Resource ORAS OU Metagame Discussion

[Exeggutive]

So with the new PS update that shows a tailwind timer I decided to make a tailwind HO team. And not gonna lie, Tailwind is a pretty clutch move to have on offense.

I'm not saying make a whole tailwind reliant team, but having tailwind on something such as latios, talonflame, charizard and (not "tailwind leads" like boom mew or aero) and then using it late game can turn the tables of a match. Especially if the opponent only has 3 mons left and you have a slowish hard hitter with spamable moves. Think hoopa, Bisharp, diance, gengar, LO Heatran, specs keldeo, 3 attacks zardx, etc. These can put in sooo much work with tailwind up.

In the late game, gengar, zardx and hoopa especially since they have extremely limited switch ins thanks to its spammable moves and wide coverage.

So yea what do you guys think of Tailwind? I think it's a pretty cool support move that offensive teams can use very well to get out of a tight spot or give some extra speed to a wallbreaker.

 

[bludz]

I agree Dark Pulse has been overlooked for the new toy Hyperspace Fury but I think special dark moves are harder to switch into since all of the common checks to dark types are for Weavile, Bisharp and Tyranitar whereas Hydreigon is sort of not really prepared for as much. Specially based Hoopa-U also messes up even specially defensive Skarmory and Mega Scizor because of its raw power.

Also I think Tailwind is a neat move. I've had it on a couple teams and I think it's great on a pokemon such as Latios as a last ditch move for after you Defog. It can be difficult to time but certainly has a niche.

 

[Blazikarados]

Hydreigon

IMO Hoopa mostly do Hydreigon's "spam dark pulse" job better because it can break the slow, bulky fairies (via Gunk Shot or if you get a nasty plot up, Psyshock has a chance to OHKO Magic Guard Clefable I think). Both still can't beat faster offensive fairies though, like Mega Diancie. IMO dark spam + M-Metagross generally is a good offensive core because it breaks fast fighting/ fairy types like Keldeo/Diancie. If you need a faster dark pulse spammer you could definitely use Hydreigon but I don't really think the extra speed is that important because the main thing it does is breaking, not sweeping.

 

[Expert_Occultist]

IMO Hoopa mostly do Hydreigon's "spam dark pulse" job better because it can break the slow, bulky fairies (via Gunk Shot or if you get a nasty plot up, Psyshock has a chance to OHKO Magic Guard Clefable I think). Both still can't beat faster offensive fairies though, like Mega Diancie. IMO dark spam + M-Metagross generally is a good offensive core because it breaks fast fighting/ fairy types like Keldeo/Diancie. If you need a faster dark pulse spammer you could definitely use Hydreigon but I don't really think the extra speed is that important because the main thing it does is breaking, not sweeping.

I've found Hoopa's lack of resistances very jarring. Hydreigon is able to switch into more things like Rotom and Slowbro and while yes, so can Hoopa it really can't switch in repeatedly. This is why Volt/turn is often seen as mandatory support for Hoopa while Hydreigon needs anti-fairy support. Hydreigon's extra speed comes in handy for taking out Kyurem and others as well whereas Hoopa would have to take a hit.
So overall yes, Hoopa is stronger for sure but Hydreigon offers great resistances (and lasts longer when played correctly) and the ability to out speed key threats with less specific support. For what it's worth Hydreigon also outspeeds and OHKOs Hoopa with U-turn even with a negative nature and no investment :)

 

[Shurtugal]

Hoopa-B is a mon just right for ORAS. It has incredible power, movepool, coverage, backed up by just enough speed to jump most balanced threats; but it has pitiful defenses and exploitable defensive typing, coupled by a useless ability, with a lack of recovery, and a exploitable weakness to Spikes - and its typing offers no immunities to any forms of status, and Stealth Rocks do neutral damage. So while Hoopa-B has the potential and obviously the ability to be a fantastic wallbreaker, it has enough exploitable weaknesses to keep it from being an overpowered threat (as it is, it isn't even close) in the ORAS OU metagame. With a wallbreaker in Landorus-I already banned before its arrival, the appearance of Hoopa-B is warmly welcomed imo.

Personally I've been running a mixed NP set that looks like: Nasty Plot, Dark Pulse, Psyshock, Gunk Shot | Focus Blast -- which is perfect for hitting pretty much any threat on fatter teams (you also beat that Wonder Trio Shedinja team lateagame - that thing is freakin' cancer). I know Hyperspace Fury looks amazing, but it's really lackluster imo, especially with the shift of how bulky the metagame is towards the physical spectrum (Landorus-Ts everywhere, Rocky Helmet bulky Garchomps, Gyarados rise in usage (regular and mega) with Intimidate, Slowbro, Skarmory, M-Sableye, Rotom-W Wisp Spams, etc.) that it hardly seems worth it to me to utilize Hyperspace Fury or even Drain Punch for that matter. +2 Psyshock is pretty close, if not guaranteed, a OHKO on Chansey when you've boosted to +2. Whatever Psyshock isn't hitting, Focus Blast / Gunk Shot / Dark Pulse can.

 

[Vert]

jumping into this thread because i just want to say that 3 attacks defog latios needs to stop getting negative attention. we get the point your a 2 time check to zardy and keldeo but on offense, ditching recover for thunderbolt, surf, earthquake, hidden power [fighting]/[fire], lol ice beam turns you into both an anti hazard mon and some kick ass g that can bait kills for teammates. 3 attacks defog is baller guys use it

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

I guess Defog Latios is superior if you're using something like Zard-Y offense and have to have to have hazards gone, or don't have anything to absorb Scald burns but Draco+Psyshock is stuffed by a whole bunch of com-mons like Ferrothorn, Heatran, Clefable, T-Tar (still qualifies as a com-mon? I think it does), Bisharp, AV Torn-T (seems to be losing a little bit of popularity but still), SpDef Hippo. I like having that third attack because you can pick what you want to keelhaul, HP Fire for Ferro and Sharp, Surf for Tran and Hippo, etc

 

[Celticpride]

So this thread's been kinda dead lately, so I'll just get some discussion points going.

How is Thundurus in the current meta? What sets are best for it? I feel like people don't talk about this mon nearly enough for how much damage it can do to teams and how many possible sets it has. Personally I've been running the mixed set to somewhat decent effect, and most people seem to forget that it can also take the role of a Knock Off spammer very effectively.

I've also noticed that Sand offense has been very solid lately. In particular, SD Excadrill beats a ton of common offensive builds. For some perspective, +1 LO Iron Head does 95%+ to Scarf Lando-T. Also,

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 386-456 (91.9 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

What is offense even supposed to do against this thing? Can't even throw Tank Chomp on to patch that weakness unlike say Lopunny or Metagross.

I find Volc to be very much usable in the current mets, and easy to enough to support. Specifically, a core of HP Ground Volc, Dianice (Talon check), and Pursuit Bisharp (or any Purusit trapper) works great when it comes to beating balanced teams, as the Latis are often the only checks to HP Ground + Giga Drain Volc on some balanced teams, and Bisharp just traps away.

The Nidoking hype is real, in my opinion. Use of Sucker Punch can also make up for slightly less desirable speed stat. Between STABs and some combination of Sucker Punch or other coverage it can really pull its own weight in breaking defensive cores. At first I thought people were just trying to shove Nido into the Landorus-I wallbreaker role but as time went on it established itself as something really legit.

So yeah just trying to jump start a discussion in this thread. Argue with my opinions, post your own, whatever. Just get some healthy conversation going :)

 

[bludz]

Metagame --> offense?

Thundurus is a boss again. Any and all of its sets are pretty deadly, all it really wants is Thunderbolt and after that there's a bunch of options to choose from. I find that the most standard set is still extremely deadly and even changing up one coverage move doesn't hurt it from being really good. I like Knock Off and I don't even think it has to go with the full mixed set to utilize it nicely.

 

[MANNAT]

I've found Sand Offense+Hawlucha+Zardy pretty good recently because it has the speed to beat offense as well as the power to beat bulkier teams.

 

[Norne]

The metagame is bafflingly on the offensive side wich immediately boost thundurus utility, I'm actually really fond of mixed thundurus in this metagame.

Sand offense always benefits from a metagame centered on offense, and as long as you have a way past godchomp it can become a win condition against HO, as stated before double weather sand offense is quite threatening to face.

Finally, I'm not sold on Nidoking even with the added option to sucker punch the metagame favors HO too much for it to get the job done, AV Tornadus is on decline from my experience but some other Pokémon have a field trip on Nidoking, and those are the ones you don't want to get a free turn.

 

[Machi]

The metagame is bafflingly on the offensive side wich immediately boost thundurus utility, I'm actually really fond of mixed thundurus in this metagame.

Baffling? I think the viability thread reflects the answer to this with the constant rise in Manaphy and Hoopa-U, or at the very least a noticeable shift since Hoopa-U was introduced. It is not all that odd since another wall breaker basically filled in the gap of Lando-I and added yet again another layer of pressure to defensive teams, which had picked up momentum after Lando-I had been banned.

 

[Norne]

Baffling? I think the viability thread reflects the answer to this with the constant rise in Manaphy Hoopa-U, or at the very least a noticeable shift since Hoopa-U was introduced. It is not all that odd since another wall breaker basically filled in the gap of Lando-I and added yet again another layer of pressure to defensive teams, which had picked up momentum after Lando-I had been banned.

I honestly find him inferior to other posible choices of wallbreakers, despite his obvious strengths the metagame makes him feel redundant as hell in the team building process. It might be just me but he falls flat with the common metagame trends. He can't cover Landorus I spot at all he got an entirely different speed tier to compensate.

 

[Machi]

I honestly find him inferior to other posible choices of wallbreakers, despite his obvious strengths the metagame makes him feel redundant as hell in the team building process. It might be just me but he falls flat with the common metagame trends. He can't cover Landorus I spot at all he got an entirely different speed tier to compensate.

Inferior or not, and arguably considering his ranking (regardless he is within the A- to S Rank), the point is you have another wallbreaker who can hit on both sides of the spectrum that hits the relevant Poison/Psychic/Steel (everything else takes a shit ton) defensive cores you see running around which MLop/MAero/MManetric etc appreciate having removed. It basically taxes the play style further, not because of any potential suspects but that the play style is overloaded (and mixed attackers being the most difficult to manage). While making it considerably easier for offense to be played, not only in having him lessen the burden against defensive teams but also that offensive teams in general find him easier to exploit (in so much that he tends to be a momentum sink against such teams). It becomes "safer" to play offense if you will.

And by Lando-I I mean simply a wall breaker that just has so much immediate power behind him, and has a movepool to boot.

 

[aceguy123]

I've been cheesing through the ladder with rain for a while now and I think it's a much more viable team option than people make it out to be. Running a prankster rain setter with Thundurus or Klefki can make all the difference and really turn the tides when your opponent spends a lot of time trying to get rid of Politoed and thinks they have the favorable position to win.

Rain gives incredible utility and power to your team with the right members, many of which are very powerful meta mons like Torn-T, Thundurus, Ferrothorn, Scizor, Keldeo, Azumarill, and of course Manaphy. Rain makes Manaphy absolutely disgusting giving it the power to run Rest + Tailglow + 2 Attacks making it nigh unbeatable in Rain. Having Swift Swim abusers basically means you have mons that you can send out at any time with +2 with water attacks and +2 in speed with no setup time.

The main argument against rain is the dependency on rain for the mons to work with but the secondary setters solve this problem much of the time and when they don't, as I said many of these mons are top tier in any context. Thundurus and Klefki really don't sacrifice much to run the weather setter sets as their general sets are Electric stab/ thunder wave/ coverage/ filler for Thundurus and Attack move/ thunder wave/ spikes/ filler for Klefki so you just run Rain Dance in the filler spot. Also there's always an argument for needing Politoed which yes is needed pretty much however he's not nearly as bad as he's made out to be. Having a general bulky water that can encore actually puts in work often, surprising many a setup sweeper that sees Politoed as deadweight.

The playstyle still isn't BW level and never will be but I think that there are plenty of mons to work with in the style that are good anyways and even better in rain and there are creative ways of keeping rain up that are underutilized.

 

[Expert_Occultist]

I'm at the mid 1500s mark on the ladder and I'm noticing a trend more towards bulky teams and stall. This may be because I'm also noticing a decrease in the amount of Hoopas being used even on offense. Anyone else notice this? Is this true of the higher ladder as well?

 

[p2]

Higher ladder is plagued with really fat shit and stall because gothitelle mostly enables it all due to its bullshit ability to filter out nearly all stallbreakers.

They're also the safest playstyles because they aren't as likely to get fucked over on matchup like offense and is generally much easier to play than offense (dont need to make many risky plays / double switches / constant overpredicts etc)

 

[Flamer]

goth stall is 65% more likely to cause cancer than being at Chernobyl for 2 hours

 

[p2]

only 65%?

 

[Flamer]

You can stay a maximun of 2 hours at Chernobyl until you pretty much have to leave.

Average Gothstall match time (assuming no forfeits) ~40 mins

If gothstall is 65% more effective at causing cancer then 120-(120 x 0.65)=40

120-(120 x 0.65)=42

So yes, gothstall is around 65% more cancerous

 

[dwp]

I'm really interested in using Reuniclus. I missed the hype train in BW, but apart from an abysmal typing this thing seems to have a pretty sick movepool and ability set to choose from.

The rankings set thread has CM Reuni listed as B and OTR listed as C+, but I was wondering if anyone had any experience using any other sets, such as regenerator + choice specs/assault vest. I've also heard rumors of an overcoat sleep absorber set but that honestly sounds pretty gimmicky at best.

What do people generally think about this mon and/or its lesser used sets? Is it possible to build around it successfully in a hard-hitting knock-off spam meta?

 

[SketchUp]

Mega Zam is one of the best mega's at the moment and Clefable is one of the beste setup sweepers at the moment and any team that is prepared for both of them is going to be able to handle Reuniclus pretty well (bar some exceptions like Chansey, Klefki and Empoleon) CM Reuni can be really good in a metagame like this, but counters are just way too common.
It's not that hard to build around because it checks stuff like Medicham / CM Clef and also stops bulky mons like Hippowdon, Ferrothorn and Bulky Starmie from doing anything bar laying / removing hazards. Also most counters of Reuniclus are either easy to switch in to (unaware clef, mandi) or are pressured a lot by hazards (volc / zards / quag / mew) Giving the right support to Reuniclus is easier than giving it to something like Mega Latias or Mega Gyara. Spikes setters like Klefki and Offensive Roserade have pretty nice synergy with Reuniclus because Reuniclus + Spikes is just an amazing combination. There are still some big threats to a Reuni + Klefki/Rose core like Zard Y, Volcarona, MSableye, Jirachi and SD Gliscor, but you still have a really solid core.

 

[p2]

http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-09/ou-1695.txt

Usage stats aren't too different than usual
Klefki's gaining more usage and sitting at 5.5% compared to the lower end of 4% last month
| 47 | Mew | 4.16575% | 161398 | 4.038% | 127586 | 4.258% |
| 48 | Pinsir | 3.77724% | 98821 | 2.473% | 70201 | 2.343% |
| 49 | Gothitelle | 3.76132% | 49289 | 1.233% | 36895 | 1.231% |
| 50 | Zapdos | 3.65043% | 147255 | 3.685% | 113887 | 3.801% |
| 51 | Togekiss | 3.59071% | 176586 | 4.418% | 127532 | 4.256% |
| 52 | Celebi | 3.58877% | 117003 | 2.928% | 89271 | 2.979% |
| 53 | Amoonguss | 3.40232% | 68912 | 1.724% | 50277 | 1.678% |
| 54 | Sylveon | 3.37124% | 253840 | 6.351% | 179872 | 6.003% |
| 55 | Medicham | 3.35198% | 100519 | 2.515% | 78992 | 2.636% |
| 56 | Conkeldurr | 3.30717% | 258691 | 6.473% | 192112 | 6.412% |

We lose 2 shitmons, steal Pinsir from NU and Gothaids bounces right back from whatever tier its at right now. Zapdos is still hanging on for some reason. Also someone tell Breloom to stop gaining usage please.

edit: oh well, if these trends stay the same then those mons will likely drop / rise whenever the next tier shift
edit2: my bad I forgot it was something really low / high needed to quick drop / rise

 

[Celticpride]

fleggumfl i don't think it's a tier shift month, and none of those were in quick drop quick rise range.

 

[Martin]

Recently I've been messing around with darkspam and I've had a surprising amount of success with it. 3/4 darkmons+wobbuffet is capable of pulling teams apart with relative ease, and with lots of great options at your disposal including Bisharp, Weavile, Hydreigon and Hoopa-U it becomes surprisingly difficult for you to be reliably taken on, as most checks to the playstyle flat-out lose to Wobb.

Speaking of Wobb, I've been putting it on a large number of teams recently simply because it is just so good at what it does. The ability to take a dump on both offense and defense is huge for so many teams, and often people undersell its ability to do what it does. I've personally had a lot of success with its Custap set recently. The ability to guarantee at least 2 kills per match with CounterCoat+Custap D-Bond is incredibly helpful in so many situations and on so many teams (such as the aforementioned darkspam). Something people undersell with Wobbuffet is also its versatility. Sure, its movepool is about as small as Joltik, but its unique stat spread and access to CounterCoat means that it can fill a variety of roles to deal with the needs of the team (ranging from a bulky Sitrus set with Safeguard to protect teammates like BD Azu from status to a Custap set with Destiny Bond who's aim is to score one last ditch KO/Encore to thwart your opponent and even to a faster spread (this is helpful to teams which have major weaknesses to certain Pokémon/types - such as darkspam to fighting or birdspam to electric/rock) with Tickle aimed at breaking down walls). It beats phazers 1v1 once they've used any of their other moves (negative priority lets you them into SR, for example) and it is able of providing huge numbers of setup opportunities for teammates while also taking out major threats to balanced/offensive teams (especially choice users) with ease.