Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings (Under Construction)

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jake

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D-rank also serves as an indicator to new players that some of their favorite Pokemon aren't necessarily considered "great" or "good" or even "below average", but are not outright abysmal, Beautifly-tier Pokemon. You are correct in that it is only marginally useful at best (maybe if only as a list of Pokemon that should probably be avoided?), but I think it's OK to keep it there as long as its purpose is clear. In my opinion at least, if you are not interested in using or dealing with D-rank Pokemon, you may simply opt to ignore that the list is even there.

I guess it's also partly explained in the title - it's our Viability Rankings, emphasis on rankings. If we don't explicitly show what's considered not good & how not good it is, it's even easier for someone to think that their favorite Pokemon, Grotle, is bordering C- rank and is worth using. Of course it's absolutely not worth using, but how would they know if we don't show that there's a whole tier of Pokemon considered "poor" included above it?
 
D-Rank is useless for that purpose.

To elaborate, if you build around [insert D-rank mon], you would probably have the idea of building around said Pokémon anyway, regardless of its ranking. Pikachu is, again, a notable example. I don't give a damn if it is D-Rank or E-rank or whatever, I build around it! Inexperienced players should probably not even build around a C-rank mon if it comes to it, let alone mons worse than it.

The opposite can also happen. You have a 5-mon team. And you now figured out that you need a mon that needs to do role X, Y and assist in checking threat O. There is only one mon you can think of that can do all these roles - and it just happens to be unranked. You give it a try anyway, and guess what - it works! Of course, with every change that team undergoes in the future you need to consider to replace this mon with something that usually outclasses it, but not necessarily.
Again, you don't give a damn if that mon is E-Rank or D-rank or whatever - you use it because it fulfills that tiny niche your team needs.
As I stated before, literally every mon with an unique typing (or the best mon with a rare typing within this tier) can find itself being shoved in a team now, but a rare move can do just as well. Yes, there are examples we cannot imagine right now, and many teambuilders would probably give up on the team before resorting to this measure, not willing to give - for example - Magcargo a try.
 

Kiyo

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ok so another idea that i'd like to bring up is the possibility of changing what we call our viability tiers, rather than using a letter grade system we could try out a "tier x" system that doubles uses. the benefits that come with this system include removing preconcieved notions that because a mon is C+ in viability should be used. this is purely subjective but i think it makes sense, you're more likely to use a pokemon that is C+ in viability than a mon that is TIER 3 or TIER 4 in my opinion, maybe thats just how i see people currently using the VR and maybe im way off base.

regardless of whether this can help fix our vr, i currently think we're failing. if a newer user can come to our sub forum and see that rapidash is C+ that might mean its ok to use in their eyes, when in reality no serious nu player will EVER use rapidash unless they specifically set out to build around it. i've had multiple users that are great at their respective tiers try to learn ours for the nu open and tell me things like "ok so is everything just good in nu?" or "jeez your viability rankings didn't help me understand what to prepare for"

to me that means our current system is failing and i'd like so see more discussion on how we can fix this.
 
I feel that one of the less talked about issues with the tiers is the wording of them, specifically D. To mention that something is daft to use feels like an insult to people that are simply looking to build a nice team. People shouldn't feel stupid when they put Carbink on a team. It just feels like an unnecessary thing to add. I am actually in favor of keeping the D tier, but if it's dumb to use these Pokemon as the description says, then why is it there? As stated earlier, this page is for newer players for the most part, so shouldn't we try to make them feel welcome, rather than calling their choices for a team silly? Even the description of E rank seems better; "You should probably not be using Pokemon in this rank." That's fine, as it's not objective, but it pushes you in the right direction. It may seem a little ticky-tac, but make people feel welcome in the future. Just a little thing to note. Thanks!
 
i like Kiyos idea of introducing a tier x ranking system. It makes it so much easier to distinguish what mons that you should be prepared for vs mons that are only advantageous because the meta suits them.

From a more subjective standpoint, a new player starting NU (and possibly smogon as an entireity) will see rank 10 (if thats our new benchmark for C- / D rank) as much much much worse than C- itself. Instead of looking at it as only 2 grades from some of the best and scariest pokemon in this tier, the new user is looking at 10 whole tiers. Someone is more likely to use a mon ranked in C- than Tier 10 or 9 because the difference seems much more realistic and substantial. Quilladin is a prime example. Ranked in C-, someone might think that it is a viable option over the likes of garbodor and ferroseed, the premier spike setters in NU, when in reality its much less effective at that roll compared to those 2 pokemon for obvious reasons. However, if it was ranked in Tier 9 / 10, people would be much more likely to pass it over.

Another advantage to this new system is that you can provide a much more detailed description for each ranking. At the moment, we only have a description for ranks S, A, B, C, D and E. If you look at the stuff in B+ and B- or even C+ and C- there is a huge difference in the quality of pokemon. B+ Pokemon are knocking on the doors of A rank and B- on the doors of C Rank. This change in quality isnt heavily emphasised enough by the current system. If we decide to change to a tier x based system, we can have individual descriptions for each rank, providing much more clarity to distinguish whats good from whats not good. An example of this is that both Rotom-F and Vanilluxe are in the same rank, and are therefore defined by the same description of B Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
This description does apply to both Rotom-S and Vanilluxe but is very vague. It makes it seem like Vanilluxe (not bashing it, js) is on par with Rotom-S, which is by far the more viable pokemon in this meta at the moment, and the more likely people are to bring to a random game of NU. The description does no justice for it however, and this new way of tiering the pokemon may eliviate some of these issues regarding clarity around this VR.

I mean, as far as counter-arguements are concerned to this "new style" of ranking pokemon is that we may seem different from the likes of OU, UU etc, but is that really a problem when our VR sucks dick? It needs a change in order to make it more user friendly, and i think this is a fantastic oppurtuinity to improve our resources for new players. Its not like this idea is shit either and we are making a change for the sake of our rankings being shit. It looks like a genuine way to make our rankings a better place for all users, props to kiyo for coming up with the idea or having the balls to suggest it.

approved by me at least
 
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You could just change the definition slightly to be more inclusive or, say, move Rapidash to D; maybe it's just me but i feel viability rankings however they are done are fine if you just put the right stuff where it belongs. I don't really see the harm that would come from moving rapidash to, say, C or C- or wherever you'd want it to be corresponding to its viability. Viability rankings are just a reference and don't need to tell you everything about the tier imo
 

Disjunction

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Hey guys!

So the main consensus is that the VR needs a bit of an overhaul. I agree, so I brought up an idea with the rest of the council. Considering there seems to be a lot of conflicting opinions, ideas, and concerns on the topic so far, we've decided to hold a live discussion between the active council members who have voiced interest in participating. We'll be addressing any unique concern currently associated with the thread and reworking the system from there. I'll record the logs so you guys can see all the discussion on a particular topic, but if you don't want to do the reading we will, obviously, provide you guys with a summary of all the changes that are to be made to the thread.

The current date for the discussion that we're aiming for is Sunday, September 27th. Get all your opinions, ideas, and concerns laid out here before then so I have the most complete list of topics possible! If you have any questions, feel free to contact me and we'll get things sorted.
 
I definitely think with whatever ends up happening, those that decide should be aggressive with where they place mons. In this tier it is very well defined what is good, what isn't and whats just very niche. I don't think mons that fill a niche deserve to be ranked higher than they would be without that niche unless theres enough of a certain scenario to use a niche mon. Random example- Vibrava happens to do very well against fire spam. Is fire spam common at all? No, absolutely not. So IMO Vibrava shouldn't even be ranked as its niche is nonexistant. Maybe not the best example but yeah. IK we have some shit that people hype up because it fills a niche but really its grasping at straws sometimes because the niche it fills isnt necessary and its just being used as a point to argue a mons rise.

Also I feel like in a way people are too "nice" in regards to peoples feelings on mons. For example, I like Quilladin a ton. I think its cool. Its ranked way too high. Objectively speaking its pretty shit but because of its rating it makes it look decent, not the best but right in the middle when in reality its towards the lower end of the spectrum when looking for a spiker/phys tank.

What I'm getting at is that its okay for a mon to be shitty and I don't think anyone should have to tiptoe around saying that. This is a very minor thing but I've noticed stuff like that in the NU room. Sorta like softening the blow by saying "oh well maybe itd fit on the lower end of the rankings." Hell if you're competent enough you could argue any mon to atleast be D.

Could be wrong on any/all of these points but just putting a quick thought out there
 
I definitely think with whatever ends up happening, those that decide should be aggressive with where they place mons. In this tier it is very well defined what is good, what isn't and whats just very niche. I don't think mons that fill a niche deserve to be ranked higher than they would be without that niche unless theres enough of a certain scenario to use a niche mon. Random example- Vibrava happens to do very well against fire spam. Is fire spam common at all? No, absolutely not. So IMO Vibrava shouldn't even be ranked as its niche is nonexistant. Maybe not the best example but yeah. IK we have some shit that people hype up because it fills a niche but really its grasping at straws sometimes because the niche it fills isnt necessary and its just being used as a point to argue a mons rise.

Also I feel like in a way people are too "nice" in regards to peoples feelings on mons. For example, I like Quilladin a ton. I think its cool. Its ranked way too high. Objectively speaking its pretty shit but because of its rating it makes it look decent, not the best but right in the middle when in reality its towards the lower end of the spectrum when looking for a spiker/phys tank.

What I'm getting at is that its okay for a mon to be shitty and I don't think anyone should have to tiptoe around saying that. This is a very minor thing but I've noticed stuff like that in the NU room. Sorta like softening the blow by saying "oh well maybe itd fit on the lower end of the rankings." Hell if you're competent enough you could argue any mon to atleast be D.

Could be wrong on any/all of these points but just putting a quick thought out there
I agree with ya to be honest. In order to prove a pokemon's niche in lower rankings, maybe we should use replays & nitpick the options. To have multiple users use that pokemon on a couple teams, multiple times, against well-known and/or experienced players. That way it'll alleviate any harshness. "Put up or shut up"
I think this should only go for nominations of pokemon that are C+ and below & this should apply to everyone (even moderators). That way it's clear cut that a pokemon works in action & not just on paper. This will also prove consistency as well as how viable the niche truly is.
I also think that certain pokemon should get 2 rankings, specifically those that are on weather, so, that way we can see how viable one set is that is completely different than the other. Because, if you put a pokemon like Ludicolo in D rank because it sucks on a regular team (I don't mean this) then new players would probably disregard to use it on any team ever because they might think that it's not worth the effort when in actuality, it's probably like B+ rank in rain. Same goes vice versa. Because, if you put that same pokemon in B+ rank, a new player might think "OH! I can use this pokemon in a lot of my teams!" When, in actuality, that Ludicolo probably won't fit in many of those teams.
 

LeoLancaster

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I also think that certain pokemon should get 2 rankings, specifically those that are on weather, so, that way we can see how viable one set is that is completely different than the other. Because, if you put a pokemon like Ludicolo in D rank because it sucks on a regular team (I don't mean this) then new players would probably disregard to use it on any team ever because they might think that it's not worth the effort when in actuality, it's probably like B+ rank in rain. Same goes vice versa. Because, if you put that same pokemon in B+ rank, a new player might think "OH! I can use this pokemon in a lot of my teams!" When, in actuality, that Ludicolo probably won't fit in many of those teams.
Or, like the Doubles OU viability rankings, you could have a split "tier 2" where you separate the pokemon that are generically useful from the pokemon that are great/amazing, but only on specific teamstyles or require a team built around them (Weather 'mons, high-maintenance setup sweepers that are devastating when supported properly, etc.).
 
Or, like the Doubles OU viability rankings, you could have a split "tier 2" where you separate the pokemon that are generically useful from the pokemon that are great/amazing, but only on specific teamstyles or require a team built around them (Weather 'mons, high-maintenance setup sweepers that are devastating when supported properly, etc.).
I didn't even know about that lol but yea it could really help out for new players
 
A+ --> A- Not incredible right now, a lot of grass types around, and it doesn't counter a lot either. With most mons running moves that can do over 40% to Lanturn, no reliable recovery means it is very sub-par right now. It can still provide a bulky water type mon, electric immunity and volt switch user so it deserves A- at max.
I don't necessarily agree with this nomination as such as i think the reasoning you've provided isn't very good but I'd like to highlight what niches it does have and what niches it may have lost of recent.
Lanturn has such unique typing that it can break apart cores at the moment and has the ability to gain momentum extremely easily. That is what has kept it at A+ and what makes it a top tier pokemon, no volt switch immunity reliably switches in on lanturn apart from lanturn, hence making it extremely useful in regards as an offensive pivot and cleric in one, heck it is extremely powerful when running specs and it's extremely bulky naturally, hence why i would disagree with dropping lanturn. The points in your post which make very little sense to me are lots of grass types around? offensive lanturn 2 hits / 1 hits every grass type in the tier with ice beam, so it may just be your set of choice. Whilst it may not have reliable recovery, it still has immense bulk, carries leftovers for passive recovery and usually heal bell to avoid being status'd itself whilst also having protect on some sets.

The reasons that would bring up for debate for it to drop however are using it as your bulky water. As rhydon is so prominent in the tier right now, usually you'd like a bulky water that can take on rhydon such as prinplup or poliwrath. Not only that but lanturn sets aren't checking fire types very well nor are they checking any of the top tier mons such as archeops, tauros, magmortar or even rotom since the most popular set nowadays is the wisp-hex set which means that people have found ways of adapting to lanturn and are exploiting its weaknesses and common dual stab combo.
In conclusion, i would probably say that lanturn has lost favour, just not the same role it had in team builds, hence why i would drop it to A rather than A-. It's lost a slight variety in roles, but not enought to drop further than that.
 
B+ --> B/B- We all know this isn't very good at all right now, shiftry is simply better as an offensive mon, and let's face it, no one would use cacturne as a main spiker, people would rather use roselia, garbodor or crustle. Simply not good as an offensive/support mon and doesn't deserve B+.
Eh I still think Cacturne's good. Water absorb is huge, and makes a great switch in for standard pivot lanturn and other weak water types like Prinplup and Quagsire something Shiftry really fears from doing because of scald burns and being worn down. It's Special Based sets still works great as it's able to 2HKO Vileplume, Weezing and Garbodor for example with LO Dark Pulse and without having to worry about Rocky Helmet + Aftermath damage or Effect Spore. (Weezing just dies lol) For Shiftry's case all of these can withstand a multiple hits and it puts Shiftry and a desired position usually being forced out after an attack. Cacturne still has a few cool tricks that set itself apart like Spiky Shield, Destiny Bond and giga drain which gives you a reliable stab with recovery so your on the field for longer but I'll agree with you with the spikes situation (better left to Garbodor or something else), for the most part it has few opportunities and most of the time your better off attacking. Sucks that hazard control is more common too so I'd rather just use something else over spikes but overall I'd still like to see Cacturne at B+ because it has clear advantages to justifying it's usage over Shiftry. I'd hate to see this thing go down.
 
A- --> B+ I'm actually crying rn. As much as it pains me to say, quagsire isn't as good as it was before, with the recent rise of rhydon, grass types and pokemon running grass type moves are incredibly common right now, consuquently, Quagsire loses a lot of it's effectivness, while it is still a good mon, it fails to handle the amount of things that can very easily 2HKO it forcing it out a lot of the time.
Quag probably shouldnt drop either. not a lot has changed for it from past metas, and im not sure where this influx of grass types you're talking about is coming from. A lot of mons that shit on grass types are really popular right now like Skunk and Mag. Everything has always been running HP Grass, rhydon or not, because this is NU and HP grass has always been the most effective HP. in fact, the rise of offensive rhydon is actually a good thing for quag since its one of the better checks on defensive teams not named gourgeist, while also being the hardest stop to gears in the tier. its great typing and ability to hard check like 90% of set-up mons on defensive/more passive balance teams are enough to keep it A- imo.

upload_2015-9-21_20-42-55.png
A- -> B+/B
Haunter is an example of a mon that is just caught in the wrong meta. It's a little too slow to be considered a really strong mon against offense since it'll often be outsped by common offensive mons like Pyroar, Scyther, Tauros and it struggles against a lot of bulky offense and balance builds since a lot of them are running Skuntank which shits all over Haunter. The fact that skuntank is the 4th most used poke in the meta right now means that haunter will often be limited to maybe 1 kill a game (and thats being looking at it positively) which isn't very good at all.

upload_2015-9-21_20-50-37.png
B+ -> B/B-
Prinplup isn't great right now either, simply because of how easy it is to wear down. Lack of recovery of any kind and vunerability to every kind of hazard means that all it takes is a switch-in or 2 to until it gets to the point where a lot of the common hazard setters can 2HKO it (and one of the main draws to prinplup was that it beat common hazard setters). The 2 of the 3 most common rockers (Torterra and Mesprit) just beat it straight up, and it can't even switch into Garbodor very well since it risks being poisoned and getting worn down even quicker. Its main draw right now is that it can also check offensive Rhydon, but even then it can only switch in once before it gets 2HKO'd.

1st relevant post in a while oo
 
B+ -> B/B-
Prinplup isn't great right now either, simply because of how easy it is to wear down. Lack of recovery of any kind and vunerability to every kind of hazard means that all it takes is a switch-in or 2 to until it gets to the point where a lot of the common hazard setters can 2HKO it (and one of the main draws to prinplup was that it beat common hazard setters). The 2 of the 3 most common rockers (Torterra and Mesprit) just beat it straight up, and it can't even switch into Garbodor very well since it risks being poisoned and getting worn down even quicker. Its main draw right now is that it can also check offensive Rhydon, but even then it can only switch in once before it gets 2HKO'd.
I'm gonna have to disagree with this one. Prinplup's greatest niche is being the only Poke in NU with Defog that isn't weak to SR. Prinplup shouldn't be switching in to Torterra and Mespirit, hopefully you should have a counter ready that can beat them 1 v 1. Prinplup's goal is to be able to enter, Defog, maybe set up rocks, and leave. And because Water remains a great defensive typing, I think it's fine to keep Prinplup where it is.
 

Silver Aurum

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I'm gonna have to disagree with this one. Prinplup's greatest niche is being the only Poke in NU with Defog that isn't weak to SR. Prinplup shouldn't be switching in to Torterra and Mespirit, hopefully you should have a counter ready that can beat them 1 v 1. Prinplup's goal is to be able to enter, Defog, maybe set up rocks, and leave. And because Water remains a great defensive typing, I think it's fine to keep Prinplup where it is.
Just want to say that you forgot about defog Skuntank (even if it is mediocre on any non-special sets) and defog shiftry which is another mediocre defogger but is fine as the filler move on mixed. I personally haven't been a fan of prinplup for a while as Can-Eh-Dian said its lack of recovery and it's tendency to get worn down quickly are two major drawbacks and I definitely agree with a drop to B. I also feel that it is just far too pressured to both Defog and set rocks in the same game due to its lack of recovery and how fast it is worn down. It's also a bulky water so its rather passive besides relying on scald burns (but lets be real that is burning 99% of the time hehe).
 

Ren-chon

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I'm gonna have to disagree with this one. Prinplup's greatest niche is being the only Poke in NU with Defog that isn't weak to SR.

If you mean 'mons that should be running Defog or whose job is almost only to Defog (amongst the viable pokemons ofc, because the above Lumineon isn't), then yeah. Otherwise, those 3 are sad.

I think I gotta be seconding Prinplup for B, but nothing lower. I mean, having SR + Defog + quite a nice defensive typing is good and everything, but I've been using Prinplup in a team lately (SDef, but I've used the Def one quite extensively) and it's just way too easy to wear it down. The fact that it doesn't have any way to recover HP at all AND is susceptible to all form of hazards AND has almost 0 offensive presence actually makes him weaker to SR than the other common defoggers, as it can't 1) be switching all that much on hazards to Defog, and it's the only relevant Defogger along Shiftry who is weak to TS; and 2) force things out since it hits as hard as a paraplegic kid kick, so usually you're gonna get hit on the switch AND the following turn when you're trying to Defog, since most of the time your opp can afford to tank a hit, unlike what happens with Archeops for example. So yah, Prinplup still has a niche as SR+Defog user with some nick bulk on both sides, but it's weak, easy to wear down and actually weak to hazards. B, but not B-.

Well, got a bit ninja'd by silverreaper, but I think his post and mine are enough to further explain can-eh-dian's argument n_n
 

thesecondbest

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Or, like the Doubles OU viability rankings, you could have a split "tier 2" where you separate the pokemon that are generically useful from the pokemon that are great/amazing, but only on specific teamstyles or require a team built around them (Weather 'mons, high-maintenance setup sweepers that are devastating when supported properly, etc.).
IMO whoever came up with that syst is a genius. It allows you to put, say, swift swim stuff in high ranks and not hear "LOL kingdra sucks use kube" and it should certainly be implemented in every tier. I know some tiers mighe be stubborn but while we're talking about change I second this.
 
exeggutor.png
-> B
IMO i think that the meta has faded out of exeggutor's favor, its a slow somewhat bulky hard hitting special attacker with a double edged typing, Grass Psychic, though it may resist a lot of types in the NU meta i think its just out shined by all the fire, dark, ice, ghost, and flying types and bug STABs. these types are so common in NU right now making it difficult for offensive exeggutor to function well, whether it be LO, TR, Sun, or Lum Rest, exeggutor is pressured so much and so often in the meta it can barely ever get something going for it itself and can be very team dependent for TR and sun support since its hard enough for it to attack or switch in safely. Lum Rest can also leave you open for malamar, a free swich since teams often unintentionally prep for exegg, set-up, and is complete knock off bait. BUT since exeggutor is viable with TR/Sun support and depending on the opposing team make Lum Rest work, resist Vswitch and counters the ever so cute
Lanturn.png
i think it should drop to B but no further than that.
 
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(Gourgeist-Super) -> A-

Gourgeist-Super is incredibly bulky in physically aspect, has reliable recovery in synthesis+leech seed. It can stop almost every physical pokémon in NU and if it's sets up can hit it with Foul Play. Not to mention with Colbur Berry this is the only counter to sawk that you just do not have to predict what the opponant does. (unless ice punch with is 41,8% chance to 2 hit ko), can cut his attack in half with Will-o-Wisp. The typing of gourgeist makes it even better as a wall. It also stops DD rhydon 1 on 1.
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Colbur Berry Gourgeist-Super: 110-130 (29.4 - 34.7%) -- 9.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 148-176 (39.5 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 170-202 (45.4 - 54%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 118-139 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- 81.3% chance to 3HKO
 
Floatzel -> A
I think that Floatzel should be placed higher in ranking, albeit slightly.
It outspeeds all the 5 S rank Pokémon and severely damage all of them. Water is always a good offensive type, and Floatzel has good stats on both sides to hit with. It can run a Life Orb special set, a pretty underrated Choice Band set (which differenciates itself from Physical Samurott with the access to Switcheroo and higher Speed, while still having coverage and priority), and a niche Bulk Up BP set. Its main ability Water Veil provides and excellent switch-in to Scald from defensive Pokémon such as Mantine or Pelipper, while not fearing Will o Wisp as well should you run Crunch to hit Ghosts. It also gets access to a very fast Taunt (faster than Archeops), making it a decent lead considering its matchup vs Stealth Rock setters. Sure it has paper thin defenses that make it a pain to switch into any hit, even resisted, and faces stiff competition from the aforementioned Samurott as well as other Water Types, but I think that its niches and excellent matchup against a lot of big threats are good reasons to move it up.
 
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View attachment 50367 -> B
IMO i think that the meta has faded out of exeggutor's favor, its a slow somewhat bulky hard hitting special attacker with a double edged typing, Grass Psychic, though it may resist a lot of types in the NU meta i think its just out shined by all the fire, dark, ice, ghost, and flying types and bug STABs. these types are so common in NU right now making it difficult for offensive exeggutor to function well, whether it be LO, TR, Sun, or Lum Rest, exeggutor is pressured so much and so often in the meta it can barely ever get something going for it itself and can be very team dependent for TR and sun support since its hard enough for it to attack or switch in safely. Lum Rest can also leave you open for malamar, a free swich since teams often unintentionally prep for exegg, set-up, and is complete knock off bait. BUT since exeggutor is viable with TR/Sun support and depending on the opposing team make Lum Rest work, resist Vswitch and counters the ever so cuteView attachment 50368 i think it should drop to B but no further than that.
Yea Eggy should 100% drop, meta drops and trends have been against it. It has one of the worst coverages of the psychic types in NU if not the worst. It is the only really viable psychic type in NU to not get signal beam meaning it has two pokemon now in Shiftry + Cacturne that just wall it (Hp fire is a thing for non-sun but you only 2hko and are just going to die to sucker). It has far too many weaknesses to really utilize a more defensive set with harvest. In the past its ability to put things to sleep and fire off attacks from base 125 special attack made it strong but there are so many pokemon now that just give it so much trouble. Rest/Sleep Talk Malamar, Shiftry, Cacturne, Mega Audino, Magmortar, and Xatu are just some of the more popular ones. Its potency on Sun + Trick room hold it up a lot (primarily sun though), but even then every other team has a sucker punch/pursuit user meaning sweeping even with support is much harder now. Even then I find on my teams Eggy has a lot of competition from other psychic types who can actually set up to get past fat blobs like Mega Audino or Xatu. Generally I lean Victreebel> Eggy on Sun and Musharna/Beeheeyem> Eggy on Trick room now because just relying on sleep powder to break past blobs isn't reliable enough any more. Still very threatening but needs a lot more support now.
 
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