The Current State of ORAS OU

yeah lets ban gothitelle and remove stalls only way of coping with the myriad of threats in OU. I dont see where the logic of banning Gothitelle is coming from because by doing that you make stall infinitely weaker to loads of shit that goth counters by scarf tricking, otherwise which could easily overwhelm stall teams. I mean stall barely has any answers that hard stop Flamethrower Clefable (theres tran, but eh) and it kinda needs goth just to not get swept by that of all things.

point is, I dont get why stall players want goth banned when its a way bigger stall enabler than it is a stallbreaker
Let's be serious, there are plenty of ways to handle CM boosters, including CM Flamethrower Clef. Off the top of my head, you've got Heatran, Tentacruel (Haze or Acid Spray), SDef Talonflame, Gastrodon, Amoonguss kinda, CM Unaware Clef, Jirachi, Volcarona, CM Roar Suicune, Dragalge, etc. Those are just the extremely passive answers (and there are more of course, like Mew). The only thing which is legitimately super difficult for stall to beat without Gothitelle is M-Heracross (and, I guess, Hoopa if it's Signal Beam Goth).

Gothitelle enables approximately two fucking cancerous stall teams, but on the other hand it takes apart stall all by itself. Just because it's currently a top option to blanket check a bunch of stallbreakers doesn't make it necessary for stall to function, or mean it's healthy for the metagame.
 
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yeah lets ban gothitelle and remove stalls only way of coping with the myriad of threats in OU. I dont see where the logic of banning Gothitelle is coming from because by doing that you make stall infinitely weaker to loads of shit that goth counters by scarf tricking, otherwise which could easily overwhelm stall teams. I mean stall barely has any answers that hard stop Flamethrower Clefable (theres tran, but eh) and it kinda needs goth just to not get swept by that of all things.

point is, I dont get why stall players want goth banned when its a way bigger stall enabler than it is a stallbreaker
I personally don't care how much Goth helps stall, the point is that Goth is potentially broken because it takes away a fundamental aspect of the game (that aspect being defensive switching). There is no net positive that comes as a result of having a trapper like Goth in the metagame, because by definition of its ability it eliminates healthy counterplay (or any counterplay really).
 
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jpw234

Catastrophic Event Specialist
it's unimportant to vilify or glorify any particular playstyle. we don't create tiers with playstyle equality in mind. we create tiers with overall 'balance' (loaded terms ftw). your subjective opinion of x ban affecting y playstyle is inappropriate for this thread.
Uh, except a reasonable amount of variety and competitive equality between playstyles has been an important part of the concept of "balance" since DougJustDoug's Characteristics of a Desirable Metagame.
 
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reasonable is such a buzzword too. there has never been a series of bans that has completely disintegrated a playstyle [barring bp which was deemed overpowered/uncompetitive] (keeping in mind that playstyles in and of themselves are defined by even more subjective manners), and there is no objective parameter to distinguish how viable each playstyle has to be. to be candid, stall has been obsolete for 2 like years bar being a 'matchup enabler' in a tournament. it's just how pokemon has naturally progressed in tiers because of power creep, and if we wanted to have stall reach your Reasonable Amount of Variety it would create too many bans. or maybe you think that it's currently reasonable right now and you wanted to post a counterargument to my post that is effectively irrelevant at the time being? idk.
 

jpw234

Catastrophic Event Specialist
reasonable is such a buzzword too. there has never been a series of bans that has completely disintegrated a playstyle [barring bp which was deemed overpowered/uncompetitive] (keeping in mind that playstyles in and of themselves are defined by even more subjective manners), and there is no objective parameter to distinguish how viable each playstyle has to be. to be candid, stall has been obsolete for 2 like years bar being a 'matchup enabler' in a tournament. it's just how pokemon has naturally progressed in tiers because of power creep, and if we wanted to have stall reach your Reasonable Amount of Variety it would create too many bans. or maybe you think that it's currently reasonable right now and you wanted to post a counterargument to my post that is effectively irrelevant at the time being? idk.
I mean, there are three bans being proposed for the sake of defensive playstyles (Manaphy/Hoopa-U/Goth that I'm aware of), and none of them seem ridiculous on their face, so I'm not sure why you'd say it would create "too many bans". Posts on the previous page effectively said that these Pokemon should not be banned because it's a good thing that people don't have to gameplan for stall (i.e. stall is that bad), if that doesn't go far enough toward "reasonable" I'm not sure what would? The fact that stall was the prominent playstyle in parts of XY seems to deny your assertion that stall is inevitably obsolete due to power creep, it seems instead that conscious choices about bans are what keep it down at the current time.
 
Ok, honestly I don't quite buy this "What if offence was made much more difficult to use by a particular pokemon?" approach. It should be pretty easy to guess that I would in fact feel differently if offence was made less viable by a particular threat, and that I would advocate a ban for it. However, currently, I am not doing the same for stall, and I find nothing inconsistent about this approach at all.

Some might point to me as extreme, but I am being no more extreme than the voters of gen 5 OU, who even brought down Kyurem-B from ubers as opposed to just deciding to keep the pokemon in question OU:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-bw-ou-suspect-testing-round-7-ice-ice-baby.3473636/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...sandstorm-excadrill-thundurus-banned.3449630/

I'm aware that some people didn't like the end of BW2 OU too much due to the effectiveness of spike stack, and the drought + venusaur combination. These seem like pretty legit concerns, and I see a ban has been made to eliminate one and try to fix the other. However, be careful not to use a post hoc ergo propter hoc argument fallacy, which would be to say that we should ignore this decision because of a dissatisfaction about the metagame, as a tier with Kyurem-B being less than ideal is very different from a tier being less than ideal because of Kyurem-B.

As for this "Characteristics of a Desirable Metagame" article, I feel like just relying on a 5 year old article to decide the current suspecting process would miss the point of this thread. As I just demonstrated, suspect voters have already voted contrary to this article's philosophy, and this is one of the instances where we must consider doing the same thing again. To be honest, different play styles do not have the same importance to the metagame. The not so bold assertion I'm going to make is that full stall and a large number of semi stall builds are very forgiving in terms of prediction and overall game plan, because it is usually just wear down the opposing team with hazards and other forms of passive damage. As proof of this, I must point out that many people in OLT are using stall to ladder, despite games taking much longer by doing so. If tilt, by which I mean a decrease in playing capability, is more likely to happen after playing pokemon for a long time as opposed to a short time, then this approach would appear to be very counter-productive, unless of course this playstyle is as forgiving in prediction and matchup based as I believe it to be. As a side note, the amount of stall used on the ladder right now would indicate to me that it isn't as unviable as some would make it out to be.

Many people have pointed to GSC as a defensive and skill-based metagame, but due to the points I made earlier in this thread about how defensive styles currently work, quoted below, I think that asking for such a thing now would be a contradiction in terms; it is very difficult to get a win earned by skill rather than hax against stall if you do not carry the correct breakers needed for that specific stall team.
Hazard removal is more reliable than before, with defog having strong distribution, and Mega Sableye can even stop hazards from going up in the first place. Wearing down pokemon becomes increasingly difficult when they have regenerator. Although it has limited distribution, Unaware can prevent pokemon can setting up effectively in the first place. All in all, I believe that powerful breakers should be considered a necessity in the current metagame.
Advocating 3 different bans to support a play style which has what I would call a controversial effect on the game it is being used in seems like 3 steps too far to me. When it comes down to it, voters, myself included, are going to vote for the metagame which seems most fun. The key question being asked here is to what extent we should try to support stall; if voters deem that a metagame where stall has decreased effectiveness is more fun, then there is nothing wrong with breaking previously suggested metagame moulds to bring about this change.
 

jpw234

Catastrophic Event Specialist
I have no problem with the stance "stall sucks and I don't want it to be a thing" if that's gonna be the stance, I just hope that we would be a bit more honest about it. As it stands, that's not how we approach tiering.

For clarity: I don't support the stance "stall sucks and I don't want it to be a thing", I just recognize that at least it's a consistent argument.
 
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