Landorus-T (GP: 2/2)

[Minority]

QC Checks: Nayrz / Fireburn / Sweep
GP Checks: The Dutch Plumberjack / P Squared

[OVERVIEW]

Landorus-T's Ground immunity and powerful Earthquake allow it to checks a variety of threats in Ubers, including Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, Swords Dance Arceus, Klefki, and Mega Blaziken. Its ability Intimidate has good utility, allowing Landorus-T to pivot and simulate more physical bulk than it actually has. The interesting Ground / Flying typing makes it immune to Ground and Electric attacks but leaves it with an exploitable weakness to Ice. A high base 145 Attack gives Landorus-T the brute strength to threaten its foes, and its base 91 Speed sits just above the common base 90 Speed benchmark. Landorus-T has a solid physical movepool to play around with, including moves such as Explosion and U-turn, which are tools not available to other Ground-types in Ubers. Its immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes prevents it from becoming worn down as it pivots around. Although these traits are worthwhile, Landorus-T faces competition from Primal Groudon to some extent, which is slightly stronger, has better bulk, checks a larger portion of the metagame, and is immune to burns. Furthermore, what Landorus-T does check, it does not always check well in a defensive manner, as it is highly susceptible to burns and lacks an instant recovery move. It is also quite specially frail, taking significant damage from unboosted special attacks such as Moonblast, Draco Meteor, and Judgment.


[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Stone Edge
move 3: U-turn
move 4: Explosion
item: Choice Scarf
ability: Intimidate
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe


[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Earthquake is the strongest move Landorus-T has to consistently dish out damage and trumps a variety of relevant targets. Stone Edge hits much of what Earthquake does not, such as Ho-Oh, offensive Yveltal, Rayquaza, and Shaymin-S, while also being able to finish off Lugia and Giratina-O. U-turn prevents Landorus-T from giving free turns to opposing teams, eases prediction, and allows it to function better as a pivot. Explosion is a great last-ditch method of dealing damage while maintaining momentum and preventing the foe from being able to use Defog. Superpower can be used to hit threats such as Extreme Killer Arceus, Ferrothorn, and Darkrai harder than Earthquake, but it is typically a poor move to be locked into.


Set Details
========

252 Attack EVs with an Adamant nature are used to make Landorus-T hit as hard as possible and always 2HKO standard defensive Primal Groudon. 252 Speed EVs give Landorus-T the raw Speed for the Choice Scarf to boost, granting it the ability to outspeed Mega Mewtwo Y and everything up to Choice Scarf base 90 Speed Pokemon that don't run a Speed-boosting nature. A Choice Scarf gives Landorus-T the ability to revenge kill a variety of foes it would otherwise get outsped by, such as Darkrai, Mega Gengar, Xerneas, Mewtwo, and Arceus formes.


Usage Tips
========

The combination of Intimidate and U-turn allows Landorus-T to function as a pivot; however, because Landorus-T has no instant or passive recovery, it can only be used a few times as such. This set is somewhat unexpected for opponents, so spamming fast U-turns early in the game is a good way to give away the set. You should play minimally until a situation arises where the opponent intends to stay in thinking they will move first; this is how you can surprise them. Even though Earthquake has many targets in the Ubers tier, virtually all teams pack one or several Ground-immune Pokemon. In the situation of an eventual switch into a Ground-immune target by your opponent, you will want to use U-turn or, alternatively, Stone Edge, if their Ground-immune Pokemon can be taken down by it. Make sure your team can accommodate giving the opponent a free turn with a Ground-immune Pokemon before deciding to revenge kill with Earthquake. If you cannot, do not attempt to KO a foe with Earthquake.


Team Options
========

Darkrai is an effective teammate that can be easier to get into play due to Landorus-T's U-turn. Furthermore, it is great at threatening stall, a playstyle that this set is unable to break on its own. Xerneas benefits from the offensive check to Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh that Landorus-T provides. Mega Gengar, like Darkrai, is easier to get into play thanks to U-turn and is able to threaten several of the bulky Pokemon that wall this set. Ghost Arceus alongside Landorus-T can provide a sufficient offensive check to Extreme Killer Arceus while Ghost Arceus benefits from the additional check to Ho-Oh. Dark Arceus can function as a stallbreaker and threaten Pokemon such as Giratina-O and Lugia, which annoy Landorus-T. Primal Kyogre can further lay on the pressure against Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh while also being able to blast through threats that specialize in physical bulk. Yveltal can threaten Ghost Arceus, Giratina-O, and Lugia effectively, three big threats for Landorus-T. Rock Arceus secures issues against Ho-Oh and Mega Salamence and appreciates Landorus-T's Ground immunity.



[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

A Double Dance set with a Life Orb and a Jolly nature has the strength and Speed to break down an array of relevant threats; however, such a set is in steep competition with Ground Arceus. A defensive Stealth Rock set is better at switching into strong physical attacks, but it lacks the ability to pivot as fluidly and isn't exceptionally good at breaking anything. Sleep Talk can be used on the Choice Scarf set to allow Landorus-T to switch into Darkrai's Dark Void, but it has little other use and Landorus-T isn't the best Pokemon to be switching into Darkrai in the first place.



Checks and Counters
===================

**Giratina Formes**: Giratina-O is immune to Earthquake, Explosion, and Superpower and takes very little from Stone Edge and U-turn. In return, it can heavily damage Landorus-T with Draco Meteor or burn it with Will-O-Wisp. Giratina is so bulky that, despite taking neutral damage from Earthquake, it is able to effectively wall Landorus-T.

**Support Arceus**: Support Arceus formes such as Water, Ghost, Fairy, and Grass are bulky enough to wall Landorus-T.

**Bronzong and Skarmory**: Both Bronzong and Skarmory are immune to Landorus-T's Earthquake and take very little from any of its coverage options. In return, they can Toxic Landorus-T, set entry hazards, or whittle it down with offensive moves.

**Lugia**: Lugia is immune to Earthquake and, despite its weakness to Rock, doesn't take significant damage from Stone Edge. In return, Lugia can smack Landorus-T with Ice Beam or poison it with Toxic.

**Mega Sableye**: Mega Sableye can burn Landorus-T with Will-O-Wisp, smack it around with Foul Play, and recover away Earthquake damage.

**Ferrothorn**: Although Ferrothorn fears Superpower to some extent, it can Leech Seed Landorus-T and set up Spikes.

**Primal Kyogre**: Primal Kyogre has enough bulk to stomach one of Landorus-T's Earthquakes and can cleanly KO it with strong Water-type moves or Ice Beam.

**Cloyster**: Cloyster can OHKO Landorus-T with Icicle Spear and has plenty of physical bulk to survive Earthquake.

**Ice Arceus**: Although it is hit hard by Superpower or Stone Edge, Ice Arceus is rather bulky and can OHKO Landorus-T.

 

[dice]

it doesnt rly check anything well.. at all..

 

[Fireburn]

I hate to be that guy since I know you're good at writing analyses but:

1. I don't recall you reserving this Pokemon. (You did make a post in the analysis discussion thread but not a formal reservation)
2. This Pokemon is on the Rejected list, so I can't let you take this without a post in the reservation thread explaining why it should be reconsidered (and be given ok by QC).

Locking until when/if these requirements are satisfied.

Sweep told me he gave you approval for this, so unlocking.

 

[Fireburn]

Double posting Minority Suspect so this gets your attention. Sweep and I discussed this mon on IRC and here are some thoughts.

Support sets are trash and should be removed. Landorus-T does not check enough Pokemon to make them worthwhile. Primal Groudon with Fire-type moves breaks Landorus-T with ease, Ho-Oh burns you, Mega Blaziken usually has HP Ice nowadays for Salamence, doesn't really have a chance against SD Normal/Ghost Arcs, and loses to everything special. Primal Groudon itself is also much more reliable at setting and keeping Stealth Rock up than Landorus-T is.

Scarf is okay and should be first (maybe only) set. Shuca Dialga is probably a good partner for this set, it stops DD Mence which is the biggest worry of locking into choiced Ground moves and provides SR. Also appreciates free switches from U-turn spam.

Consider a Double Dance set. It could potentially be threatening alongside an offensive SR/RP 3 attacks Primal Groudon for a sort of double Ground offensive core where Primal Groudon can beat things that Landorus-T can't using its superior coverage options. Intimidate and Ground immunity will help give you opportunities to set up. In theory, anyway.

Still not 100% sold on this mon but I'll see what you can do with it.

 

[Minority]

There are still some people that like the support sets so I'll give them a chance to defend them by putting them under hide tags for now, but ya, they'll probs end up getting trashed. I'll also add the other stuff. Testing double dance will take some time so I'll get around to that when I can; if it goes well I'll be able to make a case for it.

 

[Minority]

Okay I spent a couple days testing double dance Lando-T just casually on the ladder so I have some preliminary thoughts.

(set I tested with)

Landorus-T @ Earth Plate
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

I suppose you could also use a set of 140 HP / 252+ Atk / 116 Spe which outspeeds up to +1 max base 100s when at +2 to get a bit more bulk into the set, but I decided not to go with this for a few reasons. First, I wanted Lando-T to be able to outspeed 252 base 90s before setup, especially when 116 EVs were already dumped into Speed as it was. Second, the 140 HP didn't seem to meet as many benchmarks as I wanted. I did only look at a handful of calcs but out of those few this was the most relevant difference I saw:

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 140 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 265-312 (74.8 - 88.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 265-312 (83 - 97.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Adamant EKiller largely nullifies this difference, while for the couple builds I tested this on I was using a more solid offensive EKiller check in conjunction anyways, thus largely eliminating the need to be able to survive such a scenario. As for the item I suppose you could use a Life Orb, but I really didn't want the recoil and I didn't notice any significant power loss, for example +2 Earth Plate SE OHKOs any Lugia so long as SR is up, no Life Orb needed. These were about the most interesting things I saw in regards to EP vs LO but again, there could be more relevant calcs out there:

+1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Salamence: 362-428 (92.1 - 108.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Salamence: 471-556 (119.8 - 141.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 147-174 (44 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 191-226 (57.1 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

When it comes to actually using the set the first thing I noticed is that it's difficult to setup. To be blunt, the bulk sucks, especially when the foe hasn't been Intimidated. Any decent offensive Pokemon with neutral STAB, even against the 140 HP set, is dealing in the realm of 65% - 90%, the only exceptions are like Mega Gengar (which can cause some mind games) and Arc Ground if it lacks Ice Beam. Most of the remaining offensive Pokemon either won't be staying in or are obscure. This is not to say that it's impossible to setup or that it won't ever get decent opportunities, just that it's more fragile than I was expecting.

As for synergy I don't have anything particularly positive or negative to say. I built two teams with it, the first using Double Dance P Don and the second using offensive SR P Don. One of the more annoying factors was adequately covering EKiller while keeping everything else I wanted, and I think part of the reason for this is because I'm using a slot on something that sorta checks EKiller but really isn't adequate alone, so I end up having to spend another slot that is primarily there to check EKiller. You can argue that it's only natural for teams to allocate multiple slots to keeping big threats in check, but this Pokemon was still a bit of a challenge to build with.

In regards to Lando-T + P Don's ability to pressure phys def mons it did well, but none of my opponents really had solid defensive teams to begin with. Defensive mons like Arc Water outspeed you when unboosted unless you are running Jolly, and without +2 you aren't doing nearly enough damage, although Jolly +2 wacks it pretty hard, hard enough to where if Arc Water has taken a P Don EQ without Recovering it's not going to survive. The set is quite impressive against other common defensive Pokes, clean KOing Lugia (SR of course with Jolly), Mega Sab, Ferro, and 2HKOing Clef. It even OHKOs max Def Primal Kyogre.

The set I would write for the analysis would be:
Landorus-T @ Earth Plate / Life Orb
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly
- Rock Polish
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

140 HP / 252+ Atk / 116 Spe in Set Details


That's pretty much all I have to say about the set, I'm not gunning for its viability or anything but it could be worthwhile and I'm ready to write on it if needed.

 

[Sweep]

I am going to outright reject any attempts to put up a support set, it checks absolutely nothing and is a SHIT pivot...yes it counters sd groundceus but so does a lot of niche shit.

+1 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 187-220 (48.9 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 0 Atk Primal Groudon Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T in Harsh Sunshine: 106-126 (27.7 - 32.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Primal Groudon Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T in Harsh Sunshine: 222-262 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 208+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 160-190 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 166-196 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (fast variants annihalate lando, , ,)
-1 208+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 135-159 (35.3 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 156-184 (40.8 - 48.1%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (mence destroys you anyway, especially Refresh variants)

This metagame is way too strong for defensive Lando. Leave it in OO. You can also remove the hide tags from the analysis xD

Feel free to include your double dance set, I'd accept it. Jolly looks encouraging. One question: if you use this with Rock Polish Primal Groudon, what is setting SR?

 

[Minority]

Alright SR set supporters missed their chance so I removed them completely. Guess I'll add the dance set when I get to it.

Sweep, on the first build I was testing with I decided to use Mega Diancie as my SR setter for a number of reasons. I didn't really explore other potential setters like Dialga, Deo-S, or Mega Aero, but you could probs be able to get a few different things to work.

 

[Minority]

Double Dance set is up and this is ready to be checked.

One of the bigger points of discussion should be Adamant vs Jolly on the set. I kept it Adamant first slash for now, but outspeeding standard Lugia and Arc Water is pretty huge, and it eases things up against base 90s and Adamant Rayquaza.

 

[Hack]

The problem with double dance lando-t is that it has to run jolly nature to put a dent in lugia/waterceus, which is something pdon doesn't need for its SD sets. I am on the fence regarding it, but I do agree with sweep removing the support set.

I used scarf lando-t a bit recently and I've had overall pleasant experiences, it's definitely worthwhile on the builds I've done with it.

 

[Nayrz]

well since this doesnt seem to be going anywhere i'll speed it along. aside from the support set (which is already removed) this looks solid to me.

QC 1/3

 

[Hack]

Hmm I guess I haven't thought too much more of the double dance set, but can someone actually show me some replays/teams of it being used? I am thinking it might not actually be worth since unlike SD Pdon, you can't really break Waterceus+Lugia at all so what is the actual reason to use that set? It doesn't many options to get past stuff like Giratina-O either. Even a random support Arceus such as Ghost will be a huge roadblock. Sure if you want an SR pdon on your team but still want an SD ground mon you can use this but... Can't you just use Groundceus then? And why would you want a double dancer on balance in the first place- especially when said double dancer doesn't threaten stall?

Intimidate is honestly always amazing utility for any team... Which is why I think scarf set might be the ony way to go as it brings out the best of said utility (via u-turn).

 

[Minority]

I don't have any worthwhile replays to show you, but there are a couple points I'd like to address. First, I think Jolly double dance Lando can potentially break standard Arc Water and Lugia. In Arc Water's case you only need 20% - 30% chipped on it before Lando blasts through. With Lugia you only need Multiscale not intact (SR, chip, or status on it). With SR P Don and the right offensive support I think it's possible to force such conditions (all the teams I tested against sucked so I don't have hard evidence). +2 Life Orb Lando wacks Gira-O pretty hard, and while WoW Arc Ghost is annoying, +0 EQ is still dealing about 50%. It's also not terribly hard for offensive teams to pressure Gira-O or Arc Ghost as they are a bit less resilient than mons employed on stall.

Sure if you want an SR pdon on your team but still want an SD ground mon you can use this but... Can't you just use Groundceus then?

Yes, but there are two drawbacks that prevents Arc Ground from entirely outclassing Lando for this role. First, there is a noticeable loss of power. Arc Ground fails to OHKO Mega Sab, Multiscale-less Lugia, and Ferro from full while Lando does. Arc Ground fails to 2HKO Phys Def Clefable and requires about 45% chip on Arc Water, a significant increase from the average 25% chip Lando requires. Arc Ground also does significantly less to Gira-O and still has to win 2 speed ties to beat Arc Ghost, so the Speed doesn't offer much advantage overcoming that threat as compared to Lando. The second drawback is that Arc Ground uses your Arc slot, and while you may be able to argue that the associated opportunity cost with that is equal or less than that of using Lando, having that free Arc spot can make a difference.

I don't think it is at all fair to say that Lando doesn't threaten stall considering that it can break Mega Sab, Def Mega Mence, Ferrothorn, Blissey, Clefable along with Lugia and Arc Water under common conditions.

 

[steelskitty]

Writing this on my phone but I'll try to avoid typos.

I'm against including the double dancer set on the analysis for a few reasons. Firstly, I don't agree with your comparison of it to Groundceus at all. A lot of the 'mons you mentioned it overpowering lose to Groundceus anyway. You say that +2 Landorus-T KOs Ferrothorn whereas Arceus-Ground does not; I don't think this is relevant because Arceus-Ground beats Ferrothorn anyway. Groundceus also beats Lugia with Stealth Rock up (or it gets phased and the opponent is left with a Lugia at like 10% with Rocks up). You say that Landorus-T 2HKOs physdef Clefable and Mega Sableye, which is true, but... if we're being honest Clefable is a really uncommon 'mon and most sets will run SDef due to the difficulty of fitting another Yveltal and Xerneas check alongside it, and Mega Sableye not having a little chip damage by the time Arceus-Ground ground wants to set up is rather unlikely. It's a Sableye, it's either going to take chip damage at some point from switching in on a hazard setter like Klefki or it's gonna give you endless free turns by spamming recover. Not to mention that Arceus-Ground still technically /does/ beat Mega Sableye in clutch situations, but it doesn't come out without a burn. Also, I don't think Landorus-T doing more damage to Giratina-O is the most important thing ever given how easy Giratina-O is to wear down; it's not like Landorus-T always wants to stay in and Stone Edge and eat a Draco Meteor, anyway.

I also dislike how you say that Landorus-T beats Arceus-Water easier when I don't even think that's true. Arceus-Water should always run at least enough speed to be faster than Rayquaza which already means a smart player using it will beat your Adamant set, and it's not unheard of for Arceus-Water to creep problem 'mons like Mega Diancie or Jolly CB Ho-Oh (I know that at least I have done this before) so I'm not entirely sure staying in with Landorus-T on Arceus-Water is the best course of action even when you are Jolly. I mean, compare this to Arceus-Water's performance vs Arceus-Ground; if Arceus-Ground has taken <20% damage by the time it comes in vs +2 Groundceus (think of it setting up on a Klefki or a -2 Lati, for instance), then said Groundceus beats Waterceus.

Two more advantages that SD Arceus-Ground has over double dancer Landorus-T that kind of tie in together are the fact that it has Recover and the fact that it actually checks some dangerous 'mons. Arceus-Ground is a check to Mega Diancie, Dialga, and Primal Groudon, among other things, whilst the only things offensive Landorus-T checks (and nowhere near reliably, I might add) are Ho-Oh, double dancer Primal Groudon, and SD Arceus-Ground. Groundceus needs to be at around 50% for Landorus-T to switch in on SD and beat it, Ho-Oh cleanly 2HKOs it factoring in Intimidate, and whilst it does beat SD Primal Groudon, it doesn't switch consistently in on PDon at all and is very susceptible to getting rk'd by another 'mon on the offensive teams SD PDon is usually on. Arceus-Ground's Recover also affords it more setup opportunities than Landorus-T gets and is generally helpful for sticking around longer.

You mention the opportunity cost of using an Arceus form as opposed to Landorus-T in your post. This is an argument I don't agree with because I think there's a lot less opportunity cost to using an offensive titan like Arceus-Ground as your obligatory Arceus form (Groundceus really isn't hard to just slap on teams dude), as opposed to expending a whole team slot on a Pokemon that consistently defensively checks one or two variants of one Pokemon, doesn't set up on much, only has a slightly above average speed tier, and doesnt really offer any greater offensive presence in practice.

Other QC can chime in if they want but I'm all for the double dancer set being removed.

 

[Fireburn]

DD Landorus-T doesn't really need to run Adamant. It's already hitting harder than Arceus-Ground with 25 points more in Attack + LO, and I don't think Jolly causes it to lose out on any KOes.

I think you are undervaluing Landorus-T's extra power. It is still getting to set up relatively easily against stall (TTar, Ferro, Bliss, sleeping or Plumeless PDons, Aegis, Clef, slow Diancie) and it needs much less chip to break walls since it can do things Arceus-Ground can't like OHKO Lugia after SR, OHKO Mega Sableye, and KO Arceus-Water with much less chip. All you really need is like Stealth Rock and a Lava Plume burn on Arceus-Water from your PDon and that pretty easily sets the stage for Lando-T to clean up. Arceus-Ground needs to wait longer before it can accomplish the same thing, and if you're using offense you'd rather not play the waiting game against stall if you can help it.

Intimidate and Ground-immunity are also good utility against offense. Walling DD Primal Groudon on HO is very nice, Arceus-Ground is also a potential setup target (+1 Stone Edge does 40% max lel), and checking sand Excadrill is also a good perk. Admittedly, both Groundceus and Lando-T get 2HKOed by Iron Head after SR, but Lando-T can at least switch in on Earthquake!

Having the freedom to run EKiller or Ghostceus on offense instead is also quite useful.

 

[Hack]

Unless someone can prove anything to me in practice I'm not seeing it. +2 LO doesn't even OHKO Water Arceus after SR and it will only get off the hit if it outspeeds (which is not guaranteed as steel pointed out). And that's the worst scenario for stall. The best scenario is simply multiscale Lugia. Steel's post is convincing enough, so I'm not going to accept double dance unless someone actually shows my anything concrete.

Arceus-Ground does most sweeping better. It lives the judgment from Waterceus and continues its sweep toxiced or weakened (which isn't a big deal vs bulky teams). Recover manages to dump on Giratina-O. And there is no point in bringing up that Lando-T does 50 % unboosted to Ghostceus, because it hardly matters as you won't break that, ever.

I think it's fair saying Lando-T can't actually threaten stall because games aren't played in a vacuum. You can't simply bring up ideal scenarios when it is you who are running a LO attacker with no way to regain any traction from any misplay/misfortune whatsoever. And that's why Arceus-Ground is so much better. It simply is safer, even though the power drop is noticeable on paper. But you can still always get past Arceus-Water if you set SD on a switch in. And if SR are up you are likely to beat Lugia anyway.

Intimidate utility is nice, but scarf does this better, with a lot more beneficial traits. Regarding Lando-t vs Groundceus in checking offensive Pdon: both emergency check double dance edgequake (lando a bit better if you haven't weakened it but you are playing offense so cmon), lando-t loses to rp special, both check rp fire punch about as well.

It dislike the points you are making regarding "oh but Arceus-Ground takes up an Arceus slot". It isn't relevant. If you have elected to use a team based on a strong ground sweeper, why simply not use the better one? The freedom of running another Arceus forme would be relevant if it wasn't for the facts that a) if you want a bulky support Arceus forme, you are not using a DD Lando-t b) if you run HO, you use SD Primal Groudon c) if you are running SR Primal Groudon and want to use a bulky offense, you run Arceus-Ground.

TLDR: There are other, more reliable ways to break stall, and you can retain better match ups vs anything remotely offense by using Arceus-Ground instead.

 

[Nayrz]

holy SHIT can someone just post a qc 2/3

im loving all the discussion but this analysis has been at a standstill and nobody wants to reach a conclusion

 

[Fireburn]

Tested DD Lando, it's ~ok~ but on the team I used it on I felt like SD Groundceus + Mega Gengar would have been better than Lando-T + Ekiller/Ghostceus. You also miss out on U-turn which is one of the coolest things about this dude. Leave it in OO.

QC 2/3

 

[Minority]

Okay this is written.

 

[Sweep]

In Set Details, "The remaining 4 EVs are used to slightly raise the Defense stat. A Jolly nature is an option to guarantee that Landorus-T will outspeed up to +2 Rock Polish Primal Groudon" is pretty misleading, Lando is still gonna be outrun by +2 Groudon unless it's running less than 68 speed (I know the standard spread might have less than this, but the reality is that I and many other players rarely run that little speed on it, I usually make sure it can outrun 200 def Xern before either sets up at the very least). Considering Adamant Lando-T outruns Mega Mewtwo Y and below, and scarf Zekrom is exceeedingly rare (and will also likely use Adamant anyway), Adamant should be the only nature slashed IMO.

Looks good otherwise, QC 3/3

 

[Hack]

Remove the supes slash tho

 

[Minority]

Jolly is gone, Superpower is moves mention. Moving to GP.

 

[The Bravest Bird]

hi friend, amcheck :)
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[OVERVIEW]

Landorus-T's Ground immunity and powerful Earthquake allows it to checks a variety of threats in Ubers including Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, Swords Dance Arceus, Klefki, and Mega Blaziken. Its ability Intimidate has good utility, allowing Landorus-T to pivot and simulate more physical bulk than it actually has. The interesting Ground / Flying typing makes it immune to Ground and Electric attacks, but leaves it with an exploitable weakness to Ice. A strong base 145 Attack gives Landorus-T the brute strength to threaten its foes, and a base 91 Speed sits just above the common base 90 Speed benchmark. Landorus-T has a solid physical movepool to play around with, including moves such as Explosion and U-turn,(semicolon->comma) which are tools not available to other Ground-types in Ubers. Its immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes prevent it from becoming worn down as it functions as a pivot. Although these traits are worthwhile, Landorus-T is in competition with Primal Groudon to some extent,(AC) as Primal Groudon is slightly stronger, more bulky, checks a larger portion of the metagame and is immune to burns. Furthermore,(AC) what Landorus-T does check it does not always check well in a defensive manner, as it is highly susceptible to burns and lacks an instant recovery move. It is also quite frail on the special side, taking significant damage from unboosted special attacks such as Moonblast, Draco Meteor, or Judgment.(imo specify who's attacks, e.g. Xerneas's Moonblast)


[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Stone Edge
move 3: U-turn
move 4: Explosion
item: Choice Scarf
ability: Intimidate
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
nature: Adamant


[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Earthquake is the strongest move Landorus-T has to consistently dish out damage and trumps a variety of relevant targets. Stone Edge hits much of what Earthquake does not, such as Ho-Oh, offensive Yveltal, Rayquaza, and Shaymin-S while also being able to finish off Lugia or Giratina-O. U-turn prevents Landorus-T from giving free turns to opposing teams, eases prediction, and allows it to function better as a pivot. Explosion is a great last ditch method of dealing damage which keepswhile maintaining momentum and preventings the opponent from being able to Defog. Superpower can be used to nailhit threats such as Extreme Killer Arceus, Ferrothorn, and Darkrai harder than Earthquake, but it is typically a poor move to be locked into.


Set Details
========

252 Attack EVs with an Adamant nature are used to make Landorus-T hit as hard as possible and always 2HKOs standard defensive Primal Groudon. 252 Speed EVs give Landorus-T the raw Speed for the Choice Scarf to boost, granting Landorus-T the ability to outspeed(no hyphen) Mega Mewtwo Y and up to Choice Scarf base 90 Speed Pokemon that don't run a Speed-boosting(hyphen) nature. The remaining 4 EVs are used to slightly raise the Defense stat.(I don't see the point in mentioning the last 4 defense evs unless they do actually avoid something) A Choice Scarf gives Landorus-T the ability to revenge kill a variety of foes it would otherwise get outsped(no hyphen) by, such as Darkrai, Mega Gengar, Xerneas, Mewtwo, and Arceus formes.


Usage Tips
========

The combination of Intimidate and U-turn allows Landorus-T to function as a pivot;(semicolon) however,(AC) because Landorus-T has no instant or passive recovery,(AC) it can only be used a few times as such. This set is somewhat unexpected for opponents, so spamming fast U-turn early in the game is a good way to give away the set. You can play minimally until a situation where the opponent intends to stay in thinking they will move first; this is how you can surprise them. Even though Earthquake has many targets in the Ubers tier, virtually all teams pack one or severalmore Ground-immuneities Pokemon. In the situation of an eventual switch into a Ground-immune(hyphen) target by your opponent, you will want to U-turn or, alternatively, Stone Edge if their Ground-immuneity Pokemon can be taken down by it. Make sure your team can accommodate giving the opponent a free turn with a Ground-immune(hyphen) Pokemon before deciding to revenge kill with Earthquake. If you cannot, then do not attempt to KO a foe with Earthquake.


Team Options
========

Darkrai is an effective teammate that can be easier to get into play due to Landorus-T's U-turn. Furthermore,(AC) it is great at threatening stall, a playstyle that this set is unable to break on its own. Xerneas benefits from the offensive check to Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh that Landorus-T provides. Mega Gengar, like Darkrai, is easier to get into play thanks to U-turn and is able to threaten several of the bulky Pokemon that wall this set. Ghost Arceus-Ghost when combined withalongside Landorus-T can provide a sufficient offensive check to Extreme Killer(space) Arceus,(RC) while Ghost Arceus-Ghost benefits from the additional check to Ho-Oh. Dark Arceus-Dark can function as a stallbreaker and threaten Pokemon such as Giratina-O and Lugia that annoy Landorus-T. Primal Kyogre can further lay on the pressure against Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh,(RC) while also being able to blast through threats that specialize in physical bulk. Yveltal can threaten Ghost Arceus-Ghost, Giratina-O, and Lugia effectively, three big threats for Landorus-T. Rock Arceus-Rock secures issues against Ho-Oh and Mega Salamence and also appreciates the immunity to Ground-type moves that Landorus-T providesLandorus-T's Ground immunity.



[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

A Double Dance set with a Life Orb and a Jolly nature has the strength and Speed to break down an array of relevant threats;(semicolon) however,(AC) such a set is in steep competition with Ground Arceus-Ground. A defensive Stealth Rock set is better at switching into strong physical attacks, but lacks the ability to pivot as fluidly and isn't exceptionally good at breaking anything. Sleep Talk can be used on the Choice Scarf set to allow Landorus-T to switch into Darkrai's Dark Void, but it has little other use and isn't the best thing to be switching into Darkrai in the first place.



Checks and Counters
===================

**Giratina Formes**: Giratina-O is immune to Earthquake, Explosion, and Superpower, and takes very little from Stone Edge and U-turn. In return,(AC) it can nukeheavily damage Landorus-T with Draco Meteor or burn it with Will-O-Wisp. Giratina-A is so bulky that despite taking neutral damage from Earthquake it is still able to effectively wall Landorus-T.

**Support Arceus**: Support Arceus formes such as Water, Ghost, Fairy, and Grass are bulky enough to wall Landorus-T.

**Bronzong and Skarmory**: Both Bronzong and Skarmory are immune to Landorus-T's STAB moveEarthquake and take very little from any of its convergecoverage options. In return they can Toxic Landorus-T, set hazards, or whittle it down with offensive moves.

**Lugia**: Lugia is immune to Earthquake,(RC) and,(AC) despite its weakness to Rock, doesn't take significant damage from Stone Edge. In return,(AC) Lugia can smack Landorus-T with Ice Beam or poison it with Toxic.

**Mega Sableye**: Mega Sableye can burn Landorus-T with Will-O-Wisp, smack it around with Foul Play, and recover away Earthquake damage.

**Ferrothorn**: Although Ferrothorn fears Superpower to some extent, it can Leech Seed Landorus-T and set up(space) Spikes.

**Primal Kyogre**: Primal Kyogre has enough bulk to stomach one of Landorus-T's Earthquakes and can cleanly KO it with strong Water-type moves or Ice Beam.

**Cloyster**: Cloyster can OHKO Landorus-T with Icicle Spear and has plenty of physical bulk to survive Earthquake.

**Ice Arceus-Ice**: Although it is hit hard by Superpower or Stone Edge, Ice Arceus-Ice is rather bulky and can OHKO Landorus-T.

 

[Lumari]

TBB: Add / Fix Remove (Comments)
TDP: add (Capitalize / Fix) remove (comments); (AC=add comma; RC=remove comma; SC=semicolon)
GP 1/2
also unbold all headings please

amcheck with additions

[OVERVIEW]

Landorus-T's Ground immunity and powerful Earthquake allows allow it to checks a variety of threats in Ubers, (AC) including Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, Swords Dance Arceus, Klefki, and Mega Blaziken. Its ability Intimidate has good utility, allowing Landorus-T to pivot and simulate more physical bulk than it actually has. The interesting Ground / Flying typing makes it immune to Ground and Electric attacks (RC; as a note to TBB too, don't bifurcate sentences with a comma unless you add another subject. E.g. "I packed my bag, and went to school" is wrong, whereas both "I packed my bag and went to school" and "I packed my bag, and I went to school" are correct) but leaves it with an exploitable weakness to Ice. A strong great base 145 Attack gives Landorus-T the brute strength to threaten its foes, and a base 91 Speed sits just above the common base 90 Speed benchmark. Landorus-T has a solid physical movepool to play around with, including moves such as Explosion and U-turn,(semicolon->comma) which are (optional) tools not available to other Ground-types in Ubers. Its immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes prevents it from becoming worn down as it functions as a pivot pivots around. Although these traits are worthwhile, Landorus-T is in competition with Primal Groudon to some extent,(AC) as Primal Groudon which is slightly stronger, more bulky has better bulk, (or "is more bulky" or change the comma to "and", but currently it's a parallelism error; make a list of all items and you'll see they're not equivalent) checks a larger portion of the metagame, (AC) and is immune to burns. Furthermore,(AC) what Landorus-T does check, (AC) it does not always check well in a defensive manner, as it is highly susceptible to burns and lacks an instant recovery move. It is also quite specially frail on the special side, taking significant damage from unboosted special attacks such as Moonblast, Draco Meteor, or and Judgment.(imo specify whose attacks, e.g. Xerneas's Moonblast)


[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Stone Edge
move 3: U-turn
move 4: Explosion
item: Choice Scarf
ability: Intimidate
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
nature: Adamant


[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Earthquake is the strongest move Landorus-T has to consistently dish out damage and trumps a variety of relevant targets. Stone Edge hits much of what Earthquake does not, such as Ho-Oh, offensive Yveltal, Rayquaza, and Shaymin-S while also being able to finish off Lugia or Giratina-O. U-turn prevents Landorus-T from giving free turns to opposing teams, eases prediction, and allows it to function better as a pivot. Explosion is a great last-ditch (add hyphen) method of dealing damage which keepswhile maintaining momentum and preventings the opponent foe from being able to use Defog. Superpower can be used to nailhit threats such as Extreme Killer Arceus, Ferrothorn, and Darkrai harder than Earthquake, but it is typically a poor move to be locked into.


Set Details
========

252 Attack EVs with an Adamant nature are used to make Landorus-T hit as hard as possible and always 2HKOs 2HKO standard defensive Primal Groudon. 252 Speed EVs give Landorus-T the raw Speed for the Choice Scarf to boost, granting Landorus-T it the ability to outspeed(no hyphen) Mega Mewtwo Y and everything up to Choice Scarf base 90 Speed Pokemon that don't run a Speed-boosting(hyphen) nature. The remaining 4 EVs are used to slightly raise the Defense stat.(I don't see the point in mentioning the last 4 defense evs unless they do actually avoid something) (agreed) A Choice Scarf gives Landorus-T the ability to revenge kill a variety of foes it would otherwise get outsped(no hyphen) by, such as Darkrai, Mega Gengar, Xerneas, Mewtwo, and Arceus formes.


Usage Tips
========

The combination of Intimidate and U-turn allows Landorus-T to function as a pivot;(semicolon) however,(AC) because Landorus-T has no instant or passive recovery,(AC) it can only be used a few times as such. This set is somewhat unexpected for opponents, so spamming fast U-turns early in the game is a good way to give away the set. You can play minimally until a situation where the opponent intends to stay in thinking they will move first; this is how you can surprise them. Even though Earthquake has many targets in the Ubers tier, virtually all teams pack one or severalmore Ground-immuneities Pokemon. In the situation of an eventual switch into a Ground-immune(hyphen) target by your opponent, you will want to use U-turn or, alternatively, Stone Edge, (AC) if their Ground-immuneity Pokemon can be taken down by it. Make sure your team can accommodate giving the opponent a free turn with a Ground-immune(hyphen) Pokemon before deciding to revenge kill with Earthquake. If you cannot, then do not attempt to KO a foe with Earthquake.


Team Options
========

Darkrai is an effective teammate that can be easier to get into play due to Landorus-T's U-turn. Furthermore,(AC) it is great at threatening stall, a playstyle that this set is unable to break on its own. Xerneas benefits from the offensive check to Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh that Landorus-T provides. Mega Gengar, like Darkrai, is easier to get into play thanks to U-turn and is able to threaten several of the bulky Pokemon that wall this set. Ghost Arceus-Ghost when combined withalongside Landorus-T can provide a sufficient offensive check to Extreme Killer(space) Arceus,(RC) while Ghost Arceus-Ghost benefits from the additional check to Ho-Oh. Dark Arceus-Dark can function as a stallbreaker and threaten Pokemon such as Giratina-O and Lugia that annoy Landorus-T. Primal Kyogre can further lay on the pressure against Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh,(RC) while also being able to blast through threats that specialize in physical bulk. Yveltal can threaten Ghost Arceus-Ghost, Giratina-O, and Lugia effectively, three big threats for Landorus-T. Rock Arceus-Rock secures issues against Ho-Oh and Mega Salamence and also appreciates the immunity to Ground-type moves that Landorus-T providesLandorus-T's Ground immunity.



[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

A Double Dance set with a Life Orb and a Jolly nature has the strength and Speed to break down an array of relevant threats;(semicolon) however,(AC) such a set is in steep competition with Ground Arceus-Ground. A defensive Stealth Rock set is better at switching into strong physical attacks, but it lacks the ability to pivot as fluidly and isn't exceptionally good at breaking anything. Sleep Talk can be used on the Choice Scarf set to allow Landorus-T to switch into Darkrai's Dark Void, but it has little other use and Landorus-T isn't the best thing Pokemon to be switching into Darkrai in the first place.



Checks and Counters
===================

**Giratina Formes**: Giratina-O is immune to Earthquake, Explosion, and Superpower (RC) and takes very little from Stone Edge and U-turn. In return,(AC) it can nukeheavily damage (or "destroy" or something, but "nuke" is kinda outlawed because too many people were using it so it got obnoxious) Landorus-T with Draco Meteor or burn it with Will-O-Wisp. Giratina-A is so bulky that, (AC) despite taking neutral damage from Earthquake, (AC) it is still able to effectively wall Landorus-T.

**Support Arceus**: Support Arceus formes such as Water, Ghost, Fairy, and Grass are bulky enough to wall Landorus-T.

**Bronzong and Skarmory**: Both Bronzong and Skarmory are immune to Landorus-T's STAB moveEarthquake and take very little from any of its convergecoverage options. In return, (AC) they can Toxic Landorus-T, set entry hazards, or whittle it down with offensive moves.

**Lugia**: Lugia is immune to Earthquake,(RC) and,(AC) despite its weakness to Rock, doesn't take significant damage from Stone Edge. In return,(AC) Lugia can smack Landorus-T with Ice Beam or poison it with Toxic.

**Mega Sableye**: Mega Sableye can burn Landorus-T with Will-O-Wisp, smack it around with Foul Play, and recover away Earthquake damage.

**Ferrothorn**: Although Ferrothorn fears Superpower to some extent, it can Leech Seed Landorus-T and set up(space) Spikes.

**Primal Kyogre**: Primal Kyogre has enough bulk to stomach one of Landorus-T's Earthquakes and can cleanly KO it with strong Water-type moves or Ice Beam.

**Cloyster**: Cloyster can OHKO Landorus-T with Icicle Spear and has plenty of physical bulk to survive Earthquake.

**Ice Arceus-Ice**: Although it is hit hard by Superpower or Stone Edge, Ice Arceus-Ice is rather bulky and can OHKO Landorus-T.

good job TBB :>

 

[Minority]

Finished with first check.