Sig Items balancing

[Frosty]

WARNING: Any sign of thread de-railing will be responded with fire and warnings. Mostly fire.
​

So we are Balancing the Signature items. Some indeed are weak and some are very good, so they need to be addresses. This thread is only for already-existing signature items. We won't create any item in this specific thread (there will be a thread for it soon enough), so, keep it in the pants boys.

ALSO IMPORTANT: This is for "This is too good/weak" changes, not "I don't like this effect for flavor reasons" changes. If the change you wanna make doesn't affect balance or isn't grounded on it, then forget it please. For now at least.

Our parameter is:

Rare Candy/Everstone: Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank if their Base Rank Total is 23 or less. If the Pokemon's Base Rank Total is 17 or less, it increases by two (2) Ranks. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised. Increases the Pokemon's STAB Base Attack Power by two (2). If the Pokemon has two types, each STAB is increased by one (1) Base Attack Power instead.

In general, sig items should be as powerful as Rare Candy/Everstone is for everyday mons. For weak mons, we should aim at how rare candy does it for mons with low BRT. For mons that boost more than one pokemon, we should aim at raises that don't leave one of those mons behind or too ahead.

For balance purposes we will consider only FE mons (or really good NFEs like Dusclops)


The items we have are:

Big

• Dawn Stone-Increases the Base Attack Power of Fighting-type and Ghost-type attacks by two (2). Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.
• Fire Stone-The affected Pokemon enters battle with Flash Fire and / or Blaze activated. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.
• Ice Rock-The affected Pokemon enters battle with Snow Cloak activated and continuously activates Ice Body, granting two (2) HP per action regardless of weather. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.
• Leaf Stone-The affected Pokemon enters battle with Overgrow activated. Enhances Chlorophyll to triple (3x) the affected Pokemon's Speed when activated. Increases the Base Attack Power of all attacks with "Leaf" in their name by two (2). Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.
• Moon Stone-Increases the Base Attack Power of Normal and Psychic-type moves by two (2), and prevents damage from recoil on all moves. Moonlight will always heal for its highest possible HP value. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.
• Moss Rock-The affected Pokemon enters battle with Leaf Guard and Chlorophyll Activated, regardless of weather. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.
• ThunderStone-Increases the Base Attack Power of Electric-type recoil moves by two (2). Enhances Lightningrod to raise Special Attack by two (2) stages (adjusting the natural stage) when activated. Continuously activates Volt Absorb, granting two (2) HP per action. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.
• Shiny Stone-Increases the Base Accuracy of all moves used by the affected Pokemon by ten (10). Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.
• Sun Stone-The affected Pokemon enters battle with Chlorophyll, Solar Power, and Leaf Guard activated, regardless of weather. Solar Power does not damage the Pokemon unless Sunny weather is on the field. Leaf Guard does not prevent sleep from Rest unless Sunny weather is on the field. Solar Beam has no charge and its full power in all weathers. Morning Sun, Synthesis, and Moonlight are at their full power, regardless of weather. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.
• Water Stone-The affected Pokemon enters battle with Torrent activated. Hydration, and / or Swift Swim are also activated, regardless of weather. Continuously activates Rain Dish and Water Absorb regardless of weather, granting one (1) HP per action [In Rain, Rain Dish will increase to its normal 2 HP/action). Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.
• Dragon Scale-Increases the Pokemon's Attack and Special Attack by one (1) rank each. Increases the critical hit damage with Sniper from +5 to +7 on single attacks, +3 to +5 on two-hit attacks, and +2 to +3 on multi-hit attacks.
• Dubious Disc-Doubles (x2) the stage-boost of the Download ability.
• Electirizer-This Pokemon is immune to Electric-type attacks after the effects of abilities. Increases the Pokemon's Attack and Special Attack by one (1) rank each.
• Fairy Tech-Causes any stat-reducing secondary effect of Fairy-type attacks to always activate. Increases the Effect Chance of other secondary effects from Fairy-type attacks by ten (10) percentage points (e.g. 30% Effect Chance increases to 40% Effect Chance). Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) Rank. If the highest true base stat is tied, each Rank is raised.
• Link Cable-Increases the Pokemon's two (2) highest true base stats (e.g. 130 Atk, 85 SpD) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) rank each. If the true base stat values are equal, each Rank is raised.
• Soothe Bell-Increases the Pokemon's two (2) highest true base stats (e.g. 130 Atk, 85 SpD) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) rank each. If the true base stat values are equal, each Rank is raised.
• Full Incense-Causes the Pokemon to always move last within its priority bracket, regardless of Speed. The Pokemon's attacks will never miss an opponent and opponents' attacks will never miss the Pokemon. OHKO moves have normal accuracy when used with or against a Pokemon with this item. When the Pokemon uses Rest they will gain 15 HP per action.
• Lax Incense-Removes recoil on Struggle. Increases the return damage on Counter and Mirror Coat to 1.75x. Increases Defense and Special Defense Ranks by one (1) each.
• Luck Incense-The Pokemon's owner gains one (1) additional Currency Counter for each battle the Pokemon participates in. Can be used in Training battles. Increases Special Attack by one (1) Rank.
• Odd Incense-The Pokemon's team-wide barrier moves (Reflect/Light Screen/Quick Guard/Safeguard/Wide Guard) have an additional +1 priority from their usual level. Increases Special Attack and Special Defense Ranks by one (1) each.
• Pure Incense-Halves the rate of damage increase on Toxic (e.g. it becomes 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3 over 6 rounds instead of 1,2,3,4,5,6) and increases the rate of decay on Freeze (0,0,1 instead of 0,1,2), Sleep (0,1,1 instead of 1,1,2) and paralysis (25,15,5,0 or 20,10,0 instead of 25,20,15,10,5,0). Reduces the damage of Poison and Burn to one (1) DPA. Increases the Pokemon's two (2) highest true base stats (e.g. 130 Atk, 85 SpD) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) rank each. If the true base stat values are equal, each Rank is raised.
• Rock Incense-Alters Rattled to boost Special Defense when activated, and activates it automatically at the end of each round. Increases Attack and Defense by one (1) Rank each.
• Rose Incense-Confers Leaf Guard if not present, Leaf Guard is always active, regardless of weather. Increases Special Attack and Special Defense by one (1) Rank Each.
• Sea Incense-Enhances Sap Sipper to increase Attack by two (2) stages (adjusting the natural stage) when activated. Increases Defense and Special Defense by one (1) Rank.
• Wave Incense-Enters battle with Swift Swim activated, regardless of weather. Continuously activates Water Absorb, granting one (1) HP per action. Increases Special Attack and Special Defense by one (1) Rank each.
• Lucky Punch-Guarantees all attacks score a critical hit. Increases Attack Rank by one (1).
• Magmarizer-This Pokemon is immune to Fire-type attacks after the effects of abilities. Increases the Pokemon's Attack and Special Attack by one (1) rank each.
• Oval Stone-Increases the Pokemon's Attack and Defense one (1) rank each.
• Prism Scale-Increases the Pokemon's Defense by one (1) rank and increases the Base Attack Power reduction of the Marvel Scale ability to three (3) BAP.
• Protector-Reduces the Base Attack Power of attacks used against the Pokemon by two (2).
• Reaper Cloth-Raises the Energy cost of all incoming attacks by two (2) and gives the Pokemon the Levitate ability.
• Up-Grade-Increases the Pokemon's Special Attack by one (1) rank. Increases the duration of Trace's effect to nine (9) actions.
• Armor Fossil-Immune to damage from ball and bomb attacks. (Full List: Acid Spray, Aura Sphere, Barrage, Bullet Seed, Egg Bomb, Electro Ball, Energy Ball, Focus Blast, Gyro Ball, Ice Ball, Magnet Bomb, Mist Ball, Mud Bomb, Octazooka, Rock Wrecker, Seed Bomb, Shadow Ball, Sludge Bomb, Weather Ball, and Zap Cannon.) Increases Attack by one (1) Rank.
• Claw Fossil-Swift Swim is activated, regardless of Weather. Increases the Base Attack Power of Contact Attacks by one (1) BAP. Increases Special Defense by one (1) Rank.
• Cover Fossil-Swift Swim is activated, regardless of Weather. Increases Attack by one (1) Rank.
• Dome Fossil-Swift Swim is activated, regardless of Weather. Weak Armor does not lower Defense when activated. Increases Defense by one (1) Rank.
• Helix Fossil - Swift Swim is activated, regardless of Weather. Weak Armor does not lower Defense when activated. Increases Attack by one (1) Rank.
• Jaw Fossil- Increases the Base Attack Power of non-contact attacks by one (1) BAP. Increases Special Defense by one (1) Rank.
• Old Amber-Raises the Energy Cost of all incoming attacks by two (2). Increases Attack by one (1) Rank.
• Plume Fossil-Defeatist Rank drops are ignored. Increases Defense by one (1) Rank.
• Root Fossil-Enhances Storm Drain to increase Special Attack by two (2) stages (adjusting the natural stage) when activated. Reduces the Energy Cost of HP Draining Attacks / Recovery Moves by one (1). Increases Attack by one (1) Rank.
• Sail Fossil-Makes Snow Warning and Hail last an unlimited amount of time, until the weather is changed. Increases Attack by one (1) Rank.
• Skull Fossil-Sheer Force becomes Passive, and no longer removes the secondary effects from attacks. Increases Defense by one (1) Rank.
• Charged Stone-The Pokemon is under a constant Magnet Rise effect. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk, 85 SpD) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) rank each.
• Solar Ray-The Pokemon's Magic Bounce makes the Pokemon immune to the negative effects (ex. loss of ability, evasion drop, perish counter) of all Status category moves not initiated by the user or an ally (ex. Skill Swap, Gravity, Perish Song). Morning Sun will always heal for its highest possible HP value. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk, 85 SpD) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) rank each.
• Lunar Ray-If Synchronize is activated by a non-damaging attack, the Pokemon is healed of that attack's inflicted status. Moonlight will always heal for its highest possible HP value. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk, 85 SpD) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) rank each.
• Kings Rock- All attacks used by the Pokemon that connect have a 10% chance to cause the opponent to flinch. Multi-hit moves have as many chances to flinch as hits made successfully. If held by Poliwhirl, Politoed, Slowpoke, or Slowking, it increases the Pokemon's Special Attack by one (1) rank.

Let's do this step-by-step:

1) Remove the items deemed "just right". Only the items there is no doubt about.
2) Separate the ones deemed "too good".
3) Separate the ones deemed "too weak". The items that remain after we separate the "too good"s and the "too weak"s will join the list of "just right" items.
4) Work with the "too good" list
5) Work with the "too weak" list
6) ???
7) Profit!


LEMME START

I feel we shouldn't worry with:
Deep sea scale
deep sea tooth
dragon scale
light ball
Odd Incense
Magmarizer
Metal Powder
Quick Powder
Protector
Sachet
Whipped Dream
Odd Keystone

There may be others, but those I am sure. The others I am not. Still I wanna hear/read your opinions, k? So fire away!

 

[deadfox081]

I'd have to say I agree mostly with Frosty's list but I wouldn't be so quick to say Odd Incense is okay as is. It might if anything be a little too powerful, especially given how much better it is than the other incenses. However I would add both Stick and Thick Club to the a-okay list.

Basically:
-Odd Incense
+Stick
+Thick Club

 

[Mowtom]

In addition to what deadfox said, magmarizer, electrizer, and protector feel kinda weak to me. Protector seems like I'd always rather put a Focus Band on Rhyperior, and the izers' immunity abilities don't seem to have much/any effect. Seriously, Electivire is already immune to Electric. And the offense boost is the same as a bunch of items not on Frosty's list, so...

 

[Its_A_Random]

Dusk Stone should be added to the okay list imo, because is perfectly fine and usable on all Pokémon who get it bar Honchkrow and that is only because Honchkrow has the Super Luck + Scope Lens combo to abuse... >_>

 

[Gerard]

When was Dawn stone changed? I remember it being +1 SpA to Gallade and +1 Atk to Froslass.

 

[Its_A_Random]

When was Dawn stone changed? I remember it being +1 SpA to Gallade and +1 Atk to Froslass.

It was the result of a moderator-approved buff two and a half months ago.

 

[Gerard]

Shiny Stone is bad. Like, REALLY BAD. No pokemon that can use would ever use it. Togekiss had Scope Lens, Cinccino has Kings's Rock, Roserade has Rose Incense, and Florges doesn't even have any <90 Acc moves other than Toxic and Swagger. I mean, all these items have widely different effects between each other so either we make Shiny Stone an interesting alternative to all of them or we just simply make it a good item on Florges.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Recommend moving it in line with the others with florges given prime consideration. The others will use the aforementioned items ninety percent of the time regardless of shiny stone

 

[Frosty]

Yeah. The other mons have better items because they are lucky due to good ability-item interactions, not because shiny stone sucks (and it does suck, mind you). Florges doesn't have other items, so it will probably be the main target of any shiny stone changes, since the others will keep not using it, unless we break it, which isn't my intention.

Updated list:

Deep sea scale
deep sea tooth
dragon scale
light ball
Metal Powder
Quick Powder
Sachet
Whipped Dream
Odd Keystone
Stick
Thick Club
Dusk Stone


This will continue until Saturday Night. After that, we will move onto phase 2.

 

[Ragnarokalex]

i know id like to mirror Mowtom in that Elecirizer needs to be re-evaluated (I am not as familiar with magmorter to know if it's item is more helpful to it or not).
It is mostly just an inferior expert belt, since Electivire is spending 90% of its time hitting SE anyways, its mostly a +1.5 vs +2 buff. The electric immunity is completely underwhelming, the only scenario I can see it actually having any use is if you are facing something that has skill swapped your abilities away, and then soaked it, AND for some reason would rather be using electric moves over grass ones. And I feel that electivire can afford to leave that avenue open to his opponents in order to gain a more interesting ability on its sig item. Plus its boring, if I am going to use a boring item, I'll go with something generic that will at least give me a better numbers advantage.

Pretty much Electirizer needs work, not a numbers buff, because i believe that the +att and Spatt is fine, but having a secondary effect that is a bit more interesting. It doesn't need to be getting some huge game changing ability tacked on there, but at least something relatively interesting would improve the item out of obscurity.

My thoughts anyway

 

[Frosty]

Uh. This doesn't add much, but a heads up: do notice that Electirizer was never on the list. Magmarizer was, but electirizer wasn't.

 

[Ragnarokalex]

oh right, im dumb. misread the OP @.@

 

[Geodude6]

I feel like Lucky Punch is OK. It's powerful but it kind of has to be to make Chansey something other than a punching bag, which, as Ferrothorn has taught us, doesn't work in ASB. There is one change I would like to see on it though: make Blissey able to use it. Otherwise Blissey is outclassed by its pre-evolution, which is not really something we want (at least I don't think so). At least with Porygon2/Z and with Dusclops/Noir the pre-evolutions are better at tanking but the evolution hits harder. Letting Blissey use Lucky Punch will allow it to hit slightly harder than Chansey due to having an extra SpA rank while at the same time letting Chansey be an OK tank with Eviolite.

And before people compare this to the Light Ball Raichu suggestion from a while ago, note that Raichu already has a good signature item in Thunderstone, which grants it +1 to both its offensive stats, as well as giving +2 BAP to its signature move. Blissey has Luck Incense, which grants... +1 SpA and +1 CC at the end of the battle. Unless you're in a gym match, in which case you get one less CC at the end of the match. Whee.

 

[Frosty]

I dunno if that Lucky Punch impression is the impression of the majority TBH. I have mixed feelings towards Lucky Punch and your proposal. But not the time to discuss that yet.

On other news I added King Rock to the list. Only the non-slashed part is up for changes btw.

30h before next step. Current list of items I will remove from the OP:

Deep sea scale
deep sea tooth
dragon scale
light ball
Metal Powder
Quick Powder
Sachet
Whipped Dream
Odd Keystone
Stick
Thick Club
Dusk Stone

 

[Geodude6]

We could probably add Fire Stone, Thunder Stone, and Moon Stone to the list of OK items. Fire Stone is basically Rare Candy for all of its users, who all have either Flash Fire or Blaze. Thunderstone is good on Raichu and Eelektross because in addition to a stat boost it boosts their main physical STAB (Volt Tackle and Wild Charge respectively). It's kind of bad on Jolteon but Jolteon's bad anyway and nothing we do to its sig item will make it not bad. Moon Stone's recent buff made it viable on Musharna and it was already good on Wigglytuff and Delcatty. The Nidos and Clefable don't really use it but that's because they have good ability-item interactions and not because Moon Stone is bad.

 

[Frosty]

Fire Stone: The problem is that it acts like a slightly inferior Rare Candy in the sense that, while with Rare Candy it would be possible to have its boost + Flash Fire, with Fire Stone you get only flash fire and that is it. A simple tweak (like putting blaze/flash fire at +3 instead of +2?) fixes it, but IMO being always worse than rare candy isn't good. I might be the minority though and I won't be impressed if this is removed from the list at stage three.

Thunder Stone: I tried once Thunder Stone Eelektross and I was severely underwhelmed. 99% of the Eelektrosses are Special (like they should be), so even with Thunder Stone, Thunderbolt is usually a better option (9bap without recoil vs 12bap with 25% recoil). Rare Candy on Eelektross would at least boost all electric moves by 2 bap and not only wild charge (which is like: the electric move I see Eelektross using the least). With Raichu is also a similar conclusion: Rare Candy would give the same boost and at least boost all electric moves by 2 and not only Wild Charge (which sucks on raichu btw). More powerful lightning rod (and this goes for storm drain and co too) means squat unless you wanna use it on raids, since nobody uses an electric move with a lightning rod mon out. Finally Jolteon is..eh. At least it gets leftovers + 1SpA. I would argue it receives the best out of it. It still sucks though so that is besides the point.

Moon Stone: See above what I said about Shiny Stone. Nidoking, Nidoqueen and Clefable have better items so they are ignored. Delcatty and Wigglytuff probably get good enough boosts (actualy I would argue wigglytuff gets the short end of the stick, since with Rare Candy it would get +2SpA instead of +1 and its Fairy moves would be boosted, which is like the entire reason Wigglytuff is used). But I feel Moon Stone Musharna is a little too good. 120/1/3/6/3/slow with 35hp moonlights (that last part is my main problem) is a bit too good imo. At least when Rare Candy would stop at 120/1/3/6/3/slow with +2 to psychic without those obese moonlights .-.. But this is also one I won't be terribly impressed (although I will be more impressed here than at fire stone) if this is deemed OK on stage 3.



Thunder Stone I really wanna move forward. The other two (mostly fire stone)...eh, I may be convinced otherwise.

 

[Frosty]

These items were removed from the OP:

Deep sea scale
deep sea tooth
dragon scale
light ball
Metal Powder
Quick Powder
Sachet
Whipped Dream
Odd Keystone
Stick
Thick Club
Dusk Stone


Now for Phase 2: Separate the items deemed "too good". For this stage, all claims must be backed up with reasoning. If the reasoning is sound I will include on the list.

Lemme start:
- Moon Stone: On Musharna it is too good. The extra SpA + extra BAP for psychic and normal moves already give the boosts equivalent to what rare candy would give. The huge 35hp moonlight is kinda silly and unnecessary as Musharna have good stats, good movepool and is fat (120hp ._.) so it surely as hell doesn't need those huge 35hp recovery. IMO, we can either axe the huge recovery or maybe replace it with extra bap for fairy moves (boosting Wigglytuff, which could use a boost). Either way, I find Moon Stone too good on Musharna (and ok on the others and maybe not so good on wigglytuff)
- Rock Incense: Uh. Many boosts. I don't see the need for activating rattled every round. It could activate only once. TBH I am not set on this as Sudowoodo is Sudowoodo. But still seems like a lot IMO.
- Rose Incense: I love Roserade to pieces, but it doesn't need +SpA/SpD AND total immunity to status. Sure it does have Natural Cure, so it isn't a huge step up. But still, immunity to temporary status and to Sleep/Freeze/Paralysis seems like a tad too much. A boost to Natural Cure would suffice.



Yes only three. Partly because most items are iffy, partly because I don't remember all stone mons and partly because I want people to add to this.

 

[Frosty]

uh...just so we are clear, I will wait 72h on this if no discussion here. I saw discussion on IRC (which is why I am giving "only" 72h), but I need people to post opinions here.

 

[Leethoof]

Moon Stone: As p much the only user of musharna, i support +2 fairy bap and -35 hp moonlight, but (as an semi-related issue) we really need to resolve a way for moonlight to actually heal 35 hp without weird nighttime outdoor arenas. Otherwise that effect of the move is going to be /never/ used without tailor-made flufftastic arenas.
Rock Incense: I think having rattled activate every round would be fine, if it went back to boosting speed. It would give sudowoodo another niche (on top of grass coverage) over the other dozen physical rocks of being fast.
Rose Incense: I think at one point or maybe right now, we had some sort of item that would remove all status at the end of the round, essentially a natural cure boost. Maybe this is an appropriate nerf?

As a side note, policy changes usually take place mid-tournament. This discussion has a huge effect on DYAE, so I recommend we forgo that usual process and lock sig items at their old stats for DYAE, if changes are implemented before the end of the tourney. (and to also remove any bias or anything in discussion)

 

[deadfox081]

I pretty much agree with those listed being a touch too powerful. Moon Stone needs to be better balanced among all mons who can use it, not just super great for Musharna and very good for Delcatty. Wigglytuff would appreciate it doing something useful for it for sure while as spoken about I don't think the Nido's or Clefairy would use it regardless when Life Orb exists. Its current incarnation is just clearly too good on Musharna though and to an extent too good for Delcatty (not that it's overpowering the meta or anything). So I guess Moon Stone is a funny one where it's either too powerful or not powerful enough depending on which mon is using it.

Rock and Rose Incense I'm less concerned with, Leethoof's proposed Rose Incense change would be my preferred, and I'll reserve any judgement on Rock due to the non issue of sudowoodo in general/

I would however like to raise Odd Incense as potentially too powerful. Since we are basically looking to balance all of these things to Rare Candy (imo) it's clearly more powerful on Mime. Bold is obviously the go to Mime nature due to the increase in overall bulk but this nature choice forces one to give up both the power of Modest and the speed of Timid. Odd Incense however completely removes the need to go Modest by giving a Special Attack boost that Rare Candy wouldn't (which is also a +1.5 to the Psychic and Fairy special STAB attacks aka the only ones Mime uses over the +1 to these moves RC would give). Then the speed is offset with added priority to Reflect/Light Screen, further increasing Mime's bulk. I understand the two highest base stat raises is mimicing Link Cable/Soothe Bell but they do not give any additional effects. This is obviously something we may deal with when we get to those but in the mean time we need to control the additional effects we are giving to their copy items. tl;dr, add Odd Incense to the too good list

 

[Gerard]

Moon Stone. I think that raising Fairy, Psychic & Normal Attacks instead of 35 Hp Moonlight. If you wanna buff Wiggly maybe make Cute Charm activation rate raise to 50%? Or Activates Competitive once? (this would let Wiggly stay strong even if it's were knocked off and makes up for losing on 6 SpA.

I agree with Rattled raising SpD each turn being rather convoluted.

Rose Incense would better be activating Natural Cure every round.

Odd Incense can survive without priority screens. If you wish to still have Screens in some way maybe make them last 7 actions instead of 6?

 

[Frosty]

Items too good:
- Moon Stone
- Rose Incense
- Rock Incense
- Odd Incense


Alright, now for Part 3. Items deemed too weak.

...this might take a while.

Let me start:

• Dawn Stone - I am not strong on this, but the boost to fighting moves seems just a slap in Froslass's face. Froslass isn't the best mon ever and Wake-up Slap isn't a viable move on it. I would suggest exchanging fighting with psychic, as it would make more sense (and I think would make Gallade less strong, as its fighting main stab being boosted along with one of its most synergic coverage may be considered too good). But tbh, this isn't a change strongly needed to restore some balance.
  
• Fire Stone - All Fire Stone users are pure fire, so it acts 100% of the time like a worse rare candy, as rare candy would give the boost on top of the abilities, whereas Fire Stone's boost is not only ability-reliant, but also can't be stacked with those abilities. At least, for example, Leaf Stone boosts Simisage's strongest physical stab (leaf blade) by 2 bap. Dunno if it is enough, but it is something.
  
• Leaf Stone - The Chlorophyll mons don't like sun up much (fire go). More importantly, x3 instead of the usual x2 will only matter that much to Vileplume and Exeggutor (50 and 55 speed) and won't help the others outspeed stuff they wouldn't with x2. Perhaps boosting all moves with "leaf" on their names by 3bap instead of 2 and (maybe) allowing Petal Dance to be used without being locked on it? Or maybe boosting Petal moves as well. Or just screwing sun stone and activating Chlorophyll? Either way, it is underpowered for the mons which arguably need it the most.
• ThunderStone - copying from above: I tried once Thunder Stone Eelektross and I was severely underwhelmed. 99% of the Eelektrosses are Special (like they should be), so even with Thunder Stone, Thunderbolt is usually a better option (9bap without recoil vs 12bap with 25% recoil). Rare Candy on Eelektross would at least boost all electric moves by 2 bap and not only wild charge (which is like: the electric move I see Eelektross using the least). With Raichu is also a similar conclusion: Rare Candy would give the same boost and at least boost all electric moves by 2 and not only Wild Charge (which sucks on raichu btw). More powerful lightning rod (and this goes for storm drain and co too) means squat unless you wanna use it on raids, since nobody uses an electric move with a lightning rod mon out. Finally Jolteon is..eh. At least it gets leftovers + 1SpA. I would argue it receives the best out of it. It still sucks though so that is besides the point.
  
• Shiny Stone - Uh...extra accuracy? Cincinno's low acc moves need more than 10% acc (also its speed tier makes +spe more desirable). I suppose better Sleep Powder is lovely for Roserade, but Rose Incense is just so much better on it. Togekiss also prefers scope lens and if it didn't, the only reason for +10% acc is Air Slash, and I really doubt that is enough. Finally...which move Florges (the main if not only user of Shiny Stone) commonly uses that doesn't have perfect accuracy? Not to mention that boosting its SpD further is just mean. IMO it is a very shitty item that possibly needs to be completely rethought.
• Water Stone - Starmie and Cloyster get nothing from it (other than +1 SpA and +1 I-don't-need-more-def. Also Simipour has Fire Stone Syndrome with it.
  
• Dragon Scale - ...this is more food for thought. In theory if Kingdra would be elligble for Rare Candy, we would have it boost all stats (think Castform). But do we balance with that in mind? Or considering the average boost it gives? Because if we were to consider it, then yeah it is too weak. If not, then kingdra was just trolled and Dragon Scale is fine.
  
• Dubious Disc - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Seriously, this is ridiculous. best case scenario you get +2SpA instead of +1 SpA if the mon you are facing is good. Rare Candy would give you more than that. This gotta be completely redone.
  
• Electirizer - Electivire is already immune to Electric, so it could use a little something.
  
• Fairy Tech - So we boost Moonblast to always lower SpA (and then we ask: who the hell uses SpA VS a 6SpD mon in the first place?) and then a bunch of normal pixilate moves. Most of them too weak to use reliably (read: headbutt). Could use something here imo.
  
• Full Incense - In a world where Dynamic Punch is kinda widely distributed, this is a double-edged sword. And the extra hp on rest is iffy as leftovers gives the same extra hp every action. I am aware that snorlax is already a good mon blah blah blah, but rare candy would be infinitely better than this.
  
• Luck Incense - Uh... on training battles it is unfair to have an item that boosts SpA. On the rare serious battles, the less thing the player wants is +1CC (check the number of forfeits). I would rather work something else entirely. Perhaps boosts natural cure (would be used on water stone and rose incense too soo...)?
  
• Sea Incense - Nobody in their right mind would target a grass move on Azumarill. The sap sipper part could be reworked and the rank boosts is the exactly one that would be given by rare candy.
  
• Oval Stone - ...this is only for happiny? What a waste. Still, +1atk is hilarious.
  
• Prism Scale - so it basically increases defense by 1 stage and by a further stage (less than that) if milotic is statused? Well, with the removal of self-targetting, getting statused is harder than it looks, so I'd consider this underpowered.
  
• Reaper Cloth - If we compare this and Odd Keystone it seems that +def/spd = levitate. Which is doesn't. Extra energy usage is funky, but it never won me any battles (actually it may have once or twice, but that is besides the point). Seems severely underpowered. I mean, nobody uses earthquake on Dusknoir, dig neither and spikes...well dusknoir has rapid spin, so it probably won't be there for much time. Considering Dusknoir has a severe problem of lack of good stabs (best stab is shadow punch with 6bap), there are a gazillion effects that would be better on it than levitate. Even if you consider Dusknoir good (stat-wise and movepool-wise it is, even though sableye and banette are arguably better), something simple like +2bap on ghost moves and/or access to Phantom Force and/or Iron Fist or something like that would be much better than Levitate.
  
• Armor Fossil - OK so now Bastiodon can face Gengar and win. Seriously though, in a world where LOW KICK and EARTHQUAKE are things, I don't think removing bomb/ball moves is all that effective, as aura sphere and focus blast are usually accompanied by simpler moves to use. Also, doesn't bastiodon use primarily its special attack? It does have a sexy Special movepool.
  
• Cover Fossil - uh...activating swift swim on carracosta on a slap on its face. 54 speed is still too slow for anything. So you are actually just boosting attack.
  
• Dome Fossil - +Def on Kabutops is kinda "eh". Even +SpA would be better. Although +Atk is probably the best option to complement Swift Swim.
  
• Helix Fossil - WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU USE PHYSICAL ATTACKS WITH BASE 2 ATK OMASTAR. Seriously, Attack is like the only stat that I wouldn't boost here. Defense is the best stat, Special Defense is the weak point and Special Attack is the main stat used, so any of those would fit. Just not attack.
  
• Jaw Fossil - Which non-contact move does Tyrantrum use? I can only think of Stone Edge. And Head Smash completely outshadows it.
  
• Root Fossil - Cradily prefers to use Attack and Storm Drain/Sap Sipper/etc aren't abilities good to be boosted. Unless the boost is some automatic activation.
  
• Sail Fossil - Why extra attack -_-;. Kinda pointless.
  
• Kings Rock- ONE ENTIRE EXTRA ATTACK RANK. WHOOOHOOO. -_-. None of the mons affected by the extra spa have speed (at all) to use the flinch part. So the sig part could warrant a boost.

That should be all. Feel free to include and exclude stuff from this list. Just provide reasoning.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

dogfish and i agree that dragon scale should boost all of kingdra's stats because kingdra is really really bad

 

[Dogfish44]

Echoing, Kingdra got killed by fairies and less coverage than your average water mon.

Also, I'm biased, but Pure Incense is.... crap. It's on a mon who's already terrible, provides +1 SpA, +1 SpD (The former is passable, the latter is normally useless - would rather Rare Candy's +2 SpA), and provides the effect of Cleanse Tag, an item which is horrendous (Has anyone ever purchased one?), and has absolutely no synergy on a Pokémon who's notable moves include Heal Bell and Safeguard.

Finally, what are thoughts on Plume Fossil? Defeatist negation is nice, but the +1 Def has always felt.... meh? It's also inherently doomed to struggle when compared to Rare Candy -_-'

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

Also, I'm biased, but Pure Incense is.... crap. It's on a mon who's already terrible, provides +1 SpA, +1 SpD (The former is passable, the latter is normally useless - would rather Rare Candy's +2 SpA), and provides the effect of Cleanse Tag, an item which is horrendous (Has anyone ever purchased one?), and has absolutely no synergy on a Pokémon who's notable moves include Heal Bell and Safeguard.

ED has one for his Chimecho, and I am not liking it. x_x