weavile and mega scizor hurt it (i wouldn't say mega scizor as much because it gets roasted by fire blast) but when you realize weavile doesn't switch in whatsoever and it's not like it gets pursuited lol, malt is cozy switching out on weavile and common teammates to malt are actually good checks to weavile so whatever, i don't really think the rise of these mons affects mega altaria's rank so much to be placed in the same rank as talonlame, latios, and mega diancie lol.

but you implied it. you said that they either lose to offensive DD w/ fire blast, DDD or the special set. and btw fire blast doesn't have much reason to be used over roost imo, because the latter abuses alt's good typing and bulk. fire blast hits a few key targets that usually are already prepared for (cmon when was the last time you saw a team weak to ferro?).

also weavile can very well swords dance as your malt runs to the hills and try a late-game sweep or break something. mg clef isn't a reliable check to that, neither is ferro or any other steel bar cb scizor and AV meta w/ BP. any talon is OHKOed after SR and most of them don't run max EVs in speed.

yeah imo mega diancie should drop as well for reasons stated in the last page. however, malt is probably just a bit better than latios/talonflame, but honestly i don't think it's on zard x/mana's level.

 

[North Gate]

but you implied it. you said that they either lose to offensive DD w/ fire blast, DDD or the special set. and btw fire blast doesn't have much reason to be used over roost imo, because the latter abuses alt's good typing and bulk. fire blast hits a few key targets that usually are already prepared for (cmon when was the last time you saw a team weak to ferro?).

also weavile can very well swords dance as your malt runs to the hills and try a late-game sweep or break something. mg clef isn't a reliable check to that, neither is ferro or any other steel bar cb scizor and AV meta w/ BP. any talon is OHKOed after SR and most of them don't run max EVs in speed.

yeah imo mega diancie should drop as well for reasons stated in the last page. however, malt is probably just a bit better than latios/talonflame, but honestly i don't think it's on zard x/mana's level.

last i checked i saw people getting fucked over by 3 attacks dragon dancin' malt. i mean yeah, zardx is clearly the best s rank atm but mana? how the fuck can you say it's not on mana's level lmao. when you realize the only reason hoopa-u and mana are s ranked in the first place is because they kill a slowly declining playstyle and one sucky playstyle is enough to realize that malt is not on that low level. malt actually does good against offensive styled teams with dragon dance coupled with bulk and typing to check many offensive things.

i'd rather see a mana drop than a malt drop but whatever. clearly malt doesn't deserve to be dropped from S.

also let me summarize the reasons why malt should drop from everyone

'kekity kek weavile and msciz are rising (even if they have for so long now, and peaked already) and now malt is apparently shit!'

*sigh* kill me now.

 

[AM]

Be nice if people didnt talk out thier ass, ie fire blast m-alt being ass as one hilarious example, so I and others dont succumb to a perpetual onslaught of full blown diseases, thanks.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

People chill, don't trashtalk.

So nobody really responded besides nitpicking, what has really changed for M-Zam that warrants a rise? We base viability of how easy it can fit on a team, how is that easier to say now. Infact I could say it's gotten worse - the introduction of Hoopa-U and the rise of Weavile and Mega Scizor are both problems. Weavile prevents it from Mega evolving and can pick it of if weakened while Mega Scizor gives no fuck about zam outside of HP fire, which I believe is less common than other options. Never mind the fact that Hoopa is a very hard check to it.

 

[Tressed]

People chill, don't trashtalk.

So nobody really responded besides nitpicking, what has really changed for M-Zam that warrants a rise? We base viability of how easy it can fit on a team, how is that easier to say now. Infact I could say it's gotten worse - the introduction of Hoopa-U and the rise of Weavile and Mega Scizor are both problems. Weavile prevents it from Mega evolving and can pick it of if weakened while Mega Scizor gives no fuck about zam outside of HP fire, which I believe is less common than other options. Never mind the fact that Hoopa is a very hard check to it.

I'm not sure why you're bring Weavile up here at all, the only way it beats Zam is if Zam tries to Mega on it, which is a stupid play. Outside of that scenario, MegaZam crushes it (70% of the time, yay Focus Miss), so I think Weavile's presence is actually a positive for Zam, not a negative.

Outside of that, you're ignoring why those mons are rising, and that's a surge in offense. Hoopa-U's impact on the tier is a positive for Zam, since it tends to do well against offensive teams. While Hoopa itself might cause Zam to struggle, most matchups are going to be better for Zam than they were pre-Hoopa. In a meta where stall is awful, mons that destroy offense are a lot stronger, and Mega Alakazam is extremely good at doing just that, hence why it's being nominated for a raise (and why I support it moving up). Scizor may be more common, which is problematic for Zam, but generally you're going to see more strong matchups than weak ones.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

I leave for one minute and the viability thread turns back into cancer.
Am I the only person that thinks some moves on specific Pokemon are okay? It depends on your team sometimes, but it's not an all bad idea to run specific moves if your team sufficiently has a threat covered or needs something covered a bit better or, this may sound crazy, to just cover something as a surprise?

For instance, I hear that Mega Altaria should not run Fire Blast. While I can see why the one would see that, I find some form of usage to deal with Scizor or Ferrothorn on the switch. Don't need them covered? Run another move that better suits your team. This is a Pokemon that can do so and be minimally hurt in the process.

Gliscor vs Landorus-T. This argument never gets old. Since Gliscor needs the proving, I'll go over its Pros and Cons over Landorus-T.

Pros:

-Gliscor is immune to all status, bar confusion. This is thanks to Poison Heal+Toxic Orb.
-Gliscor has access to Roost, which gives it reliable healing outside of Poison Heal.
-Outside of Intimidate, Gliscor has more physical bulk than Landorus-T.
-Gliscor has access to Taunt, crippling walls given the right spread (this includes Skarmory, which would give Gliscor hell otherwise).
-This one caught me off guard, but Gliscor is faster than Landorus-T. For a physical wall/tank--however you want to use it, that's a nice perk. Deoxys-D was fantastic thanks to its bulk and unusually high speed.
Neutral:

-Both have the same typing, which means they typically have to watch out for the same Pokemon.
-Both of them can lay Stealth Rock down on the field, as well as access to U-Turn. Take that as you will.
-While Gliscor's Special Defense isn't as impressive, Landorus-T isn't very far ahead. Both still must worry about Special Attackers in general.
-In a Meta with Electric-Types like Thundurus and Raikou running rampant, having a Flying-Type that's immune to this thanks to their Ground-Type is fantastic, but both still need to watch for the Hidden Power Ice!

Cons:

-Landorus-T has Intimidate to work better against Physical Attackers. While Poison Heal gives Gliscor more lastability, Landorus-T can work against Pokemon like Breloom briefly (just an example off the top of my head).
-Landorus-T has a monstrous attack stat, sitting at an impressive Base 145, while Gliscor sits at a passable 95. This means that Gliscor is typically dependent on passive damage and chipping away with Earthquake.
-Why this would happen is beyond me, but Landorus-T can launch a surprise Special Attack thanks to its usable Base 105 Special Attack, but Gliscor cannot.
-Landorus-T can trap opponents with Block? Umm...cool. Oh, good. It can't learn Recycle. Neither can.
-Say hello to Defog! What do you have, Landorus-T? Oh wait, Gliscor has to be transferred from Gen IV, making Poison Heal incompatible. Yeah...no. What could've been a great option...down.

Okay, so maybe this doesn't paint the best picture for either one, so I'll just name the obvious for those that forgot: Both of these Pokemon play different roles. Landorus-T is an Offensive Pivot and good Stealth Rock layer. Gliscor is a Physical Wall, meant to stop the likes of Breloom and opposing Landorus-T from doing too much damage. Both are great Pokemon and difficult to take down. Gliscor just has too much going against it as a Defensive Pokemon to be A+, but has multiple good things lined up to be a solid A. Landorus-T has too many options (for some reason, Assault Vest) to be A, but isn't defining enough, nor "too good" enough, to be S. That's how I see it

 

[Gabidou99]

Mega Gardevoir A -> A+ This thing is honestly just stupid rn. Its first 3 moves are always a given (psyshock, hyper voice, and focus blast) gives it solid coverage that leaves its best switch ins as jirachi and klefki.. The ONLY thing stall usually has for mega garde is talon (which is easiely two hit koed by psyshock on any mega garde set) and shed which just loses if mega gardevoir has will o... Its 100 base speed allows mega Garde to outspeed all walls.. The best way to deal with mega garde is to bring in a steel type on it, but garde can also run hp fire (loses out on the 100 base speed stat but modest is getting alot more usage anyway and steel types like ferro and heatran are weary of focus blast..) or just revenge it with something like weavile... while its physical bulk is not very good it still avoids alot of one hit kos and makes up for it with its fairy/psychic typing and solid special bulk.. Mega Gardevoir is a huge pain in the ass for all balanced and stall teams but also can be a huge problem for offense as most offensive teams dont prepare for it that much (just slap a steel on it and pray it doesnt have will o or hp fire...) I have replays showing mega gardevoirs effectiveness in the metagame with some high rated ladder battles but replays are down rn so ill put them in later....

While Gardevoir is my absolute favorite Pokemon and I use it for both my "Serious" OU team and my "Fun" team I don't think it's THAT good for A+.

Well first, It can do absolutely nothing against Scizor since its Bullet Punch OHKO most of the time and it can even be used to wall and/or set up Sword Dance.

There is a lot of fast physical attackers that Gardevoir can have trouble with, such as Swift Swim Mega Swampert, Mega Aerodactyl, Choice Band/Life Orb Talonflame, Excadrill (Has higher speed than non-Mega Gardevoir), Offensive Garchomp, Mega Lopunny, Magnetzone and Heatran (Even with Focus Miss they can be troubling), Mega Metagross, and more. Hell even with Taunt and Psyshock It has trouble with Chansey, especially if it has Seismic Toss. If you're running Modest, stuff like Jolly Breloom can outspeed you which can be fatal. Almost all of those stuff I mentioned can outspeed & OHKO Mega Gardevoir, or just wall both of its STABs,

I just think it too easy to counter to be ranked to A+. Other than that however it's amazing (especially on Doubles) and deserve its spot on the A ranks, that just as far my knowledge goes, but I've been lurking this thread for about a year now I think.

 

[Karxrida]

I'm sorry but do people still run Choice Band Talonflame or even use alexfowl period? If you're going to list things that threaten something for your rise/drop arguement, make sure that they're relevant sets.

 

[p2]

While Gardevoir is my absolute favorite Pokemon and I use it for both my "Serious" OU team and my "Fun" team I don't think it's THAT good for A+.

Well first, It can do absolutely nothing against Scizor since its Bullet Punch OHKO most of the time and it can even be used to wall and/or set up Sword Dance.

There is a lot of fast physical attackers that Gardevoir can have trouble with, such as Swift Swim Mega Swampert, Mega Aerodactyl, Choice Band/Life Orb Talonflame, Excadrill (Has higher speed than non-Mega Gardevoir), Offensive Garchomp, Mega Lopunny, Magnetzone and Heatran (Even with Focus Miss they can be troubling), Mega Metagross, and more. Hell even with Taunt and Psyshock It has trouble with Chansey, especially if it has Seismic Toss. If you're running Modest, stuff like Jolly Breloom can outspeed you which can be fatal. Almost all of those stuff I mentioned can outspeed & OHKO Mega Gardevoir, or just wall both of its STABs,

I just think it too easy to counter to be ranked to A+. Other than that however it's amazing (especially on Doubles) and deserve its spot on the A ranks, that just as far my knowledge goes, but I've been lurking this thread for about a year now I think.

Did you just say Mega Gardevoir is easy to counter?

Mega Gardevoir is really difficult for any team to switch into, most of the time they need a bulky Steel type neutral to Focus Blast and half of them all get shit on by Wisp sets and stuff like Skarmory just gets overwhelmed by CM / Taunt. Just because something is used at set up bait, that doesn't mean it deserves to be dropped lower, hell, look at Mega Altaria. Mega Venusaur walls it to hell and back, and it's something that's still well deserving of S rank.

Mega Gardevoir is supposed to be a wallbreaker, not a catch-all destroy everything on offense mon like Mega Lopunny, so those examples of mons that can check it is kinda pointless because Gardevoir has a ton of offensive checks due to its ass defense and lowish speed tier. It still doesn't change that its insanely difficult for offense to switch into.

ik it's not on the discussion slate, but I really wouldn't mind seeing Mega Gardevoir and Mega Diancie swap places because honestly, I find Mega Gardevoir to be way more threatening than Diancie. also give suicune to a- discussion slate please :(

 

[Gabidou99]

Did you just say Mega Gardevoir is easy to counter?

Mega Gardevoir is really difficult for any team to switch into, most of the time they need a bulky Steel type neutral to Focus Blast and half of them all get shit on by Wisp sets and stuff like Skarmory just gets overwhelmed by CM / Taunt. Just because something is used at set up bait, that doesn't mean it deserves to be dropped lower, hell, look at Mega Altaria. Mega Venusaur walls it to hell and back, and it's something that's still well deserving of S rank.

Mega Gardevoir is supposed to be a wallbreaker, not a catch-all destroy everything on offense mon like Mega Lopunny, so those examples of mons that can check it is kinda pointless because Gardevoir has a ton of offensive checks due to its ass defense and lowish speed tier. It still doesn't change that its insanely difficult for offense to switch into.

ik it's not on the discussion slate, but I really wouldn't mind seeing Mega Gardevoir and Mega Diancie swap places because honestly, I find Mega Gardevoir to be way more threatening than Diancie. also give suicune to a- discussion slate please :(

Well like I said that was as far as my knowledge goes. I know it's used as a stall breaker but I use it both as a Special attacker AND a stallbreaker, but then again I'm pretty sure everyone use it as a special attacker when there is no stall to break.

But I'm certain it's true that there is a couple/lot of high-rated threats that outspeed & OHKO it.

 

[BlazeLatias]

Well like I said that was as far as my knowledge goes. I know it's used as a stall breaker but I use it both as a Special attacker AND a stallbreaker, but then again I'm pretty sure everyone use it as a special attacker when there is no stall to break.

But I'm certain it's true that there is a couple/lot of high-rated threats that outspeed & OHKO it.

ermm but gardivoir is a special stallbreaker. That's gardivoirs role. i don't it's its a fair argument to say gardivoir can't beat mega lopunny considering gard shouldn't be taking hits from mega lop. the main and only role of gardivoir is to break bulky cores apart. Also gard handles chansey just fine.

 

[Gabidou99]

ermm but gardivoir is a special stallbreaker. That's gardivoirs role. i don't it's its a fair argument to say gardivoir can't beat mega lopunny considering gard shouldn't be taking hits from mega lop. the main and only role of gardivoir is to break bulky cores apart. Also hard handles chansey just fine.

Well, yeah mayb you're right. But I remember most of the time I send it against Lopunny is when I really don't have any better option, there's very few of my team that can handle it with Fake out, probably none.


But I legitly have trouble handling Seismic-toss Chansey often with Gardevoir, most of the time I barely survive after is start spamming Seismic toss

 

[AM]

I think M-Gardevoir is perfectly fine where it's at. M-Gardevoir has always been a punisher to slower builds to begin with nothing really has changed for it to sport some improved effectiveness. It's always been good and it's always been there. When you look past the fact it punishes slower builds (like all the M-Sableye stall that get 6-0d by it -.-) you still have to contend with the fact anything above its speed tier, which isn't hard to find something effective with this, is going to put a big dent into it, if not outright just kill it.

ALSO, putting M-Gardevoir above M-Alakazam is just wrong lol and M-Alakazam and M-Gardevoir I think are fine (albeit M-Alakazam has a more legitimate case to move up) where they are.

Edit: Gliscors also fine where it is imo but was stated above why more or less.

 

[teamsnickers]

I think M-Gardevoir is perfectly fine where it's at. M-Gardevoir has always been a punisher to slower builds to begin with nothing really has changed for it to sport some improved effectiveness. It's always been good and it's always been there. When you look past the fact it punishes slower builds (like all the M-Sableye stall that get 6-0d by it -.-) you still have to contend with the fact anything above its speed tier, which isn't hard to find something effective with this, is going to put a big dent into it, if not outright just kill it.

ALSO, putting M-Gardevoir above M-Alakazam is just wrong lol and M-Alakazam and M-Gardevoir I think are fine (albeit M-Alakazam has a more legitimate case to move up) where they are.

Edit: Gliscors also fine where it is imo but was stated above why more or less.

I mean mega gardevoir is not THAT frail on the physical side it could be a pain but as I said before, it makes up for it with its nice typing and special bulk... 252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 207-244 (74.7 - 88%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Thats a specs keldeo that's pretty impressive, I just feel that mega gardevoir provides instant momentum to any team that its on and while its frail on the defensive side its not THAT bad.... fairy types are ruling the meta as it is and its really hard to find a switch in for this thing its pretty much mega hoopa u without being mixed and having better bulk typing and stats.....
ok scratch the lop calc im a idiot
AM Edit: Needs to be max attack Lopunny....

 

[Karxrida]

Its physical bulk is 68/65, which is worse than Lucario and Weavile. Strong neutral hits can and will kill it after Rocks.

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 225-265 (81.2 - 95.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 223-264 (80.5 - 95.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

0 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 213-252 (76.8 - 90.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (this is uninvested lol)

252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 235-277 (84.8 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 246-289 (88.8 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

The reason its standard set has Defense investment is to avoid being 2HKO'd by Latios' LO Psyshock, which is a resisted hit.

I honestly don't care if it rises, but don't say stupid things like its physical bulk isn't bad. X_X

 

[Noctis Totalus]

I also agree with M-Gardevoir going to A+. It's a phenomenal stallbreaker that ravages all stall teams mercilessly, and is a nightmare for bulky teams. I think someone said that M-Gardevoir isn't threatening to offense, which is ridiculous. Offensive Pokemon just can't switch into M-Gardevoir's Hyper Voice. Offensive Scizor that switches into an M-Garde's Hyper Voice does over 40% to its health. That's crazy. Of course, Gardevoir is extremely susceptible to Bullet Punch and basically any strong physical attack, but that doesn't detract from its role as a wallbreaker. And it's fantastic at it.

I think M-Gardevoir is perfectly fine where it's at. M-Gardevoir has always been a punisher to slower builds to begin with nothing really has changed for it to sport some improved effectiveness. It's always been good and it's always been there. When you look past the fact it punishes slower builds (like all the M-Sableye stall that get 6-0d by it -.-) you still have to contend with the fact anything above its speed tier, which isn't hard to find something effective with this, is going to put a big dent into it, if not outright just kill it.

ALSO, putting M-Gardevoir above M-Alakazam is just wrong lol and M-Alakazam and M-Gardevoir I think are fine (albeit M-Alakazam has a more legitimate case to move up) where they are.

Edit: Gliscors also fine where it is imo but was stated above why more or less.

I understand where you're coming from, but they perform different roles so comparing them is a little iffy. M-Garde's 165 base SpA coupled with Pixilate guarantees that anything that doesn't resist Hyper Voice is going to either get severely maimed or outright killed. Of course M-Gard isn't going to want to take physical attacks and deplores Steel types (though they fear Focus Blast), which is why it has perfect synergy with Heatran/Skarmory/Magnezone in order for them to take care of the threats M-Gard struggles with.

There is absolutely no reason for M-Diancie to be in A+ and M-Garde to be in A, when M-Gardevoir is far more threatening to teams in general.

 

[bludz]

I'm not really buying into the Gardevoir is better than Diancie thing - in fact I think it's nonsense. In a metagame where speed kills, that difference in speed is HUGE. Plus, Diancie has actual mixed attacking prowess (inb4 people say Psyshock) and a better secondary STAB.

The other thing I think that kinda prevents Gardevoir from rising is that unlike some other Megas, it doesn't really check a ton of things by virtue of its typing alone. Okay it checks Latios, Thundurus and many special attackers based on its SpDef, but does not check basically any physical attacker which outspeeds it (ahem fast Chomp pretending to be Tank gets kills on this thing). "Doesn't anything lose to things that outspeed it bludz?" Not necessarily if it has the bulk or typing to take a hit. Gardevoir is actually frail as shit on the defensive side.

Let's go back to the Mega Diancie comparison. Okay, Diancie's defenses aren't all that great either and its Rock typing doesn't do it favors certain times but others it does. It is an effective check to Talonflame, Mega Charizard X (!), and Tornadus-T based on its secondary typing. The extra speed lets it beat out Keldeo, fast Garchomp, Charizard, every other base 100 mon as well as Manectric before mega evolving (Gardevoir can't stop it from Volt Switching out) and Mega Pinsir. Okay, Diancie isn't a fan of Bullet Punch (neither is Gardevoir) or Aqua Jet, and it doesn't stomach Mach Punch as well but it stands up pretty nicely to Brave Bird and Fake Out. It also takes less damage from neutral priority hits because of better bulk.

There is no denying that Mega Gardevoir's Hyper Voice is significantly more powerful than Mega Diancie's Moonblast. It also has plenty of counterplay for switch-ins which are pretty scarce. But for example Metagross can switch into Mega Gardevoir before mega evolving and force it out, whereas it cannot do so to Mega Diancie without Bullet Punch. This is just one example of how the speed tier makes a big difference.

There's a lot of talk about how Gardevoir doesn't really have switch-ins, but Diancie doesn't exactly have a ton of them either. I mean realistically speaking Diancie has nearly as few switch-ins as Gardevoir if you consider all possible sets for both, while it's certainly a bigger threat to offense. Garde's matchup against slower playstyles IS better, but Diancie is still no cake walk for them, plus we have 2 S rank pokemon who don't take up a mega slot and already obliterate fat stuff. I'm not saying there's no reason to use Gardevoir if you can use Hoopa or Manaphy, but they hurt its viability more than Diancie's. With Manaphy at its peak in effectiveness and Hoopa's complete disregard for almost anything slower, this certainly tips the scale on the Mega slot opportunity cost.

 

[AM]

I also agree with M-Gardevoir going to A+. It's a phenomenal stallbreaker that ravages all stall teams mercilessly, and is a nightmare for bulky teams. I think someone said that M-Gardevoir isn't threatening to offense, which is ridiculous. Offensive Pokemon just can't switch into M-Gardevoir's Hyper Voice. Offensive Scizor that switches into an M-Garde's Hyper Voice does over 40% to its health. That's crazy. Of course, Gardevoir is extremely susceptible to Bullet Punch and basically any strong physical attack, but that doesn't detract from its role as a wallbreaker. And it's fantastic at it.



I understand where you're coming from, but they perform different roles so comparing them is a little iffy. M-Garde's 165 base SpA coupled with Pixilate guarantees that anything that doesn't resist Hyper Voice is going to either get severely maimed or outright killed. Of course M-Gard isn't going to want to take physical attacks and deplores Steel types (though they fear Focus Blast), which is why it has perfect synergy with Heatran/Skarmory/Magnezone in order for them to take care of the threats M-Gard struggles with.

There is absolutely no reason for M-Diancie to be in A+ and M-Garde to be in A, when M-Gardevoir is far more threatening to teams in general.

No I can definitely compare them because they occupy the same rank, Mega Alakazam and Mega Gardevoir that is. First of the point about not threatening to offense is cute and all when it implies necessitating a switch in, which offense isn't going to be sweating bullets unlike fat teams that M-Gardevoir will actually succeed in breaking down multiple times in the match. The turn that Gardevoir comes in on offense is the turn something is choice locked into a favorable move or something like Latios and even with Latios it's taking a little around half just from Psyshock. I think that's kind of stupid when you're suppose to be a threat, or what's being implied, to a good 3/4 of the teams you're gonna see and you only manage to get like 1.5 kills at most on an extremely good day. Being a phenomenal stallbreaker isn't a new thing, so out of the entirety of it being A for so long, and the archetype of teams hitting a point where they're gonna pressure it, you now you need more stuff such as speed control to really get M-Gardevoir going before it dies or inevitably is forced out.

Offensive Pokemon don't function like fatter mons they're obviously not meant to switch into a pixilate boosted Hyper Voice lol, that's not their purpose and offensive Scizor is a poor example when it was never a good switch in to begin with. I'm not really getting your point about synergy especially in your examples when two of them can practically be deterred or maimed by offensive grounds and even some waters and Skarmory isn't actually breaking down any of M-Gardevoirs checks in the long run.

I don't think M-Alakazam should rise for some of the points stated but that's just my own opinion personal bias aside but M-Alakazam being 110 speed points higher in the speed department I don't think you realize how amazing that can be. Then you have the fact that before mega evolving it has immunity to hazards in a meta where hazards are spammed to shit everywhere, can slow down weather offense, outpaces some of the biggest constraints to offense in M-Manectric and M-Lopunny right now, and for something that isn't even considered a wallbreaker hits hard as hell where only the fattest of fat is going to slow it down. That right there, is an actual threat to offense. Necessitating a handful of scarfers and priority users who are bad switch ins to begin with, having the ability to encore a +1 M-Altaria and M-Gyarados, hitting the plethora of threats below its speed tier such as Starmie, Torn-T, and Weavile.

That's the long story short but performing different roles and comparing them isn't iffy when it's being implied which one is actually doing their role effectively with all the nuances involved, in terms of general comparisons between the two subranks A+ and A. bludz summed up M-Diancie well and I agree with that.

 

[Delibird Heart]

what about lanturn tho

Smeargle D -> Unlisted I absolutely agree with this, and in my opinion Smeargle should never even have been listed in the OU viability ranks since it's only "niches" in the tier are Spore Hazarder, which gets fucked over by grass types (or by accuracy if they run dark void) and by hazard removal (basically kill smeargle then defog/rapid spin and smeargle accomplished nothing during the match) or Quiver/Geo/Shellpasser which are now all illegal due to the new and improved Baton Pass clause. If you want to run a suicide lead that sets up hazards, then use Azelf (you probably shouldn't either, but it's still way better than this thing). If you want to run a lead that sets up SW and rocks, use shuckle.

I felt like not enough people understood that Smeargle is bad/gimmicky cause apparently some people still want it to stay in D so here I go.

 

[victini dancer]

Most people here are forgetting that to wallbreak or stallbreak speed is not a must

Gardevoir-mega A ->A+
It deserves it. Most teams have a huge problem with mega garde(even scizor fears the possible HP fire) and few things safely switch into hyper voice. its sheer damage somewhat rectifies its speed, and has all the tools for an effective wallbreaker. It forces switches and dents literally any mon in OU with it's decent movepool. In my eyes it clearly deserves A+

 

[Dratios]

Most people here are forgetting that to wallbreak or stallbreak speed is not a must

Gardevoir-mega A ->A+
It deserves it. Most teams have a huge problem with mega garde(even scizor fears the possible HP fire) and few things safely switch into hyper voice. its sheer damage somewhat rectifies its speed, and has all the tools for an effective wallbreaker. It forces switches and dents literally any mon in OU with it's decent movepool. In my eyes it clearly deserves A+

I personally feel like there's a couple of incorrect statements here. "Even scizor fears the possible HP fire" Bulky Mega Scizor can switch in (while living on 10% or so), and with 132 Attack EVs and a neutral nature its Bullet Punch OHKOes 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Garde without rocks. With rocks, it doesn't need any investment whatsoever. While it is true that there are very few neutral switch-ins to Hyper Voice, its Defense and weakness to priority (more specifically, Talonflame, Scizor, and Bisharp's priority) keep it out of A+. Not to mention the onset of Scarf Hoopa-U which obliterates it with Gunk Shot (which it should be carrying imotbh) and has a decent chance to OHKO with H-fury. And no, it doesn't dent "literally any mon in OU" because with good predictions it can be counterplayed. "Its sheer damage rectifies its speed." I'm sorry, if something outspeeds and OHKoes you, your "sheer damage" doesn't matter. Its below average speed and garbage physical bulk keep it out of A+, IMHO.

 

[Gabidou99]

I'm not really buying into the Gardevoir is better than Diancie thing - in fact I think it's nonsense. In a metagame where speed kills, that difference in speed is HUGE. Plus, Diancie has actual mixed attacking prowess (inb4 people say Psyshock) and a better secondary STAB.

The other thing I think that kinda prevents Gardevoir from rising is that unlike some other Megas, it doesn't really check a ton of things by virtue of its typing alone. Okay it checks Latios, Thundurus and many special attackers based on its SpDef, but does not check basically any physical attacker which outspeeds it (ahem fast Chomp pretending to be Tank gets kills on this thing). "Doesn't anything lose to things that outspeed it bludz?" Not necessarily if it has the bulk or typing to take a hit. Gardevoir is actually frail as shit on the defensive side.

Let's go back to the Mega Diancie comparison. Okay, Diancie's defenses aren't all that great either and its Rock typing doesn't do it favors certain times but others it does. It is an effective check to Talonflame, Mega Charizard X (!), and Tornadus-T based on its secondary typing. The extra speed lets it beat out Keldeo, fast Garchomp, Charizard, every other base 100 mon as well as Manectric before mega evolving (Gardevoir can't stop it from Volt Switching out) and Mega Pinsir. Okay, Diancie isn't a fan of Bullet Punch (neither is Gardevoir) or Aqua Jet, and it doesn't stomach Mach Punch as well but it stands up pretty nicely to Brave Bird and Fake Out. It also takes less damage from neutral priority hits because of better bulk.

There is no denying that Mega Gardevoir's Hyper Voice is significantly more powerful than Mega Diancie's Moonblast. It also has plenty of counterplay for switch-ins which are pretty scarce. But for example Metagross can switch into Mega Gardevoir before mega evolving and force it out, whereas it cannot do so to Mega Diancie without Bullet Punch. This is just one example of how the speed tier makes a big difference.

There's a lot of talk about how Gardevoir doesn't really have switch-ins, but Diancie doesn't exactly have a ton of them either. I mean realistically speaking Diancie has nearly as few switch-ins as Gardevoir if you consider all possible sets for both, while it's certainly a bigger threat to offense. Garde's matchup against slower playstyles IS better, but Diancie is still no cake walk for them, plus we have 2 S rank pokemon who don't take up a mega slot and already obliterate fat stuff. I'm not saying there's no reason to use Gardevoir if you can use Hoopa or Manaphy, but they hurt its viability more than Diancie's. With Manaphy at its peak in effectiveness and Hoopa's complete disregard for almost anything slower, this certainly tips the scale on the Mega slot opportunity cost.

I agreed with most of it, but Psyshock is really a nice secondary STAB for specially-bulky mon who can't take physical attack as much well, it's useful on stuff like Chansey and Sylveon, especially Calm Mind Sylveon.

(There is 2 versions of Sylveon and I don't know which one to choose)

252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 222-262 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Sylveon: 150-177 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 207-244 (32.2 - 38%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO

While it doesn't do extraordinary damage it'll certainly do more to them than a Hyper Voice directly to their sky-high special defense. And it's only has 10 less base power than Psychic, so I don't think you're missing too much.

 

[Martin]

I agreed with most of it, but Psyshock is really a nice secondary STAB for specially-bulky mon who can't take physical attack as much well, it's useful on stuff like Chansey and Sylveon, especially Calm Mind Sylveon.

(There is 2 versions of Sylveon and I don't know which one to choose)

252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 222-262 (56.7 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Sylveon: 150-177 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 207-244 (32.2 - 38%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO

While it doesn't do extraordinary damage it'll certainly do more to them than a Hyper Voice directly to their sky-high special defense. And it's only has 10 less base power than Psychic, so I don't think you're missing too much.

You should only pay attention to the first Sylveon calc as support Sylveon is completely irrelevant in the current meta as it is outclassed by Clefable and support MAlt in the role of defensive Fairy-type.