ORAS Ubers eclipse 1k

haxiom

God's not dead.
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Hey everyone. It's my 1k post, so I made an RMT. I was going to put a ton of effort into this and complete it with ladder peaks, written shoutouts to everyone, full threatlists, matchup guide, tons of replays, etc. but I basically ran out of time so you get an ok team with some, but not all, of the aforementioned elements. I've had this 1k in mind for a while as my building for this RMT included attempts at offensive Ho-Oh builds with Forretress and Mega Diancie, to Defog Lugia balance, to Mega Slowbro builds, and then finally to this. Two notes before we start. Firstly, "Overview" refers to my thoughts on each Pokemon in the metagame in general, "Analysis" refers to my thoughts regarding each Pokemon in the context of this team, and "Other Options" is self-explanatory. Let's jump right in; I'll give the cliche "here's where I started and the journey to how I got here" message at the end.

Teambuilding


I came up with the concept of using Gothitelle by noticing that stall builds (the Mega Sableye / Lugia / Water Arceus archetype) were rising in popularity and had a limited number of things that could reliably break it; I initially worked with Mega Gengar but it was relatively uninteresting and had the opportunity cost of taking up the Mega Slot. I used Gothitelle quite a bit in XY and I saw that it could do pretty decent work against some relatively common Pokemon, including but not limited to support Arceus formes and Klefki. I decided on Heal Bell to provide cleric support for its teammates.


From there I set out to set up a solid defensive backbone. The intent would be to build a bulkier build with Pokemon that tend to struggle against other bulky archetypes, using Gothitelle to offer a strong matchup vs these types of teams, while a solid defensive backbone gives me a decent way of dealing with more offensive builds. I started with a support Primal Groudon because its sort of a given on a build like this.


I continued to build a defensive backbone by adding Klefki, a Pokemon that is extremely versatile, can check a number of fast threats with priority Thunder Wave, set up Spikes, Toxic Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh, and by virtue of typing, it also checks a decent portion of the metagame. It's just a useful Pokemon to have on a more balanced build for the utility it provides.


I opted for Water Arceus as a Defog user, as its extremely reliable and can check a lot of physical attackers like Ho-Oh (though not all variants, depending on the choice of Ice Beam or Judgment), support Primal Groudon, Mega Salamence, etc. It's just an overall effective support Pokemon.


Water Arceus is a weak Primal Kyogre switch in. Ferrothorn is redundant with Klefki, Latias or Latios are usable but compounds some weaknesses and makes building for the last slot tricky. I had kinda liked the idea of Blissey here, as it checks non-Swords Dance Ghost Arceus, and could either provide Wish support for Primal Groudon and Klefki, or run Heal Bell itself and free up a moveslot of Gothitelle to run a move such as Magic Coat, which gives it utility as an anti-lead. Blissey is one of the few Pokemon that can do this without mandating a Pursuit user, which makes it an optimal choice here.


For the last Pokemon, I still had a Mega slot open. There was a ridiculous amount of pressure on Water Arceus at this point to check almost every physical attacker, so Mega Salamence seemed like a nice choice to help out against Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh, so I chose that.


Looking back at the build, there was a significant weakness to Extreme Killer Arceus and Mewtwo. For a while I tried to rebuild using Mega Sableye to serve as an anti-lead against offensive builds as well as a check to these two, and came up with this version, using Mega Sableye and regular Salamence, which I could run either Wish to support Klefki and Primal Groudon, or Defog to free up a slot on Water Arceus.


The build was solid, having good matchups against both offensive and defensive teams, but it had a major weakness to Ghost Arceus. As a result, I went back to Mega Salamence, and replaced Mega Sableye with defensive Yveltal (which I think is a really mediocre Pokemon, but it does have a distinct niche in being able to check Ghost Arceus, Mewtwo, and Extreme Killer Arceus well). This is probably my best take on this build, at least thus far. Granted, some things do still irk me that I'll mention.

In-Depth Analysis


Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Calm
IVs: 0 Atk
Moves:
- Calm Mind - Set up move that allows Gothitelle to get to +6 / +6 and remove certain Pokemon
- Rest - Allows Gothitelle to heal status and HP and continue setting up on Pokemon that it traps
- Psyshock - Attacking move that 1-2HKOs relevant targets at +6
- Heal Bell - Provides utility by curing teammates of status

Overview
Gothitelle was rejected as unviable in Ubers early on in ORAS, a time where offense was arguably more popular and dominant, while stall and other bulkier archetypes were much less developed. Cores of Mega Sableye, Lugia, and Water Arceus is something that teams have to be able to break nowadays. Gothitelle can trap and eliminate Pokemon such as Klefki, most common support Arceus formes; the ability to do this gives Gothitelle a niche in this metagame. It can also offer other utility by running Heal Bell or Magic Coat, the former of which provides cleric support, and the latter of which allows Gothitelle to function as an anti-lead against standard hyper offense builds.

Analysis
For this team, Gothitelle provides valuable stallbreaking abilities, as the team is built to have a strong defensive backbone utilizing solid defensive Pokemon, but these same Pokemon tend to struggle against stall builds because they lack a way of breaking common stall cores on their own. Gothitelle also serves as the cleric on this build, as clerics are extremely important for balanced builds so that they are not overwhelmed by Toxic spam on stall builds (and to a lesser extent, paralysis and burns). The EVs and nature are straightforward, most importantly giving Gothitelle enough Special Defense to consistently trap support Arceus formes, with 0 Attack IVs to minimize Foul Play and confusion damage, although it is mostly irrelevant. Leftovers are pretty intuitive, but the passive recovery is super helpful to avoid some 3-4HKOs at times.

Other Options
Magic Coat is a usable alternative to Heal Bell, but this build doesn't need Magic Coat's anti-leading abilities quite as much as it needs cleric support. That said, if a cleric can be fit on this build otherwise, Magic Coat is arguably more reliable than this teams current methods of hazard prevention against common offensive leads. Gothitelle also has a few other options for this last slot, such as Tickle and Thunder Wave.


Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 248 HP / 216 SpD / 44 Spe
Nature: Careful
Moves:
- Rest - Provides longevity to continue checking Xerneas and Primal Kyogre throughout a match
- Stealth Rock - Mandatory move on every team that wears down switch-ins
- Earthquake - Strong, reliable STAB move that hits most Pokemon for solid damage
- Lava Plume - Alternate STAB move that spreads burns and hits Pokemon that are physically bulky or immune to Earthquake

Overview
Primal Groudon is the ORAS Ubers metagame. I don't think I really need to go into extreme detail as to why it is quite likely the best Pokemon in Ubers, but to summarize, Primal Groudon is ridiculously splashable, checks a ton of relevant threats, is the best Stealth Rock user in the tier, is very versatile, etc. Basically, this Pokemon is on over half of ORAS Ubers teams for a reason, and its not really surprising that it is on this team.

Analysis
Primal Groudon is the Stealth Rock setter for this team, while also being a good check for top tier threats such as Primal Kyogre and Xerneas, in conjunction with Water Arceus and Klefki respectively. I really needed to have the longevity to most importantly check Primal Kyogre throughout a match, so I opted for Rest here, which I can afford to do so as I have a cleric in Gothitelle to cure the Sleep with Heal Bell. I also opted for a fully specially defensive spread, as physical threats can be checked by Water Arceus, Yveltal, and Mega Salamence, while special threats are much more threatening. I'm running a bit of Speed creep as well.

Other Options
Most notably, Thunder Wave or Roar could be run over either Lava Plume or Rest; however, if Lava Plume is replaced, Primal Groudon gives a lot more free switches to Levitating or Flying-type Pokemon, while Rest is important for longevity purposes. So its a trade of one of these to check Xerneas more reliably. If I had to run one, I'd probably go with Thunder Wave because it punishes Ho-Oh, Latias, Latios, etc. at least a little bit, whereas they could otherwise switch in without risk. Precipice Blades doesn't really offer much and is less reliable, but if the power matters for anything in particular I guess it could be run.


Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 Spe
Nature: Bold
IVs: 0 Atk
Moves:
- Ice Beam - Hits Mega Salamence super effectively and Primal Groudon through harsh sunlight
- Judgment - Decently powerful STAB move that hits Ho-Oh, Mega Diancie, and most Steel-types harder than Ice Beam
- Recover - Necessary means of reliable recovery that improves longevity and allows Water Arceus to take repeated hits
- Toxic - Puts a timer on Stealth Rock setters such as Primal Groudon and other Pokemon that otherwise do not mind Water Arceus's attacks

Overview
Water Arceus was generally considered to be pretty bad in ORAS early on with the introduction of Primal Groudon, but opinions of it have been getting increasingly more positive to the point where most people consider it pretty good. It is indeed a very consistent Defog user and general check to physical attackers such as Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, and Mega Salamence.

Analysis
Ice Beam and Judgment are both used on this set because I have Defog on Mega Salamence and these moves really help take pressure off of Yveltal and Mega Salamence because they allow Water Arceus to beat opposing Mega Salamence and Ho-Oh more consistently; Substitute Ho-Oh could be especially threatening otherwise. The spread is a pretty standard physically defensive spread. Water Arceus also pivots into Primal Kyogre if necessary, the most relevant scenario being when Primal Kyogre switches into Primal Groudon safely, so I am forced to take the Origin Pulse with Water Arceus to pivot back into Primal Groudon without sacking something.

Other Options
Defog is the biggest, and probably only other move that could be run. It let's you run Dragon Dance Mega Salamence too, which has pretty cool synergy with Gothitelle. The downside is that the team gives up security vs Ho-Oh (assuming Judgment is replaced), and its harder to keep hazards off against standard hyper offense builds.


Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Careful
Moves:
- Spikes - Punishes opposing switches and wears down bulky Pokemon for teammates
- Thunder Wave - Cripples fast threats and allows Klefki to act as an effective safety net
- Toxic - Wears down a variety of Pokemon, including ones that commonly switch into Klefki such as Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh
- Play Rough - Deals respectable damage against some Dark- and Dragon-types while circumventing Taunt

Overview
Klefki is a pretty effective Pokemon in Ubers, being able to check a huge number of threats, a number that increases further if you count the ability to cripple sweepers with Prankster Thunder Wave. While a lack of recovery outside of Leftovers is annoying and can lead to Klefki being overburdened in certain matchups, Klefki's nearly unparalleled utility makes it a worthwhile choice on a lot of teams.

Analysis
Klefki works well alongside its teammates by providing support and utility through Thunder Wave and Spikes. Spikes synergize well with Gothitelle's ability to trap and remove common Defog users in support Arceus formes, as well as Latios and Latias in certain scenarios. Along with Primal Groudon, most special attackers are checked, though in general Klefki is more useful vs setup sweepers such as Geomancy Xerneas and Darkrai, while Primal Groudon is better against Pokemon like Primal Kyogre and non-Geomancy Xerneas. Toxic is a nice move to hit Ho-Oh and Primal Groudon with on the switch, which takes pressure off of Water Arceus and Mega Salamence. The spread is standard.

Other Options
Dazzling Gleam is usable alongside a bit of Special Attack investment to beat Mega Sableye. This is especially nice because Mega Sabeye otherwise can be difficult for this team to beat, as it has no problem dealing with Gothitelle. I'd have to get around to testing it a bit more but I definitely like the idea on this team. Other than this, Klefki can run moves such as Flash Cannon, Safeguard, Light Screen, Reflect, Heal Block, and Magnet Rise; however, not all of these are especially useful on this build, or useful at all really.


Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 Spe
Nature: Impish
Moves:
- Dragon Tail - Phases setup sweepers and can wear down foes with Stealth Rock and Spikes damage
- Roost - Provides useful reliability and allows Mega Salamence to consistently check physical threats
- Return - Strong attack that makes Mega Salamence much more difficult to take advantage of
- Defog - Clears hazards, which is especially important due to having two Pokemon that are weak to Stealth Rock

Overview
Mega Salamence is a pretty defining Pokemon in Ubers; however, it is mostly for the offensive prowess of its Dragon Dance sets combined with the defensive capabilities it provides thanks to good physical bulk and Intimidate. I did not use a Dragon Dance set here, but instead chose a Defog variant, as it fares well against the most common Stealth Rock user in the metagame, Primal Groudon, an attribute that is extremely useful.

Analysis
Mega Salamence contributes to a strong physically defensive backbone alongside Water Arceus and Yveltal, though the former more than the latter. The advantage it has over Defog Water Arceus alongside Klefki on this build is that it can KO Deoxys-S with Return after a Play Rough. Thus, Klefki can lead and Thunder Wave turn one, Play Rough, then switch to Mega Salamence to Defog and KO with return the following turn, keeping hazards off the field and making dealing with the opposing offensive much more manageable. The spread outspeeds neutral 252 Speed base 95 Pokemon, plus a bit of creep past common support Arceus benchmarks.

Other Options
Body Slam is usable, but it sort of defeats the purpose of running Defog Mega Salamence on this team. Frustration is probably optimal, but to change it is mostly inconsequential. It is definitely possible to run Dragon Dance Refresh Mega Salamence (which fears burns even less and serves as a sweeper that the team currently lacks) alongside Defog Water Arceus; however, Water Arceus loses one of its moves which can be important, and the matchup against offense is less consistent.


Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Nature: Impish
Moves:
- Foul Play - STAB + Dark Aura Foul Play heavily damages physical attackers and setup sweepers such as Extreme Killer Arceus and Mega Salamence
- Roost - Reliable recovery that improves longevity, which is important if Yveltal needs to check more than one threat in a game
- Taunt - Stops support Pokemon from using recovery or status moves and renders them effectively useless
- Sucker Punch - Decently powerful priority move that lets Yveltal revenge kill weakened threats

Overview
Yveltal suffers from a certain degree of mediocrity in Ubers, with offensive sets being decent at breaking teams but limited in regards to other utility and matchup reliant to a degree; meanwhile, defensive sets suffer from being overwhelmed by the huge number of powerful physical threats in Ubers. The metagame has not been especially kind to it, as Stone Edge Extreme Killer Arceus forces it to lose its Leftovers recover in favor of Charti Berry, Primal Groudon commonly runs Fire- and Rock-type moves, and Mega Salamence can beat it with prior damage and Stealtlh Rock up. However, while Yveltal is certainly not a dominant force in Ubers, it has a clear niche in being able to check Extreme Killer Arceus, Mewtwo, and Ghost Arceus, something not too many other Pokemon can do consistently, if at all.

Analysis
I already sort of explained what Yveltal does here in regards to checking Pokemon. In practice, it's only useful in some matchups, but I think its somewhat necessary to deal with specific threats that the team otherwise struggles with. I opted for Sucker Punch over Toxic because the team otherwise lacks priority and I don't think Toxic is that necessary on this build, while Taunt gives Yveltal a little bit of outside utility against stall. I'm running a bit of Speed creep for the spread, but its mostly just standard.

Other Options
Toxic is definitely usable over either Taunt or Sucker Punch, as it has the nice benefit of hitting some things like Xerneas on the switch. Heat Wave kind of defeats the purpose but it does help against Ferrothorn and other Steel-types. Leftovers, Dread Plate, or Rocky Helmet could be used as items I guess, but Stone Edge Extreme Killer Arceus is popular enough of a threat to warrant Charti Berry in my opinion.

Matchups

Offense


Against offense, I explained how Mega Salamence and Klefki can effectively anti-lead Deoxys-S. From there, the tools to shut down offense is there, but there is still room to get outplayed. Just avoid letting Klefki get too weakened if you aren't running a move to stop Xerneas on Primal Groudon. The best chance that standard hyper offense has against this team is to overwhelm Klefki with Darkrai and Xerneas, but playing smart can secure the win without too much trouble.

Ho-Oh Balance


This is one of the stronger matchups this team has, as Gothitelle simply tears apart archetypes with support Arceus formes, possible Klefki, etc. and balance generally lacks enough power to break through and you should be able to outlast balance. Depending on circumstance, Gothitelle can also trap Latias and Latios, which are the next most poplar Defog users, so builds with Latias as the Defog user also don't fare too well against this team; Ho-Oh cannot effectively break this team if Stealth Rocks are up, which is much more likely due to Gothitelle's presence on this team.

Sand


Sand does matchup decently well against this team, or at least it appears to with Tyranitar being able to stop Gothitelle, Excadrill coming in for free against Klefki, etc. Assuming the standard Tyranitar / Excadrill / Water Arceus / Ferrothorn / Mega Salamence / Ho-Oh build, you can remove Water Arceus or Ferrothorn with Gothitelle; removing Ferrothorn is particularly nice because you can control the game with your own Water Arceus afterwards, and it wins long term assuming that you can get a Toxic on the opposing Water Arceus.

Stall


Gothitelle. It breaks down common cores by removing support Arceus formes and some clerics, then pressuring with hazards and status. Gothitelle also can heal status for the team which is very nice against stall. Some issues can arise against strong players who double switch at opportune times, and can even double into Tyranitar to remove Gothitelle, so it is possible to be outplayed. However, Gothitelle's presence on the team alone puts immense pressure on opposing stall such that they are forced to make aggressive, high-risk plays in order to not lose.

Threatlist

Honestly, the biggest problem with this team is that it is passive. There's no real win condition, and because of the team's passivity, there is room for offensive teams and defensive teams, the more importantly the former, to outplay and win. As a result, a consistent team on paper is less consistent in practice. This is basically an inherent problem to a lot of bulkier teams though. Also, the team is a bit too reliant on Gothitelle to break down bulkier teams.


Heat Wave variants can be really threatening because it removes Klefki and pressures Water Arceus immensely; however, it doesn't auto-win against this team.


Swords Dance Ground Arceus 6-0s after Water Arceus has taken some prior damage, Mega Salamence is already Mega Evolved (i.e. doesn't have Intimidate), and it doesn't miss Stone Egde.


While it doesn't do much, it's hard to break and I don't have much that can capitalize on the free turns it gives with Recover. I like Dazzling Gleam Klefki because it pressures Mega Sableye and can set Spikes, which is nice.


It doesn't really do much, but it traps Gothitelle and can leave the team unable to break stall or much of anything.


haha i love irony


Power-Up Punch is actually really threatening to this build, though I thankfully don't give it that much room.


It sets Stealth Rocks while pressuring my Defog user in Mega Salamence; my means of dealing with it are limited but Dialga is not going to win on its own, it just pressures this build a ton.

>>Importable<<

Shoutouts

It is inevitable that I will forget to mention someone here, just send me a vm/pm me and I'll add it; I'll also write out a full shout out for anyone who asks.

Ubers people / other friends past and present:
absdaddy Aidin ApplepieFTW Aquasition benbe canman98 DracoMaster Dab dice Dilwar Disaster Area Edgar Fireburn Hack Haunted Diamond Haruno hyw Iris Joryn kingmidas Krauersaut Level 56 Lord Outrage magsyy malefic Malley Minority Suspect Mr.378 PoMMan PoweredByRevenge PISTOLERO Melee Mewtwo Miang n00b Nayrz orch Peli PROBLEMS Safes shrang SparksBlade Starmei steelphoenix Sweep Syncrasy Thugly Duckling Tomahawk TFK WreckDra yohoE ZoroarkForever

Team Raters who's been working hard to help new users, don't know you all but I'll give a specific shoutout to my fellow moderators Celticpride IronBullet Jirachee Reymedy Trinitrotoluene


Conclusion
There are definitely better builds I could have used for my 1k but I chose this one because Gothitelle is an interesting Pokemon that I wanted to showcase; it was the last thing I really built with and I was running out of time. In fact, there's probably better examples of a team that abuses Gothitelle. So yeah I accept the flaws of this team. Also look at the title. Eclipse has connotations of shadows-->Shadow Tag. It also connotes night, or darkness, which relates to how Gothitelle is an evil Pokemon in Ubers. And finally, similar to how the moon blocks out the sun during an eclipse, Gothitelle blocks out and KOs Arceus, the creator of the sun. see how clever that is haha?

Jokes aside, lets start the real part of the conclusion. I started off on Smogon rating teams, which is rather fitting. I had no intent of getting into the community, and as a matter of fact the main reason I was rating teams was to raise my post count to get cred for my own RMTs *cringe*. But anyways, I've matured a ton as a player and a user, and for that I have the Ubers community to thank, for bringing me in and involving me in the culture of this community. I can't believe I stayed around for 1000 posts, but I guess I did and here I am now. This place is so hard to leave. It's a vice, and while sometimes I wish I could do other things and escape what has become almost an obsession, I can't. I can't leave, not for the game even, but for the community. Thanks for everything. I won't be leaving anytime soon, as far as I know, and am looking forward to having more fun playing this game!
 
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Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
Great team, actually I think I can propose one change to you though, though I'm a little ambivalent as to whether it's better or worse.

I think replacing Tough Bird with Fashionable Bird would work on this team.

Set:
Yveltal @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 32 HP / 4 Def / 248 SpA / 224 Spe
Modest Nature
- Foul Play
- Dark Pulse
- Oblivion Wing
- U-turn

Standard as per the smogdex analysis. I say it because I feel if you don't like the Tough Bird, Scarf Yveltal still checks the same Pokémon, but this gives you Scarf U-Turn+Shadow Tag (as per classic TrapTurn core, like Problems used in his XY RMT), with Foul Play letting you check Ekiller without having to take a hit from it first, as well as Mewtwo and Ghost Arceus are much more easily beaten too. It also helps with SD Arceus-Ground, PuP Kanga, and can probably get better chip damage/momentum vs sand teams? It also provides a cleaner even if it's not the most remarkable.

Otherwise it looks good, and I enjoyed reading it.
 
actually i have this team, its one of the few good teams i have. i use phys def bulky mono darky and kyogre instead of yveltal and water arc. not sure if yours is better variant or not, id have to think about ubers to find out. i'll give the rmt a like though fuck
 
I literally built myself a team that's 90% similar to this a while ago :O
Mr. Jamvad (Salamence-Mega) @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate
Happiness: 0
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 124 Spe
Impish Nature
- Frustration
- Roost
- Refresh
- Dragon Dance

jamvad's bae (Gothitelle) @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Rest
- Calm Mind
- Heal Bell

HARD BODY (Arceus-Water) @ Splash Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 224 Def / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Ice Beam
- Toxic
- Recover

now what ctc (Klefki) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Foul Play
- Thunder Wave
- Toxic
- Spikes

PRIMAL DON (Groudon-Primal) @ Red Orb
Ability: Desolate Land
EVs: 248 HP / 236 SpD / 24 Spe
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Lava Plume
- Rest
- Stealth Rock

ANTI DON (Latias) @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 212 HP / 112 Def / 84 SpA / 100 SpD
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Defog
- Recover


So, you see I have DD MMence, so i needed Defog support somewhere else. Lati fit and checks primals, but it made me so ridiculously weak to E killer arc that I started running Foul Play Klef to lure it in as it tries to use it as setup fodder.

I also tried rock arc because it was a better check to Ho-oh and Mence, but water is a better blanket check to more things. Idk, rock type judgement is better vs. Ho-oh and it resists both STAB and Mence's Return.

EDIT: actual critiquing
Defog on waterceus wouldn't lose you much and in return you could use DD mega Mence to give you a solid wincon and give you an answer to mega sableye with Refresh. DD mega mence would be a lot more helpful to the team as the team utilizes gothitelle to trap and eliminate stuff like waterceus and chansey, soemthing that synergizes well with offensive mence. unfortunately a non scarf goth allows Lugia to Whirlwind but that's fine when you can toxic stall with Klefki.
tldr; DD refresh mence will work better because goth helps its sweeping capabilities immensely. Defog on Arc won't lose you much and give the team a wincon and a great wall/stallbreaker

Nice team though, definitely like it because I've pretty much been using it for a bit lol
 
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I dont get this team. There is no offensive idea behind the usage of goth... Why does it matter that you can trap stalls defoger when you just lose the war of attrition due to no status sponges/magic bounce/cleric. Heal bell goth cant reliably cleric vs stall.

Goth bastardizes your defensive synergy (haha we really do use that word) by making you unable to cover offense. Just how do you actually handle the standard HO when mcoat deo-s just leads with ease and you have no ability to handle darkrai+pdon combo with hazards (as soon as darkrai sleeps something you are forced to go klefki, but the opponent can just switch to pdon on the sleeping mon, no counterplay)?

You are also xern weak, it will split up your core and gets many set up opportunities. You cant simply run klefki without any physically offensive presense like this. Ogre also simply gets too many free turns and you dont have any physical offense to punish it with.

Sorry if this came off as rude, but for a team in showcase I think it is fair to give priority to accuracy over politeness. Many new players as far as I know look at rmts and especually showcase to get their first foot into the meta, and I would quite frankly not recommend this team to anyone. But hey, it might just be me. You can ask me for more detailed reasoning and I will provide it later.
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
You say that switching to Defog Arc > 2 attacks will leave you weak to Ho-oh but that's only true in the case of the extremely rare Sub variant, and it would also allow you to run Refresh DD Mence which can actually take advantage of Goth's ability to remove its common Arceus checks and give you a late game wincon. It also gives you a secondary Ho-oh check. I find the redundancy between defensive Mence and Yveltal to be extremely severe which is causing it to be less optimal than could be.
 

haxiom

God's not dead.
is a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Disaster Area

I like Scarf Yveltal for the synergy with Gothitelle, though it weakens the matchup against Extreme Killer Arceus since it can't take any damage basically to check it well. I guess its a tradeoff.


Melee Mewtwo

I tagged you since you were an essential part of my integration into the Ubers community. As for Primal Kyogre and Dark Arceus, I guess it sort of works. Offensively, Dark Arceus is a lot nice than Yveltal and Water Arceus, though I think Ho-Oh has the potential to be problematic as well as just physical threats in general like Extreme Killer Arceus that Primal Kyogre doesn't deal with as well as Yveltal and Water Arceus.


ShiningFire08

I think Latias isn't an especially good choice for this build since it compromises a lot defensively; however, I do see the merit of Defog Water Arceus + Dragon Dance Mega Salamence which is something I had on this build before. I guess the thing I'm most hesistant is that Defog Water Arceus doesn't work quite the same as Mega Salamence in regards to keeping hazards off with Klefki against Deoxys-S, though it might not be a rational fear.


Hack

I don't think it's just you, I agree with a lot of the points especially regarding that the passivity of the team creates a lot of flaws. I could be wrong, but I don't think the team matches up as poorly against stall and offense as you make it out to be. Magic Coat Deoxys-S isn't that common I don't feel, is Skill Swap / Taunt / Stealth Rock / Spikes not the most common set? You can't Magic Coat over Taunt or else Defog users just Defog away hazards. I guess it could be used over Spikes or Skill Swap. I feel like the offense is manageable with hazards off so I guess there is a degree of assumption and matchup reliance vs Magic Coat Deoxys-S, but the team doesn't auto-lose against every HO variant out there. Agree no offensive abusers of Gothitelle is a problem. Rest Primal Groudon and Klefki can take status kinda, enough that I feel like I have a chance depending on what Gothitelle gets to kill, but idk. Yeah, most of the practical weaknesses of this team stem from a lack of an offensive presence, like Xerneas and Primal Kyogre as you mentioned. Did not come off as rude, hit me up in PM if you want to discuss further or I guess you can talk here if you want.


Freeroamer

Yeah don't disagree, I talked a bit about Defog Arceus + Dragon Dance Mega Salamence with other reply which you can see above.


Thanks for the replies, I don't mind the criticism.
 
No i ran really phys bulky dark arc, the kind ho-oh just goes oh shit and loses to. I think my kyogre was like phys def too with roar or something, it was a dpp bkc set. You already have phys def defog mence, you don''t need ygod. switching to those two also covers all the stuff hack just brought up for whatever its worth. There's probably more reasons why i used them but i can't really remember. Also I used charm goth cause it was extra good in the oras meta for some reason, I want to say it was cause it beats mdiancie or something.
 
Hi !!Just a minot tips; use dazzling gleam on kleki, because mega sablaye can burn it with with WoW and you lose your best ansewer to him. MegaSableye doesn't 6-0 your team, but it's anoying ass fuck wwith constant swicht ins and magic bouce, consifering your team relies on toxic and hazards (just my perception) defiting mega sableye is important imo. Move that speed EV into HP on Yvelta because are irrelevant, and a full 252hp 252+def yveltal can quick check adamant mega mence at +1 (at full health obviusly) and KO him with Foul Play. Overall it's really good team, congrats !!
 

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