Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[zaaya]

Drops imo:
Heatran - I mean this got an awful response last time. But Heatran just gets worn down too easily and
Megabro - Half the time you don't mega. You can try to call this a good thing by saying "Yeah, it's so flexible!" but then why not use another mega? The meta is too specially oriented for this guy - and the few physical attackers are dark types. IK you can recover off a knock off but what if the bisharp sword dances on you?
Celebi - Outclassed by mew unless you specifically want a keldeo counter. Quad weakness to bug hurts and grass typing doesn't really do much otherwise. But now that mew is in A maybe you can disagree. Like I said this is all my opinion.
Dragalge - Way too narrow of a niche. Do you really need TSpikes? Easily the best at that role but it seems way too slim. And since it doesn't have recovery, it gets whittle too easily so it doesn't really beat clef/alt.
Gallade - skill swap sucks. This guy has been overrated for far too long. I know medicham rose, but I'd rather use mega Chomp than this crap.
Kabutops - Worse than kingdra and the rankings should reflect that.
Pert - Takes up a mega slot.
Hawlucha - i've tried using this many a time but it's too underwhelming and frail.
Chesnaught - What? B-?? This thing is nowhere near that rank. The typing isn't that good even though it can sponge knock off since it can't even switch into weavile.
Lucario - I know it can go either setup but it's just too slow. If its Espeed were Stab then this would be a huge threat, but besides sponging knock off it doesn't do much. It really has a hard time setting up. But it does beat Clef Tran teams, so maybe it can stay.
Tentacruel - lol a spinner not called exca or starmie. It doesn't even have recovery! And if I wanted tspikes, which I don't, I'm using dragalge. No.
Mega blastoise - I actually like Blastoise, but it isn't C+ material.
Houndoom - What. Does. This. Do.
Hoopa C - It's like a worse chandelure and chandelure is bad. Like in UU it can run nasty plot and claim that but here it's only niche is in Trick Room or as a spinblocker (lol). And it loses to exca so rip. I think unrank it unless you can prove that it has a niche Hoopa-U doesn't outclass.
I mean I know some of these will be unpopular but tell me what you think.
(and I would add Clef to the list but then you would really kill me lol)

While Tentacruel is certainly not the best of mons, i disagree with it dropping. Access to rapid spin AND toxic spikes is what sets it apart from dragalge (albeit Drag has the offensive presence). With role compression being more of a b#tch now more than ever having rapid spin and toxic spikes while also being a solid clef/keld/(sometimes azu) switch in is great for bulky spikes stacking teams/balance. Acid Spray/ Scald/Knock off are great utility moves it has in its arsenal. B- rank imo is a very suitable place for tenta, but that's just my two piece :p

 

[Halcyon.]

Hoopa-C is probably one of the best stall breakers in the game tho, being able to avoid goth's trapping ability thanks to its typing, the ability to stall out Chansey, and SDef drop/high roll its way around Unaware Clef. All it really needs is something like SR Clef to guarantee rocks being set up vs Sab and then getting sab to about 60-70% before it can CM sweep. Niche, sure, but its still a very effective stall breaker and is fine where it is imo. You can also run Taunt CM if you want, tho I think Sub is better in general.

 

[thesecondbest]

Being 4x weak to all possible sab moves sucks. A shed shell hoopa u ala chimpact is probably better. Hoopa u can (probably) set up on sableye and can even go mixed, plus even if it doesn't go mixed you can still bluff that. Hoopa c is way too high. Like chandelier does all of what you just said and that sucks too. Drop hoopa c.

 

[Freeroamer]

Just stopping the hype everything down train here for a moment. Heatran's power was never to perform well against all threats in the top of the OU metagame. What heatran does best of any pokemon is hard-countering a group of great mons (e.g. talonflame, lati, ferro, clefable, zardy, venu) and serving as a great utility mon. Many pokemon such as altaria and zardx rely on a single coverage move to beat it (often eq) and it's been increasingly difficult to find a spot for earthquake on such mons. On bulkier teams it's never a free switch as a toxic/protect/switch will rack up 40% damage while getting two leftovers back. It's also the most reliable stealth rock setter in the OU tier right now with enough bulk to survive even focus blasts. That it's not a niche-worty pokemon can be disproven by the fact that heatran was one of the top 6 most picked pokemon in both SPL and the Smogon Tour which says a lot tbh. I've personally not used offensive heatran on a serious team so I wouldn't know too much about its strengths but its pivot set alone deserves a rank like A+.
Even though heatran will always struggle against ground types and certain coverage moves, the consistency of heatran should not be underestimated. Heatran is almost always an excellent choice for a balance team. And who has room for hp ground on clef anyway.

Whew a lot of misconceptions! EQ is hard to fit on Zard X yea but on Alt it's the most common coverage move so not sure what you mean there. It also need to be TauntTox to beat Refresh Altaria. Er out of those mons it gets Twaved and set up on by Clefable, Focus Blasted by Zard Y, Taunted by Talon unless it carries Stone Edge giving up a slot for 2 targets realistically, can be EQ'd by Lati(uncommon, Psyshock w/ rocks up also chips away handily) or Venu(v. rare but not unheard of, struggles to break defensive Leech Seed without Taunt of getting an early burn), ok it counters ferro but it still doesn't appreciate Spikes or being seeded and I don't usually add a mon to my team for the task of countering fucking Ferrothorn. ToxTect is literally Clef SpDef Talon Zard Y food so not sure why you bring that set up as a counter to the above mons? This set even gets overpowered by Zard X assuming the Zard user applies correct pressure to weaken the Heatran and blast through it later. SPL was months ago and I made this nomination in the context of recent metagame shifts, so those stats aren't really a counter-argument. It's 7th in overall stour stats but if you go from week 1 to 4 it dropped significantly. If you haven't used it why are you even making the counter argument??? And I explained why Clef does not need to run HP Ground, especially against the set you brought up.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Hoopa-C is probably one of the best stall breakers in the game tho, being able to avoid goth's trapping ability thanks to its typing, the ability to stall out Chansey, and SDef drop/high roll its way around Unaware Clef. All it really needs is something like SR Clef to guarantee rocks being set up vs Sab and then getting sab to about 60-70% before it can CM sweep. Niche, sure, but its still a very effective stall breaker and is fine where it is imo. You can also run Taunt CM if you want, tho I think Sub is better in general.

Whoa, all of those things that you said, it will probably not be able to do before it dies. Hoopa-Confined isn't one of the best stallbreakers, it dies to a Dark Move, meaning it will be forced out by a lot of things. I wouldn't say that it couldn't be able to stall out Chansey, but no one would really keep Chansey in on Hoopa anyway. Mega Sableye can do massive damage with Dark Pulse, or even Shadow Ball, meaning that it won't have much trouble plowing through Hoopa, even if it does take 70%. Taunt CM doesn't matter as it's bad physical bulk, and it's special bulk ruined by it's typing, means it won't have much time to use CM.

 

[SketchUp]

Thanks for pointing out a pokémon in C rank has flaws. Maybe the reason it is C rank is because it has some damn big flaws but it doesn't prevent it from doing its job. That dark weakness is unfortunate obviously, and definitely against offensive orientated teams you will have issues letting Hoopa-C do the work you want it to do, but against stall matchups it will shine.

Physical Tyranitar

Whoa, all of those things that you said, it will probably not be able to do before it dies. Hoopa-Confined isn't one of the best stallbreakers, it dies to a Dark Move, meaning it will be forced out by a lot of things.

It is one of the best stallbreakers and the dark weakness isn't even that big of a deal against a stall matchup. We're talking about a pokemon that's currently in C rank or something like that so it's quiet obvious it has some glaring flaws but it doesn't make much sense to point those out. Especially if you're talking about a disadvantage it has against faster teams (slower dark types don't appreciate focus blast) when your main goal is breaking stall.

I wouldn't say that it couldn't be able to stall out Chansey, but no one would really keep Chansey in on Hoopa anyway.

Doesn't change the fact that you can get a free sub every time you switch in against Chansey. And it's not like many pokemon on stall enjoy switching in against a Shadow Ball coming from 160 SpA. Mega Sableye is 2hko'd after a bit of prior damage and Unaware Clefable also takes huge amounts of damage.

Mega Sableye can do massive damage with Dark Pulse, or even Shadow Ball, meaning that it won't have much trouble plowing through Hoopa, even if it does take 70%.

Sucks that Hoopa-C is actually faster and after 10% prior damage MSableye will die to 2 Shadow Balls. Even if you come in as a revengekiller against the CM set, you take 75% from a +1 Shadow Ball so you're basically dead because you can't keep your Sableye at 80+% the whole match

Taunt CM doesn't matter as it's bad physical bulk, and it's special bulk ruined by it's typing, means it won't have much time to use CM.

You CM on the switchin, just like Crawdaunt SDs on the switchin and Diggersby SDs on the switchin. You don't have the bulk to boost against offensive pokemon but it doesn't matter because you can easily pressure them and force them out with the threat of an OHKO. In the case of Hoopa it's even easier because its special bulk enables it to boost up in front of pokemon like Mega Venu and Bulky Starmie.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Thanks for pointing out a pokémon in C rank has flaws. Maybe the reason it is C rank is because it has some damn big flaws but it doesn't prevent it from doing its job. That dark weakness is unfortunate obviously, and definitely against offensive orientated teams you will have issues letting Hoopa-C do the work you want it to do, but against stall matchups it will shine.

Physical Tyranitar It is one of the best stallbreakers and the dark weakness isn't even that big of a deal against a stall matchup. We're talking about a pokemon that's currently in C rank or something like that so it's quiet obvious it has some glaring flaws but it doesn't make much sense to point those out. Especially if you're talking about a disadvantage it has against faster teams (slower dark types don't appreciate focus blast) when your main goal is breaking stall.

Doesn't change the fact that you can get a free sub every time you switch in against Chansey. And it's not like many pokemon on stall enjoy switching in against a Shadow Ball coming from 160 SpA. Mega Sableye is 2hko'd after a bit of prior damage and Unaware Clefable also takes huge amounts of damage.

Sucks that Hoopa-C is actually faster and after 10% prior damage MSableye will die to 2 Shadow Balls. Even if you come in as a revengekiller against the CM set, you take 75% from a +1 Shadow Ball so you're basically dead because you can't keep your Sableye at 80+% the whole match

You CM on the switchin, just like Crawdaunt SDs on the switchin and Diggersby SDs on the switchin. You don't have the bulk to boost against offensive pokemon but it doesn't matter because you can easily pressure them and force them out with the threat of an OHKO. In the case of Hoopa it's even easier because its special bulk enables it to boost up in front of pokemon like Mega Venu and Bulky Starmie.

I would agree with all of that, but Crawdaunt has priority, which makes up for its bad speed tier, and Hoopa-Confined does not. Other than that, I agree with your reasoning.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

B... but i dont want heatran to be A rank...

Yeah... i dont really like it either... the only reason i use it is to beat the shit out of Clefable, which my team is weak to...

I guess its alright, i do think its very good tho, it could still be argued for A+...

Too lazy to make an autistic argument for it tho, maybe tomorrow

 

[quagback2qc]

Er talking of stuff dropping from higher ranks I'd like to suggest Heatran drops from A+ to A, I really find very few reasons to use this thing anymore because a ton of Pokemon that weren't popular in the past have become more so and have greatly diminished Heatran's niche. Most teams will much prefer the role compression one of the ground types have to offer in regards to being the teams designated SR user meaning it doesn't even excel at this role anymore. Looking through just S and A+ it struggles against the vast majority and even against reasonably positive match ups for it such as Scizor and Clefable they have ways around it or circumstances that means Heatran isn't the ideal option for switching in throughout the course of a game. The Magma Storm set is cool and all and undoubtedly puts in work vs defensive teams but it puts in very little vs current offense and if this can be considered Heatran's best set currently, that in itself says to me this mon isn't A+. Honourable mention for Scarf as that isn't terrible either but honestly I find this mon is living on a hype that it doesn't really deserve anymore. I know this is undoubtedly gonna be controversial and ppl will argue with me but please remember A isn't exactly calling Heatran shit, just reflecting that it isn't as good as it once was which I think is a fair assessment of it currently.

I'm going to have to disagree with this nom because of how Heatran's role compression and versatility outweighs most of the cons to heatran that you mentioned.

As you mention in your post, teams presently prefer bulky ground types as stealth rockers rather than Heatran, because of the supposed role compression they offer. Despite Heatran and these bulky ground types having similarities, your point is irrelevant because they have different roles and check drastically different threats than heatran. Bulky Ground Type SR setters such as Hippowdon, Lando-T, and TankChomp are used as blanket checks to physical attackers all over the meta while heatran's usage stems mainly from its godly defensive typing, which allows it to check a completely different range of threats than the bulky ground types you mention. Heatran serves as a blanket check to grass, steel, fairy, fire, and most dragon types which is a huge range of offensive typings. Its defensive typing and great mixed defenses allow it to check threats on both the physical and special sides of the spectrum, meaning that it checks a wider range of threats than those pesky bulky ground types while still being able to lay stealth rocks. Despite this, I have to agree with you on the fact that Heatran isn't the most consistent SR setter in the meta. But with that amazing potential to check a bunch of other threats, it doesn't have to be.

Your argument that it doesn't have great matchups vs the rest of the meta is also pretty irrelevant because mons like Scizor and Clefable have had ways to beat Heatran for a very long time, even since late XY/early ORAS. The fact that certain mons have coverage to beat Heatran isn't some sort of metagame trend that we are realizing now - it was taken into account when Heatran was ranked in A+ a very long time ago. Moving on to its matchup vs S through A+ as you mentioned, you have to realize that Heatran is very versatile, and even lure sets like "Offensive Air Balloon + HP Ice" are still extremely effective. Going down the list, you can see that Heatran has at least one viable offensive or defensive set that pressures all of the mons in S and A+. If you want, I can go down the list and show you a Heatran set that pressures, checks, or counters each mon, but I don't feel the need to do that because there is a general understanding of how many sets Heatran can run. Overall, Heatran is too good of a blanket check/versatile beast to drop at this point.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

We had a recent discussion about Heatran. Then again, the same could be said for Porn Bunny and Cloud Bird Fairy Thing and that didn't stop anybody. I listed my reasons why Heatran should stay A+ and I don't want to repeat it. There are a few I want to respond to, though.

Megabro - Half the time you don't mega. You can try to call this a good thing by saying "Yeah, it's so flexible!" but then why not use another mega? The meta is too specially oriented for this guy - and the few physical attackers are dark types. IK you can recover off a knock off but what if the bisharp sword dances on you?

I've always been on the fence with Mega Slowbro, being able to catch the yes and no for both sides. Its Mega is incredibly bulky--bulkier than your base Slowbro, and has an immunity to critical hits. Sweet, right? This comes at a loss of Regenerator, which is absolutely irritating. Much of your switching capabilities are gone just from that, so why bother? You want to use Slowbro as Physical Tank? Partner it with Heatran and Tangrowth for a good core and use your Mega for something like Mega Scizor for defogging or something. Never really liked Mega Slowbro due to the loss of what made Slowbro amazing (hence why I rarely use Mega Alakazam over the regular one because you lose Magic Guard) but I can see either A or A- for it.

Celebi - Outclassed by mew unless you specifically want a keldeo counter. Quad weakness to bug hurts and grass typing doesn't really do much otherwise. But now that mew is in A maybe you can disagree. Like I said this is all my opinion.

Keldeo Counter? I use Gyarados for that, really. Celebi's advantage against Mew is that it shrugs status off more easily thanks to Natural Cure (Synchronize is hit and miss with me--thanks for the burn, Heatran!) and the Grass Typing gives it an immunity to Spore and Leech Seed, great combination. The problems arise when VoltTurn cores come into play, but Hidden Power Fire makes Scizor livid (or dead, whatever). Not to mention that Celebi can check multiple Pokemon despite being checked by multiple Pokemon itself--think of it like the type-opposite Tyranitar but used for a similar purpose.

Dragalge - Way too narrow of a niche. Do you really need TSpikes? Easily the best at that role but it seems way too slim. And since it doesn't have recovery, it gets whittle too easily so it doesn't really beat clef/alt.

Ah, Adaptability. You make Crawdaunt one of the finest and you give Dragalge usable offenses. Thanks. You don't NEED to run it for Toxic Spikes...Choice Specs is an option. Not the finest user of it--that honor goes to Raikou, but it's there. Keep it where it is for now, though.

Gallade - skill swap sucks. This guy has been overrated for far too long. I know medicham rose, but I'd rather use mega Chomp than this crap.

Let's not say things we're apt to take back now.

Kabutops - Worse than kingdra and the rankings should reflect that.

I don't know...Kabutops has Swords Dance along with great STAB options to work with, not to mention Rapid Spin (for some reason), so...I wouldn't discount the Fossil too much.

Pert - Takes up a mega slot.

gr8 b8 m8 i r8 8/8
Mega Swampert...does need a drop, though, and the reasons have been bashed in and drilled through, so I won't keep this one up. I will, however, mention that it could've been worse...could've kept Damp.
Seriously, though, let it drop.

Hawlucha - i've tried using this many a time but it's too underwhelming and frail.

Excellent reasoning. "I can't use it, therefore it's bad." Might as well argue that Magnezone should drop because I've tried using it and it's too underwhelming for me.
No, but seriously...it's B for a reason. It needs some support to muscle through the onslaught of Electric-Types going around, sure, but anything unprepared for it dies against it once it gets a Swords Dance boost behind its sub (then Unburden takes effect, which means bye-bye Alakazam).

Chesnaught - What? B-?? This thing is nowhere near that rank. The typing isn't that good even though it can sponge knock off since it can't even switch into weavile.

I personally use the SalacSubDrum set and it's bad some seriously good runs. The typing is done well by Breloom, so I don't see the problem.

Lucario - I know it can go either setup but it's just too slow. If its Espeed were Stab then this would be a huge threat, but besides sponging knock off it doesn't do much. It really has a hard time setting up. But it does beat Clef Tran teams, so maybe it can stay.

Now I--oh wait, this is not wanting a drop. Fair.

Tentacruel - lol a spinner not called exca or starmie. It doesn't even have recovery! And if I wanted tspikes, which I don't, I'm using dragalge. No.

Why not have BOTH a Rapid Spinner AND a Toxic Spike layer all in one Pokemon? Tentacruel is the one to do it, right? It's a niche, sure, but it's definitely unique.

Mega blastoise - I actually like Blastoise, but it isn't C+ material.

Yeah, but dat movepool tho. It died pretty quickly after release, but I think it's fine where it is.

Houndoom - What. Does. This. Do.

It. Dies. Every. Time.

Hoopa C - It's like a worse chandelure and chandelure is bad. Like in UU it can run nasty plot and claim that but here it's only niche is in Trick Room or as a spinblocker (lol). And it loses to exca so rip. I think unrank it unless you can prove that it has a niche Hoopa-U doesn't outclass.

It's not...ALL bad. I'd say C- and D is just fine. Say Chandelure is bad, though...that's just rude. The candles have had too much ripping from the Gen 1ers.

(and I would add Clef to the list but then you would really kill me lol)

No, we'd hang you and keep you alive for occasional hot pokings to make you squirm in pain.
Seriously, though, let Clefable be. Does too much for one Pokemon.

 

[ShadowMarioGalaxy64]

why the fuck do you write so much

are you calling him out or something?

Son, I am disappoint. This isn't even the most I've typed at all, nor is it even THAT much. If I wanted to really call somebody out, it'd be a literal wall of text (see my Staraptor vs Talonflame post).
What's wrong with elaboration? Single-lined posts are typically frowned upon anyways, so why not go into SOME detail? Besides, I didn't even do a fantastic job at explaining everything to begin with.
Me no smarty. Me use Agility Diggersby and me no get comment. Simple enough?

 

[Martin]

Drops imo:
Heatran - I mean this got an awful response last time. But Heatran just gets worn down too easily and

Why would this of all things drop .-. it is currently, like, the third most splashable 'mon behind chomper and clefable .-.

Celebi - Outclassed by mew unless you specifically want a keldeo counter. Quad weakness to bug hurts and grass typing doesn't really do much otherwise. But now that mew is in A maybe you can disagree. Like I said this is all my opinion.

This an mew are not comparable .-. Mew is primarily a stallbreaker and Celebi's main niche comes from NastyPass, its great supportive options in things like Heal Bell, Perish Song etc. and its ability to act as a soft check to electrics. While I agree it should drop, you are seriously underselling what this thing can do.

Kabutops - Worse than kingdra and the rankings should reflect that.

Wha... I have genuinely never seen a rain team without Kabu outside of, like, one poorly-built Swampert one. Why is this one of your drop noms?

Hawlucha - i've tried using this many a time but it's too underwhelming and frail.

>acting as if you are meant to take hits with Hawlucha. Seriously, this thing is aimed to clean up late-game when things have been weakened, and it has such an easy time setting up Sub+SD due to how much stuff it forces out that I don't see why your reasoning would be "underwhelming".

Tentacruel - lol a spinner not called exca or starmie. It doesn't even have recovery! And if I wanted tspikes, which I don't, I'm using dragalge. No.

Why are you using Exca as an example of a good spinner lmfao. Also, Dragalge is such a disgustingly bad comparison it makes me want to puke. This thing has good type synergy and is definitely better than any spinning Exca (and most of the current B- rank to boot). This things typing, Liquid Ooze and stat spread lets it check a lot of the stuff in the meta ATM, and both access to T-Spikes and being a spinner which absorbs them on switch-in is just the icing on this already delicious cake.

Houndoom - What. Does. This. Do.

Rips a number of teams to shreds, one of the most reliable answers to Gengar once on the field etc. This thing has more going for it than you are letting on, and the way you are describing it implies you have never either seen nor used one so idk why you are nomming it down.

Hoopa C - It's like a worse chandelure and chandelure is bad. Like in UU it can run nasty plot and claim that but here it's only niche is in Trick Room or as a spinblocker (lol). And it loses to exca so rip. I think unrank it unless you can prove that it has a niche Hoopa-U doesn't outclass.)

Once again, Exca is a shitty spinner, so idk why losing to Excadrill is a drawback for a spinner. Additionally, this thing is leagues better than chandelure, and if you are using it you will be doing so with heavy VoltTurn support (as it is currently the absolute best stop to Gothitelle). Also it is by far the best spinblocker for Sticky Web due to webs allowing it to beat all spinners 1v1 (Bish+Hoopa-C is a godlike webs core) in conjunction with its good special bulk and it pairs well with things which take a dump on offense such as Wobbuffet, covering up its main weakness. Hoopa-C and Hoopa-U, while slightly comparable, isn't the best thing to use the word "outclassed" for considering that they fulfill completely different uses on different teams (Hoopa-C is a stallbreaker for VoltTurn and spinblocker for webs wheras Hoopa-U fits on different archetypes and is primarily a balance breaker (and Hoopa-U is really crap as an NP user due to its typing, while Hoopa-C completely dominates with the set (SubNP/Taunt+NP is its best set))).

edit: changed accidental Kingdra mention to Kabu as that is what I meant.

 

[GlassVeins]

I have to ask: why is Goth ranked at B? She's almost the face of stall right now (along with m-sab), and she can do more than just help stall: she can also shred it, if i'm not much mistaken. A well played Gothitelle is very rarely dead weight. have to go or i'd elaborate more. would appreciate any thoughts on it.

 

[QueenOfHax]

It is time to raise Shedinja's rank. I don't care where it goes as long as it's higher than D, a rank that does not accurately reflect its viability and relevance in the metagame. Yes, Shedinja only works with very specific team mates, but one of them happens to be the S-rank Mega Sableye and as far as I know "having to be paired" with one of the best pokemon in the tier counts as a plus, not a drawback. Its other common team mates (most notably the trappers) aren't deadweght either and their combined synergy is in fact extremely potent.
Remember the pre-nerf Baton Pass chain archetype? There were people who were dead set against raising Espeon and co.'s ranking even though it was painfully obvious that they were not D-rank garbage. Eventually they did get a raise and the playstyle was nerfed and then even completely banned. I'm not saying that Shedinja stall is anywhere close to BP's power, but it's certainly better than D-rank.
Considering that rain sweepers such as Kabutops are completely worthless if not placed in a rain team and are ranked somewhere around B, the "Shedinja needs too much support" argument doesn't really hold water since the team archetype is actually good.

As for Shedinja itself, the ability to completely nullify an average of two opposing pokemon per match, provided that they don't carry unconventional moves (such as random HP Fires and Knock Offs, but you can scout for them with Protect and Ditto support) is a unique and valuable niche and it's what makes it so good.
Said pokemon include DD Mega Altaria, non-Pursuit Mega Metagross, most Starmies, non-HP Fire Manaphy and Lati@s, most Keldeos, Mega Lopunny, Mega Medicham and non-mega Gyarados.

Right now I would propose C+ for Shedinja, but as I said I don't really care as long as it's higher than D.

 

[Alfalfa]

Lucario - I know it can go either setup but it's just too slow. If its Espeed were Stab then this would be a huge threat, but besides sponging knock off it doesn't do much. It really has a hard time setting up. But it does beat Clef Tran teams, so maybe it can stay.

Lucario is not dropping a rank below Azelf and into the same ranking as Bronzong, Staraptor, and Alomomola when its capabilities with ESpeed are still quite useful. In a realistic scenario, Lucario is not going to be OHKOing threats with ESpeed, but picking them off. Lucario is more inclined to set up against bulkier teams, and while it will require some smart plays to get in a safe set-up, in no way should it drop, for a more offensively-inclined metagame is almost certainly in favor of Lucario.

 

[MikeDawg]

Shendinja should raise. Perhaps not to C+, but definitely not D.

The simple fact that it was the main component of one of the most successful ladder teams this gen speaks to its viability (as a result, it should not be resting in the "barely viable" rank).

Of course, it requires an entire team to be built around it; neccesary support is off the charts. But when that team can consistently peak #1 from multiple players, there is an implication that shendinja isn't the worst thing to build a team around.

 

[Funbot28]

I have to ask: why is Goth ranked at B? She's almost the face of stall right now (along with m-sab), and she can do more than just help stall: she can also shred it, if i'm not much mistaken. A well played Gothitelle is very rarely dead weight. have to go or i'd elaborate more. would appreciate any thoughts on it.

Ya can see this happen. Although I don't use Goth stall, I like it as a nice stop to slow setup sweepers and walls, and can just setup on their faces and proceed to sweep. I think a rise to B+ or A- is justable.

 

[bludz]

"having to be paired" with one of the best pokemon in the tier counts as a plus, not a drawback.

Having to be paired with any pokemon is a drawback, because it means its viability is dependent on another. If it weren't for Mega Sableye, Shedinja wouldn't even be remotely viable. The other thing it does is restrict teambuilding. That's why rain, despite being a good playstyle, isn't all that dominant because the teambuilds tend to be rather formulaic and lack the general diversity that typical offensive builds can have. The same applies to Sableye/Shedinja builds in the sense that there's not a whole lot of variety to them and this speaks to the viability of Shedinja as a whole

In a metagame where pursuit trapping and sand are so common, I can't see a good reason to raise Shedinja. Sure maybe it walls 2 pokemon or more per team but the number of lure moves that are run in general mean that you can't be completely sure of what you are walling and not anyway. The crazy amount of support it needs - 0 hazards at all times, no sand and to avoid pursuit trappers - is incredibly high and doesn't merit a rise. Its support characteristics aren't all that great anyway when you compare it to something like Blissey (cleric) which while outclassed, doesn't lose to RD Mana which Chansey can and also handles Gengar which most stall teams have serious problems with. I don't think Shedinja is more viable than Blissey or Jellicent for that matter which is much more self sufficient in many ways and is also not completely screwed by pursuit trappers. You can argue about Baton Pass but if the opponent gets Weav/Bish in on Shedinja, they outspeed it anyway so that's not gonna work.

Being a mon on one of the most successful ladder teams doesn't necessarily mean that it should move up. Nobody is asking for Seismitoad or Dugtrio to move up either and they are instrumental pieces on these teams. If you guys didn't know there was a guy who was consistently near the top of the ladder for a while and he used Donphan but that pokemon isn't even on the viability rankings because it's simply bad when compared to other pokemon in this metagame.

 

[Toljik]

Shuckle should drop to D imo. Lol it's shit. It has absolutely no offensive presence, becomes dead weight and is flat out walled by any magic bounce user. It having good bulk is nice, but who care when its dead weight after webs n rocks are up. Especially because smeargle can do both of those things, and a lot more, and is ALSO taunt bait, and set up bait, and smeargle isn't even ranked.

That's all. If you want to call me out for being a dumbass at least do it politely please :D

What separates Shuckle from every other Sticky Web user is that it is not a suicide lead. It doesn't have to run Focus Sash and you're not playing 6-5 with a poorly built team if your opponent has any form of hazard removal. It has ways of mitigating the risk of opponents Taunting or setting up.

 

[MikeDawg]

Having to be paired with any pokemon is a drawback, because it means its viability is dependent on another. If it weren't for Mega Sableye, Shedinja wouldn't even be remotely viable.

In a metagame where pursuit trapping and sand are so common, I can't see a good reason to raise Shedinja. Sure maybe it walls 2 pokemon or more per team but the number of lure moves that are run in general mean that you can't be completely sure of what you are walling and not anyway. The crazy amount of support it needs - 0 hazards at all times, no sand and to avoid pursuit trappers - is incredibly high and doesn't merit a rise. Its support characteristics aren't all that great anyway when you compare it to something like Blissey (cleric) which while outclassed, doesn't lose to RD Mana which Chansey can and also handles Gengar which most stall teams have serious problems with. I don't think Shedinja is more viable than Blissey or Jellicent for that matter which is much more self sufficient in many ways and is also not completely screwed by pursuit trappers. You can argue about Baton Pass but if the opponent gets Weav/Bish in on Shedinja, they outspeed it anyway so that's not gonna work.

Being a mon on one of the most successful ladder teams doesn't necessarily mean that it should move up. Nobody is asking for Seismitoad or Dugtrio to move up either and they are instrumental pieces on these teams. If you guys didn't know there was a guy who was consistently near the top of the ladder for a while and he used Donphan but that pokemon isn't even on the viability rankings because it's simply bad when compared to other pokemon in this metagame.

Your theorymonning about shedinja is contradictory to the actual success of the team/Mon, tho....

And requiring parternship from one the best mons is not nearly as damning as you are making it out to be. Lots of mons require partnerships to be successful (try making a stall team without chansey+quag or without gothitelle, for example). The key word here is "successful". Of course you could use shendinja without sableye. It sure makes hazard control more difficult, but defog+trapping is possible. The fact that sableye exists is a boon for shendinja and lots of other mons. I don't see the logic in comparing shendinja to pretty much any other mon in the meta anyway.

Shendinja hard walls (most variants of) lopunny, keldeo, manaphy, Metagross, altaria, azumarill, thunderus, slowbro, Gardevoir, gyarados, jirachi, medicham, politoad, raikou, starmie, some breloom, dragalgae, digersby, feraligatr, Gallade, some dragonite, kingdra, latis, mamoswine, suicune, swampert, beedrill, gothitelle, cm reun, some scizor, slowking, scolipede, some zapdos, chesnaught, some lucario, sylveon, thundy-t, cobalion, kyurem, some shaymin, zygarde, meloetta.

^_^

Also lol please spare the (@everyone, not bludz) "LOL wait <insert one Mon from my list> beats shendinja ur whole argument sucks!!"

Idk why you think that such a Mon isn't worth heavily supporting.

Also, you oversell the rest of the team. Seismi, togekiss, etc. aren't integral. They are successful in those rolls, yes, but there are certainly other options, some better ones included.

And the difference between this and some guy with donohan is that this wasn't just some trolly good player, EVERYONE (hyperbolic) was using and succeeding with this team--a testament to shendinja, not the players

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

I have to ask: why is Goth ranked at B? She's almost the face of stall right now (along with m-sab), and she can do more than just help stall: she can also shred it, if i'm not much mistaken. A well played Gothitelle is very rarely dead weight. have to go or i'd elaborate more. would appreciate any thoughts on it.

Well, Gothitelle is nothing short of a threat, but I think that it's most important set, "Literally Satan", which involves Tricking a Scarf to the opponent, is very situational. Gothitelle's bulk is good, but it's hard to play offensive with an average Base 95 Special Attack. Shadow Tag Tricking Sweeps are pretty rare. Please, what do you think about this?

 

[MikeDawg]

Well, Gothitelle is nothing short of a threat, but I think that it's most important set, "Literally Satan", which involves Tricking a Scarf to the opponent, is very situational. Gothitelle's bulk is good, but it's hard to play offensive with an average Base 95 Special Attack. Shadow Tag Tricking Sweeps are pretty rare. Please, what do you think about this?

The goal now of trick scarfing goth is to nullify the threat posed by (insert wallpaper with good coverage here). Scarf = no life orb and no moves switching

 

[bludz]

MikeDawg I don't mind you arguing with me but I don't appreciate your mudslinging by calling my arguments "theorymoning" when everything I've said has come from experience seeing Shedinja in action.

As for that list of mons so many of those are wrong. I don't need to go into detail and pick it apart one by one because I think you already know you built that list in an attempt to build up its walling capabilities but do realize that about half of those mons have counterplay and many even have attacks to hit it on standard sets.

Also Seismitoad and Dugtrio were incredibly integral parts of those teams with Dugtrio trapping and removing stuff like Tyranitar and Bisharp while Seismitoad was shutting down Mega Manectric which Branflakes admitted was a major issue for his squad before he made the change and it also prevented Scald spam from wrecking shit. I'll also point out that there were a grand total of 2 successful Shedinja builds; every other one I saw had some rather glaring weaknesses. As for the restriction comparison to Stall running Chansey and Skarm -- uh yeah haven't you noticed that Stall is a pretty restricted playstyle at this point? I mean many people would argue that Goth stall is the only viable kind although I think there's a little more versatility than that but it's still quite limited compared to offense or balance.

As for your last comment -- it was a testament to those team builds which showcased the best possible use of Shedinja, not just the pokemon itself. Yes the teams were built around Shedinja but let's not pretend it was the MVP in every match they were used in lol as if Mega Sableye didn't put in massive amounts of work.

Let's also not pretend that the heyday of those squads wasn't like 2 months ago - that's what caused Shedinja to be ranked in the first place but nobody's providing a reason why it has gotten better since then.

 

[henry]

Shendinja should raise. Perhaps not to C+, but definitely not D.

The simple fact that it was the main component of one of the most successful ladder teams this gen speaks to its viability (as a result, it should not be resting in the "barely viable" rank).

Of course, it requires an entire team to be built around it; neccesary support is off the charts. But when that team can consistently peak #1 from multiple players, there is an implication that shendinja isn't the worst thing to build a team around.

its listed as barely viable because its almost impossible to run successfully on almost any team archetype. the pokemon that it walls are irrelevant when there are hazards or sand on the field. it also has no offensive presence, making it difficult to actually punish the free switches it gets (assuming there isnt hazards/sand).

putting one of the pokemon in C+ or C on your team is infinitely easier than doing the same with shedninja.

for now just try to stick to what's on the slate. we'll post changes soon.

 

[Waluigi The Anime]

NOMINATING MEGA CAMERUPT TO C+

Mega Camerupt is a very good pokemon in the current metagame. Don't really have time to write paragraph after paragraph, so I'll just list the pros and cons.

PROS
Insanely powerful with a high base special attack backed up by sheer force.
Checks and counters common pokemon in the metagame, such as Clefable, (Mega) Scizor, Heatran, Mega Manectric, and Raikou.
Pairs well with setup users that require a teammate to wall break certain pokemon, such as Serpior and Calm Mind Clefable.
Fourth slot can be quite versatile, being able to run Stealth Rock on forced switches, Toxic, Will-o-wisp, and Yawn.
Puts in a lot of work against Volt-Turn teams.
Immunity to Will-o-wisp and Thunder Wave is always useful.
Has Ancient Power to smack around Talonflame.

CONS
Takes up the mega slot.
4x weakness to water and 2x weakness to ground sucks in general.
No reliable recovery and susceptibility to hazards can wear down Camerupt over the match (Wish support helps with this problem)
Somewhat dead weight against Rain.
Stupidly slow (Trick Room helps with this).

CLARIFICATION
Mega Camerupt should rise because it is a good wall breaker, not because it can be a good trick room abuser. IMO the pros outweigh the cons, and Mega Camerupt seems like C+ material.