VGC 2015 Viability Rankings - Mark 2

[tofucocoa]

OK, so here's a few that I remember:

Gardevoir-Mega A -> A+ : Souped up Sylveon, can provide its own Speed control, has passable bulk (its other stats are high enough to warrant dumping almost everything in Def), and has good synergy with the top dog, landog, especially with Telepathy pre-mega.
Rotom-W A+ -> A : Rotom-W isn't as good as it was, but it's still amazing glue and has options outside of WOW/Tbolt/Hydro/protect
Clefairy A+ -> A : Next to no recovery, relies on helping hand for pressure, one dimentional (but good) support
Milotic B+ -> A : It's a win condition if your opponent feeds it, and landorus-t is on like every team
Gengar A -> A- : not as good as it was, but still good against kang, anti-lead stuff too
Gengar-Mega A- -> A : Amazing/nigh-unstoppable if it has a good team (whimsicott) and the trap gets set. Don't use offensive mega gar pls
Metagross-Mega A -> B : It doesn't have good moves and its typing is 'meh'
Terrakion A- -> B+ : hard walled by Aegislash, extreme difficulty with genies, isn't as strong as you'd like without LO, is one-dimentional... but it can ohko zard and kang, i guess
Arcanine/Bisharp/Venusaur-Mega/Suicune/Rotom-H A -> A- : don't really fit in with A rank anymore
Whimsicott B- -> B : Priority Encore is everything that's wrong with this game
Talonflame somewhere -> B- : If Tornadus had its Gem and Defiant, nobody would use it. Except maybe to Flare Blitz Aegislash and poke stuff with Brave Bird... Seriously, this thing has offenses on par with Cresselia.

 

[Synral]

The only point I'd argue is that Terrakion is one of the better checks to Thundurus, cause it has STAB Rock Slide, and Quick Guard blocks Prankster shit. Lum Berry lets you eat twave. It has an awful time with Landorus, Aegis, and most waters, so B+ suits it

 

[Ksh13]

Okay, I agree on almost everything, barring Mega Metagross (although I won't try to start an argument about that right now, since it seems like I won't really get anywhere since I'm apparently alone on this point).

There is however something I've been thinking about. Sylveon. I'm not really sure if I feel comfortable with having it in A+. I don't have the time right now to write a huge essay about why Sylveon is good but not that good, but it kind of faces the same problems as Mawile, often standing in a possision where it has to take two hits to get of one of its own. I can't argue with its damage output, it is crazy, but atm I'd rather pick Garde in a team, because the speed is way better and Psychic STAB. Physical bulk on Sylveon's side isn't anything amazing, same with Garde on that end though. Sylveon did see some quality usage at US nats, but I don't really feel like it was anything amazing at worlds. The meta is also bulkier as a whole so Sylveon won't deal as much damage as it did before to stuff like Kangaskhan, since many of them run with bulk nowadays. Don't feel like going too much into detail, but I feel like the fall of the pixifairy must come.

 

[Steven Stone]

Okay, I agree on almost everything, barring Mega Metagross (although I won't try to start an argument about that right now, since it seems like I won't really get anywhere since I'm apparently alone on this point).

There is however something I've been thinking about. Sylveon. I'm not really sure if I feel comfortable with having it in A+. I don't have the time right now to write a huge essay about why Sylveon is good but not that good, but it kind of faces the same problems as Mawile, often standing in a possision where it has to take two hits to get of one of its own. I can't argue with its damage output, it is crazy, but atm I'd rather pick Garde in a team, because the speed is way better and Psychic STAB. Physical bulk on Sylveon's side isn't anything amazing, same with Garde on that end though. Sylveon did see some quality usage at US nats, but I don't really feel like it was anything amazing at worlds. The meta is also bulkier as a whole so Sylveon won't deal as much damage as it did before to stuff like Kangaskhan, since many of them run with bulk nowadays. Don't feel like going too much into detail, but I feel like the fall of the pixifairy must come.

Yeah, Sylveon should drop now to A or even A- (not lower 'cause this thing is really strong anyways). Remember the one argument i had in favour of Sylveon?:

For Sylveon...i completely disagree with your opinion. Needing mons to check/counter it is actually more of a a motive to raise a mon rather than lowering it down. Otherwise Kangaskhan/Landorus-T will decrease because every team runs a check/counter for it. Having a mon on your team for Sylveon means it exerts enough offensive presence to destroy entire teams with Specs Hyper Voice if not prepared for it. Completely worth A+ rank.

Now, why has this changed? One strong Pokemon in this meta, Gardevoir, has catched the eye on many due to its speed, decent bulk and destructive power. Yeah, and Gardevoir not only is faster than Sylveon, it has a secondary STAB that's useful, and a wide movepool to support its partners. Sylveon, on the other hand, what does it have? It has the bulk to withstand more attacks than Gardevoir and the ability to set up Calm Mind, which only a few Pokemon like Cresselia can do. But to be honest, this isn't enough to justify Sylveon being in par with Amoonguss, Aegislash and the Pokemon that is supposed to outclass it, Gardevoir. Gardevoir exerts the exact same pressure Sylveon did, but it can hit hard and IT ISN'T WALLED BY AMOONGUSS.

PS: Metagross could potentially raise to B+. It checks Mega Voir and many fighting types, not to mention speed tier. But people, please, don't run Ice Punch on the 3rd slot unless you really have to...

 

[Mishimono]

Hey Gastrodon and Porygon2 got bumped up. I always liked Gastrodon's nice coverage and bulk and Porygon2 is a pretty bulky Trick Room setter with Recovery.

 

[Mishimono]

I would like to nominate my boy Dewgong for D,C- I know I may be biased here I actually have barely used him as I suck at PerishTrap but I feel he should get a mention. He gets Fake Out, Encore, Perish Trap, Protect alongside decent defenses. I say he fits the description as he can be outclassed by Politoed but has a secondary typing along with Disable plus no rain. However he is super niche and should not be used outside of PerishTrap.

 

[Yugi]

I agree with mishimono but i dont think it should anywhere more than D just because it only fits on 1 playstyle and that is perish trap.It does really well as a support mon too but to handle the big boys it needs alot more defenses.

 

[nightwolf]

Its defenses are ok but get ruined/go to waste by the fact it loses 2 resistances (fire and steel) and gain 2 lovely weaknesses in fighting and rock (two offensive typings that are extremely common). It fits better in D than C- imo

 

[HappyNap]

+I'd like to nominate Cofagrigus to C, C- or D; It got amazing physical bulk, coupled with the fact that it is immune to fake out, alowing it to work as a trick room setter. Nasty plot raises its sp. attack to high lvls, and allows it to sweep or heavely dent mons in trick room,. It got an okay amount of coverage (Ghost, grass, dark, psy, and with warying effect and ofc. hidden power variants), likewise okay amount of setup moves, and plenty of support options, not to mention its passive, mummy, can really hurt your opponent. It *is* kind of a niche mon, and there are other mons who can somewhat do what it does, but I found it to be a reliable trick room setter, a good denter and a fair support mon.

I would also say that Reuniclus is worthy of C or even C+; it is amazingly strong under trick room with a life orb, needing no setup, and, like Cofagrigus, have a fair amount of coverage options. I didn't see any other mons on the ranking list as strong stab psy mons, bar mega gard who you need to use your mega for, or maybe Sylveon, who is strong but usually gets locked into one move. Reu is fairly squishy, unless you EV for it, so it wouldn't go over C+ in ranking, but it deserves a place at least a little higher

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Its defenses are ok but get ruined/go to waste by the fact it loses 2 resistances (fire and steel) and gain 2 lovely weaknesses in fighting and rock (two offensive typings that are extremely common). It fits better in D than C- imo

It still resists Fire; Thick Fat.

 

[rhydonphilip]

Nominating Rhydon(ignore how my pic/name suggests i love the poke this post will be objective and not just oh it should be S cause i used it and stuff!!!)

for C Mid,
It's niche as all of us is small but still capable of doing things outside of this,
It compleatly shut's down any electric types exept rotom-W/M
Acces to amazing offencive cover like it's evolution but more in a defencive way rater then WP + solid rock offence, by having amazing natural defences to wall that what it resists and taking less then 50% from anything that isn't 4x super against it.
There were few people who used it used it in the champion chips with only 1 bringing it to worlds again for it's amazing syn with charizard-Y, however it can still especialy in the current meta support other team members by being a treatning drain from any electric attacks making it a solid team mate for water,fire, grass cores.
Like it's evolution it has acces to single aswell as double target damaging STAB moves being the rare drillrun, EQ, Stone Edge and RockSlide + base 130 attack what needs little invest to get needed 2HKO's by example only needing 156+ nature in attack the remaining can just be pushed into HP and sp def to survive some suprisingly powerfull hit's even being 4x super but remaining with rater useless HP afterwards....

 

[Steven Stone]

Rhydon is actually a pretty nice support Pokemon that can sponge a lot ot things. C rank could be fine for it, but i wouldn't mind it being a little bit lower. Rhydon's EdgeQuake coverage has a pretty useful purpose, while being able to switch into moves like Thunderbolt (lol Lightning Rod Rhydon is actually useful) or the so common fire type moves. However, it's typing bugs me a bit. For an offensive Pokemon, Ground/Rock is an amazing combination of STABs due to the legendary EdgeQuake coverage, but when it comes to defensive, it's just not a good idea. Like, you're weak to Water, Fighting, Steel, Grass, Ice and Ground, and all of these types have strong representation in the VGC metagame, like Aegislash for Steel; Milotic for Water; Amoonguss for Grass; Terrakion, Scrafty, and Conkeldurr for Fighting, any bulky water that isn't called Rotom-W for ice, and Landorus-T for Ground. Having bad matchups against these common Pokemon makes its niche not as good as it should be, and in the end of the day, you'll probably end up using Rhyperior. It's just my opinion about how i felt Rhydon during the 1-2 days i played with it.

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Rhydon is actually a pretty nice support Pokemon that can sponge a lot ot things. C rank could be fine for it, but i wouldn't mind it being a little bit lower. Rhydon's EdgeQuake coverage has a pretty useful purpose, while being able to switch into moves like Thunderbolt (lol Lightning Rod Rhydon is actually useful) or the so common fire type moves. However, it's typing bugs me a bit. For an offensive Pokemon, Ground/Rock is an amazing combination of STABs due to the legendary EdgeQuake coverage, but when it comes to defensive, it's just not a good idea. Like, you're weak to Water, Fighting, Steel, Grass, Ice and Ground, and all of these types have strong representation in the VGC metagame, like Aegislash for Steel; Milotic for Water; Amoonguss for Grass; Terrakion, Scrafty, and Conkeldurr for Fighting, any bulky water that isn't called Rotom-W for ice, and Landorus-T for Ground. Having bad matchups against these common Pokemon makes its niche not as good as it should be, and in the end of the day, you'll probably end up using Rhyperior. It's just my opinion about how i felt Rhydon during the 1-2 days i played with it.

Synergy with Char-Y is important when talking about Rhydon, but putting that aside for a moment:

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 116-140 (64.4 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Rhydon Drill Run vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 186-222 (111.3 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 174-206 (104.1 - 123.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yes. A Bashful, completely untrained Rhydon beats Terrakion. Add things like natures and EVs into the equation and it's just a bother at best.

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 36 HP / 12 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 84-102 (45.4 - 55.1%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO
204+ Atk Rhydon Drill Run vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 76-91 (36 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Yes, Conk wins.

252+ Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs. 36 HP / 12 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 66-78 (35.6 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 204+ Atk Rhydon Drill Run vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Scrafty: 43-52 (25.1 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Scrafty seriously needs 3 turns to kill it, assuming Rhydon doesn't bother to Protect. 1v1, sure, it wins, if Rhydon's partner does absolutely nothing for 3+ turns.

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 138-164 (74.5 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
204+ Atk Rhydon Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 102-122 (61 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
204+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 96-114 (57.4 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The calcs suggest you lose. However, a -Speed natured Rhydon is slower than Aegislash, so you'll be hitting it in Blade form (aside from TR, but you just outrun and 2HKO it anyway) for a solid OHKO.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Iron Head vs. 36 HP / 12 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 114-134 (61.6 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
204+ Atk Rhydon Drill Run vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 102-122 (65.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
They can both make a Sub and survive a hit.

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 150-176 (83.3 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Highest attack stat in the game + SE STAB = still not enough to kill a Bashful, untrained Rhydon.

252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 56-68 (30.2 - 36.7%) -- 51.2% chance to 3HKO
204+ Atk Rhydon Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 134-162 (86.4 - 104.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Bulky Thundy doesn't even kinda sorta budge the beast.

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 12 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 84-102 (45.4 - 55.1%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO
-1 204+ Atk Rhydon Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 136-160 (82.4 - 96.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Does Landog really want to lose 82% min HP to MAYBE 2HKO Rhydon under ideal circumstances? If you switch in after the Intimidate, Landog can't do a damn thing.

252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 36 HP / 12 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 156-184 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4x SE STAB off of 125 base Attack, still not enough.

0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 124-148 (67 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
204+ Atk Rhydon Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 82-98 (37.1 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Yeah, even a STAB'd 4x SE hit isn't enough for Amoonguss to OHKO something with base 45 Sp. Def. Rhydon obviously loses in any situation.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 147-174 (79.4 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 143-172 (77.2 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 91-108 (49.1 - 58.3%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
100 SpA Suicune Scald vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 156-184 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even on the Special side, Rhydon is hard to OHKO without a Water/Grass move.

Water/Grass moves with STAB (or CHar-Y's Solarbeam) will obviously maim you assuming the user doesn't offensively suck like the above calcs.

C might be too high for it in my opinion maybe C- might be better. The only job it seems to really want to do is stop thundurus/zapdos from doing their thing against teams that are weak to them. Its HP and Defense stats are really good but its sp defense is terrible, which is not a good thing when you're weak to water, grass, and ice. If that wasn't bad enough, it also is weak a lot of common offensive typings such as; fighting, steel, ground, water, etc. and only really threatens steel types in return with its stab ground type moves. Also, your claim that it "takes less than 50% from anything that isn't 4x super effective against" is false.

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 116-140 (54.7 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Landorus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 94-112 (44.3 - 52.8%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 128-152 (60.3 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I only used moves that have only 2x damage against it but you get my point, its not as bulky as you claim it to be and it actually needs eviolite to survive the 2hko on superpower.

252+ Atk Landorus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rhydon: 138-164 (65 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rhydon: 92-110 (43.3 - 51.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

Disclaimer: I really don't know what you'd run on a rhydon so I went with a 252/4/252 spread going pure defense and went with a 252 aegislash, 0 EVs still does over 50% damage to that same build.

And while it does give M-Khan issues as well as a decent number of other megas that would give a charizard issues, landorus and aegislash are both common teammates to it.

Your EQ calcs are assuming Singles, not doubles; I'm not trying to be an ass, I made the same mistake like 4 times in this post alone. :P
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 116-140 (54.7 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (singles)
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 86-104 (40.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Doubles)

tl;dr even in bad matchups Rhydon's a total dick to kill and it can tear a good chunk out of a lot of stuff.
But, no recovery + slow so it can be torn apart over 2-3 turns and it's very vulnerable to Intimidate and WoW. But it's still damn good support againt a lot of stuff; I just posted the stuff its disadvantaged against, nevermind the stuff like Mega Mence that's just fucked. C is fine.

 

[Steven Stone]

Scrafty seriously needs 3 turns to kill it, assuming Rhydon doesn't bother to Protect. 1v1, sure, it wins, if Rhydon's partner does absolutely nothing for 3+ turns.

Not quite. Any smart player will proceed to Knock Off the Eviolite before attacking directly, so let's see...

252+ Atk Scrafty Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 12 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 42-49 (22.7 - 26.4%) -- 18.6% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs. 36 HP / 12 Def Rhydon: 96-114 (51.8 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's actually pretty disgusting bulk to be fair... But knocking off the Eviolite already puts Rhydon on a disadvantage.

Lando-T's case is a pretty special one. Let's start with the obvious "Lando-T wins the 1v1 ezpz" but that's pretty much versus any Ground type that isn't a special attacker. But anyway, wanna note down that LO Landorus-T IS a thing, so...

252 Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 12 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 101-120 (54.5 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Superpower vs. 36 HP / 12 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 109-130 (58.9 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Zard Y's synergy IS amazing for Rhydon, not gonna lie. Like, look at this:

60 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Rhydon in Sun: 112-136 (60.5 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That did WAY more than what i expected... ehh, let's see...
100 SpA Milotic Scald vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Rhydon in Sun: 84-100 (45.4 - 54%) -- 18.8% chance to 2HKO
Nah, we livin'. Although if we add Competitive to the formula, it gets tough.

But, in general, anything with enough Special Attack can break through it.
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 179-213 (96.7 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Yeah, remember that's a thing.

Ok, in conclusion, i'm still missing a reason besides the Thundy hate to use Rhydon. I'm still fine with it in C tho, it looks amazing on paper. maybe i should look for players that use it a lot.

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Not quite. Any smart player will proceed to Knock Off the Eviolite before attacking directly, so let's see...

252+ Atk Scrafty Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 12 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 42-49 (22.7 - 26.4%) -- 18.6% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs. 36 HP / 12 Def Rhydon: 96-114 (51.8 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's actually pretty disgusting bulk to be fair... But knocking off the Eviolite already puts Rhydon on a disadvantage.

Lando-T's case is a pretty special one. Let's start with the obvious "Lando-T wins the 1v1 ezpz" but that's pretty much versus any Ground type that isn't a special attacker. But anyway, wanna note down that LO Landorus-T IS a thing, so...

252 Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 12 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 101-120 (54.5 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Superpower vs. 36 HP / 12 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 109-130 (58.9 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Zard Y's synergy IS amazing for Rhydon, not gonna lie. Like, look at this:

60 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Rhydon in Sun: 112-136 (60.5 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That did WAY more than what i expected... ehh, let's see...
100 SpA Milotic Scald vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Rhydon in Sun: 84-100 (45.4 - 54%) -- 18.8% chance to 2HKO
Nah, we livin'. Although if we add Competitive to the formula, it gets tough.

But, in general, anything with enough Special Attack can break through it.
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 179-213 (96.7 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Yeah, remember that's a thing.

Ok, in conclusion, i'm still missing a reason besides the Thundy hate to use Rhydon. I'm still fine with it in C tho, it looks amazing on paper. maybe i should look for players that use it a lot.

Knock Off + 2 Drain Punches still equals 3 turns of using Drain Punch to KO with Scrafty, assuming no Protect, so it's really the same thing :P
Rhydon does not want to eat a Knock Off, ever, though. Landog also is the same story; can cripple with Knock Off -> EQ but still eats that Ice Punch.

LO on Aegislash / Landog is a thing, yes, but Scarf / AV Landorus and Leftovers / WP Aegislash don't handle it quite as well; you are right though, I don't argue that lol.

The funny thing with Rotom-W in Sun is you can revenge KO it with Metal Burst - I did it a lot in '14, it was amazing until Rotom missed. Sun prevents common waters from KOing it outright, plus Char-Y's potential Solarbeam support. But Zard+Rhydon is a Cores deal, I tried just focusing on Rhydon as a standalone.

The main thing between Rhydon and Rhyperior is Protect and Sp. Def.
WP + Solid Rock Rhyperior has terribad Sp. def, and succumbs to more than a few neutral hits that Rhydon can tank (like Draco Meteor):

252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Rhyperior: 199-235 (102 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 147-174 (79.4 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

AV Rhyperior is just as bulky as Rhydon on SE physical hits, with more Atk, but takes Special hits a lot better:

252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 179-213 (96.7 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 183-218 (93.8 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (Yes, Solid Rock makes it bulkier than Rhydon even without AV)
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Solid Rock Rhyperior: 123-146 (63 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But all is not sunshine and rainbows.
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 201-240 (103 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO

60 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Rhydon in Sun: 112-136 (60.5 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
60 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 36 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Solid Rock Rhyperior in Sun: 75-93 (38.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

However, Rhydon could Protect against the hit, allowing all the great things that Protect can do in doubles; AV Rhyperior does not have this option.

So to put it bluntly, Rhydon trades a bit of Atk for better bulk (especially against neutral/resisted physical hits) and Protect simultaneously, Rhyperior is pretty much forced to cope with either bad Sp. def or AV+no Protect, but in exchange gets better Atk and can actually use an item like LO, WP, or a Lum Berry idk. It's not *just* for Thundy hate, though I admit that I do run a Raichu on my team solely for that purpose so I make no claim to an unbiased opinion. lol.
It gets the bulk, Lightningrod, and Protect, all at the same time; Rhyperior simply cannot do all 3 at once. Rhyperior can run LO and say "eh, fuck it" to its Sp. Def and Lightningrod and tear shit up or go with AV + Solid Rock to just fucking laugh at almost everything in ways Rhydon cannot do.

This is really making me want to go back to my old VGC14 core. And don't get me wrong, I love Rhydon and Rhyperior quite equally, each one just has its own faults and advantages so we're kinda just taking potshots at which combination of minor traits is better. I just prefer Rhydon + Char-Y because I hate Thundy more than Aegislash :P

 

[rhydonphilip]

C might be too high for it in my opinion maybe C- might be better. The only job it seems to really want to do is stop thundurus/zapdos from doing their thing against teams that are weak to them. Its HP and Defense stats are really good but its sp defense is terrible, which is not a good thing when you're weak to water, grass, and ice. If that wasn't bad enough, it also is weak a lot of common offensive typings such as; fighting, steel, ground, water, etc. and only really threatens steel types in return with its stab ground type moves. Also, your claim that it "takes less than 50% from anything that isn't 4x super effective against" is false.

252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 116-140 (54.7 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Landorus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 94-112 (44.3 - 52.8%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 128-152 (60.3 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I only used moves that have only 2x damage against it but you get my point, its not as bulky as you claim it to be and it actually needs eviolite to survive the 2hko on superpower.

252+ Atk Landorus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rhydon: 138-164 (65 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rhydon: 92-110 (43.3 - 51.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO

Disclaimer: I really don't know what you'd run on a rhydon so I went with a 252/4/252 spread going pure defense and went with a 252 aegislash, 0 EVs still does over 50% damage to that same build.

And while it does give M-Khan issues as well as a decent number of other megas that would give a charizard issues, landorus and aegislash are both common teammates to it.

dude:
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 86-104 (40.5 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
set calcs to doubles next time

yes that makes a hugh difference knowing rhydon can 2HKO even at -1 attack with ice punch and little invest. Even AV lando can't cripple it cause knock + no evio EQ doesn't kill but it does leave it in range for any attack to finish it off + low speed doesn't help with that.
I like how many people already put allot of arguments and counter arguments, basicaly yes it's syn is mostly to be paired with charizard-Y meaning most of it's weaknesses are already covered. But my argument actualy was to have some use outside of that core aswell (small but notable enough knowing it compleatly blocks any electric type bar Rotom's.

Rhydon doesn't have a proper standert set but with some invest it can properly live 2 of all 2x super physical moves*(note to self) without losing offencive pressure again needing only some offence (example 156+ nature). (mostly aiming at the post of ProjectTitan313 who did an amazing job calcing some of the most important pokes in the meta, what i should have done in the first place and sorry for that ;/)

 

[tofucocoa]

rhydon is already C- tier

e: Oops, didn't read the above posts thoroughly enough. But it'll probably stay that way because of how easily its weaknesses undermine its defenses. Rhyperior probably wasn't worth the hype, either.

 

[Steven Stone]

All that discussion for nothing... Could we at least raise it to C so our efforts aren't meaningless?

 

[Yugi]

Hey guys today/night i want to bring a discussion on volcarona.Volcarona needs to be more than B.It is becoming like a staple to many teams and it can beat teams with the right support.While yes it is 4x weak to RS it is one of the best offensive/supportive mons in the game.It can run offensive with QD or run defensive with RP.It is weak to the likes of rock types which to be honest with the decreased popularity of terrakion rock types are unexistent.Sure many pokemon carry RS such as Lando-T but volcarona can live them.What i personally like about volcarona is that it can beat other RPers such as Amoonguss.It has giga drain for the likes of rotom-wash/azumarill it has one of the strongest bug type moves in VGC,and it has a useful ability in flame body which cripples kangaskhan to a very big extent.Stuff like heatran hurt it but looking at the B group i think volcarona is way way better.B+ what i think would be more fitting.

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Hey guys today/night i want to bring a discussion on volcarona.Volcarona needs to be more than B.It is becoming like a staple to many teams and it can beat teams with the right support.While yes it is 4x weak to RS it is one of the best offensive/supportive mons in the game.It can run offensive with QD or run defensive with RP.It is weak to the likes of rock types which to be honest with the decreased popularity of terrakion rock types are unexistent.Sure many pokemon carry RS such as Lando-T but volcarona can live them.What i personally like about volcarona is that it can beat other RPers such as Amoonguss.It has giga drain for the likes of rotom-wash/azumarill it has one of the strongest bug type moves in VGC,and it has a useful ability in flame body which cripples kangaskhan to a very big extent.Stuff like heatran hurt it but looking at the B group i think volcarona is way way better.B+ what i think would be more fitting.

Volcarona is awesome, don't get me wrong, it was the literal shining star of my team for BW2, and I still use a variety of them today.
Rock Slide is a bitch, but with Intimidate and a Charti Berry it can live damn near anything. It murders every other Rage Powder mon in the game, along with most Follow Me users as well, and just with Rage Powder + Tailwind it offers a niche that only Togekiss really compares to. Problem is, setup is hard in VGC - QD is horrifying in Singles, but in Doubles you pretty much require Fake Out or redircetion to set up, and Volc has bad synergy with other redirectors.
Luckily it can hit hard without QD at all, and Special bulk / Speed are solid. Heat Wave, Overheat, Fire Blast, and Fiery Dance (imo a very underrated move) all have niches, and yes, its Bug Buzz is the best (Special) Bug move in the game; Escavalier and Mega Heracross are the only stronger Bug STABs (Scizor is damn close, but 135 Sp. Atk > 130 Atk).
Anyway, Volcarona's eternal curse is that 65 Def that really holds it back. Even with Flame Body, WoW, and Rocky Helmet as deterrents and Roost/Morning Sun to heal, things like EQ, Psyshock, Rock Slide, Talonflame, and any decently powerful physical attack puts it in KO range for a lot of stuff if it even survives. It's also demolished by opposing Fire types like Char-Y, Heatran, Arcanine, Darmanitan, Entei, Blaziken, etc

It offers a lot of flexibility, but even as a supporter, requires support. imo B is fine. It offers about as much support and usefulness as (non-mega) Gyarados, and requires about the same amount of support.
I love the damn thing but I'm iffy on bumping it up to Virizion, Togekiss, and Excadrill. Wouldn't be opposed to it but I think it's fine where it is :P

 

[Steven Stone]

Nominating Swampert to B rank. Yeah, B rank. Wait, i forgot... (gives megastone). I'd like to nominate Mega Swampert to B. Some of you might be surprised by this nomination. In fact, i was pretty surprised myself by this nomination. Well, my reasons are:

1: Its good performance at tournaments recently have caught the eye of many players, even creating the beloved Manual Rain with Rain Dance Thundurus, one of the hardest stops to Charizard Y.
2. Its coverage, typing, and base stats makes it a huge antimeta call, in a metagame where Landorus-T and Thundurus are prevalent. Not to mention, but CHALK has literally no Swampert switch ins besides Amoonguss. TR setters also fear getting flinched by waterfall, and having Thundurus as partner makes Swampy fears TR less.
3. The most important one: YOU MUST PREPARE FOR THIS. Rain in general is something you should prepare for, but Swampy has almost unresisted coverage, meaning that you can start from a Swampert+Thundurus core and then build with whatever you feel like adding. Requires little support to success.

Now, not like everything is rainbows:

Swampert has a 4x weakness to grass. Grass isn't an offensive coverage that is represented by many Pokemon, but Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur and Ludicolo do give swampy a headache.
It's a physical attacker, so Intimidate and Will-O-Wisp are annoying for swampert. Intimidate isn't that big of a deal given how the most common Intimidate users are weak to Ice Punch, but Will-O-Wisp Rotom-W is annoying.
Finally, it kind relies on the 5 rain turns to be a speedy threat. Yeah, it's still fairly bulky, but it has that Blaziken / Venusaur syndrome where you have to protect so the next turn you can start abusing your speed.

 

[tofucocoa]

Pert does not require a lot of support, but it is still a pain to build around because of its huge Amoonguss/Intimidate/Grass in general/Bulky water weaknesses. And, there hasn't been overwhelming success with it yet. It does have a good matchup with CHALK... as long as they don't have Amoonguss, because Intimidate nuters it pretty quickly when it's not hitting for x4 weaknesses. Landorus-T is OK with losing to pert in the rain as long as it can get Intimidates off.

Volcarona on the other hand is being explored to some great success. It's sort of like a mini Zardy but now you can run Kangaskhan next to it (and kang is an awesome partner to Zardy in multi battles, heh). It's super versatile, dissuades Kang from hitting it despite the low Defense, matches up well against the two biggest pains in the ass in Aegislash, Amoonguss, and Cresselia, and helps against Gardevoir+Amoonguss even if it doesn't completely eat it alive like Zardy does. I'd say it's (or, was) a better meta call than Charizard in Fall Regionals. I do want to see more discussion on it, but I am very much considering moving it up.

 

[Steven Stone]

Pert does not require a lot of support, but it is still a pain to build around because of its huge Amoonguss/Intimidate/Grass in general/Bulky water weaknesses. And, there hasn't been overwhelming success with it yet. It does have a good matchup with CHALK... as long as they don't have Amoonguss, because Intimidate nuters it pretty quickly when it's not hitting for x4 weaknesses. Landorus-T is OK with losing to pert in the rain as long as it can get Intimidates off.

Yeah... But Mega Swampert, unlike the current C ranked mons, is something you'd prepare for. I don't see my teams being "Aerodactyl weak". Maybe B- could fit it better

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Pert does not require a lot of support, but it is still a pain to build around because of its huge Amoonguss/Intimidate/Grass in general/Bulky water weaknesses. And, there hasn't been overwhelming success with it yet. It does have a good matchup with CHALK... as long as they don't have Amoonguss, because Intimidate nuters it pretty quickly when it's not hitting for x4 weaknesses. Landorus-T is OK with losing to pert in the rain as long as it can get Intimidates off.

Volcarona on the other hand is being explored to some great success. It's sort of like a mini Zardy but now you can run Kangaskhan next to it (and kang is an awesome partner to Zardy in multi battles, heh). It's super versatile, dissuades Kang from hitting it despite the low Defense, matches up well against the two biggest pains in the ass in Aegislash, Amoonguss, and Cresselia, and helps against Gardevoir+Amoonguss even if it doesn't completely eat it alive like Zardy does. I'd say it's (or, was) a better meta call than Charizard in Fall Regionals. I do want to see more discussion on it, but I am very much considering moving it up.

Amoonguss/Grass types in general: 7 types resist Grass. Grass is weak to Ice, Fire, Flying, Poison, and Bug. Grass/Poison, trade Bug and Poison for Psychic. Really not hard to cover, at all. Even against Rain-protected Grass/Poison, you still have Flying/Psychic/Ice (except mega Venu). Rain Volc / Moltres / Talonflame does exist.
Intimidate: I think Landog cancer has taught us how to handle intimidate by now.
Bulky Waters: Thundurus-I and -T / Ludicolo / Zapdos / Ferrothorn / Amoonguss / Virizion.

If I didn't run Mega Venusuar + LO Swampy I'd fucking dread Mega Swampy+Thundy. Someone ought to put that in the cores thread btw.

Volc, I've said more or less my piece on it, comparing it to Char-Y is apt though.
I think I'm the only one 'opposed' to raising it and I'm not opposed to raising it. lol.

Yeah... But Mega Swampert, unlike the current C ranked mons, is something you'd prepare for. I don't see my teams being "Aerodactyl weak". Maybe B- could fit it better

I've totally said "I am fucked by Aerodactyl / Mega Aerodactyl" a few times actually. :P

 

[Yugi]

I totally agree with the mega swampert move.I think it is a great mon and ive been exploring it for the past week or so and i have found great success with it.Lets be honest more than B it shouldnt be but i think around that it would be great.It takes lives with his STAB rain-boosted Waterfall and it is a great mon in general.Allthough if i had to choose beetwen normal or mega pert i would probs choose normal but i think that this mon is a very antimeta and it is the only rain sweeper that can not be paralyzed which is something to take in account.(unless we talkin about dat glare which aint a big impact in this metagame).It can beat lando 1v1 thundurus 1v1 heatran 1v1 gardevoir only while standing on rain it can beat mence 1v1 if carrying ice punch and so on.Mpert is only afraid of amoonguss and megasaur thats basically only it.