Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[p2]

suicune for a-

its insanely anti meta right now with all these weaviles and shit running around. it's just so unprepared for. it just shuts down almost all forms of physical offense in the tier and is a great stallbreaker too because of pressure. it's not even easy to boost against either because it just shuts you down with a scald burn or roars you out. it has some obvious flaws in sleep talks unreliability and the fact that its constrained to defensive builds only, but those flaws really don't hold it back that badly

not much to say, but suicune is retarded right now and i'm kinda surprised at how moving to a- wasn't on the last discussion slate because the first few weeks of olt have really proven that its a really solid mon right now despite how offensive the meta is

 

[AM]

CHANGES:

Mega Altaria S -> A+
Mega Gyarados A+ -> A
Mega Alakazam A -> A+
Weavile A -> A+
Starmie A -> A-
BYE SMEARGLE

NEXT SLATE:

Hoopa S -> A+/A
ALL RANKS!!!

Updated

 

[teamsnickers]

Noming Beedrill (Mega) to drop from B to B-..... The meta is just not kind to mega beedrill rn and most volt turn teams are running mega manectric or even mega scizor over mega beedrill.... Garchomp being at almost 1/3 usage right now is just toxic for mega beedrill (can come in on mega beedrill at any time and deal massive damage w/o lifting a finger....) There's just alot of common walls that have no problem with mega beedrill (lando t garchomp any steel type) Its just more on the level of Pidgeot (Mega) in terms of effectiveness at the moment... Its hard to defend mega beedrill on your team unless you built your team around mega bee, and even then its hard to defend using mega beedrill over mega scizor and mega manectric as volt turn megas.

 

[serperioriscool]

Aerodactyl to A!
This thing absolutely destroys offense which is the most consistent Playstyle as of now
Unlike lopunny, it's an amazing counter to Tflame, and unlike manectric, it has reliable recovery, stealth rock and taunt
It's amazing coverage allows it to destroy many threats on offense like Lando-T, Serperior and Alakazam
Plus, if zam rose, I think aero should too

 

[AM]

The rankings have hit a point of a lot of subjectivity, a lot of the higher rankings subject to always change, so I think a lot of things need to be

1. Taken with a grain of salt
2. Realize it's an interpretation to both the individuals on the team and the team as a whole.

Might as well state that cause stuff gets kind of nitpicked when certain things could easily fall under two or three different ranks at any given point. Anyways.....

Suicune nom I'm ok with, M-Beedrill not so much but not a whole lot to say since it's one of those "subjective" noms.

I'm not a fan of Dragalge being in B+ with a group of mons where half of them could be debated to be A-, Suicune and Terrakion as examples, and the other half that are either more effective at their roles or on par with Dragalges effectiveness, Tangrowth and Quagsire as just two examples. Dragalges defensive utility in combination with its wallbreaking prowess I think is a bit overrated for the sake of being B+. Look at Togekiss, who can impair so many slower builds running about in the meta with Air Slash, Roost, Heal Bell, Nasty Plot and sports two immunities to dangerous typings in ground and dragon at once while sporting a more consistent speed tier. Dragalge got to B+ for a lot hype for teams using it during SPL in a meta where slower balance was a bit more viable than it is now. It has the luxury of being a switch in to stuff like Thundurus and Charizard-Y but the positives it conveys really isn't as great as they're in practice for what is believed to be something on par to all the other B+, imo.

Don't really agree with M-Aero rise above me either but that's probably gonna be another story.

 

[TheNegativeOne]

I actually want to nominate something. That something, is

TANGROWTH: B --> B+

D'AW LOOK AT HOW CUTE HE IS Okay, seriously, Tangrowth is a god. His physical bulk is great, he can effectively run an AV set, he can run a leftovers set with Sleep Powder, provide Knock Off support, put mons to sleep, and serve as a reliable check to most water, ground, and grass types. He also has a fantastic ability in Regenerator, meaning after he takes a hit and puts something to sleep, he can heal some with leftovers, switch out, and get a large portion of his health back, making him extremely hard to wear down and KO throughout the match. You can also fit him well on any balance core as a sort of psuedo-Mega Venusaur. You may argue that Amoonguss can fill this role better, and yes, it can in some respects. But Tangrowth can apply both physical AND special pressure with Power Whip and Leaf Storm, has better physical bulk, and can be used in more than just one way, where as Amoonguss really only has one viable way of being used. Overall, I just feel like Tangrowth does well enough in this meta to warrant it a B+ Ranking.

 

[JTD783]

I actually want to nominate something. That something, is

TANGROWTH: B --> B+

D'AW LOOK AT HOW CUTE HE IS Okay, seriously, Tangrowth is a god. His physical bulk is great, he can effectively run an AV set, he can run a leftovers set with Sleep Powder, provide Knock Off support, put mons to sleep, and serve as a reliable check to most water, ground, and grass types. You can also fit him well on any balance core as a sort of psuedo-Mega Venusaur. You may argue that Amoonguss can fill this role better, and yes, it can in some respects. But Tangrowth can apply both physical AND special pressure with Power Whip and Leaf Storm, has better physical bulk, and can be used in more than just one way, where as Amoonguss really only has one viable way of being used. Overall, I just feel like Tangrowth does well enough in this meta to warrant it a B+ Ranking.

I'd like to second this. Tangrowth is an excellent check to physical attackers in general, and special attackers as well should it run AV. Very fat and difficult to wear down, especially if paired with a regenerator core. Tangrowth has plenty of offensive pressure (not as much as Mega Venu ofc but it's sufficient) and a neat supply of support moves. And it switches into Azu, which not many things can do. Works great on balance and semi-stall teams, and I've even used the RU specs set to some success.

In terms of its consistency and effectiveness, I argue that it's comparable to many B+ mons.

Besides, how can you say no to this:

Yeah, it's the same dancing Tangrowth as the one from that stupid meme thread in April... But now it shoots lasers!

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Wobbuffet C+ -> B- minimum

I honestly have no clue how this thing is C+. I feel as though people undersell it far too often, and that may be a reason for it's low ranking. I've gone over this in other threads, and I've expressed my feelings towards trappers in multiple different areas. Trappers are some of the best support Pokemon in the game. Every single one is ran on a team exclusively to beat out specific key threats, Wobbuffet is no different. With everyone saying Offense is taking off all over again, I honestly have no idea how the ever living hell this thing is C+. Wobbuffet is an absolute terror to offense, getting at least a guaranteed Kill, and in the right hands multiple. With that said, since it is a support Pokemon, it takes out the biggest threat on any offensive team, kills it, encores it, or even tickles it, and leaves way for X mon to set up and sweep or pursuit it, either way, Wobbuffet does its job, and does it well. Wobbuffet just has the absolute best moves it could possibly ask for, bar maybe a few things, like recovery, but other than that, it is absolutely perfect for taking out Pokemon that otherwise really threaten your team. With offense on the rise, I just cannot possibly see Wobbuffet in C+, and therefore, should move to B- at minimum.

EDIT: This is a hard case to argue since you can't really compare it to other Pokemon in either C+ or B- but if you honestly don't believe Wobbuffet fits in a rank with Mandibuzz, Sylveon and Chesnaught, then I've got to question a few things. Honestly, I feel it should be higher than B-, but I don't want to over shoot it too soon.

"All ranks"
Shameless repost.

 

[Albacore]

Hoopa-U to A+

This should probably happen. Now that the metagame has setttled around Hoopa it's not really an S rank threat anymore, not so much in terms of what it does and how effective it is at it (it's still the best balance-breaker in the tier, no argument there) but how easily it fits on teams and how often it actually puts in work. The metagame getting more offensive is obviously bad news for Hoopa, don't think there's much need to elaborate further. A while back I said Hoopa-U was on par with Manaphy, and I actually take that back, there's one thig Manaphy is a lot better at than Hoopa and that's actually fitting on team. Manaphy provides some pretty useful defensive utility that makes me reccomend it far more often than Hoopa, in face I've rarely seen teams with Hoopa on it that weren't specifically build round it (though that also kinda applies to XZard so this isn't a deterrent to S rank on its own). In this metagame, it's not enough to be a really, really good wallbreaker, you also should be able to provide a safety net against certain threats. With the wide varienty of wallbreakers availible, some of which actually do check certain things, I don' tthink Hoopa-U should really be S rank anymore.

Suicune to A-

Just to be clear, CM+Roar is the potential A- rank set here. Back when Suicune moved to B+ I opposed it because of 2 major reasons, the fact that Suicune is very easy to pressure and its recovery gives free turns to the opponent, the fatc that it overly relies on Scald Burns and Sleep Talk rolls to check things, and the fact that it's setup fodder for a lot of the tier. Roar pretty much completely removes the last two flaws, phasing out pretty much everything that could potentialy set up on Suicune besides Taunt Gyara, which is just fantastic for Suicune. The first flaw is still there though, and though Suicune walls a ton of stuff in theory, in practice it's a bit different. The fact that it's bulky enough that even Timid Tauntless Gardevoir doesn't 1v1 it is admittedly super impressive, but that doesn't translate too well in practice, since it's usually either going to be weakened or asleep. There's also the fact that Roar has problems of its own, like not being able to get rid of last mon setup sweepers and losing Sleep Talk gives Suicune even more turns where it can do absolutely nothing. Suicune is solid but I think A- is kinda overselling it, it still has some pretty criplling flaws.

Dragalge to B+

Really torn on this. Toxic Spikes are still very strong support for powerful offensive mons like XZard Weavile Bisharp Talon Lopunny etc. despite the metagame being more offensive, since even some offensive Pokemon like Keldeo and Azumarill really loathe to deal with it, and pretty much every bulky team nowadays rusn a Hippowdon which really hates TSpikes too. It also seems like more and more teams are completely forfeiting hazard removal, with Excadrill preferring SD and Starmie not being as popular as it used to be.
But B+ is still kinda high for something as niche and easy to deal with as Dragalge, and I'd argue that if you want a TSpikes setter, Scolipede is just as good, and has use outside of being a TSpike setters, unlike Dragalge which isnt really worth using if not for TSpikes. Scolipede also fits better on offense which I'd argue benefits from TSpikes more than balance despite its fast-paced nature, simply because it mainly targets walls which otherwise steal offensive momentum away. Dragalge does have neat defensive applications and the SpD set is actually super bulky, but its get worn down easily by scald burns and lacks the recovery to switch into what it checks more than a couple times, so it's not all that great defensively, and offensively it's pretty easily handled by a bunch of Steel-types, sure Focus Blast is going to hurt but it's innacurate and it's a move Dragalge really doesn't want to use unless it has to.

 

[Clair]

S --> A+
Hoopa-U needs to move down for a whole bunch of reasons. First of all, we all know that it has a bad matchup vs offense. Scarf mitigates this, but it's hard to justify using Scarf Hoopa except for the surprise factor, thanks to the Pursuit weakness and it's general difficulty in switching in. Both Weavile and ScarfTar are everywhere, so locking into either STAB is pretty dangerous.

Secondly, because Hoopa seems to fit best on offensive teams itself (defensive ones typically can't afford its lack of defensive presence), its ability to force balanced teams to just sacrifice mons to force it out is less useful, because its team tends to wear away at walls anyway. So Hoopa often just takes out a death fodder mon before being forced out. Obviously people try to get around this by leading with it or otherwise trying to get it in early, but it's still an issue.

Third, stall has largely adjusted to cope with Hoopa, through means such as Signal Beam Goth, ScarfTar or Mandibuzz. It can actually be pretty difficult for Hoopa to switch in against stall without the proper teammates (slow U-turn really helps), and even then, Skarm/Chans/Sab cores can often keep it in check long enough to win or wear Hoopa down through LO and other residual.

B+ --> A-
I love using Cune. Primarily, it absorbs Lava Plume and Scald, but its bulk is just invaluable as a general switch-in / check for half the metagame. Zard-X, Weavile, Keld, and Azumarill are all huge and Suicune can check or counter various sets of each (although it needs Roar to check Zard). Pressure + Scald wins matchups against passive teams ridiculously easily too.

The only issue with Cune at the moment is its moveset problem. Roar is great, but forgoing Sleep Talk is just horrible in such an offensive meta. If you ditch Calm Mind you lose the ability to beat other Calm Minders anyway, one of the principle reasons to use Roar. Regardless, it's definitely A- worthy.

A- --> A-
Should stay in A-. The thing is, while Aero outspeeds everything, priority is more common than ever, which severely limits its ability to clean lategame. You've also got a SR weakness and serious 4MSS (which typically leaves it ineffective against either anything bulky or fairly common mons on offense), and it's not particularly strong against neutral targets.

C- --> C+
Offense meta favours this guy as well. You've got a counter to Weav, M-Meta, DD Malt, CM Fable, DDNite, Azu, standard Lati's and a few other things, which also checks M-Gyara, some Torn, a few Hoopa sets and almost any physical attacker. With moderate investment you can survive a +1 Zard-X Flare Blitz and paralyse back. Of course, Aggron's offensive tools (Heavy Slam and Thunder Wave primarily) are also more effective when you're primarily facing offense.

Obvious downside is that RockyChomp is everywhere, so the rest of the team needs to pick up the slack in that regard. Still more than enough for C+ imo.

 

[aceguy123]

Hoopa-U S>A+: Agree, I was in the camp to not have it go to S in the first place but I'm glad that we're looking at it again. My original placement was at A and I still think it probably belongs there but it has been a little bit better in practice than I previously thought it would be. Still it is definitely not S especially since MAlt isn't anymore as nonsensical as that is.

Suicune B+>A-: Agree. Sure why not this thing is a pain to pretty much every team in the meta right now. Still predictable as hell but being predictable is always overrated as being bad.

Tangrowth B>B+: Ehhh somewhat agree. I think most of the regenerator mons are in a pretty good spot atm with how much utility you get out of being able to switch often and it's nice to have an offensive check to Special Attackers.

Since we're just talking about every mon again I'd like to bring up MPert once more for A-and I'll just quote my post.

I'd like to nom Mega Swampert for A- or A rank. Reason being that Mega Swampert is far and away the best Swift Swim user atm and is a relevant powerhouse outside of rain. I'd also argue he is the best mega pokemon to use within the context of a rain team. I'll just go down the relevant threats from S down
S:
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 184-218 (59.9 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Rain: 211-249 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
A+:
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 238-282 (65.5 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 300-356 (71.4 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 296-350 (89.4 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 219-258 (67.8 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 240-284 (80.2 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 199-235 (54.5 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye in Rain: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor in Rain: 163-193 (47.5 - 56.2%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T in Rain: 289-342 (87 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
A:
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 180-212 (51.1 - 60.2%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 56 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 356-420 (87.9 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 218-258 (68.3 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W in Rain: 85-101 (28 - 33.3%) -- 94.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 136-162 (34.5 - 41.1%) -- 64.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 229-270 (70.8 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 126-148 (34.6 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
A-:
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Celebi: 158-186 (39.1 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados in Rain: 97-114 (27.4 - 32.2%) -- 60.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew in Rain: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir in Rain: 205-243 (75.6 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 210-248 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 94-112 (23.8 - 28.4%) -- 96.7% chance to 4HKO
B+:
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 208-246 (64.3 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Heracross in Rain: 213-252 (70.7 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 192 HP / 64 Def Reuniclus in Rain: 280-330 (68.4 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 240-283 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 130-154 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Togekiss in Rain: 252-297 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
B:

252+ Atk Mega Swampert Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 424-500 (66 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Feraligatr: 199-235 (63.9 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 356-420 (99.7 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire in Rain: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 374-444 (104.7 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos in Rain: 210-247 (54.6 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery​

B-:

252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 204-242 (47.2 - 56%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Bronzong in Rain: 211-249 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 126-150 (33.1 - 39.4%) -- 19.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr in Rain: 252-297 (71.7 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz in Rain: 184-217 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Sylveon in Rain: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO​

C+ or lower:

252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 120 HP / 136 Def Alomomola: 204-241 (40.7 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 52 HP / 232+ Def Wobbuffet in Rain: 246-289 (46 - 54.1%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 126-150 (33.6 - 40.1%) -- 35% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Whimsicott: 160-190 (49.3 - 58.6%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 127-153 (36.9 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO​

Anything I didn't mention is OHKO'd by a move of the standard set (Waterfall, Earthquake, Ice Punch, Low Kick/Superpower) or it doesn't have any offensive pressure relevant to counter Swampert's 2HKO.
Notice in most of the calcs I chose some of the bulkiest sets those mons could run against Swampert, albeit some like the Ferrothorn calc I took into account his most popular set rather than the bulkiest.
Even in Swamperts worst matchups the damage he brings is fairly significant (around 30% damage to bulky Gyarados after Intimidate and about the same to Def Rotom-W)

Swampert's bulk is the next consideration and I won't go into as much detail as I did with how much damage he can bring here's some of his more impressive feats:

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert: 255-302 (69.6 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Mega Swampert: 217-256 (59.2 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Mega Swampert in Rain: 247-292 (67.4 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Mega Swampert: 174-205 (47.5 - 56%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO
+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Mega Swampert: 280-330 (76.5 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Mega Swampert: 181-214 (49.4 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Mega Swampert: 297-349 (81.1 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 84 Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Mega Swampert: 130-154 (35.5 - 42%) -- guaranteed 3HKO​

Basically in a pinch Swampert can tank pretty much any of the heaviest hitters and guarentee he wins with rain speed. Obviously his typing is excellent with only one weakness and key resists to Steel, Rock, and Fire. He takes a resisted Stealth Rock which in many cases means he won't be surprise OHKO'd by any of the ones listed there that get up into the 90% range. Most importantly he has an electric immunity allowing him to switch into mons like non Grass Knot Thundurus-I and Raikou giving him a free mega evolve and making him the only swift swimmer besides Seismitoad (lol) to be unaffected by Thunder Wave.

A core of Politoed, Torn-T, and MSwamp is enough to climb 500 points on the ladder on its own atm and that's why he deserves at least A- rank if not A because personally I see him as more powerful than all the offensive threats in A-(MAero, MPinsir, Alakazam, Serperior, Volcarona). MSwamp is easier to set up than Serperior, MPinsir, and Volcarona and it is bulkier and less susceptible to counters than MAero and Alakazam. It's main flaw is it is less "plug-and-play"-able then those mons but it can setup its own rain with the cost of either Dragon or Dark/Steel coverage. It seems just as functional in my eyes that way as Volcarona who would have less Speed and potentially less fire power if Swampert can spam Waterfall.

 

[Martin]

While I'm not completely against the Hoopa drop, I do think that it still holds a place in S simply because, at the end of the day, the key meta trends are kinda for the sake of not getting shredded by this thing. If it didn't shred balance, the metagame wouldn't have shifted towards offense. Really, the meta has centralised around it in the same way that it centralised around Aegislash, except to a lesser degree. IMO, if something centralises metagame trends, it should be S. However, that is just me - so take what you will from that.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Anyway, on to Hoopa-U. I can't say it's the absolute best pokemon, but if it does drop to A+ so should Manaphy imo, as neither is better than another. Hoopa-U is usually an extreme immediate threat with retarded offenses and excellent coverage, while Manaphy relies on set up to destroy defensively-inclined teams (though if we get down to it, Hoopa does get NP). Manaphy does this job better, due to its good bulk on both sides, but Hoopa-U compensates by being better against offense, since it has options like Sub, AV, Scarf that allow it to predict switches, tank at least two special hits (bar fairy-type attacks) or revenge kill decently, since it can outspeed mega lop.

 

[Delibird Heart]

Lanturn Unlisted -> D Now this might seem weird at first glance, but I assure you that Lanturn has a niche, if little, in OU. First, while it has mediocre 58/75 defenses, it's large 125 HP base stat compensates, making it a very bulky mon if invested. Volt Absorb allows you to completely wall those pesky Electric Types such as Thundurus or Raikou, but also to switch into Rotom-W's very predictable Volt Switch to heal 25%, also causing the opponent to lose a lot of momentum. Lanturn also takes on the role of a cleric through Heal Bell while crippling the Sweepers that might try to set-up on it with Thunder Wave or with Scald. Yes, Lanturn is outclassed as a wall by many other mons or supports such as Chansey, Clefable, and so on, but it fills the unique role of a Electric-Type wall while also bringing Heal Bell support to the table. In my opinion, it at least deserves to be D rank.

EDIT : Lanturn can also stop Charizard-Mega-X (provided it doesn't switch in on +1 DClaw) with Thunder Wave, even after one DD :

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 190-225 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 285-336 (62.7 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

EDIT 2 : Lanturn also makes for a nice keldeo check.

Shameless repost as well. You can also check out Clair's post for additional arguments.

 

[viol and bass]

[of Wobbuffet] I honestly have no clue how this thing is C+. I feel as though people undersell it far too often, and that may be a reason for it's low ranking. I've gone over this in other threads, and I've expressed my feelings towards trappers in multiple different areas. Trappers are some of the best support Pokemon in the game. Every single one is ran on a team exclusively to beat out specific key threats, Wobbuffet is no different. With everyone saying Offense is taking off all over again, I honestly have no idea how the ever living hell this thing is C+. Wobbuffet is an absolute terror to offense, getting at least a guaranteed Kill, and in the right hands multiple. With that said, since it is a support Pokemon, it takes out the biggest threat on any offensive team, kills it, encores it, or even tickles it, and leaves way for X mon to set up and sweep or pursuit it, either way, Wobbuffet does its job, and does it well. Wobbuffet just has the absolute best moves it could possibly ask for, bar maybe a few things, like recovery, but other than that, it is absolutely perfect for taking out Pokemon that otherwise really threaten your team. With offense on the rise, I just cannot possibly see Wobbuffet in C+, and therefore, should move to B- at minimum.

EDIT: This is a hard case to argue since you can't really compare it to other Pokemon in either C+ or B- but if you honestly don't believe Wobbuffet fits in a rank with Mandibuzz, Sylveon and Chesnaught, then I've got to question a few things. Honestly, I feel it should be higher than B-, but I don't want to over shoot it too soon.

Agreeing with all of this, but I'd like to add that Wobbuffet is absolutely not dead weight against more defensive teams. In my view, Wobb is best suited for teams paired with dangerous setup sweepers like BD Azu, Tail Glow Manaphy, DD Zard X, etc., because encoring essentially any status-category move, even actual status moves thanks to Safeguard, leads to absolutely free setup while the opponent is forced to switch out. This is enormously useful, and Wobb's use is forcing the opponent to either lose a mon, or to allow BD azu set up for free while getting no damage on Wobb or Azu. It's worth noting that against more defensive teams, this can almost universally be done multiple times. I think its consistent utility against offense combined with its absurd fucking-over of more defensive teams absolutely should grant Wobb a higher ranking.

 

[Flarowak]

Mega Pidgeot B- => B Before using this thing, I didn't understand why in the world people thought it was viable at all tbh. However, after giving it a try it might be my favorite pokemon to use in the tier atm. 100% accurate hurricanes, decent coverage, with a great speed tier and really good special atk makes this thing a real threat. A big down side I see to it is the immediate speed and and better coverage lost by not using Torn-t, and I concede that be plenty enough reason to not use it over Torn-T. I do however think it outclasses everthing in B- right now. I'll post up some replays to try and provide some solid backup when I get the chance.

 

[Taliheim]

To piggyback on AM's comments, by the nature of this thread, it is both A.) inaccurate since it's built completely on opinions, of which we cannot be sure all of them are facts (though a lot are), and B.) The metagame changes too fast for it to keep up, meaning that it's better for generalizations - I mean, it's really hard to tell the difference between, say, A+ and A. The big jumps for me seem to be between S -> A+, A -> A-, B -> B-, and C- > D. That's honestly it.

ANYWAYS, so this post isn't just a personal rant:

Hoopa-U S -> A+: Agree. Based soley on the VIABILITY of the Pokemon, it belongs more in A+, since the metagame's gotten more offensive and a standard moveset has been established, meaning the possibility of "counters" now, albeit pretty shaky. It's still one of the hardest hitters in the game, if not THE hardest, but it falls to any faster U-Turner and gets overwhelmed easily by the more common offensive teams. My opinion on its COMPETITIVENESS is still pro-ban since it basically nullifies Stall as a playstyle, but that's not for this thread, and will remain contained in Policy Review whenever I go around to posting it.

Suicune B+ -> A-: Agree. On one hand, it just feels better in A-. As for opinions I can actually back up with some kind of believable evidence, its ability to get merely 3HKOd by common Offensive Pokemon is a great asset to a lot of balance teams in this offensive metagame. Personally, I think that Roar is the better option over Sleep Talk, since a lot of Pokemon that can't break it will just try to set up on it instead, turning Suicune's supposed niche right on its head. While it'll have trouble boosting when it's rest-looping, it'll only really rest-loop against offensive Pokemon and dedicated wallbreakers, the former of which can be beaten with just one boost most of the time, and the latter of which can get PP-Stalled, especially with no Sleep Talk.

Mega Aerodactyl A- -> A: Disagree. While I love this Pokemon, it's viability simply hasn't increased, mainly because of the prevalence of Priority and its 4MSS. Nothing that other people haven't already outlined.

All the talk about M-Latios: It's fine in D, maybe even E. I support locking its tiering and blacklisting it from discussion, but not unranking it unless it's considered E material, since E technically isn't ranked anymore.

M-Pidgeot B- -> B: Agree. It should at least be ranked with M-Sceptile; its speed tier is still good despite being outsped by the likes of Weavile and friends, it hits hard enough to deal with offense after the faster Pokemon are eliminated, and has Work Up to blow through the common Balance builds, which usually only have one fastmon to outspeed it. It's good in B, anyways. I'd be against any higher raise, as that would be overselling it.

 

[TheNegativeOne]

Suicune: B+ --> A-
No opinion. I barely ever use Suicune. Seems like it would fit in A- though.

Mega Aerodactyl: A- --> A
Disagree
It's good, has a good matchup against both offense and defensive based teams, having alright sweeping potential, and decent coverage. It can even pursuit trap, if needed.
However, it suffers from 4MSS so much, it makes Mega Metagross blush. It's extremely weak to almost all forms of priority. Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, Ice Shard, Neutrality to Mach Punch, etc. and while it's bulk is acceptable for a mon that does what it does, it's still by no means tanky. Honestly, A- fits it perfectly. Leave it where it is.

Now the big one:
Hoopa Unbound: S --> A+
Strongly, wholeheartedly, AGREE
This thing's overhyped as hell. It's got that fresh factory new smell of being a brand new toy, and everyone immediately loves it. But eventually, the more you use it, the more you notice it's flaws. It's typing is utter garbage defensively, has a mediocre speed tier, and horrid defensive bulk. That's not to say Hoopa U's bad, oh god no it's great, but it's not S Tier worthy. It applies a lot of pressure instantly, can almost always function well on any offensive oriented team, and has great coverage. While that's great and all, I don't believe it warrants an S Rank. Lower it to A+, and let's see what happens.

Mega Pidgeot: B- --> B
Could NOT agree more
I myself, don't use Mega Pidgeot often. It, however, has good coverage, an always-hit-perfect-accuracy STAB Hurricane, a good speed tier, a good special attack, and can actually provide some decent pressure. However, and I KNOW I'm beating a dead horse here, but there's not much of a reason to use Mega Pidgeot over Torn T, unless you're REALLY paranoid of missing Hurricanes. It's a hell of a lot better than every mon in B- and deserves B rank at least. Boost it up.

And if we could start discussing Tangrowth that'd be nice ty

 

[thesecondbest]

Noming Beedrill (Mega) to drop from B to B-..... The meta is just not kind to mega beedrill rn and most volt turn teams are running mega manectric or even mega scizor over mega beedrill.... Garchomp being at almost 1/3 usage right now is just toxic for mega beedrill (can come in on mega beedrill at any time and deal massive damage w/o lifting a finger....) There's just alot of common walls that have no problem with mega beedrill (lando t garchomp any steel type) Its just more on the level of Pidgeot (Mega) in terms of effectiveness at the moment... Its hard to defend mega beedrill on your team unless you built your team around mega bee, and even then its hard to defend using mega beedrill over mega scizor and mega manectric as volt turn megas.

Woah someone's insulting my boi beedrill let me tell it like it is
It is so fast that it even outruns scarf hoopa, which is probably the fastest relevant scarfer below keldeo and lando-t (and even then some lando are adamant) and u-turn has a huge edge over volt in that it can't be blocked by ground types. Sure, this thing hates chomp, but if the team keeps denying chomp to S then this isn't a sufficient reason to drop it. Pjab actually hits really hard, smacking things like torn and clef for large chunks of damage and it blows back latis. Hippo is insanely good and it feels mane, and even then, one whole rank lower seems like enough to me. The only drawback of using bee is it gets worn down super fast, but there is this nice fact- chomp doesn't run recover either. Bee + trapper is a murderous core and overall, since u-turn pivots on these ground types anyway, mane probably dislikes their presence more than bee does. Plus bee has a strong secondary stab and it out speeds lop and hoopa, so I'd rather see it rise than drop tbh.
Tl;Dr u-turn pivots on the ground types and chomp doesn't run rest, so bee is still a huge threat. Mane gets slammed on by stuff like hippo and is already a whole rank higher. Leave bee alone.

 

[teamsnickers]

While I'm not completely against the Hoopa drop, I do think that it still holds a place in S simply because, at the end of the day, the key meta trends are kinda for the sake of not getting shredded by this thing. If it didn't shred balance, the metagame wouldn't have shifted towards offense. Really, the meta has centralised around it in the same way that it centralised around Aegislash, except to a lesser degree. IMO, if something centralises metagame trends, it should be S. However, that is just me - so take what you will from that.

edit: I think a more powerful EQ is more than enough reason for M-Latios to be in at least D for teams which don't happen to have a mega and benefit more from EQ than Latios' other coverage options. If E was still a thing, I'd say put it there; however, it is not, so I'll say bottom of D.

Oh cmon that's ALOT of bs mate..... OLT is FILLED with stall (its disgusting on high ladder tbh....) and bulky teams are everywhere, ofc usage doesn't= viability but when hoopa u is sitting at about 5 percent usage and dropping the mfing metagame is not going to shift because of it, the meta was going offensive before hoopa u, when it came out the hype was real and everywhere used offense and it created a offensive shift in the metagame use, but the tier has settled down now... Things that centralize the metagame are like aegislash in x and y and GARCHOMP right now..... Maybe we're all stupid but very few people are running hoopa u right now.... many things shred balanced and are ran much more then hoopa u at the end of the day it has its place as a wall/stallbreaker ofc but its hard to justify a spot for it on your team in a metagame filled with other wall/stallbreakers that actually have SOME defensive synergy....... and are useful against offense.

I'm not saying hoopa u is bad, its good at what it does and will always be a high rank because of its niche, but to say that its centralizing the metagame is just wrong.. unless you're talking about a month ago

 

[Srn]

Hoopa S-->A+
I never really wanted this thing to be S rank in the first place, it's not that bulky and needs quite a bit support to get in, and that's its biggest flaw. A lack of any resistances doesn't help that case either. Ofc, once its in (which is easier than i'm making it sound) it will 70% of the time grab a kill. Scarf mixed sets will destroy offense and anything other set shits on anything else lol. It's good but getting it in isn't easy, and it doesn't offer much in terms of defensive synergy for teambuilding. I'm for it moving down

Suicune B+-->A-
I think this nom is being overhyped quite a bit. "Stopping physical offense" couldn't be farther from the truth, this thing is a one-time check to anything and you even checking half the shit you do on paper relies on you burning with scald. In reality, suicune will be worn down extremely quickly against an offense team and without lucky scald burns won't do much back against constant physical pressure, unlike something like say, clef, can force out mega lopunny and what not and use that chance to stay healthy alongside immunity to hazards+status. That's not even mentioning that the more popular set, cm/rest/scald/roar, is a total sitting duck for two turns, which is really bad against any kind of team.
It's aimed at bulkier builds but even those have PLENTY of ways to beat suicune, such as taunt, phazing, clear smog amoonguss, perish song celebi, hell even NP togekiss will usually win 1v1.
Ofc, its still obv good, and does very well against unprepared teams, but most are prepared without even knowing it as long as they pack good physical pressure on offense or some way to deal with CM users, which is a necessity for any slower team.
Basically this thing is fine where it is. I see this thing on the level of mamo, slowking, and breloom.

Mega Aero A- --> A
I love mega aero but i can't agree to a raise purely because most of its kills rely on prediction and even then x4 effective attacks won't always ohko. It's not strong enough to get away with predicting the attack incorrectly unless it has a STAB SE move. It's pretty anti-meta at the moment given the rise of thundurus and tornadus, both of which aero revenge kills super well (and remember thundurus does not always have to carry t-wave, 4 attack mixed or np+3 attack sets are fantastic)
Something that's unique about aero is that it really doesn't have to worry about being safe to mega evo, normal aero is already fast enough to outpace most of the shit mega does; unlike zam, diancie, metagross, manectric, etc which is a really nice perk.
But despite that its best at A-, its just doesn't have the raw power of mega zam or lop to go further.

Mega pidgeot B- -->B
I've already voiced my thoughts on this before but its simply not fast or strong enough in my eyes to go higher than it already is. Given its above average but still not fantastic level of power, you'd expect some bulk or speed, but it's still outpaced by weavile and every other fast mega and tied with torn-t, which is kinda disappointing.

Tangrowth B-->B+
Tangy is really good lol. Hp fire lures zor/ferro, eq lures tran, rock slide lures talon, knock off is annoying in general, and even uninvested a leaf storm can kind of dent some stuff on offense which is amazing considering the raw amount of shit this man can check. Even hp ice could be used to beat grounds much much better. Everything from chomp to keld to raikou just falls under this guy's belt and its awesome. He's kinda weak but even that can be fixed with a rarely seen specs set; specs leaf storm+regenerator is really cool. hell even defensive leftovers with sleep powder has a good surprise element along with resisting ground unlike amoongus and venu. Definitely move this guy up, he's on par with B+ mons

And a few more things I wanna nom up.
Amoongus B- --> B
I feel like what amoonguss does is really underappreciated on teams but it's a soft check to an unbelievably wide range of pokemon. Manaphy, keldeo, azu, altaria, diancie, raikou, suicune, clefable, rotom-w and serp are all checked pretty soundly by amoonguss. Ofc, manaphy can break through with psychic, azu's +6 knock off OHKOs, malt's fire blast can pressure pretty well, physical diamond storm diancie can pressure hard, etc etc there are ways to overwhelm it but it checks such a wide range of important pokemon that it really deserves a higher placement.

rotom-h C-->C+
again mostly by virtue of the things it checks it oughta move up. alt, chomp, m-meta (zen is getting rarer b/c meta wants to run lots of coverage/lures), Torn-t, thundurus, scizor, char-y, talon, rachi, volc, togekiss, and mamo; with a combination of t-wave and wisp it shuts down tons of other switch-ins too. Rocks weakness is a bad issue, but atleast its immune to spikes and grounds which set rocks are common switch-ins which get shut down by wisp. It's not a hard counter to much of these and its certainly not difficult to wear down with rocks and constant pressure but by virtue of the raw amount and variety of threats that it can 1v1 it should move up a little.

 

[AM]

You guys do realize that everytime M-Latios is brought up I'm going to delete every comment and reference right? Like do you seriously sit down and say "boy gee willickers I think this is a good idea to bring up Mega Latios" or even better "damn son, maybe I should reply to this comment about Mega Latios to provide my intelligent and marvelous facts that I know for sure. That'll impress all the ladies, hehe this is gonna work." It's always the same people replying and it's always the same people I'm deleting comments on.

Use your brains, stop being morons and entertaining pointless discussion.

Your friendly and sincere OU Moderator
- AM

 

[Eminent Doom]

I just want to give my two cents on Hoopa-U.

Wow, this thing is a monster, as we all know. But it surely is easy to take advantage of. Being so physically frail is super easy to take advantage of, especially with trappers like Bisharp and Weavile running around. It's superb once it gets into battle (this has to be done fairly safely, which is quite difficult to do). I made and tested a team based around Sub-passing M-Lop to Hoopa-U and it really underperformed. It rarely got a kill and most of the time, when I'm looking for a powerful Dark-type to put on my team, 9/10 I'm going to put Weavile in that spot. S-rank is exaggerating it's capabilities. While it's good, it's not the cream of the crop like I feel Zard-X is. A+ is a much more appropriate placement for our eight-limbed fiend.

 

[QueenOfHax]

Hoopa-U was promoted to S-rank without warning after days of discussion where the vast majority agreed that it was A+ material at best. Been said that, it is too flawed to fit in there and I agree that it should be demoted.
Weavile-tier physical bulk, terrible speed for a purely offensive pokemon without access to priority to make up for that (unlike Dragonite, Breloom, Mamoswine and Conkeldurr), horrible defensive typing with only an immunity to a questionable attacking type and nasty weaknesses to fairy and bug (being 4x weak to U-Turn sucks, especially when it's such a common move on Scarfers) and a useless ability are flaws that can't be overlooked. It is one of the best balance and stall destroyers of the tier, but that doesn't matter much when HO is the dominant playstyle right now. So yeah, A+ rank please.

 

[Darkai34]

suicune for a-

its insanely anti meta right now with all these weaviles and shit running around. it's just so unprepared for. it just shuts down almost all forms of physical offense in the tier and is a great stallbreaker too because of pressure. it's not even easy to boost against either because it just shuts you down with a scald burn or roars you out. it has some obvious flaws in sleep talks unreliability and the fact that its constrained to defensive builds only, but those flaws really don't hold it back that badly

not much to say, but suicune is retarded right now and i'm kinda surprised at how moving to a- wasn't on the last discussion slate because the first few weeks of olt have really proven that its a really solid mon right now despite how offensive the meta is

I so agree. It is a very good answer to common threats in the metagame right now (MegaZam, Weavile, Hoopa) but it's not invicible either being worn out by Mega Manectric and Venusaur, so I think A- is perfect for Suicune.