Battle Maison Discussion & Records

Regarding "there being no perfect team," I know. However, there is a concept (or scale, perhaps) or "unviable" and "viable," which a team with Swampert, Gastrodon, and, Palpitoad being right at the bottom of "unviable" and the record-breaking teams here being right at the nice end of "viable." Unless there were some game-breaking mechanic involving these Water/Ground trio, no strategy could push them towards the "viable" end because of their extreme defensive weakness, let alone their lackluster coverage and so on.

My utility was going to handle damage calculations across all Pokemon you may encounter and the moves they may use. That's necessary to determine how well your team or Pokemon compares, just comparing stats or types won't do much... It would also show your offensive capabilities.

Seriously, I'm well aware how Pokemon battling works competitively (Maison or against another player). Like I said, any utility would only be used to provide a broad look at the effectiveness of a team from a broad viewpoint. Of course it's not going to make someone who sucks at team building or has no idea what strategies work any better.
Once you get outside of singles, your team's defensive capabilities are largely governed by forcing the opponent into using ineffective attacks due to Protect and bait Pokemon, and from there anything that walls your team just gets ganged up on at the end. This is true to some extent for Singles too, where a team that looks extremely weak on paper to something with Rock/Ground coverage easily defeats it by switching back and forth.

I think it would be more useful to rank the opposition according to physical/special/overall bulk (and the strongest individual attacks they can dish out) so you can quickly see something like "with this spread, my Salamence can KO everything less bulky than X with a +2 neutral Return" or "if I want a safe switch-in to Refrigerate Hyper Beam, I need a Pokemon with this amount of special bulk, which corresponds to X for a 2x resist and Y for a quad resist."
 
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turskain

activated its Quick Claw!
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
I put Maison sets into the Showdown calculator: https://turskain.github.io

Import Team already allowed you to load in the Maison sets for convenience (thanks to VaporeonIce), but it wasn't possible to utilize them with the mass damage calculation features. Now you can.

Instructions for mass damage calculations:
1. Go to All vs One or One vs All
2. Check Maison (for all 864 sets), Common (for the 236 most common sets), or 40+ (for the 592 sets that appear past battle 40)
3. Set field parameters to Doubles if you're calculating for Doubles/Triples
4. Click Honkalculate.





2015/09/17: Small update - I added an "UU" tier that contains Set4s and legendary Set1-2s (236 sets total) for more convenient mass damage calculations. To mass calc against just these sets instead of every single set, check UU instead of OU.

2015/09/23: Update courtesy of sb879. The calc is now much prettier, and includes proper tier names and a new 40+ tier that includes the 592 sets that show up past battle 40, with no noise in the drop-down set picker.

2016/01/09: Merged movelist changes from honko-damagecalc and added new moves. All moves used by Maison sets should now be included; howewer, OHKO moves and various special moves are not implemented and are only dummy moves for set look-up purposes. Note that held items are still missing, so the calculator is not a replacement for set data look-ups.

If you aren't seeing the changes, try clearing browser cache and offline data (Ctrl+Shift+Del and checking the appropriate checkboxes in many browsers).
 
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I put Maison sets into the Showdown calculator: https://turskain.github.io

Import Team already allowed you to load in the Maison sets for convenience (thanks to VaporeonIce), but it wasn't possible to utilize them with the mass damage calculation features. Now you can.

Instructions: go to All vs One or One vs All, check OU, set field parameters to Doubles if you're calculating for Doubles/Triples, and click Honkalculate.




This is pretty ugly - I just replaced the set data with Maison sets. A proper solution might involve adding Maison as a separate format for this purpose, but that's beyond my copy-paste skills.
I was finding the import was having a really bad time actually keeping the sets in, so this is freaking brilliant. A quick run through the calculator tells us that, among Pokemon you'll see after battle 40, only Aggron4, Bastiodon1-4, Probopass1-4, Magnezone3-4, Steelix4, Regirock1-4, Gigalith1-2, Rhyperior4, Tyrantrum2, and Tyranitar1 can survive a +6 Mega Salamence Aerilate Return. It can also be established for determining good cutoffs for when to stop boosting (e.g. +3, +4) depending on the specific threats you can OHKO or 2HKO. For example, a +4 Mega Mence misses some Gigalith, Empoleon, Metagross, Tyranitar, Registeel, Heatran, Barbaracle, Skarmory, Golem, Lanturn, and Carracosta sets, but maintains the 2HKO on Magnezone, Regirock, and Rhyperior. You can weight how dangerous those threats (along with other annoying back-ups they might be paired with, like Sturdy Donphan4) are to the rest of your team when deciding whether to keep boosting or stop.

Thanks for putting this together!
 

NoCheese

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth!"
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
View attachment 49831
I threw a good suicune away, should I settle for nothing less then 31/x/31/?/31/?
You can certainly make due with weaker stats, but Suicune really values everything but its Attack. Speed in particular is really helpful, and is one of Suicune's biggest advantages compared to other similar options like Chansey and Mega Slowbro, as moving first makes beating certain bulky hard hitters and OHKO Pokemon much easier. With Substitute, for example, going first makes it easy to know when to resub and when to boost, Rest, or attack, and helps avoid the game of "oops, the foe got a crit and broke my sub early, and now gets to attack against me unprotected next turn before I get to resub." If you are using the Icy Wind version, higher Speed is important (as shown by Jumpman's many Speed EVs on top of a perfect IV) for outspeeding Garchomp4 after an Icy Wind. Naturally, you can make up for a lower IV with more investment into Speed EVs, but then you pay a price on bulk. Special Attack is the least important of the 5 stats that actually matter to Suicune, but high SpA does make muscling through water-resistant foes, other Calm Mind users, and Pokemon with recovery moves a bit easier. Still, if you are going to sacrifice a bunch of IVs somewhere (other than the obvious Attack), SpA is probably the safest loss.

On the Substitute version, you can sacrifice a few HP EVs (or IVs) very cheaply, since 205 HP Suciune pretty much plays the same as the max 207 HP version: you still can make four 51 HP Substitutes. That can help you make up for another close to but not quite perfect IV. Still, painful as the soft resetting can be, it's probably worth it to hold out for something that's close to perfect in all 5 relevant stats. If history suggests anything, it's that Suicune will serve you well not just now, but in future generations' battle facilities too, so it's worth taking the time to get an excellent one.
 
Well, I finally beat them and got the multi statue, on my sixth attempt. And by sixth attempt I mean sixth time I fought them and not sixth streak. I got there again with CharizardY and Typhlosion and said fuck it, went into the fight with them and got lucky as they didn't bring either Terrakion or Landorus. The fight was comprised of 2 Eruptions so there's no point in uploading the match. There's not much point in showing the teams I used either as they were mostly copied from here apart from some pokes. Thanks to everyone who tried to help and who posted their teams because this would've taken a lot more than 2 weeks to get all these statues if not for you.

Here are my babies: http://i.imgur.com/UYfKtzE.jpg




My phone doesn't have the best camera
 
You can certainly make due with weaker stats, but Suicune really values everything but its Attack. Speed in particular is really helpful, and is one of Suicune's biggest advantages compared to other similar options like Chansey and Mega Slowbro, as moving first makes beating certain bulky hard hitters and OHKO Pokemon much easier. With Substitute, for example, going first makes it easy to know when to resub and when to boost, Rest, or attack, and helps avoid the game of "oops, the foe got a crit and broke my sub early, and now gets to attack against me unprotected next turn before I get to resub." If you are using the Icy Wind version, higher Speed is important (as shown by Jumpman's many Speed EVs on top of a perfect IV) for outspeeding Garchomp4 after an Icy Wind. Naturally, you can make up for a lower IV with more investment into Speed EVs, but then you pay a price on bulk. Special Attack is the least important of the 5 stats that actually matter to Suicune, but high SpA does make muscling through water-resistant foes, other Calm Mind users, and Pokemon with recovery moves a bit easier. Still, if you are going to sacrifice a bunch of IVs somewhere (other than the obvious Attack), SpA is probably the safest loss.

On the Substitute version, you can sacrifice a few HP EVs (or IVs) very cheaply, since 205 HP Suciune pretty much plays the same as the max 207 HP version: you still can make four 51 HP Substitutes. That can help you make up for another close to but not quite perfect IV. Still, painful as the soft resetting can be, it's probably worth it to hold out for something that's close to perfect in all 5 relevant stats. If history suggests anything, it's that Suicune will serve you well not just now, but in future generations' battle facilities too, so it's worth taking the time to get an excellent one.
I don't like SRING at all, patience is not a virtue I own and would never bother SRING for a legendary I can't use in the maison, but like u say I figured that a good suicune is an investment and my only RNG efforts r from black, where he doesn't appear, so this is my best chance for a decent one. I'm hoping that it won't be 'too little too late' as the next games out will prob be a new gen and a new battle facility and the pentagon may become redundant but still for personal use id be able to carry him forward and he can test the waters of future battle facilities for me....as you said in the past that bulky waters always do well in the maison/subway etc
 

NoCheese

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth!"
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
A couple more things. First, turskain, the preloaded sets in the damage calculator are wonderful. Huge thanks for doing that! I've added a link to the front page.

Second, as I hinted at earlier, I started playing around with Chansey in singles, combining it with a problem Pokemon that looks good on the surface but has had a remarkably hard time actually pulling its weight and getting onto a successful team: Mega Slowbro.

My team is Dragonite / Chansey / Mega Slowbro. Dragonite is a relatively standard no bulk Adamant 252 Attack / 255 Speed version, same as I used in my previous singles streaks this generation. Chansey runs GG Unit's moveset and EVs, save for the fact that I run 84 Speed EVs (to outspeed Wailord4) and drop the HP accordingly, and also have 4 EVs in Special Defense to up it to an even number for a bigger Eviolite boost.

I started with a Slowbro that tried a little too hard to be a mixed wall, with a Calm nature, and near max HP and Special Defense (shaved 8 EVs from HP for 4 in Speed, Special Attack, and Defense), but found that it was unsatisfactory in actually walling physical attacks. Despite Slowbro's huge physical bulk, since it often has to switch in and take a hit before Mega Evolving, and then take a second hit post-Mega Evolving before it gets to use its first Iron Defense, powerful attacks and switch-turn crits were causing problems. Upon reflection, I realized that with Chansey already handling Special Attackers beautifully, it made sense to bias Slowbro heavily towards physical bulk. Accordingly, I settled on a Bold 244 / 0 / 252 / 4 / 4 / 4 set, with Scald / Iron Defense / Calm Mind / Rest.

With this kind of investment, Slowbro's physical bulk is ridiculous. 201 HP and 178 Def before Mega Evolving make switching into most attacks quite safe, and post Mega Evolution, 255 Def is just absurd for a level 50 Pokemon. At +6 Def, a Muk Explosion did something like 18 damage, which is nuts. While it can't imitate Suicune and set up against lots of Pokemon that hit it on its weak side (physical for Suicune, special here), against most physical attackers, it can fully Calm Mind up with ease, and at +6 SpD, few subsequent special attackers can break it, particularly given that it is immune to critical hits.

I always feel naked against crits, status, stat drops, and OHKOs without Substitute, but on this team, Slowbro doesn't really need it. Chansey handles the Substitute duty for beating OHKO users, Mega Slowbro is immune to critical hits, Calm Mind and Iron Defense can undo stat drops, and Rest clears non-volatile status conditions. This lets Slowbro run multiple boosting moves, which is a real joy. Humorously, even at +6 / +6 / +6, Slowbro laughs at Mandibuzz's Punishment.

Though I speak glowingly here, the team definitely has its issues. First, I'm only through 100 battles, which is an awfully small sample size.

Second, it is very slow. Chansey takes a lot longer than Suicune to stall things out thanks to the lack of Pressure, and even when fully set up, the reliance on Seismic toss means it is still often forced to stall out subsequent foes with recovery moves or an immunity to Normal-type attacks. Similarly, without Substitute, Slowbro often has to do a lot of stalling to avoid carrying a status condition forward into fights with foes two and three.

Taunt is also a big issue. While Suicune, even when not fully set up, can often muscle through things when taunted, neither Chansey nor Slowbro are as equipped to do likewise.

Minimize is a really clever way to pseudo-boost Chansey's bulk on both the physcial and special sides (Thanks GG Unit!), but frustratingly, it can be very unreliable, so sometimes Chansey can take an unexpected string of hits in a row. This puts even more emphasis on outspeeding foes, so I can safely resub before they get to hit me, so interestingly, I'm actually thinking of adding even more Speed EVs. Sadly, a natural target of 107 Speed (my preferred for Substitute Suicune, which outspeeds Sheer Cold Articuno2 and avoids Speed ties) requires a Timid nature and a ton of investment, so the question is how much I mind losing the physical bulk when I have Slowbro backup. Another option that seems at least mildly appealing is Defense Curl, which lets you eventually tank Physical attacks too, making subsequent Pokemon easier, and even allows you to boost up against certain weaker Curse users, since you'll outspeed them and so have Substitute to guard against crits. You're worse off than you would be with VaporeonIce's Growl against stronger ones though, since you can't out PP them and grind them down to -6 eventually, so you'll have to spend a lot of time tanking +6 Atk hits at +6 Def, where Chansey will often lose. My how I wish Cosmic Power were available. Another possible option, I guess, would be Calm Mind + Ice Beam Blissey, which can handle Special attacks beautifully, dodge Static/Flame Body, hit far harder once set up, thereby avoiding many stall grinds, and carry an item, though again, it would require leaning even harder on Slowbro to handle physical attacks.

Status is also remarkably irksome to Chansey. Seismic Toss sadly can trigger Flame Body and Static, and given that it takes a lot of hits for Chansey to kill things, the chance of those abilities triggering is very high. With no Rest, Chansey is stuck with status until it switches out, and having to switch, even if just for a turn, can be really costly if it leaves my other Pokemon damaged or themselves statused. And of course, Natural Cure doesn't help at all in a last Pokemon situation. Special Defense dropping moves and side effects hurt too, because Chansey relies on its large natural Special Defense, and has no way to boost to counteract drops.

Electric-types, especially in the lead, are a pain, as Dragonite and Slowbro don't match up particularly well with many of them, and Chansey can struggle with paralysis and the like. Worst of all is Jolteon4, which can Fake Tears Chansey, making it much worse at tanking attacks, and later paralyze it, even with a sub up, with Static. There's a reason Gliscor is so darn important to a lot of successful teams....

This has gone on a bit long so I'll wrap it up here, but I certainly intend to keep playing the team. It requires me to be a lot more attentive to certain enemy moveset details than I am with Suicune, and I feel I have not played very skillfully, but so far, the Pokemon themselves have performed reasonably well. I by no means think I've broken the Maison or trumped the Suicune/Chansey + Gliscor defensive core, but it's fun getting to explore Chansey's potential myself, and very nice letting Mega Slowbro find a little success too.
 
NoCheese , that is awesome. I look forward to seeing how it turns out! I love the Mega Slowbro + Chansey combo. You have a very good read on the threats to the team. I would definitely consider giving Chansey enough speed to outspeed Walrein4, as nothing else on your team manages it particularly well (and I wouldn't be afraid to attempt to set up Dragonite, knowing it might be sacrificed to bring Chansey in safely). As you identified, Substitute is definitely the way to go with Chansey on this team.
Don't be afraid to just kill Taunt users; while having a Pokémon set up is awesome, it's not always strictly necessary, particularly with Pokémon that are as good at switching in as Slowbro, Chansey, and Dragonite. I'm not really convinced that Mega Slowbro and Chansey aren't better at muscling through Taunt than Suicune; Mega Slowbro has much higher Special Attack, after all.
The "Natural Cure problem" is a big annoyance, though; I viewed Aegislash's Poison immunity as somewhat critical to my team's success. Fortunately, Slowbro's Fire and Ice resists make it a good deal easier to switch in to moves that induce burn/freeze, then switch back out against Ghost-type moves from the likes of Froslass/Glaceon.
I'm not sure why you're particularly worried about Curse users; I'd think Slowbro could switch in on them as soon as they come in and set up an Iron Defense, tanking the boosted hit easily (+2 Garchomp4 EQ does under 50% max to 252/252+ Mega Slowbro). Haxorus4, on the other hand, seems like a massive annoyance, with Dragon Tail preventing Mega Slowbro from walling its boosted attacks. But by and large, I think you could lean on Mega Slowbro pretty hard for physical attacks; even Lickilicky4's Explosion can't do 50%, and Electivire4's Thunder Punch can only manage 35% (but the switch-in sucks, and you may need to make a sacrifice). The most dangerous physical threat is Tyrantrum4's Head Smash, which CAN do over 50%, but even that can't win if you sacrifice Dragonite to bring Slowbro in, go Mega, Iron Defense, and Rest.
I would probably make a fair number of willing sacrifices playing this team, and most of the time, it would probably be Dragonite. The free switch-in to Mega Slowbro against physical attackers and Chansey against special attackers/OHKO users seems well worth it. I wouldn't be too scared of Mega Slowbro ending up burned or poisoned, since it should beat any switch-in that lacks a phasing move or a OHKO move anyway, thanks to the insane defense boosts.
Good luck!
 

Adamant Zoroark

catchy catchphrase
is a Contributor Alumnus
I have internet now, so I'm coming in with some updates on Zoroark / Doublade / Durant:

Zoroark exceeded my expectations. I didn't expect it to be as effective as it was, but due to Focus Sash + Counter, its frailty was actually beneficial. In addition, Illusion is actually pretty damn effective in Battle Maison as, in examples where the AI only has Psychic-type attacks, they'll behave as if Durant is on the field even if they've used Psychic like five times and it's done nothing. However, I really need to stop being a lazy-ass and just breed a Hasty one because several times I've just been in situations where, even after Counter + Sucker Punch, they lived with very little HP. I did have to replace Low Kick with Protect, however, as that turned out to be necessary to handle Fake Out leads (a streak with Drapion in place of Doublade ended at 54 wins because I didn't have Protect against a Fake Out Mienshao lead)

Replay: 82CW-WWWW-WW2P-APZL

This replay basically shows how Zoroark can potentially dismantle an entire team by itself. Then again, I did also get a Protect on a HJK, so that probably made things easier.

Doublade, however, I'm not sure about. It wasn't very consistent and I found it very difficult to even get to battle #30. I feel like Doublade would work better on a team where it's not the only sweeper; for example, having a team like Durant / Mega Gyarados / Doublade and using Doublade as a secondary sweeper to set up against Double Team users and not care about evasion boosts.

With that in mind, I quickly changed the team to this:

Zoroark (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
IVs: 31/31/0/xx/31/31
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Counter
- Sucker Punch
- Protect

Drapion (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
IVs: 31/31/31/xx/31/31
Adamant Nature
- Substitute *
- Protect
- Acupressure
- Knock Off

Durant (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Truant
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
IVs: 31/31/31/xx/31/31
Jolly Nature
- Entrainment
- Crunch
- Iron Head
- X-Scissor

* - Drapion only started using Substitute recently - as I had no internet, I could not access the TM for Substitute, which I have on Pokemon Y but not on OR, and this team is on OR. (only one 3DS...)

It's basically the same team I was using to test Doublade, but with Drapion instead. Zoroark is now using Protect to be able to handle Fake Out leads like Mienshao and Kangaskhan; Sucker Punch is the only attack I really need which could also potentially deal with Pokemon like Mismagius4 in the lead spot (I know from my Mega Absol run that Perish Song can be painful for Durant teams, and even moreso for this one since Drapion has to use Acupressure 21 times to max out every stat.) From my experience, Zoroark is borderline useless against most leads, but against the few leads it does help against (having Protect is really nice for beating Mienshao leads since otherwise, it would just HJK against Drapion's Protects and kill itself, preventing Drapion from setting up,) it drastically helps.

Replay: ZBGW-WWWW-WW2P-ARE4

This just shows the general strategy. If Zoroark can pull off a counter, go for that. I don't seem to have any replays that showcase how Taunt can come in handy, because this is otherwise just a typical Drapion set-up match.

Weaknesses? Uhh..... Dropping the 3DS? Oh, you want real counters? Fine.

Perish Trap. This shouldn't really need explaining. I had a good grip on this with Mega Absol, but on this team, Zoroark is vital in preventing any Perish Trap leads from destroying the team - however, if they come out AFTER Zoroark takes something out, then have fun.

High Jump Kick users. Drapion needs to use Acupressure 21 times to fully set up, and anything that uses HJK will not let that happen. Zoroark helps if it can Counter them while in the lead spot.

Other ideas for Zoroark

Scarf Memento - This could be nice for setting up sweeps with Drapion or something. In particular, I'd use a set like Trick / Dark Pulse / Memento / Filler with EVs of 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe (maximum HP investment just to be able to better take attacks from faster Choice Scarf leads) and just in general go for Memento as soon as possible unless another move would be better (for example, Trick if it would be better to take advantage of a TrickScarf strategy, Dark Pulse if I need to take out Mismagius4 or something) and have a team like Zoroark / Drapion / Whimsicott, with Whimsicott as a second Memento user so I can potentially bring the opponent to -4 (imagine how indestructible Drapion would be then? I'm not sure that's entirely necessary, though...)
 
Since there is no counter teaming (just law of averages) and the amount of combination possibilities would ultimately tell you that there is no 'perfect team' partly because it's not just about the pokes but how you use them.. Jumpman16 Kangliscune team isn't just made up of the 3 strongest pokes..its the way he uses them which is so formidable, something that a data sheet couldn't give you information on.
But what about an advanced damage calculator..where someone could input their poke and it's stats then ur program would feed back what AI poke could OHKO/2HKO then if I see for example that Thunderus4 focus blast OHKO 2 of my poke then I'd know I need either a counter or strategy to overcome him. Damage calcs are a pain as each one has to be done individually and only very experienced maison battlers or data lovers would know what AI poke carry moves that have the potential to wipe out one of your pokes so i think for teambuilding it can help in the early "theorymon' stages (hope this makes sense im on mobile, i'll edit it later if it doesnt!)
I've been working on a python script that sort of does that. I'm still sort of figuring out a good way to handle all the data (currently everything is an individual file, which is great for lookup but terrible for searches, and mostly what it needs to do is searches) so all it can currently do is give you a list of pokemon that can have a particular move. Eventually the idea is to be able to give it a set and have it return a list of all the potential threats to it, with EV changes that could potentially help you survive them. That's still on the horizon, though.
 
A couple more things. First, turskain, the preloaded sets in the damage calculator are wonderful. Huge thanks for doing that! I've added a link to the front page.

Second, as I hinted at earlier, I started playing around with Chansey in singles, combining it with a problem Pokemon that looks good on the surface but has had a remarkably hard time actually pulling its weight and getting onto a successful team: Mega Slowbro.

My team is Dragonite / Chansey / Mega Slowbro. Dragonite is a relatively standard no bulk Adamant 252 Attack / 255 Speed version, same as I used in my previous singles streaks this generation. Chansey runs GG Unit's moveset and EVs, save for the fact that I run 84 Speed EVs (to outspeed Wailord4) and drop the HP accordingly, and also have 4 EVs in Special Defense to up it to an even number for a bigger Eviolite boost.

I started with a Slowbro that tried a little hard to be a mixed wall, with a Calm nature, and near max HP and Special Defense (shaved 8 EVs from HP for 4 in Speed, Special Attack, and Defense), but found that it was unsatisfactory in actually walling physical attacks. Despite Slowbro's huge physical bulk, since it often has to switch in and take a hit before Mega Evolving, and then take a second hit post-Mega Evolving before it gets to use its first Iron Defense, powerful attacks and switch-turn crits were causing problems. Upon reflection, I realized that with Chansey already handling Special Attackers beautifully, it made sense to bias Slowbro heavily towards physical bulk. Accordingly, I settled on a Bold 244 / 0 / 252 / 4 / 4 / 4 set, with Scald / Iron Defense / Calm Mind / Rest.

With this kind of investment, Slowbro's physical bulk is ridiculous. 201 HP and 178 Def before Mega Evolving make switching into most attacks quite safe, and post Mega Evolution, 255 Def is just absurd for a level 50 Pokemon. At +6 Def, a Muk Explosion did something like 18 damage, which is nuts. While it can't imitate Suicune and set up against lots of Pokemon that hit it on its weak side (physical for Suicune, special here), against most physical attackers, it can fully Calm Mind up with ease, and at +6 SpD, few subsequent special attackers can break it, particularly given that it is immune to critical hits.

I always feel naked against crits, status, stat drops, and OHKOs without Substitute, but on this team, Slowbro doesn't really need it. Chansey handles the Substitute duty for beating OHKO users, Mega Slowbro is immune to critical hits, Calm Mind and Iron Defense can undo stat drops, and Rest clears non-volatile status conditions. This lets Slowbro run multiple boosting moves, which is a real joy. Humorously, even at +6 / +6 / +6, Slowbro laughs at Mandibuzz's Punishment.

Though I speak glowingly here, the team definitely has its issues. First, I'm only through 100 battles, which is an awfully small sample size.

Second, it is very slow. Chansey takes a lot longer than Suicune to stall things out thanks to the lack of Pressure, and even when fully set up, the reliance on Seismic toss means it is still often forced to stall out subsequent foes with recovery moves or an immunity to Normal-type attacks. Similarly, without Substitute, Slowbro often has to do a lot of stalling to avoid carrying a status condition forward into fights with foes two and three.

Taunt is also a big issue. While Suicune, even when not fully set up, can often muscle through things when taunted, neither Chansey nor Slowbro are as equipped to do likewise.

Minimize is a really clever way to pseudo-boost Chansey's bulk on both the physcial and special sides (Thanks GG Unit!), but frustratingly, it can be very unreliable, so sometimes Chansey can take an unexpected string of hits in a row. This puts even more emphasis on outspeeding foes, so I can safely resub before they get to hit me, so interestingly, I'm actually thinking of adding even more Speed EVs. Sadly, a natural target of 107 Speed (my preferred for Substitute Suicune, which outspeeds Sheer Cold Articuno2 and avoids Speed ties) requires a Timid nature and a ton of investment, so the question is how much I mind losing the physical bulk when I have Slowbro backup. Another option that seems at least mildly appealing is Defense Curl, which lets you eventually tank Physical attacks too, making subsequent Pokemon easier, and even allows you to boost up against certain weaker Curse users, since you'll outspeed them and so have Substitute to guard against crits. You're worse off than you would be with VaporeonIce's Growl against stronger ones though, since you can't out PP them and grind them down to -6 eventually, so you'll have to spend a lot of time tanking +6 Atk hits at +6 Def, where Chansey will often lose. My how I wish Cosmic Power were available. Another possible option, I guess, would be Calm Mind + Ice Beam Blissey, which can handle Special attacks beautifully, dodge Static/Flame Body, hit far harder once set up, thereby avoiding many stall grinds, and carry an item, though again, it would require leaning even harder on Slowbro to handle physical attacks.

Status is also remarkably irksome to Chansey. Seismic Toss sadly can trigger Flame Body and Static, and given that it takes a lot of hits for Chansey to kill things, the chance of those abilities triggering is very high. With no Rest, Chansey is stuck with status until it switches out, and having to switch, even if just for a turn, can be really costly if it leaves my other Pokemon damaged or themselves statused. And of course, Natural Cure doesn't help at all in a last Pokemon situation. Special Defense dropping moves and side effects hurt too, because Chansey relies on its large natural Special Defense, and has no way to boost to counteract drops.

Electric-types, especially in the lead, are a pain, as Dragonite and Slowbro don't match up particularly well with many of them, and Chansey can struggle with paralysis and the like. Worst of all is Jolteon4, which can Fake Tears Chansey, making it much worse at tanking attacks, and later paralyze it, even with a sub up, with Static. There's a reason Gliscor is so darn important to a lot of successful teams....

This has gone on a bit long so I'll wrap it up here, but I certainly intend to keep playing the team. It requires me to be a lot more attentive to certain enemy moveset details than I am with Suicune, and I feel I have not played very skillfully, but so far, the Pokemon themselves have performed reasonably well. I by no means think I've broken the Maison or trumped the Suicune/Chansey + Gliscor defensive core, but it's fun getting to explore Chansey's potential myself, and very nice letting Mega Slowbro find a little success too.
As you play more you'll get a better idea of when Chansey's Sub is due to break, so you can give special attackers just 2-3 chances to drop Special Defense or status if you're particularly concerned about it (not that you won't get trolled by something critting to break the sub and then paralyzing Chansey with the last Thunderbolt PP when you've got +6 Evasion). Also if Chansey KOs the lead with a Sub and maxed evasion, there isn't a special attacker that could come out second and capitalize on the -1 or -2 Sp. Def (well other than Clawitzer, but hopefully you'd switch to Slowbro and set up).

Chansey just needs a backup Toxic absorber, a Fighting resist, and a hard hitter in the lead position to deter opposing lead boosters and Perish Song users, and fortunately quite a few Pokemon can do two or more of those things. Dragonite seems like it's just kinda there as a good Pokemon that can occasionally make battles much shorter, and you'll definitely miss having passive recovery somewhere on the team against Taunt users; I dare say that a TrickScarfer could make for a very effective lead, with the idea being that you'd be Tricking or switching out much more often than trying to KO the lead outright.

I'll also note that this kind of Chansey with speed to outrun Walrein (oops, read Wailord as Walrein. Walrein is a little faster and requires 124 Speed EVs) can admirably fulfill the Whimsicott/Sableye role on a Durant team while also being a backup sweeper. Just lead with Durant (you can make it slower and more defensive to better handle leads like Medicham, Mienshao, and Machamp because Chansey can come in on Fire moves from Scarf Manectric, Garchomp, and Entei) and switch Chansey in on all those Protect/Detect/Fake Out/Explosion users that can't do too much damage to it.

It's basically the same team I was using to test Doublade, but with Drapion instead. Zoroark is now using Protect to be able to handle Fake Out leads like Mienshao and Kangaskhan; Sucker Punch is the only attack I really need which could also potentially deal with Pokemon like Mismagius4 in the lead spot (I know from my Mega Absol run that Perish Song can be painful for Durant teams, and even moreso for this one since Drapion has to use Acupressure 21 times to max out every stat.) From my experience, Zoroark is borderline useless against most leads, but against the few leads it does help against (having Protect is really nice for beating Mienshao leads since otherwise, it would just HJK against Drapion's Protects and kill itself, preventing Drapion from setting up,) it drastically helps.

Replay: ZBGW-WWWW-WW2P-ARE4

This just shows the general strategy. If Zoroark can pull off a counter, go for that. I don't seem to have any replays that showcase how Taunt can come in handy, because this is otherwise just a typical Drapion set-up match.

Weaknesses? Uhh..... Dropping the 3DS? Oh, you want real counters? Fine.

Perish Trap. This shouldn't really need explaining. I had a good grip on this with Mega Absol, but on this team, Zoroark is vital in preventing any Perish Trap leads from destroying the team - however, if they come out AFTER Zoroark takes something out, then have fun.

High Jump Kick users. Drapion needs to use Acupressure 21 times to fully set up, and anything that uses HJK will not let that happen. Zoroark helps if it can Counter them while in the lead spot.

Other ideas for Zoroark

Scarf Memento - This could be nice for setting up sweeps with Drapion or something. In particular, I'd use a set like Trick / Dark Pulse / Memento / Filler with EVs of 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe (maximum HP investment just to be able to better take attacks from faster Choice Scarf leads) and just in general go for Memento as soon as possible unless another move would be better (for example, Trick if it would be better to take advantage of a TrickScarf strategy, Dark Pulse if I need to take out Mismagius4 or something) and have a team like Zoroark / Drapion / Whimsicott, with Whimsicott as a second Memento user so I can potentially bring the opponent to -4 (imagine how indestructible Drapion would be then? I'm not sure that's entirely necessary, though...)
I'd use Roar over Sucker Punch to get Explosion and Perish Song leads off the field (don't even have to worry about evasion items from Mismagius and Lickilicky). I'd also have Zoroark disguised as Drapion so leads like Muk or Skuntank would be more likely to Explode turn 1 as you Protect. No reason to ever do damage with Zoroark other than Countering HJK users (I have been thinking about trying the Glalie team using a level 50 Sableye with Metal Burst to KO some Explosion leads like Skuntank, but I'm not even sure whether Flash or Gravity would be more replaceable) because you could very well do something like KO the lead with Counter and then have the 2nd Pokemon be Mienshao or Medicham, and then you've got nothing for them.
 
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NoCheese

Today I reached The battle 800 on Super Triples, can I have my record here?
If yes I can tell one of my teams, most used, but I change sometimes for boring reasons and show replay of current battle.

Thanks in advance.
 

NoCheese

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth!"
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
NoCheese

Today I reached The battle 800 on Super Triples, can I have my record here?
If yes I can tell one of my teams, most used, but I change sometimes for boring reasons and show replay of current battle.

Thanks in advance.
Absolutely feel free to post regarding the current version your team, and the sort of changes you've made. No problem with having shifting members. Per our rules though, I can't add you to the leaderboard until you either lose or reach 1000 wins. If you're at 800, though, you're already almost to the 1000 mark, so best of luck getting all the way there!
 
Absolutely feel free to post regarding the current version your team, and the sort of changes you've made. No problem with having shifting members. Per our rules though, I can't add you to the leaderboard until you either lose or reach 1000 wins. If you're at 800, though, you're already almost to the 1000 mark, so best of luck getting all the way there!
Thanks, so this week I will work to get 1000 and soon as possible I will post here my teams, I am playing and I feel my team very solid against all threats there.

Thanks again and see you.
 

NoCheese

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth!"
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
NoCheese , that is awesome. I look forward to seeing how it turns out! I love the Mega Slowbro + Chansey combo. You have a very good read on the threats to the team. I would definitely consider giving Chansey enough speed to outspeed Walrein4, as nothing else on your team manages it particularly well (and I wouldn't be afraid to attempt to set up Dragonite, knowing it might be sacrificed to bring Chansey in safely). As you identified, Substitute is definitely the way to go with Chansey on this team.
Don't be afraid to just kill Taunt users; while having a Pokémon set up is awesome, it's not always strictly necessary, particularly with Pokémon that are as good at switching in as Slowbro, Chansey, and Dragonite. I'm not really convinced that Mega Slowbro and Chansey aren't better at muscling through Taunt than Suicune; Mega Slowbro has much higher Special Attack, after all.

The "Natural Cure problem" is a big annoyance, though; I viewed Aegislash's Poison immunity as somewhat critical to my team's success. Fortunately, Slowbro's Fire and Ice resists make it a good deal easier to switch in to moves that induce burn/freeze, then switch back out against Ghost-type moves from the likes of Froslass/Glaceon.

I'm not sure why you're particularly worried about Curse users; I'd think Slowbro could switch in on them as soon as they come in and set up an Iron Defense, tanking the boosted hit easily (+2 Garchomp4 EQ does under 50% max to 252/252+ Mega Slowbro). Haxorus4, on the other hand, seems like a massive annoyance, with Dragon Tail preventing Mega Slowbro from walling its boosted attacks. But by and large, I think you could lean on Mega Slowbro pretty hard for physical attacks; even Lickilicky4's Explosion can't do 50%, and Electivire4's Thunder Punch can only manage 35% (but the switch-in sucks, and you may need to make a sacrifice). The most dangerous physical threat is Tyrantrum4's Head Smash, which CAN do over 50%, but even that can't win if you sacrifice Dragonite to bring Slowbro in, go Mega, Iron Defense, and Rest.

I would probably make a fair number of willing sacrifices playing this team, and most of the time, it would probably be Dragonite. The free switch-in to Mega Slowbro against physical attackers and Chansey against special attackers/OHKO users seems well worth it. I wouldn't be too scared of Mega Slowbro ending up burned or poisoned, since it should beat any switch-in that lacks a phasing move or a OHKO move anyway, thanks to the insane defense boosts.
Good luck!
As you play more you'll get a better idea of when Chansey's Sub is due to break, so you can give special attackers just 2-3 chances to drop Special Defense or status if you're particularly concerned about it (not that you won't get trolled by something critting to break the sub and then paralyzing Chansey with the last Thunderbolt PP when you've got +6 Evasion). Also if Chansey KOs the lead with a Sub and maxed evasion, there isn't a special attacker that could come out second and capitalize on the -1 or -2 Sp. Def (well other than Clawitzer, but hopefully you'd switch to Slowbro and set up).

Chansey just needs a backup Toxic absorber, a Fighting resist, and a hard hitter in the lead position to deter opposing lead boosters and Perish Song users, and fortunately quite a few Pokemon can do two or more of those things. Dragonite seems like it's just kinda there as a good Pokemon that can occasionally make battles much shorter, and you'll definitely miss having passive recovery somewhere on the team against Taunt users; I dare say that a TrickScarfer could make for a very effective lead, with the idea being that you'd be Tricking or switching out much more often than trying to KO the lead outright.

I'll also note that this kind of Chansey with speed to outrun Walrein (oops, read Wailord as Walrein. Walrein is a little faster and requires 124 Speed EVs) can admirably fulfill the Whimsicott/Sableye role on a Durant team while also being a backup sweeper. Just lead with Durant (you can make it slower and more defensive to better handle leads like Medicham, Mienshao, and Machamp because Chansey can come in on Fire moves from Scarf Manectric, Garchomp, and Entei) and switch Chansey in on all those Protect/Detect/Fake Out/Explosion users that can't do too much damage to it.
Thanks for the suggestions, guys! I've played the team more now, testing out a few changes with respect to Chansey, and I've been very satisfied.

First, as you note, having Chansey outrun Walrein is absolutely, positively essential for this team, and embarrassingly, I assumed that Wailord was faster and that Walrein was already covered. Whoops! Thankfully, I fixed that before Walrein fixed me!

Second, the more I've played, the more I want even more Speed on Chansey. When Chansey outruns its foe, everything is on easy mode. No more tracking damage to predict when the Substitute will break, no worries about a status attack, Leech Seed, or stat dropper slipping through, and no more having to burn through Substitute's PP on moves that will break the substitute if they hit but likely won't hit due to Minimize. Most notably, and expanding on the Substitute PP issue, going first means that a previously set-up Chansey is much more reliable against physical attackers. When I go first, I can merely re-Sub when the Sub is broken, not have to guess when my evasion boosts will fail, and otherwise merrily attack and Soft Boiled. So long as the foe doesn't string together a whole ton of hits in a row, Chansey should win. When I go second against a powerful physical attacker, I'm stuck in a bad situation, since I either have to predict a hit and Sub ahead of time, lest my Substitute be broken and Chansey ends up exposed to a strong physical hit the next turn, or just try to force through damage quickly and hope my Seismic Tosses kill before two hits land in a row. Oftentimes, of course, Seismic Toss will win this race, but against foes that can heal or the like, this is much dicier. And even if I just need to stall out one or two particularly threatening moves, pre-emptive Subing rapidly drains Substitute's PP, which can again invite awkward situations.

Accordingly, I did a bit more breeding, and for the past 100 battles or so, I've been using !!Timid!! Chansey, with a spread of 4 / 0 / 244 / 4 / 4 / 252, for stats of 326 / 17 / 56 (84) / 56 / 126 (189) / 112. For comparison, Bold 86 Speed, 252 Def Chansey has 15 more HP and 9 more (post-Eviolite) Defense.

I've been EXTREMELY impressed with this spread. Basically, the extra HP from a bulkier spread is worth very little to something with such huge HP, especially when I'm already committed to decent Speed investment to beat Walrein, while the 10% loss in Defense is easily outweighed by how much easier a time I have against foes, even physical ones, that Chansey now outruns.

And let me tell you, there are a lot of foes between 86 and 112 Speed. While I obviously won't directly switch a Chansey in on a physical attacker in this range, a previously set up Chansey can stay in and win against tons of them. This isn't a huge issue when things are going well (after all, there's always Slowbro!) but unusual situations, mistakes, sloppy play, bad luck and the like can happen, so I feel much happier having a Chansey that's both easier to play (going first makes things easier even against foes where Chansey wins when slower) and more reliable in handling threats it otherwise might not be able to. Take a scan through the Speed tiers list, and consider how much easier many of those foes are when Chansey outspeeds them. No more risk of Roserade slipping in a Leech Seed or Toxic, no more awkward Substitute spamming games with Articuno2, lest you let up and have it land two Sheer Colds in a row, etc. Honestly, the Speed investment has so impressed me that I'm very tempted to experiment with faster spreads on my old reliable Substitute Suicune.

While I currently believe that Timid Chansey with GG Unit's moveset is the best fit for this team, I also did, for comparison, some experimentation with Timid Blissey and a set of Substitute / Calm Mind / Soft Boiled / Ice Beam.

With the loss of Eviolite, you lose a bunch of Physical bulk, and some Special Bulk compared to Chansey. This is compounded by the loss of Minimize, which removes the ability to even pseudo-boost Chansey's Defense, meaning that you lean much more heavily on Slowbro for handling physical attackers. But you do at least get some reasonable compensation for the sacrifice.

First, you get to use Leftovers. Leftovers recovery makes up most of the initial loss in Special bulk, and makes Substitute games go a bit faster, as you don't need to Soft Boiled as often. Second, your ability to boost your Special Bulk even further is much more reliable than the pseudo-boosting of Minimize. Aura Sphere is no longer as much of an irritant. Third, you are a little faster than Chansey, and so gain the advantages of going first against more things. Fourth, Ice Beam does not make contact, so you avoid Flame Body / Static complications.

Additionally, and likely most importantly, Blissey needs to stall out far fewer things, and Blissey battles tend to go much faster. Blissey's SpA is nothing amazing, but unlike Chansey's, it is usable, and at +6, Blissey's Ice Beam can 2HKO a ton of stuff. This means Blissey can smash through many foes that heal themselves while Chansey is stuck in stall mode. Similarly, nothing is immune to Ice Beam, so Ghost-types (with certain exceptions like Chandelure) no longer doom Blissey to a massive stall-off. This is important because Growl-less Chansey doesn't actually have that many PP available, and lacking Pressure and the PP stalling beauty of Rest, stalling multiple foes can be tough. Even fully set up, Seismic Toss Chansey often has to stall or partially stall multiple foes out, and when a couple Ghost-types appear on a foe's team, this can be irksome. Blissey can also power through Perish Song Mismagius, which Chansey doesn't like at all.

Obviously (and I often use this in my battles) Chansey can frequently conserve its PP for potential future use by stalling out a foe's relevant moves and then switching to Dragonite or Slowbro to set up and start sweeping, so the issue of PP and my dislike of lengthy stalls is more an issue of time/convenience rather than a massive team weakness, but there is definitely value in being able to play faster. Also, in a related note, Chansey's immunity to Ghost-type attacks is a real mixed blessing. Yes, avoiding the risk of Special Defense drops from Shadow Ball is delightful, but sadly, the immunity also slows the stalling process. Neither Dragonite nor Mega Slowbro like taking repeated Shadow Balls, so until a foe uses up Shadow Ball's PP, I have to leave Chansey in to stall. Were Shadow Ball merely not very effective on Chansey, foes would use it up rapidly, letting me switch to Dragonite or Slowbro and set up pretty quickly, but since it's completely ineffective, foes typically wait to use it, and I have to burn a lot more time stalling Ghost-types out. Blissey can often avoid this problem, since it can actually hurt Ghost-types.

Finally, the decent power of +6 Ice Beam also means that previously set-up Blissey still beats a number of Physical attackers by simply 2HKOing them while they break its sub. This all said, I still feel that Chansey is the better and more reliable choice, but if you hate frequent mega stalls, Blissey is indeed quite playable.

A few notes on my lead: Dragonite could quite likely be improved upon (and a Trick-Scarfer lead certainly is tempting), but I appreciate Dragonite's ability to speed battles up and muscle through stuff that can cause complications for Chansey and Slowbro. I certainly am very willing to sacrifice and semi-sacrifice Dragonite against certain foes, but I'm not constantly playing for a sacrifice, since with such great walls on each end of the spectrum in reserve, it's very rare I get punished for killing something with Dragonite (and maintaining the option to sacrifice it later) instead of making an immediate sacrifice and set up. In other words, it's extremely unlikely that by not sacrificing Dragonite, I'll lose my only chance to set up during the battle. A couple of relevant examples. Against Walrein, I do what I did on my old Dragonite / Mega Metagross / Suicune team, and semi-sacrifice Dragonite by trying to Dragon Dance twice, then attack. If the Sheer Colds miss, I have a healthy Dragonite at +2 that can rip through most opposition. If either of them hits, no worries, I can freely set up Chansey, and retain the option to switch to and set up Slowbro after the OHKO moves' PP are used up. Against lead Tyrantrum, I just Outrage and OHKO it, rather than sacking to set up Slowbro.

On the subject of sacrifices, however, you are completely correct that it is very important to be aware that even with their massive bulk, switching into certain attacks and eating a crit can be dangerous for Chansey and Slowbro, so when I have any sort of doubt, I attack or set up with Dragonite, since the worst case scenario is a free-switch in and a safe set up. I strongly believe that it's much easier to lose with this team by switching Chansey or Slowbro in too aggressively than by leaving Dragonite in when it should be switched out, and thankfully, this aligns well with the fact that the fastest, easiest battles are those where Dragonite is able to just set-up and sweep.

I've rambled for a bit, but I'm loving the team, so thanks again for introducing me to Chansey and providing helpful comments on my initial spreads and builds!

EDIT: cleaned up some typos
 
Thanks for the suggestions, guys! I've played the team more now, testing out a few changes with respect to Chansey, and I've been very satisfied.

First, as you note, having Chansey outrun Walrein is absolutely, positively essential for this team, and embarrassingly, I assumed that Wailord was faster and that Walrein was already covered. Whoops! Thankfully, I fixed that before Walrein fixed me!

Second, the more I've played, the more I want even more Speed on Chansey. When Chansey outruns its foe, everything is on easy mode. No more tracking damage to predict when the Substitute will break, no worries about a status attack, Leech Seed, or stat dropper slipping through, and no more having to burn through Substitute's PP on moves that will break the substitute if they hit but likely won't hit due to Minimize. Most notably, and expanding on the Substitute PP issue, going first means that a previously set-up Chansey is much more reliable against physical attackers. When I go first, I can merely re-Sub when the Sub is broken, not have to guess when my evasion boosts will fail, and otherwise merrily attack and Soft Boiled. So long as the foe doesn't string together a whole ton of hits in a row, Chansey should win. When I go second against a powerful physical attacker, I'm stuck in a bad situation, since I either have to predict a hit and Sub ahead of time, lest my Substitute be broken and Chansey ends up exposed to a strong physical hit the next turn, or just try to force through damage quickly and hope my Seismic Tosses kill before two hits land in a row. Oftentimes, of course, Seismic Toss will win this race, but against foes that can heal or the like, this is much dicier. And even if I just need to stall out one or two particularly threatening moves, pre-emptive Subing rapidly drains Substitute's PP, which can again invite awkward situations.

Accordingly, I did a bit more breeding, and for the past 100 battles or so, I've been using !!Timid!! Chansey, with a spread of 4 / 0 / 244 / 4 / 4 / 252, for stats of 326 / 17 / 56 (84) / 56 / 126 (189) / 112. For comparison, Bold 86 Speed, 252 Def Chansey has 15 more HP and 9 more (post-Eviolite) Defense.

I've been EXTREMELY impressed with this spread. Basically, the extra HP from a bulkier spread is worth very little to something with such huge HP, especially when I'm already committed to decent Speed investment to beat Walrein, while the 10% loss in Defense is easily outweighed by how much easier a time I have against foes, even physical ones, that Chansey now outruns.

And let me tell you, there are a lot of foes between 86 and 112 Speed. While I obviously won't directly switch a Chansey in on a physical attacker in this range, a previously set up Chansey can stay in and win against tons of them. This isn't a huge issue when things are going well (after all, there's always Slowbro!) but unusual situations, mistakes, sloppy play, bad luck and the like can happen, so I feel much happier having a Chansey that's both easier to play (going first makes things easier even against foes where Chansey wins when slower) and more reliable in handling threats it otherwise might not be able to. Take a scan through the Speed tiers list, and consider how much easier many of those foes are when Chansey outspeeds them. No more risk of Roserade slipping in a Leech Seed or Toxic, no more awkward Substitute spamming games with Articuno2, lest you let up and have it land two Sheer Colds in a row, etc. Honestly, the Speed investment has so impressed me that I'm very tempted to experiment with faster spreads on my old reliable Substitute Suicune.

While I currently believe that Timid Chansey with GG Unit's moveset is the best fit for this team, I also did, for comparison, some experimentation with Timid Blissey and a set of Substitute / Calm Mind / Soft Boiled / Ice Beam.

With the loss of Eviolite, you lose a bunch of Physical bulk, and some Special Bulk compared to Chansey. This is compounded by the loss of Minimize, which removes the ability to even pseudo-boost Chansey's Defense, meaning that you lean much more heavily on Slowbro for handling physical attackers. But you do at least get some reasonable compensation for the sacrifice.

First, you get to use Leftovers. Leftovers recovery makes up most of the initial loss in Special bulk, and makes Substitute games go a bit faster, as you don't need to Soft Boiled as often. Second, your ability to boost your Special Bulk even further is much more reliable than the pseudo-boosting of Minimize. Aura Sphere is no longer as much of an irritant. Third, you are a little faster than Chansey, and so gain the advantages of going first against more things. Fourth, Ice Beam does not make contact, so you avoid Flame Body / Static complications.

Additionally, and likely most importantly, Blissey needs to stall out far fewer things, and Blissey battles tend to go much faster. Blissey's SpA is nothing amazing, but unlike Chansey's, it is usable, and at +6, Blissey's Ice Beam can 2HKO a ton of stuff. This means Blissey can smash through many foes that heal themselves while Chansey is stuck in stall mode. Similarly, nothing is immune to Ice Beam, so Ghost-types (with certain exceptions like Chandelure) no longer doom Blissey to a massive stall-off. This is important because Growl-less Chansey doesn't actually have that many PP available, and lacking Pressure and the PP stalling beauty of Rest, stalling multiple foes can be tough. Even fully set up, Seismic Toss Chansey often has to stall or partially stall multiple foes out, and when a couple Ghost-types appear on a foe's team, this can be irksome. Blissey can also power through Perish Song Mismagius, which Chansey doesn't like at all.

Obviously (and I often use this in my battles) Chansey can frequently conserve its PP for potential future use by stalling out a foe's relevant moves and then switching to Dragonite or Slowbro to set up and start sweeping, so the issue of PP and my dislike of lengthy stalls is more an issue of time/convenience rather than a massive team weakness, but there is definitely value in being able to play faster. Also, in a related note, Chansey's immunity to Ghost-type attacks is a real mixed blessing. Yes, avoiding the risk of Special Defense drops from Shadow Ball is delightful, but sadly, the immunity also slows the stalling process. Neither Dragonite nor Mega Slowbro like taking repeated Shadow Balls, so until a foe uses up Shadow Ball's PP, I have to leave Chansey in to stall. Were Shadow Ball merely not very effective on Chansey, foes would use it up rapidly, letting me switch to Dragonite or Slowbro and set up pretty quickly, but since it's completely ineffective, foes typically wait to use it, and I have to burn a lot more time stalling Ghost-types out. Blissey can often avoid this problem, since it can actually hurt Ghost-types.

Finally, the decent power of +6 Ice Beam also means that previously set-up Blissey still beats a number of Physical attackers by simply 2HKOing them while they break its sub. This all said, I still feel that Chansey is the better and more reliable choice, but if you hate frequent mega stalls, Blissey is indeed quite playable.

A few notes on my lead: Dragonite could quite likely be improved upon (and a Trick-Scarfer lead certainly is tempting), but I appreciate Dragonite's ability to speed battles up and muscle through stuff that can cause complications for Chansey and Slowbro. I certainly am very willing to sacrifice and semi-sacrifice Dragonite against certain foes, but I'm not constantly playing for a sacrifice, since with such great walls on each end of the spectrum in reserve, it's very rare I get punished for killing something with Dragonite (and maintaining the option to sacrifice it later) instead of making an immediate sacrifice and set up. In other words, it's extremely unlikely that by not sacrificing Dragonite, I'll lose my only chance to set up during the battle. A couple of relevant examples. Against Walrein, I do what I did on my old Dragonite / Mega Metagross / Suicune team, and semi-sacrifice Dragonite by trying to Dragon Dance twice, then attack. If the Sheer Colds miss, I have a healthy Dragonite at +2 that can rip through most opposition. If either of them hits, no worries, I can freely set up Chansey, and retain the option to switch to and set up Slowbro after the OHKO moves' PP are used up. Against lead Tyrantrum, I just Outrage and OHKO it, rather than sacking to set up Slowbro.

On the subject of sacrifices, however, you are completely correct that it is very important to be aware that even with their massive bulk, switching into certain attacks and eating a crit can be dangerous for Chansey and Slowbro, so when I have any sort of doubt, I attack or set up with Dragonite, since the worst case scenario is a free-switch in and a safe set up. I strongly believe that it's much easier to lose with this team by switching Chansey or Slowbro in too aggressively than by leaving Dragonite in when it should be switched out, and thankfully, this aligns well with the fact that the fastest, easiest battles are those where Dragonite is able to just set-up and sweep.

I've rambled for a bit, but I'm loving the team, so thanks again for introducing me to Chansey and providing helpful comments on my initial spreads and builds!

EDIT: cleaned up some typos
I think you'd be relying getting a crit within a certain number of turns to not get counterswept by Volcarona with that Chansey set. After it QDs the first two turns, it's sitting at about 50% and each subsequent Ice Beam is doing about 6% net. Also when we're talking Blissey/Chansey, the 9 extra points of Defense will translate to a pretty large percentage difference (which could be unnecessary with MegaBro, but significant nonetheless). As far as the stuff fast Blissey/Chansey now outspeeds, I'm not seeing too many big threats - Barbaracle maybe? Other stuff gets set up on by MegaBro, is weak enough to signify that the 3rd Pokemon isn't a threat and Chansey can just Seismic Toss until it faints or the battle's over, or has Leech Seed, which can be stalled with Soft-Boiled and Regenerator switching (assuming something like Venusaur even lands the three hits necessary to break Chansey's Sub).

My idea of a TrickScarf user would be something like a Lati with Trick/T-Wave/Dragon Pulse/X. I don't really know what set-up MegaBro would lose to other than OHKO users. Maybe Contrary Serperior, maybe Water Absorb Lapras (but that's likely coming out last so you win even if it's 1-on-1), I dunno, but Trick and T-wave could assure that something's getting set up against lots of OHKO leads like Pinsir, Donphan, Articuno, and Landorus while either getting Taunt leads off the field or allowing Slowbro to set up on something like Weavile locked into Ice Punch.
 

NoCheese

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth!"
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I think you'd be relying getting a crit within a certain number of turns to not get counterswept by Volcarona with that Chansey set. After it QDs the first two turns, it's sitting at about 50% and each subsequent Ice Beam is doing about 6% net. Also when we're talking Blissey/Chansey, the 9 extra points of Defense will translate to a pretty large percentage difference (which could be unnecessary with MegaBro, but significant nonetheless). As far as the stuff fast Blissey/Chansey now outspeeds, I'm not seeing too many big threats - Barbaracle maybe? Other stuff gets set up on by MegaBro, is weak enough to signify that the 3rd Pokemon isn't a threat and Chansey can just Seismic Toss until it faints or the battle's over, or has Leech Seed, which can be stalled with Soft-Boiled and Regenerator switching (assuming something like Venusaur even lands the three hits necessary to break Chansey's Sub).

My idea of a TrickScarf user would be something like a Lati with Trick/T-Wave/Dragon Pulse/X. I don't really know what set-up MegaBro would lose to other than OHKO users. Maybe Contrary Serperior, maybe Water Absorb Lapras (but that's likely coming out last so you win even if it's 1-on-1), I dunno, but Trick and T-wave could assure that something's getting set up against lots of OHKO leads like Pinsir, Donphan, Articuno, and Landorus while either getting Taunt leads off the field or allowing Slowbro to set up on something like Weavile locked into Ice Punch.
Point taken on Ice Beam Blissey having issues with Volcarona. I never ran into one during my experimental battles with Blissey subbed in for Chansey, and would probably be forced to aggressively throw Dragonite at it, Flame Body and all. But Chansey is definitely better overall, if slower, so that's what I'm going with.

I'm willing to trust your judgement when it comes to what carefully played Bold 124 Speed EV Chansey beats in the 86-112 Speed zone, but even if well-played Chansey doesn't actually beat many more Pokemon by upping its Speed, the Speed boost absolutely makes things easier and faster, and harder for a sometimes distracted player to screw up. At some point, the easier, lazier play is worth it to me. I've certainly yet to find the 10% less Def and 5% less HP problematic, or even really noticeable, so I'm going to stick with the Timid spread for now. At the very worst, I should have some new data on ways bulk does matter if the reduction eventually leads to my doom. As an aside, since you mention Barbaracle as one of the few possibilities you think Timid Chansey might possibly help the team on, Timid Chansey certainly does beat it now if it previously set up, but MegaBro does the job fine on its own. I just semi-sac Dragonite and dance twice, though once and sweeping is a fine alternative. If I get really lucky and don't die to Stone Edges, I sweep at +2. If (far more likely) Dragonite dies, then I get a free switch to Slowbro, who can then Mega Evolve before it takes a hit, and then laugh at Barbaracle, since Shell Armor makes a critical hit focused set look pretty silly. Did Articuno2 ever bother you during your streak? The AI seems to play it very erratically, but the potential for multiple Sheer Colds in a row from something that otherwise can't hit me very hard makes me feel more comfortable outspeeding it, though I guess if it uses its Sheer Colds aggressively enough, just spamming Substitute and nothing else until all 5 Sheer Colds are gone is a safe option for slower Chansey.

I continue to like your thoughts on a Trick Scarfer, since as you say, the list of things that beat Mega Slowbro once it is set up is quite short. I'm going to stick to Dragonite for now since I'm just very used to playing it, but am quite tempted to give your suggestion a go later on, since it seems very strong.

Thanks again for your advice, even though I'm perhaps a bit obstinate in not always following it! I really do appreciate it.
 

Adamant Zoroark

catchy catchphrase
is a Contributor Alumnus
Posting an ongoing streak of 95. Yeah, I know, it's a cheap Durant team again, but as soon as this team loses, it will be the first team on the records with an NFE Pokemon (I'm not trying to get Zoroark on the rankings right now - that team got fucked at battle 51 by Cobalion3 thanks to Entrainment missing - I'll do that once I'm done with this one. - I'm also an idiot and forgot Blissey is an actual Pokemon that evolves from Chansey)

I call this team Team Durbladence. Yeah, I know, I took syllables from each of the Pokemon's names. Super creative. I think it sounds cool, though. Sounds kind of similar to turbulence.


Durant (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Truant
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
IVs: 31/31/31/xx/31/31
Jolly Nature
- Entrainment
- Aerial Ace
- Iron Head
- X-Scissor

You know what Durant does. It gives the opponent Truant and then your sweeper exploits it to set up fully. It's the same one I've been using on all of my teams, except it has Aerial Ace now to better handle Breloom leads.


Mega Salamence (M) @ Salamencite
Ability: Aerilate (pre-Mega: Intimidate)
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 12 SpD / 236 Spe
IVs: 31/31/31/xx/31/31
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Protect
- Return

Mega Salamence does pretty much exactly what Dragonite did on my old team of Durant / Dragonite / Mega Absol - it's the main sweeper here, except I find it functions way better than Dragonite ever did. A Jolly Mega Salamence Return hits harder than an Adamant Dragonite Outrage, while it also has no immunities, allowing Substitute to be used.


Doublade (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Atk / 244 SpD
IVs: 31/31/31/xx/31/31
Careful Nature
- Swords Dance
- Protect
- Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Sword

Now... This needs a hide-tag-worthy explanation:

Doublade?!?! You mean, the poor man's Aegislash? Well... No. Doublade has its own advantages over Aegislash, which I will now demonstrate with this list:

Advantages:
-No Guard means Doublade will never miss, not even against Bright Powder and Lax Incense (which Sacred Sword doesn't ignore, I'm pretty sure) - in particular, this is relevant against Cresselia3 and Mismagius4 - and even if for whatever reason Doublade has an accuracy drop (which Sacred Sword definitely doesn't ignore)
-Thanks to Eviolite, Doublade has greater physical bulk than Aegislash, which especially helps with taking non-contact physical hits (Earthquake!) and comparable Special bulk (although this requires investment, and you still don't want to be taking super-effective Special hits.) This also means Doublade will deal less damage to itself in confusion.
-No need to worry about Stance Change, which means, even if Shadow Sneak doesn't kill your target, you're not going to get absolutely destroyed by their next attack. This also makes Doublade much more forgiving if you get paralyzed!
-Protect also blocks status moves, while King's Shield does not, potentially making Doublade more viable on Durant teams than Aegislash.
Disadvantages:
-No Guard, which gives Doublade a nice advantage in ignoring Bright Powder, also gives it a crippling disadvantage: It also skips the accuracy check of your opponent's attacks. Will-O-Wisp? Always hitting. Thunder? Sorry buddy, that'll always hit too. But, most importantly, this means that OHKO moves will always hit. Basically, anything with Fissure or Sheer Cold (Doublade is immune to Guillotine and Horn Drill by typing) creams Doublade 100% of the time.
-No King's Shield, which means you are never lowering the Attack of your opponent for using a contact move.
-Doublade is considerably weaker than Aegislash, especially if you invest in Special Defense like I did, which means you will be struggling to even dent your opponent unless you have at least +4 Attack.
-No Leftovers, which means you can wear Doublade down with Hail.

Honestly, I'm using Doublade because I'm more concerned about some stupid shit like Bright Powder ending my streak than I am about Fissure and Sheer Cold ending it. It also seems like Protect is better to have than King's Shield on one of these cookie-cutter Durant + two sweepers teams due to King's Shield not blocking status, which would make Doublade superior to Aegislash thanks to having superior physical bulk. On a goodstuffs team, though, I can't see Doublade being an acceptable alternative to Aegislash (I would never use Mega Salamence / Doublade / Blissey or whatever)


Replays:

Battle #50: 4P5G-WWWW-WW2P-R93G

This is the Chatelaine battle. Salamence sweeps with no boosts!

Battle #79: 9ARW-WWWW-WW2P-R97Q

Doublade gets some action in. I see that the Reuniclus leading was Reuniclus4, so I set up with Doublade instead since Salamence would not be able to fully set up. Doublade action!

Battle #83: THGW-WWWW-WW2P-RCDY

Doublade action again. I didn't want to set up with Salamence due to Sandstorm, so I set up with Doublade instead.

Battle #89: 8NRW-WWWW-WW2P-R98T

Reuniclus3 leading this time. This one has Trick Room, which I don't want to deal with with Mega Salamence - I figure, hey, why not try to use their own Trick Room against them with slow-ass Doublade?

Battle #94: M4SW-WWWW-WW2P-R99V

This simply demonstrates Doublade's absurd physical bulk. I have my doubts as to whether or not that Machamp had Guts because that Earthquake was pitiful, but it lives two Salamence Earthquakes. I ran a damage calc with typical Aegislash just to be safe - +3 Shadow Sneak would not have OHKOed, while Blade forme Aegislash is never surviving an Earthquake. Just an example of Doublade shining where Aegislash fails.


Threats:

Fissure and Sheer Cold - Salamence doesn't really care due to the Substitute, but these always hit Doublade.
Roar and Whirlwind - duh
Breloom4 - this seems to be a typical threat to Durant teams. I haven't faced it yet, but I don't think Salamence would have much trouble setting up against it, even without Entrainment. We'll see how it goes whenever I get matched against this thing. Doublade would probably be a fine option too thanks to immunity to Focus Punch, but has no Substitute to block Leech Seed with.
Fake Out leads - just switch to Doublade immediately. Jynx4 is the most threatening due to Lovely Kiss, but even an unboosted Shadow Sneak 2HKOes it. (Yeah, even from Doublade - Jynx is frail as shit)
Aggron - This really depends on if it's Aggron3 or Aggron4. +6 Mega Salamence Return does 2HKO Aggron4, but not Aggron3, so a switch to Doublade will be necessary to beat Aggron3. It wipes your boosts, but it's preferable to just losing Mega Salamence.
 
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NoCheese

"Jack, you have debauched my sloth!"
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Posting an ongoing streak of 95. Yeah, I know, it's a cheap Durant team again, but as soon as this team loses, it will be the first team on the records with an NFE Pokemon
Cool to see Doublade getting some love. It won't quite be the first team with an NFE Pokemon on the leaderboard, though, as both Aron and Chansey are NFE too. Call_Me_Charlie used Chimchar for 100-something battles on an ongoing triples streak but has since switched to other Pokemon. But regardless, it's nice to see you find success with a Pokemon that has never really been used in the Maison before, and I certainly look forward to seeing the streak grow!
 

Adamant Zoroark

catchy catchphrase
is a Contributor Alumnus
Oh, yeah, Chansey exists.... I actually forgot about Blissey for a second. I'm a derp. (Sorry, sometimes I don't exactly think things through...) Though, I was only thinking about the Singles records... God damn, the Doubles records is full of Aron teams. Impossible to overlook that.

Note to self: stop forgetting Blissey exists
 
I am going to repost this because I finally lost after 174 wins in a row

This is the way I lost and it was simply because of stupid misplays as you will see yourselves:

LREG-WWWW-WW2P-RSLJ

Regardless how much I play rotation, I probobly will never get used to the fact that after rotation, the next turn, my mon will use the move on the top if I spam the A-Button.

Win Nr 164
GFUW-WWWW-WW2P-RSRT
Win Nr 147
6ALG-WWWW-WW2M-96RZ
Win Nr 146
VBSG-WWWW-WW2M-8ZCX
Win Nr 139
QE3W-WWWW-WW2M-8ZYM
Win Nr 131
R7QG-WWWW-WW2M-8ZQ4


Salamence @ Salamencite
Ability: Intimidate -> Aerialate
Nature: Careful
IVs: 31/31/31/31/31/31
EVs: 252 SpD / 252 HP / 4 Atk
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Dragon Dance
- Double-Edge

The Main Attacker on the Team which turn most of the Pokémon into set up fodder. After 2 Dragon Dance I was able to even break through unboosted Metagross with 2 hits.
But usually for annoying Rock and Steel Types there is Earthquake which is a great coverage move with Double-Edge.
Protect has 2 main purposes: To scout centain Pokemon's moveset and to savely receive wishes.

Klefki @ Lightclay
Ability: Prankster
Nature: Bold
IVs: 31/X/31/X/31/31
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SpD
- Foul Play
- Thunder Wave
- Light Screen
- Reflect

Makes sure that Salamence can set up and sweep by setting up dual screens or paralyse specific foes like Venusaur to stop their shenanigans.
Foul Play came once every 11 battles to play by OHKOing things like +4 physical Tentacool.

Sylveon Leftovers
Ability: Pixalate
Nature: Bold
IVs: 31/X/31/31/31/31
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
- Hyper Voice
- Protect
- Heal Bell
- Wish

Wish in combination with Protect from Mence is a save way to recover Mega Mence HP without risking it getting OHKOed.
Heal Bell takes care of Status like Burn that would otherwise ruin Mega Mence's set up.
Pixalate Hyper Voice came really into play against those annoying Substitute Mandibuzz or Scrafty.

Breloom @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
Nature: Jolly
IVs: 31/31/31/X/31/31
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 6 HP
- Spore
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Rock Tomb

Back-Up attacker in case Mega Mence dies even with all the things considered. Takes care of Sturdy Rock Types, puts foes into sleep or revenge kill them with Mach Punch.
Rock Tomb was really useful against the Legendary Birds or Regice, when I was on the fence to switch Mence in.


The things I have the most trouble with
*Taunt*
Crobat and Electrode are usually the offenders in this case and are usually paired with good partners like in Crobat's case with something like Ttar to above getting OHKOed by Double-Edge.

*Swagger*
Really annoying and forcing me to keep wish passing to Mence to avoid 2HKOing itself. Luckily the HP investment came handy.

*Encore*
Not a big deal if Klefki is looked into a centain move or I have dual screens to boost with Mega Mence. It usually is a pain if I get locked into a move with Sylveon or am locked into EQ with Mence while my opponent has immunities on his/her side.

*Trick or Switcheroo*
When Klefki or Sylveon get tricked, I am pretty much relying on Mence and Breloom immediate power or set up oppotunities to win games.

*Walrein*
The 100 % hit ratio of Sheer Cold and Fissure is a pain where I usually have to try playing around by saking something to bring in Breloom savely or get at least some Dragon Dances with Mence in predictate rotations so I can savely OHKO it which is risky also because of Brightpowder.

*Poison or Steel Type Substitute users*
Venusaur is a pain to deal with if it is paired with something like Empoleon which both have Substitute and spam moves like Yawn, Toxin or Leech Seed in combination with Protect.
 
IMG_20150919_123848.png
After 3 days would u quit with this or keep on going???!!!
Would calm mind take up the slack on the couple of points short fall or after 6 CM's would the point drop be too significant?
 
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Point taken on Ice Beam Blissey having issues with Volcarona. I never ran into one during my experimental battles with Blissey subbed in for Chansey, and would probably be forced to aggressively throw Dragonite at it, Flame Body and all. But Chansey is definitely better overall, if slower, so that's what I'm going with.

I'm willing to trust your judgement when it comes to what carefully played Bold 124 Speed EV Chansey beats in the 86-112 Speed zone, but even if well-played Chansey doesn't actually beat many more Pokemon by upping its Speed, the Speed boost absolutely makes things easier and faster, and harder for a sometimes distracted player to screw up. At some point, the easier, lazier play is worth it to me. I've certainly yet to find the 10% less Def and 5% less HP problematic, or even really noticeable, so I'm going to stick with the Timid spread for now. At the very worst, I should have some new data on ways bulk does matter if the reduction eventually leads to my doom. As an aside, since you mention Barbaracle as one of the few possibilities you think Timid Chansey might possibly help the team on, Timid Chansey certainly does beat it now if it previously set up, but MegaBro does the job fine on its own. I just semi-sac Dragonite and dance twice, though once and sweeping is a fine alternative. If I get really lucky and don't die to Stone Edges, I sweep at +2. If (far more likely) Dragonite dies, then I get a free switch to Slowbro, who can then Mega Evolve before it takes a hit, and then laugh at Barbaracle, since Shell Armor makes a critical hit focused set look pretty silly. Did Articuno2 ever bother you during your streak? The AI seems to play it very erratically, but the potential for multiple Sheer Colds in a row from something that otherwise can't hit me very hard makes me feel more comfortable outspeeding it, though I guess if it uses its Sheer Colds aggressively enough, just spamming Substitute and nothing else until all 5 Sheer Colds are gone is a safe option for slower Chansey.

I continue to like your thoughts on a Trick Scarfer, since as you say, the list of things that beat Mega Slowbro once it is set up is quite short. I'm going to stick to Dragonite for now since I'm just very used to playing it, but am quite tempted to give your suggestion a go later on, since it seems very strong.

Thanks again for your advice, even though I'm perhaps a bit obstinate in not always following it! I really do appreciate it.
I'd stay with Dragonite for now as well because the other set would have to be very specific and I have no experience with Slowbro (don't even know if I have picked up the Slowbronite in my game haha). For example, I assume Tyrantrum would be something you'd want to KO immediately rather than switch Slowbro in (hence Dragon Pulse), but probably every other physical attacker that can be Thunder Waved on the first turn would allow Slowbro to set up - probably a lot of special attackers too, especially when you can bring in Chansey to have stuff burn itself on the Draco Meteor clones. I keep coming back to Calm Mind as the 4th move where you could ultimately get the lead locked into a nonthreatening attack, CM with Latias on the Struggle turns, and trick the Scarf back right before it faints. Maybe Psychic if it KOs status Orb Fighting types that may Protect the first turn and not allow Slowbro to set up.

I don't think I even faced a lead Articuno2 when leading with Salamence - if I did, it was dumb and used Ice Beam on Aegislash in a way that prevented me from distinguishing the set. I did face a lead Cryogonal3 within one of the first 50 battles that froze Aegislash on the switch with Blizzard. Aegis thawed out the next turn and used King's Shield to block Sheer Cold and then 2HKOed with Shadow Sneak while Cryogonal used Blizzard. With Kangaskhan leading, Articuno only KOed once or twice and it used Sheer Cold often enough for Gliscor to stall it out before going to Chansey. But all the times Articuno2 has come out 2nd against Chansey, spamming Sub has worked; even if you are left without one, Articuno is extremely likely to try to Mind Reader first. Side note: it's obviously not something to rely on, but I wouldn't be surprised to see OHKO users try other moves first against set-up MegaBro.

When I mentioned Barbaracle, I was thinking in terms of it coming out 2nd against Chansey since if Chansey's already set up it's probably preferable to try to keep it in in the event the 3rd Pokemon's a OHKO user, which would be slightly easier if Chansey's faster. With a slower Chansey, I was fine with spamming Sub until it was out of Cross Chop and then seeing what I could do with Seismic Toss.
 
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