Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Kibblecat]

So I've had some time on my hands this morning (morning in the UK, anyway) and wanted to make a contribution to the Hoopa discussion. I'm not the most regular poster but at the very least I battle enough to be able to put a lot of comprehensible information in one place about my experience, and some calculations.

Hoopa-U S-A+: I'd be opposed to this drop if Hoopa actually checked anything specific, but blanket-checking a play style is an entirely different kettle of fish. Take this with a pinch of salt; I could digress to avoid this drastic oversimplification but I don't think I'll say it any better with a wall of text: I'm not saying that blanket-checking balance is less of a viability factor than checking [insert x common threats here], because it's not - if anything, it's more of a pro-hoops factor, but things that are used as complete or even partial checks to whole play styles or cores (e.g. Azumarill as a check to sand, or Thundurus as a check to offense) are generally used to do that because they check key members of that play style, which Hoopa just doesn't even under such a deliberately broad heading as 'balance'; for example, Azumarill checks choice locked Tar and non-offensive variants of Tar, and while healthy she can force out Excadrill, further she's also a go-to check to some of the most notable partners for sand offense, Keldeo and Heatran. She's a great check to sand-offense for that reason, but that's by no means to say that she checks every common partner for sand offense; her matchup with Ferro isn't a favourable one, and the dual-weather addition (of ZardY and, for example, Venusaur) is also a great way around Azu. That doesn't make her less of a great check to sand offense.

However, having digressed with an example that breaks down the match ups that let one thing check a play style/core, back to Hoopa-U: the wall breaking potential is huge, but does he actually check a large proportion of the metagame? Well, no. Let's in the same way break down Hoopa's matchup with balance. To start with, I'm going to base my argument around this, the Hoopa that NJNP built a team around and reached #2 with:

Hoopa-U @ Life Orb
Ability: Magician
32 HP / 48 Atk / 252 Spa / 176 Spe
Naive Nature
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Dark Pulse / Knock Off / Hyperspace Fury
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch

Lets analyse some examples of how he matches up against the most common or rising in popularity balanced defensive threats:

252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 265-313 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 180-213 (58.2 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

So add that to 2 turns worth of Life Orb recoil and 2 turns of sandstorm, plus potential Stealth Rock damage, and Hoopa has to rely on Hippo coming in on him to get the 2HKO. Moreover, he has to come in on Psychic/Dark Pulse to lose too; Hippo can survive the combo of a Psychic and either a Drain Punch or a Gunk Shot:

0 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 74-88 (17.6 - 20.9%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 58-70 (13.8 - 16.6%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

So, Hoopa can win in one given situation; Hippo switches in on a 100% healthy Hoopa-U's Dark Pulse or Psychic, or on Drain Punch/Gunk Shot after some prior damage ready to take the Psychic. Some check, heh. NEXT!

Landoge - common on balance and offense. Non-defensive variants switch in on 3 out of 6 potential coverage moves (all barring HP Ice, Dark Pulse and Psychic which in and of itself isn't even close to a guaranteed OHKO without SR up) and OHKO with U-Turn or EQ. Heck, even Superpower can put it in LO recoil/SR range, and Hoopa doesn't want to come in on a Knock Off either. Defensive variants can also 1HKO with U-Turn, very easily (no calc required there) and defensive variant's EQ puts Hoopa into LO range after rocks:

0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 225-265 (72.8 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 268-316 (86.7 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Superpower vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 215-253 (69.5 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 174-205 (56.3 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And, to prove that non-defensive variants can switch in on anything but the aforementioned coverage:

252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 227-269 (69.8 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And for completeness, a healthy defensive Landoge can switch in too and is at liberty to begin investing in Speed to win:

252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 247-292 (64.6 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 278-329 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Landoge can, for example, run a Jolly Nature with 248 HP / 156 Def / 8 SpD / 92 Spe, (yes, I've checked - this does beat out Impish defensively while EVing for the same speed creep) which will outspeed Naive 176 Spe Hoopa, maintaining the same level of special bulk as the standard Def spread, and also a good amount of defensive presence to continue checking what it usually does. Granted, Hoopa can also run more speed to creep on this Landoge, but Hoopa only has 32 EV's

So, Hoopa can stop standard Landoge from switching in without baiting a Drain Punch or Gunk Shot (both of which deal less than 25%), to an extent, but can't force a healthy Landoge out. And, the above spread can be used to specifically beat Hoopa. Given that Hoopa is considered a huge threat to balance, regardless of it's ranking, I can see things like Landoge and other balance staples starting to run specifics to beat it.

Similarly, to quickly touch some other examples: Rotom-W loses to any combination of two attacks, Hoopa runs enough Atk to 2HKO Chansey, Ferro and Tran with Drain Punch, and he beats Clefable/Sylveon with Gunk Shot, wrecks Mega-Venusaur with Psychic... the list goes on. BUT he can't safely switch in on any of them without tricking prediction 50:50s. Not one. Literally none of those. Nor can he beat them 1v1 assuming both are healthy. Well, maybe Chansey, but she's a bit different and if you're letting your Chansey stay in to get 2HKO'd by Hoopa on your balanced team, you've something wrong or you're on a 1 for 1 exchange with Hoopa and whatever you can revenge kill it with.

In terms of his matchup against balance's key offensive threats, aside from those already mentioned:

Alakazam - switches in on his sash and wins with Dazzling Gleam or hits a weakened Hoopa with Focus Blast. Shakier match up, but Hoopa was bound to get a few. I don't think it makes Hoopa a good Zam check as Hoopa is much more easy to wear down.
Azumarill: 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 180-213 (58.2 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 282-333 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Same as most of the others - Hoopa's never switching in but can win 1v1 with Gunk Shot. Azu can come in on anything other than a Gunk Shot.
Mega Altaria: 252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 584-690 (188.9 - 223.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO. So, same thing. Altaria can take anything other than a Gunk Shot and 1HKO, and if she's Jolly (as in the calc) she outspeeds Hoopa too.
Bisharp: 252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 251-296 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Guaranteed to atleast put Hoopa into LO range with Sucker Punch after Rocks and thats assuming a healthy Hoopa. Bisharp can switch in on anything except Drain Punch. If it's a Dark Pulse, then thats a guaranteed kill right there after Rocks given that Hoopa will have already taken LO damage. And, for the record, this Bisharp calc is Jolly, which doesn't outspeed Hoopa anyway. Hoopa switching in on a Knock Off is: (98.3 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO, and Adamant Sucker Punch wins.
Either variant of Charizard: Can take any of Hoopa's attacks outside of SR, given their unnaturally high SpD, outspeed, and 1HKO with Dragon Claw/Flare Blitz or Flamethrower, respectively.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 288-339 (93.2 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO. 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 32 HP / 0- SpD Hoopa Unbound in Sun: 279-328 (90.2 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO. Even if Rocks are up, preventing the Zard switch in, Hoopa loses on its own switch in and loses 1v1.
Mega Diancie: Switches in on anything except Psychic ((89.6 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO) and wins. 252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 32 HP / 0- SpD Hoopa Unbound: 320-380 (103.5 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Dragonite: 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 222-262 (71.8 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Hoopa does a maximum of 42% with Psychic before breaking Multiscale
Garchomp: This one's not a bad matchup for Hoopa (think of Chomp's offensive variant Dragon Claw as unboosted Zard X without the Tough Claws boost - i.e. guaranteed 2HKO) but again it's the speed tier that makes it entirely situation based.
Mega Gardevoir: 252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 161-191 (58.1 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Gardevoir can switch in on anything except a Gunk Shot (Dark Pulse is it's next best hit and does up to 78.7% before Garde mega's) and 1HKOs with Hyper Voice.
(Mega) Gyarados: Mega loses to Drain Punch even after Intimidate and regular loses to Dark Pulse depending on speed investment, but Hoopa doesn't want to switch in on a setup or an attack as he can't 1HKO at all but is cleanly 2HKO'd by the combination of a Waterfall and any other attack on offensive variants of Gyara.
Jirachi: Scarf comes in on anything except Dark Pulse and wins with U-Turn. Hoopa can't switch in on any of her attacks, especially due to the serene-grace'd burn/para/flinch/whatever chances. Defensive variants do the same albeit with less of an immediate threat to a healthy Hoopa.
Keldeo: Actually one of Hoopa's better match ups 1v1 but he still can't switch in. Only Specs and Life Orb can come close to a 1HKO with Secret Sword. Specs is guaranteed, Life Orb is guaranteed post-SR. For reference, without any boosts: 252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 210-247 (67.9 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Keldeo can absorb any of Hoopas other attacks and threaten it though, and LO keldeo will win after Hoopa takes one hit from his own LO.
Kyurem-B: Given Drain Punch recovery, possibly one of the only things Hoopa can hope to switch in on. Once. Even then, if Kyurem's carrying a life orb, Fusion Bolt does a maximum of 85% which can some of the time put Hoopa into LO range again after rocks. Thats a good chunk more than an Ice beam, which goes to show how crippling Hoopas low base Def really is. Kyurem outspeeds 176 Spe Hoopa, too, if it's running 252 Spe itself, regardless of nature.
Latis: Same story coming up; they can switch in on anything but the right coverage move (Dark Pulse). But Hoopa can't come in at all except on Scarf'd Latios variants locked into Psyshock or another coverage move. If Hoopa's healthy it can most of the time (only most of the time) survive a Draco Meteor after rocks, but then also runs the risk of dying some of the time to it's own life orb recoil. Another one of Hoopa's better match ups but it's again a prediction game.
Mega-Lopunny: Can't switch in, period, except maybe on a Dark Pulse while healthy (39.8 - 46.8%), but gets the guaranteed 1HKO with HJK and comes pretty close to guaranteed with Return. Fake Out nets the kill with Return too. Even without that, Return puts Hoopa into LO range most of the time (all the time after SR).
Magnezone: Another of Hoopa's better match ups but he still can't switch in on a Thunderbolt as scarf'd variants will still net the kill most of the time due to Hoopa's life orb. 252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 32 HP / 0- SpD Hoopa Unbound: 132-156 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO. Hoopa can't switch in on a healthy Specs Zone at all as it can't take either TBolt or Flash Cannon twice and can only 1HKO Zone with Dark Pulse after SR. Drain Punch recovery might swing it. Zone is still possibly the only guaranteed good opportunity for Hoopa to switch in yet though.
Mega Metagross: Another common sense one which I won't provide calcs for - it outspeeds Hoopa and wins with Meteor Mash (it's a guaranteed OHKO from Jolly/Hasty Meta), but Meta can't switch in on a Dark Pulse.
Raikou: Oh goody - we found a safe switch in! Vest Raikou does a maximum of 45% with Thunderbolt while taking the following from Gunk Shot: 48 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 221-261 (68.8 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Specs Raikou isn't safe for Hoopa to switch in on, however: 252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 32 HP / 0- SpD Hoopa Unbound: 180-213 (58.2 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Both variants can still severely hamper Hoopa's health given they outspeed anyway.
(Mega) Scizor: 252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 208-246 (74 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 181-214 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Both Knock Off and Superpower from Mega Scizor do more to Hoopa, as does Life Orbed or Banded regular Scizor (who also can carry U-Turn). So this one is never a safe switch in for Hoopa unless it's so low that even a roost on the switch won't save it.
Serperior: 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 32 HP / 0- SpD Hoopa Unbound: 132-156 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO. Again, Hoopa's never getting a safe switch in here but Serperior can't switch in either.
Starmie: A-la Latis, except Starmie's a little less threatening. That said, Hoopa doesn't want to switch in on a Hydro Pump from the offensive spinner. This is without the analytic boost: 252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 32 HP / 0- SpD Hoopa Unbound: 173-204 (55.9 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Tyranitar: Again, common sense one. He's never taking a Drain Punch, ever, but Hoopa can't switch in on any of Jolly/Adamant 252 Atk Tar's attacks. 252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 204-240 (66 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage. 252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 253-298 (81.8 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage. Stone Edge from Scarf'd Tar actually comes close to guaranteed 1HKO after SS and LO damage, and achieves it if you throw rocks in too.
Mega Venusaur: Offensive variants threaten Hoopa on the switch with either STAB or status of some sort so again he's not an easy opportunity for Venusaur. But, one of the few so far that never wants to stay in on Hoopa even when healthy.
Weavile: More of an offense inclusion than a balance one, but in today's meta trend it's worth an inclusion. It can switch in on Dark Pulse or Psychic and proceed to reck with Icicle Crash or Knock Off, both of which can 1HKO with a little bit of prior damage. Knock off will guaranteed 1HKO after life orb damage or rocks, and Icicle Crash will 1HKO after both. 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 296-348 (95.7 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO. However in terms of the switch in the other way, Weavile is even sometimes 1HKO'd by Gunk Shot (always after Rocks): 48 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 247-291 (87.9 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO.

So, there you have it. I might not have contributed anything anybody didn't already know, but I've put a lot of information in one place and made a fairly detailed analysis of the individual match ups of what I feel is the most diverse set, and certainly the one that has seen most success higher up the ladder. I'll end on a disclaimer: yes, Hoopa can run Scarf, and yes he can run Substitute. And all manner of other things. Here I've simply picked apart his offensive presence at it's most volatile and elaborated on his best chance against most threats. If I were to analyse scarf'd sets or the prediction games coming from Sub, I'd be here for even longer than I already have been. My conclusion:

So, he's a terror for balance. I've not listed anything at all here that he can't threaten, mostly by pressuring switch ins. But, the fact that there's two (fairly niche) things in this whole list (Chansey and AV Raikou) that aren't any threat at all to a healthy Hoopa, really speaks volumes. Hoopa can't force most of these things out if they're healthy, even if Hoopa is too. He's definitely a top A+ threat due to his uncanny knack of forcing anything up to 2 for 1 trades against balance, but based on his match ups against most of the above it's always going to be trades given that he can rarely rely on the Drain Punch recovery due to the thin coverage he gains from it (heck he's even beaten by Ferro's Gyro Ball through Drain Punch recovery and he's not that fast). I suppose that despite the fact that he first appears to have the capability to break through an awful lot of things, he'll have trouble doing it more than once or twice in a game and he's only going to do that if you build the team around letting him (hence the prevalence of the VoltTurn support for him - it's not even just a good way to support him, it's borderline required to make him work). And this is the key issue here - in theory he can break the balanced play style but in practice if your opponent carefully chooses what he trades for Hoopa, Hoopa can become a dead team slot if you're relying on him to beat anything specific. And, to return to the initial point, Hoopa can cause blanket-problems for balanced, but it's hard to say that he's a reliable check for just about anything specific or individual on this list. Leaving a pokemon in the S rank who relies on winning prediction games to actually succeed in wall breaking is a pretty unintuitive call, if you ask me. Not that anyone would, but hey. Just my two (thousand) cents.

Edit: a clarification, that this was mostly meant to demonstrate that he's not even a totally reliable winner against a well played balance build. I'd really support him knocking down below A+ into A or A-, to be honest, but I'll grant that that'd be a more controversial discussion.

 

[Shruggy]

So I've had some time on my hands this morning (morning in the UK, anyway) and wanted to make a contribution to the Hoopa discussion. I'm not the most regular poster but at the very least I battle enough to be able to put a lot of comprehensible information in one place about my experience, and some calculations.

Hoopa-U S-A+: I'd be opposed to this drop if Hoopa actually checked anything specific, but blanket-checking a play style is an entirely different kettle of fish. Take this with a pinch of salt; I could digress to avoid this drastic oversimplification but I don't think I'll say it any better with a wall of text: I'm not saying that blanket-checking balance is less of a viability factor than checking [insert x common threats here], because it's not - if anything, it's more of a pro-hoops factor, but things that are used as complete or even partial checks to whole play styles or cores (e.g. Azumarill as a check to sand, or Thundurus as a check to offense) are generally used to do that because they check key members of that play style, which Hoopa just doesn't even under such a deliberately broad heading as 'balance'; for example, Azumarill checks choice locked Tar and non-offensive variants of Tar, and while healthy she can force out Excadrill, further she's also a go-to check to some of the most notable partners for sand offense, Keldeo and Heatran. She's a great check to sand-offense for that reason, but that's by no means to say that she checks every common partner for sand offense; her matchup with Ferro isn't a favourable one, and the dual-weather addition (of ZardY and, for example, Venusaur) is also a great way around Azu. That doesn't make her less of a great check to sand offense.

However, having digressed with an example that breaks down the match ups that let one thing check a play style/core, back to Hoopa-U: the wall breaking potential is huge, but does he actually check a large proportion of the metagame? Well, no. Let's in the same way break down Hoopa's matchup with balance. To start with, I'm going to base my argument around this, the Hoopa that NJNP built a team around and reached #2 with:

Hoopa-U @ Life Orb
Ability: Magician
32 HP / 48 Atk / 252 Spa / 176 Spe
Naive Nature
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Dark Pulse / Knock Off / Hyperspace Fury
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch

Lets analyse some examples of how he matches up against the most common or rising in popularity balanced defensive threats:

252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 265-313 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 180-213 (58.2 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

So add that to 2 turns worth of Life Orb recoil and 2 turns of sandstorm, plus potential Stealth Rock damage, and Hoopa has to rely on Hippo coming in on him to get the 2HKO. Moreover, he has to come in on Psychic/Dark Pulse to lose too; Hippo can survive the combo of a Psychic and either a Drain Punch or a Gunk Shot:

0 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 74-88 (17.6 - 20.9%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 58-70 (13.8 - 16.6%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery

So, Hoopa can win in one given situation; Hippo switches in on a 100% healthy Hoopa-U's Dark Pulse or Psychic, or on Drain Punch/Gunk Shot after some prior damage ready to take the Psychic. Some check, heh. NEXT!

Landoge - common on balance and offense. Non-defensive variants switch in on 3 out of 6 potential coverage moves (all barring HP Ice, Dark Pulse and Psychic which in and of itself isn't even close to a guaranteed OHKO without SR up) and OHKO with U-Turn or EQ. Heck, even Superpower can put it in LO recoil/SR range, and Hoopa doesn't want to come in on a Knock Off either. Defensive variants can also 1HKO with U-Turn, very easily (no calc required there) and defensive variant's EQ puts Hoopa into LO range after rocks:

0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 225-265 (72.8 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 268-316 (86.7 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Superpower vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 215-253 (69.5 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 174-205 (56.3 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And, to prove that non-defensive variants can switch in on anything but the aforementioned coverage:

252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 227-269 (69.8 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And for completeness, a healthy defensive Landoge can switch in too and is at liberty to begin investing in Speed to win:

252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 247-292 (64.6 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 278-329 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Landoge can, for example, run a Jolly Nature with 248 HP / 156 Def / 8 SpD / 92 Spe, (yes, I've checked - this does beat out Impish defensively while EVing for the same speed creep) which will outspeed Naive 176 Spe Hoopa, maintaining the same level of special bulk as the standard Def spread, and also a good amount of defensive presence to continue checking what it usually does. Granted, Hoopa can also run more speed to creep on this Landoge, but Hoopa only has 32 EV's

So, Hoopa can stop standard Landoge from switching in without baiting a Drain Punch or Gunk Shot (both of which deal less than 25%), to an extent, but can't force a healthy Landoge out. And, the above spread can be used to specifically beat Hoopa. Given that Hoopa is considered a huge threat to balance, regardless of it's ranking, I can see things like Landoge and other balance staples starting to run specifics to beat it.

Similarly, to quickly touch some other examples: Rotom-W loses to any combination of two attacks, Hoopa runs enough Atk to 2HKO Chansey, Ferro and Tran with Drain Punch, and he beats Clefable/Sylveon with Gunk Shot, wrecks Mega-Venusaur with Psychic... the list goes on. BUT he can't safely switch in on any of them without tricking prediction 50:50s. Not one. Literally none of those. Nor can he beat them 1v1 assuming both are healthy. Well, maybe Chansey, but she's a bit different and if you're letting your Chansey stay in to get 2HKO'd by Hoopa on your balanced team, you've something wrong or you're on a 1 for 1 exchange with Hoopa and whatever you can revenge kill it with.

In terms of his matchup against balance's key offensive threats, aside from those already mentioned:

Alakazam - switches in on his sash and wins with Dazzling Gleam or hits a weakened Hoopa with Focus Blast. Shakier match up, but Hoopa was bound to get a few. I don't think it makes Hoopa a good Zam check as Hoopa is much more easy to wear down.
Azumarill: 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 180-213 (58.2 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 282-333 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Same as most of the others - Hoopa's never switching in but can win 1v1 with Gunk Shot. Azu can come in on anything other than a Gunk Shot.
Mega Altaria: 252 Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 584-690 (188.9 - 223.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO. So, same thing. Altaria can take anything other than a Gunk Shot and 1HKO, and if she's Jolly (as in the calc) she outspeeds Hoopa too.
Bisharp: 252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 251-296 (81.2 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Guaranteed to atleast put Hoopa into LO range with Sucker Punch after Rocks and thats assuming a healthy Hoopa. Bisharp can switch in on anything except Drain Punch. If it's a Dark Pulse, then thats a guaranteed kill right there after Rocks given that Hoopa will have already taken LO damage. And, for the record, this Bisharp calc is Jolly, which doesn't outspeed Hoopa anyway. Hoopa switching in on a Knock Off is: (98.3 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO, and Adamant Sucker Punch wins.
Either variant of Charizard: Can take any of Hoopa's attacks outside of SR, given their unnaturally high SpD, outspeed, and 1HKO with Dragon Claw/Flare Blitz or Flamethrower, respectively.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 288-339 (93.2 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO. 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 32 HP / 0- SpD Hoopa Unbound in Sun: 279-328 (90.2 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO. Even if Rocks are up, preventing the Zard switch in, Hoopa loses on its own switch in and loses 1v1.
Mega Diancie: Switches in on anything except Psychic ((89.6 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO) and wins. 252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 32 HP / 0- SpD Hoopa Unbound: 320-380 (103.5 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Dragonite: 252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 222-262 (71.8 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Hoopa does a maximum of 42% with Psychic before breaking Multiscale
Garchomp: This one's not a bad matchup for Hoopa (think of Chomp's offensive variant Dragon Claw as unboosted Zard X without the Tough Claws boost - i.e. guaranteed 2HKO) but again it's the speed tier that makes it entirely situation based.
Mega Gardevoir: 252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 161-191 (58.1 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Gardevoir can switch in on anything except a Gunk Shot (Dark Pulse is it's next best hit and does up to 78.7% before Garde mega's) and 1HKOs with Hyper Voice.
(Mega) Gyarados: Mega loses to Drain Punch even after Intimidate and regular loses to Dark Pulse depending on speed investment, but Hoopa doesn't want to switch in on a setup or an attack as he can't 1HKO at all but is cleanly 2HKO'd by the combination of a Waterfall and any other attack on offensive variants of Gyara.
Jirachi: Scarf comes in on anything except Dark Pulse and wins with U-Turn. Hoopa can't switch in on any of her attacks, especially due to the serene-grace'd burn/para/flinch/whatever chances. Defensive variants do the same albeit with less of an immediate threat to a healthy Hoopa.
Keldeo: Actually one of Hoopa's better match ups 1v1 but he still can't switch in. Only Specs and Life Orb can come close to a 1HKO with Secret Sword. Specs is guaranteed, Life Orb is guaranteed post-SR. For reference, without any boosts: 252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 210-247 (67.9 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Keldeo can absorb any of Hoopas other attacks and threaten it though, and LO keldeo will win after Hoopa takes one hit from his own LO.
Kyurem-B: Given Drain Punch recovery, possibly one of the only things Hoopa can hope to switch in on. Once. Even then, if Kyurem's carrying a life orb, Fusion Bolt does a maximum of 85% which can some of the time put Hoopa into LO range again after rocks. Thats a good chunk more than an Ice beam, which goes to show how crippling Hoopas low base Def really is. Kyurem outspeeds 176 Spe Hoopa, too, if it's running 252 Spe itself, regardless of nature.
Latis: Same story coming up; they can switch in on anything but the right coverage move (Dark Pulse). But Hoopa can't come in at all except on Scarf'd Latios variants locked into Psyshock or another coverage move. If Hoopa's healthy it can most of the time (only most of the time) survive a Draco Meteor after rocks, but then also runs the risk of dying some of the time to it's own life orb recoil. Another one of Hoopa's better match ups but it's again a prediction game.
Mega-Lopunny: Can't switch in, period, except maybe on a Dark Pulse while healthy (39.8 - 46.8%), but gets the guaranteed 1HKO with HJK and comes pretty close to guaranteed with Return. Fake Out nets the kill with Return too. Even without that, Return puts Hoopa into LO range most of the time (all the time after SR).
Magnezone: Another of Hoopa's better match ups but he still can't switch in on a Thunderbolt as scarf'd variants will still net the kill most of the time due to Hoopa's life orb. 252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 32 HP / 0- SpD Hoopa Unbound: 132-156 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO. Hoopa can't switch in on a healthy Specs Zone at all as it can't take either TBolt or Flash Cannon twice and can only 1HKO Zone with Dark Pulse after SR. Drain Punch recovery might swing it. Zone is still possibly the only guaranteed good opportunity for Hoopa to switch in yet though.
Mega Metagross: Another common sense one which I won't provide calcs for - it outspeeds Hoopa and wins with Meteor Mash (it's a guaranteed OHKO from Jolly/Hasty Meta), but Meta can't switch in on a Dark Pulse.
Raikou: Oh goody - we found a safe switch in! Vest Raikou does a maximum of 45% with Thunderbolt while taking the following from Gunk Shot: 48 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 221-261 (68.8 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Specs Raikou isn't safe for Hoopa to switch in on, however: 252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 32 HP / 0- SpD Hoopa Unbound: 180-213 (58.2 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Both variants can still severely hamper Hoopa's health given they outspeed anyway.
(Mega) Scizor: 252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 208-246 (74 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 181-214 (58.5 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Both Knock Off and Superpower from Mega Scizor do more to Hoopa, as does Life Orbed or Banded regular Scizor (who also can carry U-Turn). So this one is never a safe switch in for Hoopa unless it's so low that even a roost on the switch won't save it.
Serperior: 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 32 HP / 0- SpD Hoopa Unbound: 132-156 (42.7 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO. Again, Hoopa's never getting a safe switch in here but Serperior can't switch in either.
Starmie: A-la Latis, except Starmie's a little less threatening. That said, Hoopa doesn't want to switch in on a Hydro Pump from the offensive spinner. This is without the analytic boost: 252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 32 HP / 0- SpD Hoopa Unbound: 173-204 (55.9 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Tyranitar: Again, common sense one. He's never taking a Drain Punch, ever, but Hoopa can't switch in on any of Jolly/Adamant 252 Atk Tar's attacks. 252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 204-240 (66 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage. 252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 253-298 (81.8 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage. Stone Edge from Scarf'd Tar actually comes close to guaranteed 1HKO after SS and LO damage, and achieves it if you throw rocks in too.
Mega Venusaur: Offensive variants threaten Hoopa on the switch with either STAB or status of some sort so again he's not an easy opportunity for Venusaur. But, one of the few so far that never wants to stay in on Hoopa even when healthy.
Weavile: More of an offense inclusion than a balance one, but in today's meta trend it's worth an inclusion. It can switch in on Dark Pulse or Psychic and proceed to reck with Icicle Crash or Knock Off, both of which can 1HKO with a little bit of prior damage. Knock off will guaranteed 1HKO after life orb damage or rocks, and Icicle Crash will 1HKO after both. 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 296-348 (95.7 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO. However in terms of the switch in the other way, Weavile is even sometimes 1HKO'd by Gunk Shot (always after Rocks): 48 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 247-291 (87.9 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO.

So, there you have it. I might not have contributed anything anybody didn't already know, but I've put a lot of information in one place and made a fairly detailed analysis of the individual match ups of what I feel is the most diverse set, and certainly the one that has seen most success higher up the ladder. I'll end on a disclaimer: yes, Hoopa can run Scarf, and yes he can run Substitute. And all manner of other things. Here I've simply picked apart his offensive presence at it's most volatile and elaborated on his best chance against most threats. If I were to analyse scarf'd sets or the prediction games coming from Sub, I'd be here for even longer than I already have been. My conclusion:

So, he's a terror for balance. I've not listed anything at all here that he can't threaten, mostly by pressuring switch ins. But, the fact that there's two (fairly niche) things in this whole list (Chansey and AV Raikou) that aren't any threat at all to a healthy Hoopa, really speaks volumes. Hoopa can't force most of these things out if they're healthy, even if Hoopa is too. He's definitely a top A+ threat due to his uncanny knack of forcing anything up to 2 for 1 trades against balance, but based on his match ups against most of the above it's always going to be trades given that he can rarely rely on the Drain Punch recovery due to the thin coverage he gains from it (heck he's even beaten by Ferro's Gyro Ball through Drain Punch recovery and he's not that fast). I suppose that despite the fact that he first appears to have the capability to break through an awful lot of things, he'll have trouble doing it more than once or twice in a game and he's only going to do that if you build the team around letting him (hence the prevalence of the VoltTurn support for him - it's not even just a good way to support him, it's borderline required to make him work). And this is the key issue here - in theory he can break the balanced play style but in practice if your opponent carefully chooses what he trades for Hoopa, Hoopa can become a dead team slot if you're relying on him to beat anything specific. And, to return to the initial point, Hoopa can cause blanket-problems for balanced, but it's hard to say that he's a reliable check for just about anything specific or individual on this list. Leaving a pokemon in the S rank who relies on winning prediction games to actually succeed in wall breaking is a pretty unintuitive call, if you ask me. Not that anyone would, but hey. Just my two (thousand) cents.

Edit: a clarification, that this was mostly meant to demonstrate that he's not even a totally reliable winner against a well played balance build. I'd really support him knocking down below A+ into A or A-, to be honest, but I'll grant that that'd be a more controversial discussion.

So the gist of what you are saying if you will allow me to broadly summarise is that on about 9/10 mons given it can 2hko and it's not good in straight up 1v1s?

Makes sense as to why it's often paired with cb Scizor or megaman as it can pivot in and out relatively easily negating the switch-in issue to a large degree. Fact of the matter is once it's in (it's really not hard in practice) it is devastating to deal with and unlike other mons such as manaphy or zard-x there aren't really any decent counters only soft checks

 

[Kibblecat]

So the gist of what you are saying if you will allow me to broadly summarise is that on about 9/10 mons given it can 2hko and it's not good in straight up 1v1s?

Makes sense as to why it's often paired with cb Scizor or megaman as it can pivot in and out relatively easily negating the switch-in issue to a large degree. Fact of the matter is once it's in (it's really not hard in practice) it is devastating to deal with and unlike other mons such as manaphy or zard-x there aren't really any decent counters only soft checks

More or less, but I'm putting it so as to properly demonstrate that even once it is in, it's usually a 2-for-1 trade at best, and faced up with a healthy opponent sometimes even a 1 for 1 or even not a kill. Put that way rather than describing them as 1v1's makes the point that even in a 1v1 situation, it's still taking up a team slot, and has to be able to take away the right opponent in order to open up for the rest of the team's win cons.

EDIT: In that regard, it's biggest problem isn't getting in once, it's getting out and back in again with sufficient integrity as to continue doing it's job. It's great at pulling apart balance cores by picking out the problematic member, but it's just simply not to be relied upon to check more than one thing on each enemy team, restricting it to only covering niche threats or redundancies that are covered elsewhere anyway. The advantage is the use of coverage to be able to pick your target, but his longevity and how easy he is to switch around mean that he can be stopped from doing the job that his pro offences are supposed to. And if he can't do that job reliably (namely, wall breaking), then he's not as viable as even an A+.

 

[Shruggy]

More or less, but I'm putting it so as to properly demonstrate that even once it is in, it's usually a 2-for-1 trade at best, and faced up with a healthy opponent sometimes even a 1 for 1 or even not a kill. Put that way rather than describing them as 1v1's makes the point that even in a 1v1 situation, it's still taking up a team slot, and has to be able to take away the right opponent in order to open up for the rest of the team's win cons.

EDIT: In that regard, it's biggest problem isn't getting in once, it's getting out and back in again with sufficient integrity as to continue doing it's job. It's great at pulling apart balance cores by picking out the problematic member, but it's just simply not to be relied upon to check more than one thing on each enemy team, restricting it to only covering niche threats or redundancies that are covered elsewhere anyway. The advantage is the use of coverage to be able to pick your target, but his longevity and how easy he is to switch around mean that he can be stopped from doing the job that his pro offences are supposed to. And if he can't do that job reliably (namely, wall breaking), then he's not as viable as even an A+.

I literally went to ou ladder picked someone random from the top 10 and the latest replay was this game:

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-267731818

The Hoopa player lost but Hoopa itself put in a ton of work taking 35% from a rotom-w Hydro then straight up koing the switch in torn-t. Proceeded to kill 3 mons that game thanks to fairly easy and obvious U-turns that the opponent can't really prevent. I don't see why you maintain it is 'easy to switch around' when it clearly is not and the big thing about it is just how easy it is to run mixed or literally chose what you kill with the moves you run while everyone else has to play a guessing game while they sacrifice half their team.

Should remain S imo

 

[Kibblecat]

I literally went to ou ladder picked someone random from the top 10 and the latest replay was this game:

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-267731818

The Hoopa player lost but Hoopa itself put in a ton of work taking 35% from a rotom-w Hydro then straight up koing the switch in torn-t. Proceeded to kill 3 mons that game thanks to fairly easy and obvious U-turns that the opponent can't really prevent. I don't see why you maintain it is 'easy to switch around' when it clearly is not and the big thing about it is just how easy it is to run mixed or literally chose what you kill with the moves you run while everyone else has to play a guessing game while they sacrifice half their team.

Should remain S imo

Point taken that I'm overplaying the fact that it often relies on only 2HKO'ing a lot of balance's staples, but then again there were some difficult match ups at play there. My argument was based on one set, and I disclaimer'd that I wasn't saying the set I covered should be held in a vacuum. Throwing out one replay between a top 10 and a borderline 500 (I guess? No criticism to the player), or any number of replays at any moderately high ranking, doesn't exactly disprove my whole argument, either. Requiring those U-Turns to get in is still a flaw to work around regardless of how achievable it can be in practice. There are lots of games where it's pretty difficult.

As I've already admitted, it's a more controversial suggestion on my part that Hoopa could drop below A+, but I can't see him staying in S.

 

[Alfalfa]

If Starmie is going to drop to A- rank, then Latias should drop as well. Its viability has been slowly declining for months; while its ability as a role compressor is valuable for particular teams, it fails to beat the majority of Pokemon it is supposed to check, or consistent methods of counterplay are usually structured into teams featuring mons Latias is supposed to check (ie Pursuit, etc.). Starmie is a consistently more lethal threat, as it has enough coverage and power with Analytic to put pressure on a larger portion of teams. Latias fails to put much pressure, as aside from Draco Meteor (which is highly exploitable), Latias will find itself shut down by a number of available top threats in the metagame. While the increased usage in Spikes should be in Latias' favor, it fails to beat most common spikers, such as Ferrothorn and Klefki, whereas Starmie has the capability to pressure these threats without running into significant opportunity cost. Latias' only valuable trait is Healing Wish, which is not enough for it to be A Rank when mons like Tyranitar, Skarmory, and Klefki are all significantly more valuable.

Even factoring in Latias' trait as a role compressor, most teams will tend to stray away from using it because its limitations and weaknesses are quite easy to exploit. I see no reason for it to be A Rank, and I therefore nominate it to drop.

 

[Arik]

replay posted by Shruggy - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-267731818

I would like to nominate Mega Medicham from A- ====>A. In the replay Medicham literally tossed the guy on his neck. This thing is the hardest hitter in the Metagame with decent speed tier for a wallbreaker too. Has dual priority which hit really hard , and zen headbutt + HJK takes cares of fat mons quite easily. Also has the ability to run ice punch which OHKO's the most common Pokemon in the tier. This has only 2 switch ins in the entire tier too.

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 484-572 (115.2 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[bludz]

Latias A -> A-
I agree wholeheartedly. I think I was one of the people who spearheaded the campaign to keep it in A last time it was nominated but this is not the case any more. Advantages and disadvantages aside, Latias is not a better pokemon in this metagame than Starmie. It deserves to be more than 1 subrank lower than Latios as well, because the only 2 reasons to use it are Healing Wish and checking things like Manectric better. Most of the things Latios / Latias check are paired with pursuit trappers anyway, so the extra bulk to actually check those mons is not always that significant. Plus it is less versatile than Latios; 3 atks lure sets may be more effective at actually luring, but are less effective in general due to the power drop:

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Surf vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 187-221 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

184 SpA Life Orb Latias Surf vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 159-187 (41.2 - 48.5%) -- 10.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I know that a one sub-rank difference already illustrated the difference in effectiveness, but I think that gap has increased. With dark being a very popular offensive type, power + utility trumps bulk + utility by a larger margin than before.

 

[Finchinator]

replay posted by Shruggy - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-267731818

I would like to nominate Mega Medicham from A- ====>A. In the replay Medicham literally tossed the guy on his neck. This thing is the hardest hitter in the Metagame with decent speed tier for a wallbreaker too. Has dual priority which hit really hard , and zen headbutt + HJK takes cares of fat mons quite easily. Also has the ability to run ice punch which OHKO's the most common Pokemon in the tier. This has only 2 switch ins in the entire tier too.

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 484-572 (115.2 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That replay isn't too accurate of a representation of Mega-Medicham in the current metagame. First off, your opponent had a team that consisted of five slow pokemon and one pokemon (Alakazam) that was threatened way too much by any physical attack, even Fake Out from Mega Medicham if that happened to come into play, so they were blatantly underprepared. Second off, the one quicker pokemon that could easily revenge kill Mega Medicham was thrown away to a Focus Blast miss on Hippowdon when your opponent didn't need to use Focus Blast (if you switched to Weavile, he could just Focus next turn as he lived Shard with his Mega Alakazam), so yea Mega Medicham will do work if you face lackluster opponents who throw away their faster pokemon and use slower teams - thing is, so will pretty much everything, if you play it properly.

If you look at Mega-Medicham in general in the metagame right now, then you'll notice that it has a lot of potential to do well, especially in certain match-ups, but it doesn't do consistently well and although it has priority, the base 100 speed for an offensive mega isn't too helpful and there are a couple defensive checks residing in the tier (albeit, not many - Slowbro (Mega or regular), Mega Sableye, Slowking, Mew, Reuniclus, bulky Starmie, etc.). I'd say it fits in with something like Mega Aero in A- because Mega Aero can do well (or even clean up) against offense while Mega Medi tends to do better against balance (essentially, they trade off speed and power although Mega Aero has more coverage and Mega Medi has more bulk and a better defensive typing). In addition, I don't think Mega Medicham has gotten much better recently and, as far as I know, it has been in A- for a long time - not that this means it shouldn't be changed as things shift in viability all the time and it could've been underestimated this whole time, but I don't see much need for a move and I think it is fine in A- now

edit: ah i didnt know that bludz, but it still has never graced A rank in oras and what you said is correct, i stand by my point and thanks for the correction :]

 

[bludz]

Finch it actually moved up to A- within the past month or so, it hasn't been there for a long time so it did move up recently.

That said I agree with the general premise of your argument, despite its priority it is fairly easy to revenge kill on offense and struggles with Mega Sableye and most bulky psychic types in general. I think A- is fine.

 

[teamsnickers]

Can we get some more Garchomp to S conversation...Not everything has to be a sweeper to be S rank, garchomp is honestly just stupid and arguably the most over centralizing mon in the tier right now.... The fact that something takes 1-4 of damage whenever it touches garchomp is just absurd and its by far the best sr user in ou and creates ATON of momentum for your team......Sure it has no recovery and easy to wear down but garchomp doesnt need recovery to be a assist to your team, at any hp you have to be weary of garchomp whenever you're u turning out so just using a non ice/fairy psychical attack in general.....Its ok to have a non sweeper in s rank, especially when its as centralizing as garchomp is right now, and ik usage doesnt= viability but 30 percent plus usage on high ladder, seriously wtf...

 

[jordanthejq12]

Garchomp is a curious situation. Usage may not equal viability, but being number one in usage in spite of a 4x weakness everyone and their mother can exploit has to say something. Of course, there is the 4x weakness.

 

[Alfalfa]

Garchomp is a curious situation. Usage may not equal viability, but being number one in usage in spite of a 4x weakness everyone and their mother can exploit has to say something. Of course, there is the 4x weakness.

4x weakness has nothing to do with Garchomp's viability at the moment. Landorus-I possessed the same 4x weakness as Garchomp, yet it still managed to reach S Rank before it was suspected and banned. Of course, they are a lot different from each other, but such weakness is not the logistical argument towards keeping Garchomp from rising to S Rank at the moment.

 

[MikeDawg]

bludz power trumps bulk, yeah, bug latios isn't that much stronger. Latias is only "worse by comparison", hence the one-rank difference. Healing wish is so so so awesome, though, for obvious reasons. You can't undersell that.

 

[thesecondbest]

And these calcs still use that mysterious 184 SPA ev spread that is teched for thundy-i hp ice. That is barely relevant (not saying thundy is bad but you still die to life orb recoil and some run hp flying) and running max special attack will help mitigate a lot of the gaps in those calcs. Healing wish is just sooooo insane that I would even consider putting them in the same rank. Latias is also a better lure since nobody expects it to have EQ, and it can bluff mega legitimately on a team with zam or scizor etc. I think it's fine as is, and should maybe even rise.
EDIT: Latias gets sucker punch too lol

 

[AM]

thesecondbest stop kidding yourself with Latios and Latias in the same rank ._.

 

[MrCookiepants]

Fat Garchomp is such an annoyingly effective lead. It just does way too much work for something that's supposed to be expendable. People save it as death fodder and if my Weavile dares to click Knock Off at any point, it'll be sitting at like 30% from rocks + rough skin + helmet + life orb. So either my physical attacker has to kill itself to recoil, or I have to try and switch out and have the rest of my team be whittled down by hazards while this thing brainlessly clicks Dragon Tail.

What's more, due to the prevalence of this set, offensive variants become even more dangerous than they used to be because nobody is expecting it (switch in Lando only to get blown away by max SpA Draco Meteor...). I think Garchomp is absolutely deserving of S rank with its current omnipresence and versatility.

 

[Noctis Totalus]

I completely agree with Latias dropping. It's been getting harder and harder to use her (and it's been that way for at least a few months now). Her biggest selling-point was Healing Wish, which is invaluable. But it just can't keep up with today's meta, and anyone advocating her to be in the same rank as Latios is ludicrous.

Suicune is definitely a good Pokemon, but I don't agree with it going to A-. Keep it in B+. It's being a little overhyped right now. While it's undoubtedly a good physical wall and counters a lot of hard-hitting physical attackers, it just can't do too much to them in return and has massive 4MS. Sleep-Talk can be quite unreliable, and Suicune is completely shut down by Taunt. Scald's a very good move, but Suicune has lackluster starting power, and isn't going to be too threatening to today's offensive meta. It obviously checks/counters a lot of powerful Pokemon like Keldeo and Weavile, but it's inundated by 4MS, weak starting power, and an inability to function much when Taunted.

Dragalge doesn't fit in B+, IMO. Amazing ability and good defensive typing, but people overestimate its wallbreaking prowess and its horrid speed leaves it open to being Psyshock'd and EQ'd extremely easily. And it's basically walled to death by any Steel type.

Beedrill from B to B-. Cool Pokemon, but damn, with the meteoric usage of fat Garchomp, this thing just gets ravaged when U-turning on FatChomp without Garchomp having to even attack. It loses more than half of its health from RH/RS + SR. That's horrendous.

Infernape from C+ to B-. Interesting Pokemon, and its ability to counter and check Pokemon like Weavile, Heatran, and Bisharp can be invaluable. Its WoW set catches a lot of people by surprise.

 

[TPP]

Gonna support the Latias drop for multiple reasons.

Latias is still a really good mon, but it's just not as useful anymore. The main reason to run it over Latios was purely for the extra bulk and for Healing Wish. The one problem I don't like with that, is that there's no room for Roost, meaning that bulk for checking mons like Thundy, Mega Manectric and Zard Y, is only temporary. Technically you can run Roost, but you'll be sacrificing Healing Wish, which is the usual reason to even run Latias over Latios. There's also the fact that taking damage from the mons it's supposed to check along with Life Orb damage and Stealth Rock, can wear down Latias very quickly, meaning your Defog user can be taken care of pretty quickly. Latios on the other hand, can afford to run Roost in its last slot and check the same mons, but can manage the whole battle because it's able to heal. Latios can also afford to run other moves in its last slot instead of Roost, including HP Fire, EQ, Calm Mind, Thunderbolt, Trick (Choice Scarf variants), Surf and even Memento to help the next mon setup. That last slot allows Latios to deal with the steel types like Scizor, that normally wall it and Latias. Latias on the other hand, is really restricted with Healing Wish, so running EQ on it may be a good lure, but you'll be sacrificing Healing Wish (the main purpose of even running it over Latios) or Defog (one of the main reasons to run it in the first place). Dark types like Weavile are running around everywhere, so the extra bulk Latias has won't even be as useful since it'll just get bopped like Latios would. Overall, it really struggles with 4MSS as well as major competition from it's counterpart Latios already kept it a sub rank under it, but that gap is becoming noticeably bigger, and with dark and steel teams on nearly every team, it's getting harder to use.

-> A-

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Sigh. . . Can't get a Wobb convo going to save my life. Oh well. C+ it'll stay then.

The only mon I really feel like weighing in on right now is Garchomp. Admittedly, I wasn't the most fond of this nom, I had a very strict definition of what should be S, but with what it has become, I've had to change my mindset on it. With that said, I am actually 100% for Garchomp going to S. To put it simply, it's an insanely amazing Pokemon. It's "fat" set is just. . . Seriously, fuck that thing. It makes having a physically offensive Pokemon a serious nuisance. You get punished just for having one. It's absurd. As stated, it's offensive sets, although few and far between, are very capable and can be incredibly effective thanks to it seeming fazed out. It's on damn near every team that isn't a nearly dead archetype (stall) for a reason. It's got amazing bulk, absolutely awesome utility, supports like no other, has some effectively surprisingly offensive sets and is easily one of the best Pokemon in the tier, simply THE staple in ORAS. I am 100% for a rise for chomp. Though I do understand if it doesn't move up.

 

[Random Passerby]

Garchomp to S: Disagree. This thing has the "Mega Altaria syndrome" in that it can run a multitude of sets; Physically Defensive, Choice Scarf, Salac Berry + SD, Lead SR, LO SD, Mega SD, Mega Mixed, Chain Chomp ; but it excels at none of them in the sense that every set has serious downsides. For example, Phy Def Chomp has no recovery and is easily worn down, Scarf is easily walled, Chain Chomp relies on the surprise factor, LO SD is let down by average Speed. All of these factors mean it doesn't perform as well as a S rank Pokemon could. A+ please.

 

[Kibblecat]

Garchomp to S: Disagree. This thing has the "Mega Altaria syndrome" in that it can run a multitude of sets; Physically Defensive, Choice Scarf, Salac Berry + SD, Lead SR, LO SD, Mega SD, Mega Mixed, Chain Chomp ; but it excels at none of them in the sense that every set has serious downsides. For example, Phy Def Chomp has no recovery and is easily worn down, Scarf is easily walled, Chain Chomp relies on the surprise factor, LO SD is let down by average Speed. All of these factors mean it doesn't perform as well as a S rank Pokemon could. A+ please.

Having down sides to any set isn't necessarily an issue in the way that you're putting it. Even the S-Rank mons are "beatable" (for want of a better word) and if they weren't they'd be questioned for a suspect. Further, to hit S-Rank a mon only technically needs one metagame defining set that is, or conceivably can be, on every team, and right now it's definitely the Fat Chomp set that greatly inhibits pivoting and spinning to the degree that it can easily set up rocks multiple times. Correct me if there's a technicality that says it has to do multiple roles well to achieve S. I'd totally agree that all the sets have somes down sides to them, particularly the mega ones (purely by nature of taking up the mega slot for a job that, for example, Kyurem-B can do better), but the difference here from M-Altaria is the fact that the one most common set, Rocks, is much more splashable for nearly no opportunity cost, to the point where it's very easy to be caught off guard when you come up against a different set.

To elaborate on the 'splashable factor' and 'opportunity cost', M-Altaria has the disadvantages of having roughly the same checks for most of it's sets, with a few minor exceptions (the fairly rare Chansey can't beat the more common physical sets, for example, while Landoge struggles against the rarer non-boosting special set, and Ferro can't win in most situations where Alt's running Fire Blast), and also in most situations relies on setting up to sweep. Plus it has to take up the mega slot over another mega that requires less team support (such as Meta, ZardY, Venusaur, Lopunny, to an extent Garde, etc.). Plus Altaria is basically average at all of it's roles, and there are better every things - bulky sweepers/clerics, offensive DD'ers, special sweepers/whatever you call the Hyper Voice set, etc.

On the other side of the same coin, Chomp is single handedly the best at the rocks set. There's no more reliable consistent setter of a similar disposition in the metagame (I mean, I'm not comparing him to say, Ferro or Skarm, here. Landoge is the most comparable here) not counting suicides/dedicated leads which quite often can be played around by bouncers/fast taunters etc anyway. And, he's the best pivot-punisher and one of the best PHazers too given how badly he punishes U-turners and hitters that he resists. It's not that he doesn't have drawbacks, I mean the ice weakness, the vulnerability to burn and magic bounce, how he becomes instantly much less threatening if he takes a knock off, etc.

I guess what I'm saying is that for Altaria, there are things that do all of it's sets better. There isn't really anything that does the Fat Chomp set better than Chomp. And there's quite usually no cost to putting him on any team in that set. And for the other sets? Well, regardless of the downsides, he still performs them all well. And there aren't really any mons in OU to compare to the SD. I wouldn't compare many things to the scarf either, given that the middling speed tier and STAB EQ differentiate him from a lot of other dragons in that role (say, KyuB for example). I guess it's notable that Latios does the scarf thing a lot better but there are still reasons to use Chomp such as the invulnerability to TWave and ability to beat Chansey and Tar. Closest thing offensively in OU to that is Scarf Excadrill I guess, although it's not even that close.

Usage =/= viability, but in this case his #1 usage is good evidence for it when he's beating out all of the other S-Rank threats, in some cases by a long way, just demonstrating how easy it is to fit him onto teams.

I support Garchomp --> S Rank

 

[SketchUp]

I don't know why Garchomp is brought up for discussion when the viability council said it won't move just 3 weeks ago. The lack of recovery is much bigger than some of you make it out to be, because you can't continually keep switching in against Scizor, Lopunny, Talonflame, Bisharp etc. and this is a really big argument not in favor of Garchomp because the lack of recovery can easily be taken advantage of because 1. uninvested chomp lacks power so there are quiet a few pokemon that can switch in and force it out 2. chomp can easily be overwhelmed by stuff like bish+talonflame and 3. it wears itself down quicklier by continually switching in against pokemon like Scizor and Talonflame because they are able to roost off the chip damage from rocky+roughskin.
Though the offensive sets are kinda underrated, those sets don't even make chomp A+ worthy; it doesn't provide the defensive utility of tankchomp and only based off defensive sets Garchomp is not a S rank threat.

 

[13_luckynumber]

Garchomp to S: Disagree. This thing has the "Mega Altaria syndrome" in that it can run a multitude of sets; Physically Defensive, Choice Scarf, Salac Berry + SD, Lead SR, LO SD, Mega SD, Mega Mixed, Chain Chomp ; but it excels at none of them in the sense that every set has serious downsides. For example, Phy Def Chomp has no recovery and is easily worn down, Scarf is easily walled, Chain Chomp relies on the surprise factor, LO SD is let down by average Speed. All of these factors mean it doesn't perform as well as a S rank Pokemon could. A+ please.

Phy Def Chomp has no recovery but even at 1%, it still does its job of punishing physical attackers like at 100%. Sure sometimes you wish you had Recover but between the three staples SR/EQ/Dragon Tail and a choice of Fire Blast/ Toxic/ Endure , TankChomp always does its job. When was the last time you brought a TankChomp and it failed to punish MegaLop, MegaGross, Azu, MegaMedi, MegaAero, ZardX, etc? The consistency it brings is top-notch in this meta.

ScarfChomp is easy to wall buy at the same time, so are most other Scarfers once you know they are Scarf. One thing Garchomp has over most other Scarfers is being able to consistenly revenge kill +1 ZardX. Its Stab are pretty spammable late game to clean too.

ChainChomp works based on the surprise factor prettty much since its invention in 4th gen. It puts some serious damage on its usual switch-ins like Lando-T, Ferrothorn, Skarmory and it still manages to be threatening enough even after you reveal you are 252 Spa. Not to mention there is MegaChomp to offset Life Orb recoil + stronger EQ.

SD LO Chomp's base 102 Speed is more than enough to be relevant. The sheer power after a SD + being able to outspeed the 100 base crowd + having decent natural bulk allow it to work more often than not.

Also, you listed 8 sets in your post. 8 freaking viable sets plus some completely viable adjustments like Sash, Yache, Sand Veil makes Chomp extremely versatile. This versatility + its consistency in the TankChomp set give Garchomp enoufh viability to be S-rank.

 

[AM]

Read the first sentence of sketchups post above then move on.