3v3 Singles Metagame Discussion Thread [The Pentagon is back!!]

[NOVED]

Alright im gonna compare season 10 and season 11 usage stats and hopefully we can arise some discussion of the changes. I'm gonna list some significant rises/drops. Not gonna bother mentioning +/- 1 or 2 spots right now.

Lando-T dropped from 5 to 10.

Cress rose from 20 to 16. And looking at what it passed, there was a lot of other defensive pokemon ahead of it(zapdos, p2, ferro) but in s11, all those dropped as well and now cress is ahead of them. Zapdos especially took a huge drop from 19 to 24.

As we saw when mamoswine rose, Charizard dropped a ton, from 8 to 13. And one of zards popular partners, hippowdon, also had a similar drop, from 21 to 26.

Conk rose from 39 to 34, above Raiko, Volcarona, Excadrill and Gardevoir(gard dropped from 32 to 38).

Chansey dropped under 50. Clefable rose from 50 to 44.

Rotom-H went from 36 to 28!

Mega Mawile went from 24 to 19.


The top 3 remain about the same and Thundurus' steady rise hasn't changed either.

Some of these rises could be correlated with each other, cress rising to deal with mamo, zapdos dropping because of rise in mamo, etc etc. What do you guys think? Anything stand out to you?

 

[cant say]

I went ahead an edited nouthuca's table to show how each of the Top 50 have risen or fallen this season, since we were talking about it on PS!

While I was too busy focusing on the mons outside of the top 12, I forgot to point out how much Landorus-T has dropped! 5 places in a single season is a pretty drastic change, I'm guessing it has to do with the increase in Mamoswine that we've been seeing. After Cresselia's steady decline from the top 12 and beyond, it's finally seeing some more usage, might also have something to do with Mamoswine? Ground-immunity that isn't weak to either Ice or Rock is pretty good I guess. Rotom-H was the biggest mover, going up a whole 8 places! Not 100% sure on the reason for that, I guess it also has that cool Ground-immunity and can hit Mamo with Overheat, although don't most Mamo use Thick Fat?

What does everyone else think of these moves? Do you think they are an accurate representation of what you run into?

 

[Melon Vodka]

Maybe Rotom-H went up 'cause stops who Rotom-W can stop, but the difference is one: It's not weak to serperior and resist to Thundurus, things that Rotom-W hasn't.
Azumarill dunno, maybe 'cause the increase of Mamoswine, and then it resist to Blaziken... but stop, this is all.
Many 'mons have a big drop like Landorus-t (rip my old friend, maybe you'll return in your incarnate form):
gardevoir -6, too frail and the top mons are very fast.
Zapdos -5, I don't want know why lol.
Hippowdon -5, oh, happy hippo. serperior, rotom-W, azumarill, suicune, greninja are your problems and physicall mons that you must counter are dropped, nobody needs you anymore lol.
Venusaur -5: ?? Venusaur existed in bss?
Gyarados -1: Noooooh!

Where's Pangoro? lol

Hey, Big increase for Mawile but... well, you know, in the top 10 mons there's not a Pokémon that cannot hit hard mawile. Dunno if the steel/fairy will see another increase.

cant say you missed a number next to heracross (number 30)

 

[Jibaku]

Notable mons that Rotom-H covers:
- Talonflame
- Thundurus
- Aegislash (SpDef spread)
- Landorus-T (kinda)
- Mega Salamence (w/ HP Ice)
- Mamoswine (usually can't hurt Rotom-H)
- Mega Charizard Y
- Serperior
- Ferrothorn
- Mega Mawile
- Hippowdon

Now there are more than this, but I'm not going to list them all. Rotom-H breaks several cores and pairings such as Salamence/Mamoswine, Salamence/Ferrothorn, double genies, ZardY/Hippo, and Talonflame/Ferrothorn. Its ability to handle Ferrothorn, Serperior, Aegislash, CharizardY, and Mawile sets it apart from Rotom-W. Additionally, it doesn't have many losing matchups against some of the most common mons in the game, despite its subpar stats.

 

[GroudonEmpire]

So Theorymon can see and clearly me that the abundance of Rotom-H and Mawiles that I saw (and also give many of my teams terrible matchups) was a special quality of season 11! NICE TO KNOW!
the amount of times i complained about the frequency of matching up vs any of them and especially their pairs! ...


...phew

 

[DragonWhale]

Suicune: 2nd in usage, 60% of them carry Sheer Cold, and its number one most defeated opponent is... Suicune.

The Cold War has begun, my comrades.

 

[cant say]

LOL

see you guys on the special ladder

 

[Melon Vodka]

at the start I thought maybe Suicune was so strong just 'cause it's a news but I must admit it: Suicune is a big uber threat. Now, I'm not going to talk about extremespeed (and even if it's the minus thing here, there's so much to talk about) and let's take Sheer Cold in the visual with suicune. Suicune is not like the usual frail mons that can run OHKO moves like Glalie, which must count on Moody, Mamoswine with all its weakness or gliscor: but lol, Gliscor; Suicune has a good moverpool: scald, Ice beam, mirror coat; and it is so freaking bulky, and a set with rest or Sitrus berry makes this beast a nightmare.

If glalie misses a Sheer Cold, there's the risk the opponent kills your glalie since a mono-ice is not so bulky lol; but if Suicune misses a sheer cold is very small the chance to kill it in one hit and the beast can continue with sheer cold or use Ice beam or scald (with the burn, suicune can nerf some pokémon, not like glalie which needs a paraspam).

Yeah I said nothing that you already knew, it was just to mark the point.

(I dunno if is clear what i'm saying, my translator is dead :P )

 

[Demantoid]

Sheer Cold Suicune is so strong that a third of Suicune in doubles and two thirds in triples are running it. I had forgotten that Sheer Cold can be used with Assault Vest which makes it so bulky (lives specs Thundurus-T's t-bolt with no investment in special defense).

The special usage stats are looking kind of weird right now due to there being so few above 1600. Why is Pyroar Gyarados' number 1 partner?

 

[Hulavuta]

at the start I thought maybe Suicune was so strong just 'cause it's a news but I must admit it: Suicune is a big uber threat. Now, I'm not going to talk about extremespeed (and even if it's the minus thing here, there's so much to talk about) and let's take Sheer Cold in the visual with suicune. Suicune is not like the usual frail mons that can run OHKO moves like Glalie, which must count on Moody, Mamoswine with all its weakness or gliscor: but lol, Gliscor; Suicune has a good moverpool: scald, Ice beam, mirror coat; and it is so freaking bulky, and a set with rest or Sitrus berry makes this beast a nightmare.

What does "gliscor: but lol, Gliscor" mean?

 

[Melon Vodka]

It's not very used

 

[Hulavuta]

It's not very used

Really? I both use and see it often, and it's more common than Glalie according to the chart in cant say's post.

 

[Melon Vodka]

Really? I both use and see it often, and it's more common than Glalie according to the chart in cant say's post.

Mmh It's true, but glalie works only with it's sheer cold set while gliscor can have other uses.

 

[cant say]

Mmh It's true, but glalie works only with it's sheer cold set while gliscor can have other uses.

If you check out Gliscor's usage stats on the PGL you'll see that its most common set (by far) is its SubProtect Guillotine one. With that + it's placement on the top 50 leads me to believe it isn't such a "lol"-worthy set...

(Hula and I are probably just getting defensive because we both use it haha)

 

[Melon Vodka]

I wasn't saying gliscor sucks, I said OHKO users are frail (Glalie and Mamoswine first, Mamo can run avest set but anyway it's a ice-type, it has many weakness). Gliscor has a big defense, however is x4 from ice attacks. Suicune is balanced with its defences and has just 2 weaknesses and both are x2.

(Hula and I are probably just getting defensive because we both use it haha)

lol, it's ok, if I said something wrong it is right you tell where's I wrong. I should say you thanks :P

 

[Jibaku]

nouthuca has released usage-by-rating and the highest usage % differences relative to last season, also by rating. Check them out

Usage by rating: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8pN2nmVtwpQ/VfqsjliUUeI/AAAAAAAACdg/IcVWEa2ZlNA/s1600/KPS11_01.png
(First column is 1450-1600, second column is 1600-1800, third is 1800+. Someone double check these my Japanese is bad).

Highest percentage differences by rating: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Sln-Ftm-yRs/Vfqskdosu3I/AAAAAAAACds/pTcONXdPu_w/s1600/KPS11_04.png
Same columns as the other one. This is sorted out by the highest percentage difference, positive or negative. Landorus-T actually didn't drop much - everything else just got used more. Salamence is interesting because it gained 1.97% in 1450-1600, but lost 5.92% in 1800+. However, there are more people in the 1600 area than there are in 1800+, somewhat balancing out the scores

EDIT: They only record from those who used his app. However, it's still a pretty decent picture.

 

[DragonWhale]

Interesting to see that great jump of Garchomp in 1800+. I'd thought the numbers dwindled when Mamo became popular, but the king of Battle Spot retains his position ever so strongly it seems. Mamoswine seems to have dropped there too.

Also reporting that people are running A LOT of speed on Suicune despite being a minus nature. I've been slowly adjusting the speed of mine (I'm at 212 speed right now to live +1 MCX, bar max roll) and I'm still getting outsped. This might be the only time you'll see 252 on a minus nature pokemon lol.

 

[Theorymon]

I plan on using Magnezone in this metagame. It's a sturdy mon that gets STAB electric moves, which sounds really handy against Suicune! However, I'm not quite sure what to run on it, since in the past the only Magnezone I saw ran Specs. Got any interesting ideas people?

 

[Psynergy]

I plan on using Magnezone in this metagame. It's a sturdy mon that gets STAB electric moves, which sounds really handy against Suicune! However, I'm not quite sure what to run on it, since in the past the only Magnezone I saw ran Specs. Got any interesting ideas people?

From my experiences with it, Specs is pretty much the best thing for it. It's awesome with Analytic but Sturdy is obviously more enticing with Sheer Cold Suicune around. I've tried a niche Custap Berry set before but that doesn't have enough immediate power with the trade-off of being practically guaranteed a second hit (or a poor man's Prankster T-Wave as a last resort), which could be neat for giving a partner some more leverage later in the game. For the purposes of Suicune I feel Specs would be the safest way to nuke it immediately. As for set Magnezone pretty much only has Thunderbolt/Volt Switch/Hidden Power Ice/Flash Cannon, there's literally no other options unless you want like Thunder Wave or Signal Beam.

 

[Melon Vodka]

I plan on using Magnezone in this metagame. It's a sturdy mon that gets STAB electric moves, which sounds really handy against Suicune! However, I'm not quite sure what to run on it, since in the past the only Magnezone I saw ran Specs. Got any interesting ideas people?

Yep. Me, Psynergy and NOVED were talking about it on BS room. Magnezone seems to be the only 'mon that can contain every suicune's move except for mirror coat (but it's the 7# move used). Then Magnezone is not the best Pokémon in BSS, Choice Specs set is the best way imo, at least if the opponent switches out suicune you're sure to hit hard who enters (unless it's a ground-type, volt absorber etc.) If Magnezone has choice specs and Suicune has not evs in SpDef / assault vest thunderbolt is OHKO.

I am not an expert, but for now I don't see any viable mon to use against suicune (Someone that resists Sheer cold I mean)

 

[ethan06]

If you're pulling that then Scarf Magneton might be a good option to cover Talonflame as well. You can also pull some mindgames with opposing Steels so that they get benched, leaving you free to set up things like Mega Beedrill, CM Sylveon, BD Azumarill etc. js

 

[cant say]

Looks like Suicune has proven too powerful for even Garchomp! The poor guy has finally lost his #1 spot, now sitting in 3rd! Is this Sheer Cold spam just a fad? Or is it here to stay?

If you're pulling that then Scarf Magneton might be a good option to cover Talonflame as well. You can also pull some mindgames with opposing Steels so that they get benched, leaving you free to set up things like Mega Beedrill, CM Sylveon, BD Azumarill etc. js

Yeah but see this is why I like the idea of Assault Vest + Mirror Coat Suicune here because these special attackers (ie: Magnezone) come in and you just bop them with Mirror Coat. I feel like the only play I'd wanna try is Volt Switching into a Dark-type or something, lol. Not to mention that Timid Scarf 'Zone (which is the only one that can outspeed the fast Tflames) lacks a lot of power compared to the Modest Specs one, which means it's gonna need some help taking down those damn Suicune..

• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 224-266 (108.2 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO [ok yeah nice]

• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 174-206 (84 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [yeah pretty good too]

• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Suicune: 152-180 (73.4 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [getting ~25% prior damage on this guy couldn't be too hard, right?]

• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Suicune: 116-140 (56 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO [you're gonna want to have hurt this guy pretty badly prior to this, otherwise your non-Dark switch in is dying]

• 252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Suicune: 92-110 (44.4 - 53.1%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO [mmm]

• 252 SpA Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Suicune: 72-86 (34.7 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO [damn this thing is tanky]

Suicune is pretty strong you guys

 

[DragonWhale]

252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 224-266 (108.2 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO [ok yeah nice]

That feel when STAB SE Specs 90BP from 200SpA is barely enough to OHKO this thing...

 

[6tennis]

I feel like the other dogs should be getting more attention, namely ESpeed Entei. What potential does it have in this metagame, now that Pentagon is off? Does it have too many counters to be viable in BSS? What kind of support does it need to be effective?

(I play Entei in OU, so there's a high chance I'm overhyping him, but that's why I'm asking.)

 

[ethan06]

Entei's always been pretty good simply due to how valuable having a good Fire STAB can be for dealing with Ferrothorn, Aegislash, Serperior, Scizor et al, and when that Fire STAB is Sacred Fire then the sky's the limit. Having Extreme Speed to pick things off is really nice and rounds off an Assault Vest set really well, especially considering how much Entei's coverage sucks (Bulldoze ;_;). Choice Band is nice too but makes ESpeed less nice to be locked into when you could just be clicking Sacred Fire repeatedly.

edit: Think Aura Sphere Raikou has any potential? Rash nature robs it of its Speed tier but it still ties with Jolly Khan and it now bulldozes Ferrothorn which is a plus. Weather Ball could be fun to play around with too but idk