Testing a Baton Pass-less metagame in DPP this season of Smogon Tour

Hello all, I was musing on some strategies to mess around with for this season of Tour and realized that there were probably going to be some Rude People spamming Baton Pass which made the prospect of playing in the first place a lot less fun.

I don't think anyone would argue that BP teams (both Gliscor pass and full chains) are brought for the sole purpose of cheesing the opponent. Whether they are ~broken~ or not is another story, but it's clear that they ruin games by taking them out of the players' hands. So I'm making a moleman-style proposition: in this season of Tour, test DPP without these trash BP strats similarly to BW being tested without Sun this past WCoP.

Sun was banned from WCoP for similar reasons to why I'd like BP gone. This isn't the only thing that I think makes this a good idea though, there's also the fact that this doesn't change the actual metagame whatsoever. BW underwent some changes with Sun/Stoutland becoming garbage and Excadrill dropping, but this doesn't change the DPP metagame in the slightest and only serves to help by eliminating retarded strategies (aids cancer heatah fajita etc). It's like eliminating SmashPass in BW. I mean Satan almighty, Shakeitup had the most points in DPP by spamming BP last season.

As for implementation, I think not allowing speed + other boosts to be passed would be fine. Full chain teams without a way to boost speed are utter garbage and this effectively renders glispass worthless while not cutting off any other viable strats.

Thanks
 

McMeghan

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Technically, this isn't really worth or Suspect or a "test". You said it yourself, the metagame won't change in the slightest with or without a BP nerf (unlike the BW tiering change, so the comparison isn't really fair).

I'm against the idea itself, I just don't think it warrants a test/suspect/whatever you wanna call it. It's just taking a decision whether or not BP is unhealthy/uncompetitive in DPP. Some people (like Conflict and the big bad bab) said it wasn't as broken/influenctial/consistent in DPP as it is in other gens, and it's playable around with reasonnable means (here).

My biggest concern about BP (and the reason why I was in favor of the latest nerf in BW and XY) isn't so that BP is "broken" (it's really not if you're willing to go out of your way to implement a solid check in your team), but rather that it's very formulaic and decide the game in like, 5-6 turns? I think it's a bad thing that Pokemon games are decided on such a small turn sequence (where 50:50s are often involved) and nobody would want a metagame revolving around that either.
 

Andy Snype

Mr. Music
Can you specify the arguments you're trying to make for banning BP? You're just saying with reference to sun and I cbf looking through 3 pages on why you want to suspect it.

edit: i only looked at the OP, which had more arguments relevant to sun than it did for BP, and I want to make sure that there aren't any other arguments i'm missing other than "easier said than done for teambuilding," which I could be misinterpreting.


Your point that "this doesn't change the actual metagame whatsoever" won't necessarily be true. Ex: Skarmory is a better choice for balance teams to phaze BP teams because of having access to WW rather than just Roar, which can be easily blocked by Mime, so a rise in Skarmory as opposed to Pert or anything else with Roar can actually matter in terms of which phazer you'd see more or the value of say packing a Mag and the value of having Taunt in teambuilding matters more, eg: ipl ffing in ST7 vs hanke on like turn 3 after he Taunted with lead Aero against ipl and set up SR.
 
Technically, this isn't really worth or Suspect or a "test". You said it yourself, the metagame won't change in the slightest with or without a BP nerf (unlike the BW tiering change, so the comparison isn't really fair).

I'm against the idea itself, I just don't think it warrants a test/suspect/whatever you wanna call it. It's just taking a decision whether or not BP is unhealthy/uncompetitive in DPP.
Fair, I don't care how we get rid of BP as long as we do.
Some people (like Conflict and the big bad bab) said it wasn't as broken/influenctial/consistent in DPP as it is in other gens, and it's playable around with reasonnable means (here).
Its level of brokenness/influence/consistency is identical to BW's SmashPass and full chains. In fact I would argue that team preview made them easier to play around! I could say you could play around those with reasonable means as well but we banned them! BP is never "consistent" (and Shake/Dennis last tour kinda prove otherwise but whatever) so I don't understand how that's an argument here.

My biggest concern about BP (and the reason why I was in favor of the latest nerf in BW and XY) isn't so that BP is "broken" (it's really not if you're willing to go out of your way to implement a solid check in your team), but rather that it's very formulaic and decide the game in like, 5-6 turns? I think it's a bad thing that Pokemon games are decided on such a small turn sequence (where 50:50s are often involved) and nobody would want a metagame revolving around that either.
I entirely agree with the point about the horribly formulaic games, but in almost 5 years of playing against these teams I don't think it's taken 5 turns to realize how stupid the game was gonna be and can't recall a single instance where I was thinking my hardest and realized "damn this is a 50/50" because these teams really only have one "right" move (I know some people have this view about Pokemon as a whole but that is wrong and narrowminded, as well as a discussion for another time) so they don't really care what you do. It's why playing a full chain is so stupid. They don't have to anticipate a thing you do, they'll just do their thing and you can't stop it.

Can you specify the arguments you're trying to make for banning BP? You're just saying with reference to sun and I cbf looking through 3 pages on why you want to suspect it.

edit: i only looked at the OP, which had more arguments relevant to sun than it did for BP, and I want to make sure that there aren't any other arguments i'm missing other than "easier said than done for teambuilding," which I could be misinterpreting.
One-dimensional team with no backup plans which thus turns games into matchup that is nigh impossible to play around, takes games out of the players' hands, adds nothing positive whatsoever, etc.

Your point that "this doesn't change the actual metagame whatsoever" won't necessarily be true. Ex: Skarmory is a better choice for balance teams to phaze BP teams because of having access to WW rather than just Roar, which can be easily blocked by Mime, so a rise in Skarmory as opposed to Pert or anything else with Roar can actually matter in terms of which phazer you'd see more
Whirlwind won't do shit once Smeargle uses Ingrain.
or the value of say packing a Mag and the value of having Taunt in teambuilding matters more, eg:
Taunt needs to be faster or it fails against Azelf, which leaves... Aerodactyl. Crobat would be retarded to Taunt an Azelf. You can't Taunt Gliscor because it immediately Rock Polishes. No Taunter outruns Electrode.
ipl ffing in ST7 vs hanke on like turn 3 after he Taunted with lead Aero against ipl and set up SR.
Thank you for giving a great example of BP's retarded matchup dependency

It really baffles me how people actually seem to be against getting rid of this trash that will do nothing but ruin games this season.

[08:52:22 pm] <~McMeghan> bkc
[08:52:29 pm] <&autumn_leaves> Sup, G
[08:52:29 pm] <~McMeghan> idk if you got my post wrong in the bp thread
[08:52:34 pm] <~McMeghan> but im not against removing it
[08:52:42 pm] <&autumn_leaves> ye i didnt mean at you i meant in general
 
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bp isn't individually broken but it is oft unmanageable in conjunction with other playstyles in the metagame. the best teambuilders naturally allocate moveslots to effectively cover the most dominant playstyles. that being said, the primary three (balance, ho, stall) all essentially bag the possible resources one has available. by default, bp is the 'uncovered' playstyle due to the restrictive nature of having finite resources and the roundabout ways that this playstyle necessitates to cover it. it's not a sense of complacency in the builders but an application of the quintessential pokemon law: risk vs reward. the scarcity of baton pass due to its heavily unreliable nature paradoxically makes it all the more potent as a playstyle. players fail to prepare for baton pass due to its rare nature (stemming from its unreliability) and the impractical manners to cover it (stemming from lack of resources) thus making it strong. the metagame in the past has never shifted to a baton pass dominant metagame afaik, so it still remains uncovered. this is a perfectly reasonable justification imo, and it kinda just shows pokemon's negative attributes in the matchup issue. as my BFFL<333 CHEST CHEST AF YAP so aptly put in another context but still relevant (paraphrase) "It's like attempting to cover a ship with 20 holes with only 15 patches". that's how pokemon with baton pass is (and without.. but moreso with). the semantics of banning make baton pass a no go, but for the sake of credibility in a tier i lean toward wanting a metagame which has more player autonomy and the capability of covering most threats.

but hey that might just be me.
 
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dEnIsSsS

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I think it is pretty funny how you guys didn't nerf BP in DPP at all. "Testing a Baton Pass-less dpp metagame in this season of smogon tour" lol wouldn't it be easier to just nerf it already once for all? I mean, I think most people were already favorable to the BP nerf in this generation as well (only in GSC and ADV most people agreed that there wasn't any need). The Bab + Conflict convo shouldn't be taken seriously imo. Ok then, so it seems that all teams have a scarf Rotom and it is very easy to win some 5050s to manage tricking a choice scarf to the Gliscor before a Rock Polish boost, or bulky teams with Hippowdon, Skarmory and Swampert should never lose to a +4 Taunt Gyarados (Gliscor behind screens can easily get more than 1 swords dance boost when it is facing bulky teams), it’s aaaalright. And also you can't take a BP chain from 5 years ago and compare with what we can do using recent knowledge and developed builds. The BP chain I spammed last season also has countermeasures to phazing moves and Taunt. "oh we are too good for BP, so don't nerf it" isn't a good way of thinking imo. I think the same clause that was applied in ORAS/BW would perfectly fit in DPP as well.
 

IronBullet

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Agree with the others that whether or not BP is broken, nerfing it makes sense. It's a strategy that relies solely on luck to work, decides matches within 5-6 turns of starting, and just takes the fun out of it. It's true that it's unreliable and people scarcely use it, but the mere fact that you can completely take the game out of your opponent's hands within the first few turns, and leave no way for them to get back into it, is ridiculous. It doesn't take much skill to pull off either. It's not an exaggeration; if you look at some of the replays McMeghan posted in this thread it's apparent that the game is over as soon as Gliscor successfully pulls off its first BP. It's not dominant in terms of usage but the above reasons and those given by others in this thread make it perfectly justifiable to nerf in my opinion.

Tricking a Scarf onto Gliscor and phazing are only stopgap measures and not proper solutions. Trick can be anticipated and many teams don't carry a TrickScarfer, while phazing can easily be stopped by Taunt which BP teams always carry. Sure bulky Pokemon like Skarmory and Swampert can stop even a +4 Metagross in its tracks, but how about other common BP recipients like Togekiss? Not to mention such Pokemon are complete setup bait for BP teams anyway. Like dice said, it's just impractical to expect players to be consistently ready for BP chains because of their scarcity and the impracticality of packing dedicated checks to them when there is so much else to cover in the game that is much more common than BP.

I don't see the harm in implementing a BP nerf for the upcoming tour; both Gliscor Pass and full chains are simply unhealthy strategies and have no place in official tournaments. The no speed boost + other boost rule BKC mentioned sounds ideal.
 

Vinc2612

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I won't talk about full BP here because I've never faced any in DPP, I just don't know how manageable it is. I guess Smeargle with agility/spore/ingrain/BP makes it quite broken, but again, I don't know.

On Gliscor Pass:

Well, I disagree with the matchup part. We had an interesting conversation with McMeghan yesterday where I told him "In my opinion, you can take almost any well built DPP team and find a gameplan against those. Just follow your gameplan during the 8 first turns and you'll be fine". Since he was not convinced, we made some matchs where he used Dual Screen Gliscor Pass and I took some of my favourite teams.

Game 1: I picked this team for two reasons.

1/ It's the one I use the more often, I know perfectly how to use it, I've never faced GliscorPass with it (only theorised the battle).

2/
Crobat would be retarded to Taunt an Azelf.
So here's the theory: When facing Azelf, U-Turn. The damages tell me if full HP or not. If regular Crobat, I send Tyranitar and play normally. If it's full HP, I send Breloom to check if Azelf runs Taunt or Explosion as the last move. Breloom is a dead weight against Gliscor / Lum DD Dragonite / Gyarados DD that are commonly use with Azelf Dual Screen, so it can die to Explosion. Then I have a Crobat bulky taunt against a team counting on setting up to win.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-83752


Game 2:
Theory: Metagross lead OHKO Azelf through Reflect. From there, I can waste the turns with Trick Jirachi. I also spam leech seed because Gliscor doesn't want to BP it. Once the screens are gone, I just sweep it with fast Pokémon (read: Starmie)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-83753

Game 3:
My first loss. But more because of a mistake from me than a real threat. I tried to waste turns by not expecting Taunt + Explosion and it led to my defeat, it won't happen again. He still couldn't pass more than +2 without being exposed to Empoleon getting a hit on the recipient outside of light screen.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-83755

Game 4:
The first time he successfully BP +2/+2. Well, Fire Blast + Explosion + Espeed does 83.5-98.4%. With my worst matchup, I still manage to get a ~73% to prevent the pass. And even with the pass, I can still find a way to come back with Shaymin + Scizor.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-83757

Game 5:
Another option for Crobat lead, against a more defensively oriented core. In this case, in order to BP +2/+2, the BP player needed to guess right two 50/50. And since it's a defensive core, it is not enough to sweep.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-83758


My opinion is even stronger after those battles. I may review a couple of those "game plans" before the smogon tour but everytime, I managed to get the odds at a minimum of 73% in my favour. Just by following a game plan that was prepared before the battle. Almost no need to predict. That is pretty much like saying "If I face a DD Tyranitar, I need to hit a focus blast to not get swept".
 
Every team you used was really, really offensive. I agree that a strong offense team stands the best chance at busting up BP, like when Heist was prepping for Shake in tour he made sure Glispass stood zero chance. Not that the pokes used to do this are bad or overly niche or whatever, if anything they're the opposite but there isn't a hell of a lot of them. 4 attack Metagross is the best one. Not every team can afford to prepare for Glispass without severely compromising themselves against the greater metagame. For example, I'm imagining my standard offense team that's been my best for coming up on 3 years and unless I'm using one of ScarfLoom lead versions (which can still lose with short sleep turns), I'm not beating it (and this goes out the window if Electrode is the lead, he's more common on full pass but he does Azelf's job even better since he doesn't lose to Aero). I would have to make my team significantly worse if I wanted to win these, and for what... winning by matchup against a strategy based entirely around it that takes all skill out of the equation instead of losing to it. Well, it's the smart thing to do, but having it in the metagame is not good.

While on this matchup point, your replays are pretty much proving my point. These aren't even games, there is no "player interaction" as the ubers crowd said during the Shadow Tag test. Small aside for game 1 and your plan vs. Azelf leads: standard ColburZelf has max HP, so assuming it's Glispass and going to Breloom like that is going to really screw you over against a more standard offense. Also McM didn't Taunt the Loom wtf.

Another thing: in the third game, you made one mistake and the game was over. That shit is not DPP. This is not good for the meta.

Anyway, what the BP user has to do is pretty much set in stone. There's no amazing double switching a BP team can pull on you. This is why it is so prone to matchup. If it has the right one (and it clearly does, very often - your teams might fare better against it than most but I guarantee everyone who faces it in tour thinks for a few minutes scouring every possible option he has to stop it and realizes he doesn't have one at all), it will win.

Also, nearly no defensive team is capable of putting nearly enough pressure on Glispass. Your best shot is to have a Body Slam Jirachi and get lucky.
 

Vinc2612

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I don't get the part with Electrode. Why would it be used over Azelf? It does not learn Reflect.

Yes, what the BP user has to do is pretty much set in stone. This is why you can prepare more easily against that than against anything else.

Against that BP, the defensive teams lose to taunt + swords dance pass. There's no agility involved, so no nerfing from the BW/ORAS clauses. Of course, Gliscor Pass wouldn't be used at all without Rock Polish, but what I mean here is that the loopholes encountered when playing stall will not be fixed by banning Gliscor Pass. Gliscor Taunt would still wreck, so will Taunt Crobat + Pursuit user. I don't think the BP part is what makes the stall lose here.
 
light screen is what glis really needs. plus not losing to aero or a tie against another zelf is huge.

just because what they do is set in stone doesn't mean every team has the means to cover them. one of the best things about dpp is being able to play your way out of matchup, but bp takes all that and shits on it.

gliscor still uses rp against defensive teams so it can block trick and taunt. if it only passes sd, meta either gives up coverage for agility - this is totally fair - or gets outrun. there are many ways for stall to handle the pokes you mention, it's a game to see if they can outmaneuver the threat. it is not when one of them gives metagross +4 attack and +2 spe with 4 attacks.
 
I don't really see what's the point on not banning (or at least testing) BP in DPP. I think everybody agrees that it's a very dumb (not necessary broken but really matchup reliant and hard to stop) startegy and a ban would definetely make the metagame a bit better. I think a suspect vote such as the one made in BW couldn't hurt.
 
I don't get the part with Electrode. Why would it be used over Azelf? It does not learn Reflect.
The team I used in DPP Smogon Tour (Azelf / Gliscor / Gyarados / Metagross / Dragonite / Lucario) has a ridiculously hard time against Aerodactyl leads. Nothing has priority except for Lucario, which has a decent shot of being OHKO'd by EQ (it's almost guaranteed to kill after the LO recoil you take from using Close Combat to bring Aerodactyl to its Focus Sash). Sure, you can put Extreme Speed on Dragonite, but you're still in a rather difficult position after that, especially against an HO team. If you put Electrode over Azelf, you can Taunt Aerodactyl and then proceed to set up Gliscor as you wish after you set up Light Screen. As BKC said, you don't really need Reflect a lot of the time.

Well, since I'm already posting, might as well continue with my opinion. I obviously would spam the living hell out of Gliscor Pass in DPP in this upcoming Smogon Tour because I think it's ridiculously good and got me free wins last tour. I don't consider myself 'good' in DPP by any stretch of the imagination, and the fact that I got the most DPP points in Smogon Tour last season is something I find to be hysterical. That being said, I'm far too lazy to actually put any effort into the other tiers since I can't use Smashpass, so Gliscor Pass being available in DPP isn't that important to me. As the person who used this the most last tour and had the most success with it, I legitimately don't understand how it has not been nerfed. From my experience last year, I actually found Gliscor Pass in DPP to be better than Smashpass in ORAS and BW, at least for Smogon Tour purposes. It's extremely matchup reliant and uncompetitive, and it's definitely not good for the metagame. This isn't even considering the ridiculous BP chain denisss used to win a DPP Smogon Tour last season; that seems extremely annoying to face as well.

Another thing to consider is that there is no team preview in DPP. This is important because your opponent is unable to tell immediately whether you are playing Gliscor Pass or not if you lead with an Azelf. Sure, you can attempt to figure it out in some situations based on damage as Vinc did, but not all teams can make a play like that and get away with it against Gliscor Pass; besides, even that strategy is flawed, as BKC pointed out. In the last DPP Smogon Tour I won, the other team I used had an Azelf lead, and I was able to successfully bluff my opponents because they were expecting Gliscor Pass. This worked because I was known for using Gliscor Pass; the reverse works just as well. If you're not known for using Gliscor Pass, and just randomly lead with an Azelf, your opponent has no idea whether you are playing Gliscor Pass or not, and that can end up providing you with a solid advantage. Why? Because the Gliscor Pass-user can capitalize massively on any turn during which his / her opponent does not make the optimal play to beat the playstyle; one wrong move, and this style can sweep through teams entirely. All in all, Gliscor Pass is just unhealthy for the metagame, and I feel the same about pure Baton Pass from watching denisss use it, although I have no personal experience playing with it. I just don't understand how this style got nerfed in ORAS and BW, but not in DPP.
 
i wanted to clarify that though dennis used full baton pass to success a few times in smogon tour last season, it has never been a consistent nor a popular playstyle. back in the days of shoddy battle baton pass was rare and seeing it even in the top 50 was an anomaly outside of opjqy. the reason it was worked for dennis was more so the fact people had not played against it than that it was a legitimized successful strategy. when juxtaposed with gliscor pass one can easily notice that full baton pass lacks the element of surprise which is what makes gliscor pass so repugnant to face. full baton pass has always lead with either electrode or ninjask, which are both easily counterable and eviscerated by common leads such as metagross and tyranitar. after losing the lead match up full baton pass then plays against rocks 6-5 down, an unfavorable match up to say the least.

while one might argue that there is no 'element of surprise' in bw or oras with full baton pass, one is missing the fundamental point that pushes baton pass over the edge in these more contemporary metagames (ignoring things like iron defense scolipede in oras). the baton pass user in bw and oras can immediately see what pokemon on his/her opponents team can prevent a sweep. this is disparate to dpp because while the full baton pass users team is rather predictable, the opposing team is completely clandestine, giving the person without baton pass an inherit advantage from the start of the battle. i firmly believe that if dennis or other players continued to use full baton pass this season their results would be far less impressive as people are now more familiar with the match up. i would argue it is more so the case that full baton pass was successful last year not for being broken but for being different.

with all that being said, i still see no reason to keep baton pass in dpp. while i believe it is not nearly as cancerous as it is in bw and oras, it adds nothing of substance to the metagame. i agree with mcmeghan that anything that can end a game in 6 turns is unhealthy for a metagame, and pulling off a baton pass team successfully takes little to no skill. just imagining what could be done with a perfected version of dennis's team is rather nauseating, and gliscor pass has been deemed broken anyways for as long as i remember.

in conclusion, i agree with BKCs proposal and see no reason to not apply this clause before the first dpp tour.
 

McMeghan

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Update on this thread.

There are reasons we didn't do anything to BP in Gen 4 when we nerfed in Gen 5 and Gen 6. Reasons being that some DPP specialists thought it was an overblown issue or that DPP was always considered fine before, with or without BP.

For reference, BP had been suspected once in BW (end of BW1). In XY/ORAS, it had seen a suspect, a nerf and a lot of usage outside of Smogon Tour alone (Suspects, OLT).

Back to DPP, we feel like only one Smogon Tour season is quite a short sample to take a decision on something that had been considered fine (hated on, sure, that's not new, but not to the point of getting suspected) for quite a while now.

On the other hand, BP presents the same issues in DPP that it did in BW and ORAS, one of the biggest one for me being that it decides games in a very small turn sequence on a consistant basis. It's way less hit or miss than other "gimmicks". I also feel like Full BP has the potential to be even "worse" than GliscPass for the tier, but it hasn't seen a lot of usage yet (Hypno/Electrode have seen a whopping 4 usage in all of DPP last Tour season lol).

At the end of the day, we don't want to rush a decision just because there is a potentially short lived trend dictating the playerbase to hate on something deemed "bad" when it wasn't considered for a suspect before (wink wink Gothitelle). We understand the concerns regarding BP tho, as there have been adressed in BW and ORAS.

For now, we will Wait & See. Nothing will happen for the upcoming week of Smogon Tour, but you can be sure we will carefully observe the tournament. If BP continues to be an issue (even moreso now that the players know they might encounter it more often due to last season's success or a potential rise in Full BP), we will do something. We are totally open to do something mid-season, before the second DPP session (in fact, that's what we're considering if BP stays problematic).

By the way, should something happens, we will hold a vote similar to the one in BW with Excadrill/Weather Speedsters.
 

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