ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M3 (READ POST #823)

[Kink]

I definitely support Espeon to B for reasons including, but not limited to, being able to OHKO Cobalion.

 

[Christo]

I really need to see Mega Houndoom get some love. There is absolutely no way that Mega Houndoom is at the same viability as Pokemon such as Mega Camerupt, Pangoro, or Noivern. If I need to make an elaborate post to prove my point, I will try my best, but it seems very obvious to me. A move up is needed to at least B+.

As for other noms:
Vaporeon: B- to C (Yeah, any other bulky water is a better option 100% of the time)
Mega Ampharos: A- to B+ ( I love Amph but it is hard to use it effectively in this meta, I can agree)
Toxicroak: A- to A ( Yeah, great typing + ability as well as being very effective in this meta from what I have seen)
Escavalier: B to B+ ( Used it a couple of times and w/ decent success, I could care less either way)
Espeon: C to...B? ( Espeon definitely has a niche over Azelf with Magic Bounce paired with the Calm Mind set with Shock / Stored Power. I think it is enough of a niche to move it to B)

 

[Serperior for Uber]

OMG Yes Espeon for B rank yes yes yes
I've been using Espeon a lot lately and its CM espeon deserves a huge shoutout. Immunity to status and phazing lets it beat Suicune 1v1 (if morning sun) and also lets it set up on p2. Also, I think one of the reasons that people discount Espeon is that it cannot block all hazard setters. But I don't feel it needs to to be able to exert its presence of Magic Guard. Simply having Espeon on the team would make a Krookodile for instance less inclined to use Stealth rocks. The mindgames that it causes is enough to validate its presence. Thats not to say it doesnt block hazards; it blocks hazards from Nidoqueen,Empoleon,Roserade,Chesnaught, coballion, Froslass, qwilfish and a lot more that I don't remember right now. It also turns many of them into set up bait and can just cm up. Now you may be wondering what advantage does CM espeon have over say Cm reunc. CM espeon's biggest asset is speed, being able to outspeed and OHKO krookodile and Hydreigon naturally with dazzling gleam sets it apart. But what separates it from NP Azelf? Espeon cannot get twaved, and if you are running the morning sun set it can function a little bulkier and just keep boosting tll the max, something that Azelf could not do.

Here a few replays of a slightly bulky cm espeon set:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-277406962 Espeon starts boosting and LO hydra is left crying itself to sleep because it cant outspeed Espeon. Reunc for example, would lose because it doesn't have the speed to beat hydra.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-278907901 Blocks rocks from Coballion, sets up on p2 and sweeps.

But espeon is not without flaws, it is still very frail and faces competition from Azelf who has more utility with hazards,taunt, etc. I still think B or even B+ is a fair rank for it, C is just criminal.

 

[nv]

Vaporeon

B- to C (Agree)

Sadly this thing is just not worth it for any team's "Bulky Water" slot anymore. Vaporeon's ability to pass fat Wishes and have a Water immunity isn't as useful in this meta as Suicune has the ability to set up and phaze out other setup sweepers, Mega Blastoise can "wallbreak" and be a great spinner due to Mega Launcher-boosted Dark Pulse, and Slowking can setup and hit on the "opposite" defensive stat if needed thanks to STAB Psyshock. Vaporeon also lacks the true bulk to take hits that it should be able to from Fire-, Water-, and Ice-types due to most having a secondary neutral STAB (Infernape, Swampert, and Mamoswine for example). Overall, while it should be able to pull its own weight, UU has more to offer in the way of "Bulky Water" and as such Vaporeon is the metaphorical low man on the totem pole.

Mega Ampharos

A- to B+ (Disagree)

While I understand this has a big opportunity cost over other popular Megas such as Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Swampert, I still feel the power this thing brings to the table is unmatched. STAB Volt Switch coming off of a base 165 Special Attack stat is nothing to scoff at; having STAB Dragon Pulse also helps check those pesky Ground-types who try to block its Electric STAB moves. While it is very susceptible to being worn down due to lack of reliable recovery, I feel the power it brings to balance teams (and potentially to offense with the slept upon Agility set) is great enough to keep it where it is.

Toxicroak

A- to A (Agree)

This thing is a beast right now, with Yifeng peaking at #1 recently with a Nasty Plot Toxicroak team that he built for the Lab (shameless promotion y/y). Both its Swords Dance and Nasty Plot sets are very viable right now as both can set up on the other one's checks and counters. The other reason this thing should move up is because it completely counters Mono-Attacking Water-types (one of the reason RoarCune is so much better right now than CroCune) thanks to its ability Dry Skin, which gives utility to its Swords Dance set since it becomes immune to burns via Scald.

Escavalier

B to B+ (Abstain)

I haven't really used Escavalier all that much in UU; however, I do believe it could potentially move up as it has really nice resistances and bulk that it can take advantage of with an Assault Vest while only having one weakness, albeit a common weakness. Escavalier also has amazing power when equipped with a Choice Band with decent STABs. Sadly, its base 20 Speed holds it back a lot in my opinion as it will always take a hit before it fires back with a move. This also leaves it very susceptible to "status" from faster mons such as Slowking, Jellicent and so on.

Espeon

C to B/B+ (Abstain, but ok)

Again, another mon I haven't really used although I feel like I have a bit more to say on this particular Pokemon. The fact that it can OHKO Cobalion is a decent boon to balance teams who have a hard time with it. Espeon also has the ever amazing Magic Bounce ability that allows status moves and hazards to be bounced back, allowing Espeon to effectively be a great Calm Mind sweeper / passer. It also gets decent coverage moves such as Dazzling Gleam for Dark-types and Energy Ball for bulky Waters. Other than that, I don't see why you would leave this in C except for maybe its frailty / lack of initial power when compared to other Psychic-types such as Azelf.

I really need to see Mega Houndoom get some love. There is absolutely no way that Mega Houndoom is at the same viability as Pokemon such as Mega Camerupt, Pangoro, or Noivern. If I need to make an elaborate post to prove my point, I will try my best, but it seems very obvious to me. A move up is needed to at least B+.

I was going to wait until after my RMT to do a big feature on this Pokemon, but since Christo already brought it up I will elaborate more.

Mega Houndoom

B to B+ (Agree)

This thing, while not as amazing as it was in XY, is a major threat and people are finally starting to realize how good this thing is. With an amazing STAB combination, base 115 Speed, and a plethora of options for its 4th move (Protect for "free" Mega, Taunt to break stall / not get statused, Flame Charge to not be revenge killed, etc.) it has become worthy of B+. Like Christo said, it isn't in any ways on the same page viability-wise as Mega Camerupt, Pangoro, or Noivern, and as such it should be moved up. B+ is reasonable, but I could see this thing going as high as A- as the Speed tier coupled with a boosting move (Nasty Plot) and amazing STAB moves makes for a very threatening mon even on balance teams. Overall, I am all for a move up on this mon and I hope everyone else agrees with me lol.

 

[Bouff]

definitely support vape moving down, it's pretty sub-par as a whole compared to other bulky waters. hell even milotic (who i think should be b- instead of vape honestly) has something over it in that u don't have to waste two slots for recovery and u can use it on something more useful, as well as being arguably less passive. there's also the fact that, unlike the other bulky water wish passer, a good amount of the tier is forcing it to wish / protect, which really makes it difficult to pull its weight otherwise. i guess having water absorb is cool and all until you realize that 1v1 cune is probably stalling it out anyway and that it struggles against most other relevant bulky waters unless it gets a scald burn. the only set i'd really consider using with this thing is acid armor + bp or some weird shit like that. think this is long long overdue

don't have too much of an opinion on the other noms. i haven't really used escavalier too much to have a solid opinion on it, but i've taken a likin to the cb set atm, since it fucks up a lot of the standard water / psychic / fairy defensive cores that are (still) running around, and not much on offense likes switching on it either except for cobalion if you're running suit > drill. sd resttalk kinda poops on fatter teams as well, but av kinda blows imo since the added bulk isn't worth not being able to do as much damage as the other sets ~_~. i don't have too much of a problem with it being in b+ since i do think its better than f*cking pangoro, though

 

[dodmen]

fwiw I think Escavalier on normal balance should be running something like this:

Escavalier @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 56 Atk / 204 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn
- Iron Head
- Pursuit
- Protect / Knock Off / Toxic

I've always thought AV was a pretty bad item to use on Escavalier because it just gets worn down soo easily by hazards, switching into Florges/Reun, etc. With Leftovers you're able to gain back SR damage to stay healthy enough to check everything you want to, for example Florges / Whims, Psychic-types other than LO Azelf, Abomasnow, LO Hydreigon, Dragalge, Kyurem, Venomoth, Hoopa, Mega Beedrill, Shaymin, MScept. Getting worn down by Stealth Rock + Reuniclus hitting you with Psyshock on the switch without having that Leftovers recovery just makes you lose your Escavalier eventually.

Also, the set doesn't really need max Attack to do its job, which is beating those things I listed above. With heavy SpDef investment you're able to tank hits easily from those guys (again, while getting some health back in the process, which is super important!!) and easily OHKO/2HKO what you need to.

example

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Escavalier: 133-156 (38.7 - 45.4%)
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Escavalier: 152-179 (44.3 - 52.1%)
4 SpA Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 204 SpD Escavalier: 84-99 (24.4 - 28.8%)

Goes without saying what even minimally Atk invested Escavalier does back to these. Pursuit+SR guarantees a kill on Hoopa if it doesn't switch out.

Pursuit is really nice for getting chip on Reun, killing Hoopa, almost killing Beedrill etc. Protect is also great to get back even more Lefties, especially vs stuff that can do a bit more damage to you like Mega Aero and Mega Blastoise, and of course scouting vs Entei, Mienshao, Darm, Chand choiced variants. Toxic is good for hitting like Salamence, some Waters, Arcanine/Rotom-H, Chesnaught and others with on the switch.

SD RestTalk is okay on paper vs stall I guess but there's still gonna be the odd flamethrower Mence or Taunt Crobat that's gonna make it difficult. And functions pretty badly against basically anything other than full stall. Choice Band is cool for just demolishing shit but it seems awkward to build around, doesn't help that Escav isn't a true steel (neutrality to Flying and Aero's SE hurts).

 

[Wandering Wobbuffet]

I have 3 nominations for the viability rankings after I've been laddering for quite some time:

Pangoro to B+
This thing is a beast quite literally. It threatens every mon on stall bar alomomola with it's various coverage options. Knock off + ice punch kills gligar, hammer arm has a decent chance to 2HKO mega aggron etc. Very few things can switch in against it even on stall. UU is known for having a lot of stall and this thing just says fuck you to it thus making it deserving of B+ rank.

Nidoking up to A-
Very similar to pangoro this thing can also take a massive shit against stall. However unlike Pangoro it has decent speed letting it perform well against offense/balance as well. The main set that makes it so threatening is not physical, not special, but mixed! With poison jab it nails florges and the like, earth power 2HKOs mega aggron, ice beam nails gligar/defensive mence, superpower wrecks snorlax/blissey, thunderbolt wrecks alomomola, and sucker punch is ice for priority. I've currently been running those first 4 moves (poison jab, earth power, ice beam, superpower) and it's been going great. IMO nidoking is has an extremely well deserved place at A-.

Mega Beedrill down to A/A-

Honestly I don't see what makes this A+ worthy. It's definitely a decent physical attacker but it's frailer than absol which is saying a quite a bit. It doesn't get any priority to counteract this making it so vulnerable to offense. Obviously beedrill sucks against stall not really having the greatest dual STABs to hit hard enough against it. I only see it really being decent against balance by switching into an already weakened mon and threatening everything else on the team. It also sucks that it essentially only has 3 moveslots since you MUST RUN PROTECT unless you have balls of steel since otherwise priority isn't even needed to outspeed it.

 

[Aquadext]

Mega Beedrill down to A/A-

Honestly I don't see what makes this A+ worthy. It's definitely a decent physical attacker but it's frailer than absol which is saying a quite a bit. It doesn't get any priority to counteract this making it so vulnerable to offense. Obviously beedrill sucks against stall not really having the greatest dual STABs to hit hard enough against it. I only see it really being decent against balance by switching into an already weakened mon and threatening everything else on the team. It also sucks that it essentially only has 3 moveslots since you MUST RUN PROTECT unless you have balls of steel since otherwise priority isn't even needed to outspeed it.

I must disagree with this one. MBee is good against offense, as it outspeeds lot of frail pokemons and can threaten them with a powerful U-turn/Poison Jab after some prior damage, forcing them to switch (and losing momentum) or die. And you know that keeping momentum is the key to win for offensive teams. Yes, priority is annoying, but who really threatens MBee ? Mamo takes more damage from U-turn + loses momentum, and MBee can scout Fake-out/extreme speed entei with protect and can switch if necessary.
Also you can't say it sucks against stall, as MBee is even harder for them to catch. It also deal big damage to Reuni, Cress, Slowking, Florges, and anything not resisting U-turn. Even Empoleon takes like 36% from U-turn ! And obviously it cripples switch-ins with Knock Off and switches out. The 10-15% damage it deals to the bulkiest steel types seem nothing but in the end, when you add the residual dmg from hazards and all, that makes a lot.
Finally, a word on Protect: even if it didnt need to mega evolve safely, I would carry it, as it is soo useful to scout entei/mienshao/darma and every other choice locked mon.

It definitely is a great Pokemon, and deserves its A+.

 

[YABO]

Hey everybody, I know this isn't what was on the agenda but I have a nomination that may prove a bit strange to many of you at first. What I'm proposing is Feraligatr to A+. Now, before you go jumping down my throat I have my reasons. When I look at the S rank, I view that tier as either universal or undeniably overpowering and easy to use. Hydreigon, Salamence, Reuniclus, and Suicune are all universally good in every match you play. They consistently provide offensive and defensive presence. Feraligatr isn't universal in the slightest. It's a really shitty fire resist and hardly gets any chances to set up with current metagame trends. Stuff like Hydreigon and Salamence dropping stupidly strong Draco Meteors while Whimsicott pops out at the most inopportune times makes Gatr's life really hard. Not to mention that even when it CAN find a time to set up there is a ton of stuff that lives and provided it didn't get a completely free setup, it's going down. Furthermore, rising stars like Mega Sceptile still outspeed even after a dd, further making Feraligatr's job difficult. Now I know feel isn't the best metric for measuring something's viability but Feraligatr hasn't felt great in awhile now. Something that does feel great in every match is Cobalion who feels more S rank worthy to me than Feraligatr right now. Remember, I'm not saying Feraligatr is bad, it still belongs in one of the highest tiers of viability, it just doesn't fit on enough squads and it isn't as threatening as it needs to be to hang with the big boys in S.

Other Noms

-Vaporeon kinda sucks, it's more or less outclassed as a wish passer and can't even handle Entei, drop it
-Ampharos tries to do too much and accomplishes too little. It's a solid mon but not A-
-Toxicroak is good I just don't view it as A rank. It always seems to come up a bit short on KOs and really relies on the opponent having a bulky water to capitalize on or it feels a lot like dead weight.
-Escavalier is something I honestly have no idea about other than agreeing that AV is a shitty item on it.
-Espeon is annoying as shit to face and it's definitely worthy of a rise.
-Houndoom is something else that is scary as hell and I'd rank it as good as Mega Ampharos imo, so B+ should work for the two of them imo.

 

[Serperior for Uber]

The Big Deal about Mega-beedril is not that its stabs or weak or that it is frail, its that it gains momentum everytime it comes in. Mega-beedril pretty much forces you to switch into your steel type to take 20-25 including stealth rocks and it just Uturns into safety. Sure Beedril is frail, but it doesn't matter when it just uturns out all the time does it? Momentum can never be understated. Lets say your opponent switches into their beedrill "counter" foretress. Beedril uturns out while dropping about 20-25 including hazards and you send in your foretress bopper. Foretress can do nothing back to Beedril and is already back under duress. Compounding this fact is that most steel types do not have reliable recovery and will get whittled done by Mega-Beedril more often than not.
Beedril doesn't suck against stall, for the reasons mentioned above. It keeps momentum and pressure which is one of the most important things you need when trying to break stall. More often than not, stall will have a check to your sweepers and you will need to rely on offensive pressure, momentum, and hazards. Beedrill provides 2 of those 3. The most reliable way of beating Beedril is through hazards and priority and that is why it isnt a s rank threat.

TL;DR Beedril is good because its counters get uturned on and cant actually counter the bee

 

[ryan]

except for shedinja..

 

[nv]

Pangoro

B to B+ (Disagree)

While I agree that this thing is an amazing stallbreaker, it is hard pressed to run what it wants to run (Swords Dance, STABs, Ice Punch, and Gunk Shot) plus it has a hard time setting up with that base 58 Speed it has. Another reason I disagree with this is that while it may be able to setup and break stall, Heracross does a better job with a better base Speed and a better ability. I do, however, agree that Pangoro has its own boon with an arguably better STAB combo and a less common 4x weakness, but it is very susceptible to status and also very susceptible to being worn down if it is running Life Orb and lacks Drain Punch.

Nidoking

B+ to A- (Agree)

I feel like this is above par compared to the other mons currently in B+ as I agree the mixed set is one of the main reasons to use Nidoking as the all out special attacker is done better by Nidoqueen in my opinion. I don't have much to say since I don't use Nidoking all that much, but I am in agreement with what WanderingWobbuffet said. Its plethora of coverage allows it to have a very effective mixed set and can be an amazing lure as well.

Mega Beedrill

A+ to A/A- (Disagree)

Mega Beedrill is too good right now on any offense team as the utility of U-turning out on its counters + Adaptability-boosted STABs is amazing for any offensive team that wants access to VoltTurn. While it is susceptible to any strong neutral physical priority and relies on Protect for a safe Mega Evolution, Mega Beedrill is nearly invaluable on offense which is a really good playstyle in the current UU metagame and as such Mega Beedrill is fine where it is.

Feraligatr

S to A+ (Agree)

While I used to be a big proponent for a suspect test as this thing wrecked offense and balance with Dragon Dance sets, I am in agreement with YABO. While all of S rank are "universally good" as YABO stated, Feraligatr isn't. Most teams that carry Gatr have to have something else for Fire-types as Feraligatr is a bad Fire resist, which ends up compounding weaknesses most of the time. Another problem Gatr has is Whimsicott, which has been on the rise recently to combat the strong Dragons we currently have. Whimsicott not only has super effective STAB against Gatr, but it also has access to Prankster Encore, meaning even DD variants are forced to continue setting up and losing momentum by having to switch out.

Other Ideas brought up casually

Cobalion to S? (Kind of feel like this would be a very valid discussion as I feel it is truly on the fence between A+ and S)

 

[Aquadext]

In my opinion Cobalion is not good enough for S rank. I know it is very versatile and compacts many roles in one teamslot (which is pretty nice when you have that 6 teamslots syndrome ~_~), and checks many threatening mons, but it has some flaws: it has a poor Atk stat before a boost (even +2 STAB Close Combat fails to KO some not-that-bulky mons), and low SpD mean it can't switch into as many special attacks as it wants. It is also setup fodder for dangerous mons such as Chandelure and Doublade.

It is still very good, and deserves its title as the best Fighting-type in the tier, but it's quite not at the level of Suicune or Reuniclus.

 

[Adaam]

Cobalion to S seems very interesting. It is by far the most used mon of mine being on like 90% of my teams but obviously that doesn't have weight in overall viability. If it goes to S it probably will be for the same reason Aero was S: it checks 1000 things while having 1000 possible move sets. Nothing else checks Beedrill, Hydreigon, Fairies, Lucario, Krook, Snorlax, Mamo kinda, Kyurem, Roserade, Tyrantrum, Aero, and the list goes on while also having a jaw droppingly wide support movepool. T-wave, toxic, volt switch, taunt, Magnet Rise, double dance, and most importantly rocks just make it stupidly splashable. My only gripe is that it has a decent amount of checks, including the most common and best mons in the tier like Salamence, Suicune, and Reuniclus. However I believe the team compression it provides outweighs whatever flaws it has so I'd put it in S.

Gatr to A+ is something I disagree with though. It doesn't even need to set up to rip teams apart. If a team lacks one of the like three Gatr "counters" you can use to take out at least one mon a game that is preventing your teammates to break stuff because they can't risk switching and giving a free set up. Bring it in on a Florges and suddenly the opponent is either forced to sack it to put it in RK range or switch out and risk facing a 100% +1 or +2 attack Gatr.

 

[ehT]

Espeon for B​

Now that the CM stallbreaking set has been discovered, I think B Rank is a fair place for Espeon. I think it's a really cool middle ground between Reuniclus and Nasty Plot Azelf in terms of being able to shit on fat teams -- it can block status like Reuni (as well as Taunt and Encore!), but it also has an easier time versus offense like Azelf, since it can outspeed and slay common Dark types with Dazzling Gleam. The ever-present hazard mind-games with Espeon are also a nice plus, since it can deter Rocks throughout the game and then set up mid to late game. I think it gets a bad rap, despite the hype right now, because of its reputation as a super predictable low ladder mon ("My hazard setter is out. He has an Espeon. I wonder what the fuck is gonna happen next!"), and lots of people are sleeping on it right now because of they think you're just gonna mindlessly throw it in on your Azelf / Coba / Nidoqueen, which a smart player can take advantage of.

Amph for B+
​

It makes me really sad to say, because Mega Amph is one of my favorite mons, but I think I agree with this one. The problem with it is, aside from the whole Mega cost everyone goes on about, is that it's not quite sure what it wants to be. It wants to be a Volt Switch pivot, but it doesn't have the speed to be an offensive one or the recovery to be a consistent defensive one (holy shit if this thing got Slack Off or something it would be amazing, but as it stands it can only use its bulk once or twice of it doesn't have Rest). It wants to do all the things that other Electric types do as well, i.e. check Suicune, but only the offensive set can do that if it switches in on the first CM, and even then it only wins by the skin of its teeth due to it being so much slower. It's bulky as hell and strong as hell, but it just has a really awkward niche that makes it hard to justify over other Electric types.

(Thought I'd drop a source cause I couldn't link directly)
Houndoom for B+
​

Hooooly shit yes. I am so happy that this thing is getting hype again cause it's honestly my favorite Mega. If you go back like 10 pages in this thread you can see the essay I wrote to get Houndoom pushed to B, so I'll just recap lol. This thing is crazy right now, since 115 Speed, Fire / Dark STAB, and Nasty Plot are such an insane combination. The unpredictable 4th moveslot is also really cool, although Protect or Taunt are gonna be your best options 9 times out of 10, since they help against offence and fat teams, respectively. Dog is just really threatening right now for any playstyle, and really should move up (I'd even go so far as to agree with NV for A-), cause it's sure as shit more viable than Pangoro and Noivern.

Taxicrak for A
​

Even with the rise of the Nasty Plot set thanks to Yifeng, I don't think Toxicroak should rise. It's definitely at the higher end of A-, since being able to drink hot water while setting up is some amazing utility, but I wouldn't put it on the same level as Blastoise and Heracross. Both of its sets are pretty strong (you should've seen my face when a +2 Sucker Punch killed my Hydreigon at half, lol), and each can lure out the checks of the other, but depending on your set, you're blown back by so many common offensive threats (Crobat, Infernape, Krookodile, Mega Pert, Hydreigon, Mence, Entei, even fast Kyurem), and if you're SD, you basically have to choose what hard walls you, which is more of a curse than a blessing. Toxicroak is great at what it does, and its Water immunity gives it crazy utility, but I don't think it's as powerful as Blastoise, Nidoqueen, or Mienshao, and it's definitely not better than Lucario, a very similar, but faster and stronger mon.

 

[Omfuga]

I apologize for inactivity recently and thanks a lot to Dod for doing the changes for me! I'll put my opinion on each of these, and I only really disagree with gatr dropping lol

Also you guys keep posting as if SD gatr doesn't exist... DD gatr isn't even the best set, so I don't know why you guys are failing to at least mention SD.

 

[TheMasterOP]

Nominated Haxorus to B- Rank despite having a decent stat speed and an amount of brutal attack has several points as it is against this Pokemon as competing with Salamence and tyrantrum which do their work well Set up sweeper because they have more opportunities easily booster .

 

[rs]

There are a lot of noms being thrown out there O_O, here's my take on most of them. (Sorry in advance for the long post)

Vaporeon: B- to C (DISAGREE): I'm probably the only one that's disagreeing with this one, but I've used Vaporeon extensively and I personally think it's still the best Wish Passer over Alomomola/Blissey/Florges/w/e in the tier due to its access to Baton Pass. Slow Wish-Baton Passing is HUGE to heal up other walls without recovery, I've been using other walls coupled with Vap that don't have reliable recovery like Mega Aggron, Doublade, Empoleon, Whims, etc and getting all their health back for late-game with one BP is SO nice. Other Wish Passers like Blissey and Alomomola would be forced to hard switch into the Wish recipient, which could possibly make or break a game at times, whereas Vaporeon could just get the slow BP off. Sure, Vaporeon has to run Protect on all its sets due to the fact it doesn't have Regenerator like Alomomola or Soft-Boiled like Blissey, but I still don't think that small flaw warrants it to drop to C.

Mega Ampharos: A- to B+ (DISAGREE): This is another one I disagree with. I know there are better Megas than Amphy like Mega Bee, Aero, Swampert, etc but Mega Ampharos has some really nice qualities that I feel should keep it at A-. Everytime I play against this monster, I find it extremely hard to switch into to be honest, due to its great coverage and sheer power. STAB Dragon Pulse and (a slow) Volt Switch can do some major damage to teams, not to mention its access to Focus Blast as well, so Ground-Types like Krookodile and Mamoswine can't switch-in confidently (even though Dragon Pulse 2HKOs either way, but these 2 force it out) and to hit Steel-Types like Mega Aggron. But yeah, keep this at A- imo, momentum/switch advantage is huge in this tier.

Toxicroak: A- to A: (AGREE): I think the discovery of the Nasty Plot set was the basis for this nom (Kinda reminds me of the CM Florges set helping it rise to A+), and rightfully so. As of right now in this meta, I think it's the best set for Toxicroak, with its STAB Sludge Wave and STAB priority move in Vacuum Wave, not to mention its ability to run Dark Pulse or HP Ice to donk things like Doublade and Gligar after +2 from Nasty Plot. Here's some calcs demonstrating its power at +2.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 24+ SpD Florges: 374-445 (103.8 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Dark Pulse vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 390-460 (122.2 - 144.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 390-460 (108.6 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 346-408 (104.5 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Toxicroak Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 484-572 (145.3 - 171.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I think we all know of its great ability in Dry Skin as well (especially with the influx of Bulky Water-Types in the tier), so I won't go into that. But yeah, Toxicroak definitely needs to rise to A

Escavalier: B to B+ (AGREE): Uh yeah this Pokemon is really good right now tbh, I've played around with it on ladder a couple times and its always been extremely effective. The set dodmen posted is really nice as well, but I don't think there's much more to be said, as everything has been said :]. Move this thing up.

Espeon: C to...B? (AGREE): Espeon's speed tier is huge right now, especially with all these Cobalions running around and stuff like that. I has a lot of nice sets atm, such as Dual Screens, CM Sweeper (tears apart stall), Specs, and All-Out Attacker, so it does have a vast movepool. The fact that it can be relatively unpredictable, block status/phazers/entry hazards, AND can break down certain playstyles I think warrants it to rise to AT LEAST B, maybe even B+ because of those qualities

Mega Beedrill: A+ to A/A- (DISAGREE): Considering this Pokemon was brought up for S rank awhile ago, I don't think there's any way that this could happen, especially since the only meta change that happened since then was Hoopa dropping. I think all has been said though, momentum creator, sheer power of Adaptability + STABs, access to Knock off, etc. Keep this at A+

Feraligatr: S to A+ (DISAGREE): Uh yeah I honestly see no way of this happening. SD Gatr can rip apart Stall with relative ease due to the huge amount of power it has at +2 coupled with its Life Orb and Sheer Force. The DD set has the potential to rip apart any playstyle if it gets the opportunity to set-up. After it sets up its almost guaranteed to get atleast 1 kill. Its wallbreaking and sweeping capabilities are too great for it to have a place in A+.

I haven't experienced the other noms (Pangoro, Mega Doom, Nidoking) enough to say anything lengthy about them, but yeah, these are my opinions on the other current noms :]

 

[eren]

There are a lot of noms being thrown out there O_O, here's my take on most of them. (Sorry in advance for the long post)

Vaporeon: B- to C (DISAGREE): I'm probably the only one that's disagreeing with this one, but I've used Vaporeon extensively and I personally think it's still the best Wish Passer over Alomomola/Blissey/Florges/w/e in the tier due to its access to Baton Pass. Slow Wish-Baton Passing is HUGE to heal up other walls without recovery, I've been using other walls coupled with Vap that don't have reliable recovery like Mega Aggron, Doublade, Empoleon, Whims, etc and getting all their health back for late-game with one BP is SO nice. Other Wish Passers like Blissey and Alomomola would be forced to hard switch into the Wish recipient, which could possibly make or break a game at times, whereas Vaporeon could just get the slow BP off. Sure, Vaporeon has to run Protect on all its sets due to the fact it doesn't have Regenerator like Alomomola or Soft-Boiled like Blissey, but I still don't think that small flaw warrants it to drop to C.

I dont understand how being forced to run protect is a "small" flaw. Being able to run Wish, Scald, Toxic, Knock Off, Ice Beam, or Protect in the case of Alomomola grants similar momentum for a stall team even when being forced to hard switch. Especially of Vapo is forced to be running Wish, Protect, BP / Heal bell / Toxic / Ice Beam, and Scald. While BP allows you to circumvent any doubles or predictions, the sheer utility of Knock Off, Toxic, or Ice Beam or Roar and Calm Mind in the case of Stall benefits stall so much, especially when you can get rid of items, which helps rack up hazard damage by removing the ubiquitous Leftovers, Black Sludge, Snowball on Cobalion (high five me for sick joke), etc or just Roaring out threats with Cune. The severe 4MSS on Vapo is also extremely limiting its use as a bully water in general, as most stalls can generally afford to run one. Losing Roar and CM from Cune or Knock Off, Ice Beam, or Toxic from Alo just makes Vapo completely outshined IMO.

I agree with everything else. :)

 

[Ununhexium]

Yo if we're gonna talk about Fighting-types with good NP sets can we talk about Lucario too? It's actually a REALLY good set, I might even argue better than SD because everyone always expects SD only to get their Cobalion or Krookodile bopped by a +2 Vacuum Wave. Also, while Toxicroak's Water immunity is awesome to have, Lucario (with Focus Blast, which is a viable option) can OHKO Suicune, so it can't safely phaze it out. It's not even like Lucario can't beat Florges either because it has Steel-type STAB. Also, Lucario can OHKO Blissey, which Toxicroak can't. I'm not saying Toxicroak is bad, I'm just saying I don't think a Water immunity alone is enough to warrant a rise over something with more power and Speed.

 

[Vapo]

B- -> C: Sad as it is to see Vaporeon fall from grace, this one's been a long time coming. I don't find myself ever considering Vaporeon for my bulky water slot, and for good reason. It just does not have the proper stat distribution to wall big threats. While it has great HP and decent SpD, its physical defense is horrible. Even with the common physdef heavy EV spread, Vaporeon loses to things that your bulky water slot is supposed to check, such as Feraligatr, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Swampert, Mamoswine, and plenty of others. Vaporeon's only niche is baton passing wishes, and when it runs Baton Pass over something like Roar or Haze it becomes set up fodder for every single bulky set up sweeper in the tier. Overall, it's a pretty underwhelming pokemon that has its role of bulky water filled by almost any other water type in the tier, arguably even by Milotic at this point, so I'd say drop it to C.

A- -> A: I already made a post on this here, but yeah make this happen please.

C -> B: Yes, yes, yes. I honestly have no clue why this thing has been ranked as low as it has for so long, especially after Alakazam's rise to OU. It may be slower than Azelf and lack Nasty Plot, but it definitely has pretty relevant advantages over it, notably Magic Bounce. While Espeon is not bulky by any means and other cannot switch into hazard setters without getting KO'd, just having a Magic Bouncer puts pressure on your opponent and makes them less likely to set their hazards. This indirect form of hazard control, on top of amazing offensive stats (higher Spa than Azelf and fantastic Speed tier) makes Espeon an great role compressor on offensive teams that cannot afford to give up a team slot for a defogger or spinner, since most common hazard removers in the tier kill momentum (with the exception of Offensive Defog Salamence and Mega Blastoise). While Azelf is admittedly better in many situations, Espeon definitely has its niche in Magic Bounce while still posing a huge threat to much of the tier, so I'd say bump it up to at least B.

This wasn't previously brought up, but I think it's an appropriate nomination:

A -> A-: This thing used to be the premier set up sweeper, but it definitely has taken multiple hits over the past few metagame shifts. Doublade and Cobalion, two of Curselax's biggest checks, have both had large increases in usage recently and basically shut it down completely. The most common bulky set up sweepers, Reuniclus and Suicune, have very little trouble beating Curselax 1v1, with the former outdamaging and potentially 2HKOing Snorlax with Focus Blast at +1, and the latter almost always running Roar on top of Calm Mind. With extremely powerful physical attackers such as Mamoswine and Feraligatr in the tier, Snorlax has even more trouble setting up and sweeping. Both can 2HKO Snorlax from full and 3HKO it at +1 Defense, meaning they will more often than not beat it 1v1, or at least take it down to the point where it is easily picked off by a teammate. Snorlax is still a great pokemon, don't get me wrong, but it definitely is not nearly as effective now as it was a few months ago, so I think dropping it to A- would be appropriate.

 

[LRXC]

I thought I would give my opinions on the Viability Ranking Switches...

Vaporeon B-to C... (DISAGREE)
Vaporeon is severely underrated and I feel deserves more attention. I think it is still one of the best Bulky Water types in the tier, as it can perform many roles. I honestly think Vaporeon outdoes Alomomola, Milotic, and somewhat Suicune, in that it can pull wish protect very well, and has access to cleric support in heal bell, and has baton pass, for wish passing and late switches for momentum. Vaporeon also has a nice ability in Water Absorb, making it able to switch into attack very well and provide support for mons weak to water. Vaporeon should not move to C for those reasons.

Mega-Ampharos A-to B+...(AGREE)
Mega-Ampharos is a beastly tank, and can take on many roles, just not super effectively. I feel like Amphy is average at everything, It can go on Voltturn teams, but just doesnt do much for them. It has very mediocre coverage, especially when running rest-talk set, which by the way, it very average at most, and can be setup fodder. Its speed is also underwhelming, being outpaced my many powerful mons, and then losing momentum. It is also very suspectable to toxic, which puts a timer on this tank. It was a hard decision, but I think Amphy barely makes the cut to be moved down to B+

Toxicroak A-to A...(DISAGREE)
I think Toxicroak is a great mon dont get me wrong, its just I dont think it is so good it deserves to be of A rank. Sure this thing is a perfect counter to top-tier threat Suicune, and has an amazing ability in Dry Skin, but I think he is just a little underwhelming, and other Fighting types do it better, such as Coballion and Machamp. Toxicroak also has a crippling 4x weakness to Psychic, making is vulnerable to a pretty popular type in UU, with Reuniclus, Cresselia, Azelf, and even Sigilyph. Toxicroak also doesnt have the best defenses or speed, making its swords dance set a little tricky to pull off. Overall this guy is pretty good, but not really good, so I think it is good where it is.

Escavalier B to B+...(AGREE)
I think this guy is a threat, and should be prepared for. This guy works great as a bulky offensive mon, and really packs a punch with dual stab of MegaHorn and Iron Head, as well as rounding out with coverage with moves like Drill Run, poison jab, and Arial Ace, while having some utility moves in pursuit and knock off. This guy runs great with a swords dance set, making him hit even harder while tanking hits in the process. This guy also benefits from awesome typing, with only a 4x weakness to fire, which can be covered with a flash fire mon like Arcanine or Chandelure. I also like using him on Trick Room teams, where he puts in the work, setting up a swords dance and cleaning up. That is why this guy deserves to be B+

Mega-Beedrill A+to A/A- (AGREE)
I honestly think this Bee should be A, not A+. He is too fragile to fufill a lot of roles, and just provides easy predictions whenever it u-turns. It also has limited moveslots, due to it pretty much having to run protect. Which can make it set-up fodder as well. Though Beedrill packs a MASSIVE punch with a very high base attack and adaptability boost, it is very weak to priority, maybe not mach punch and vaccum wave, but priority like extremespeed, ice shard, and bullet punch. Also, Beedrill has trouble with physical tanks, who can take a hit and then easily OHKO Beedrill.

Pangoro B to B+ (AGREE)
I really do think Pangoro deserves more love, It is a monster and many people overlook it because it is BL. This thing runs a couple of sets very well, including choice band and life orb. He even can counter his enemy fairy types very well with a powerful gunk shot. With utility moves in knock off, pursuit, and drain punch, he can stay alive as well, while demolishing opponets. He has a high HP stat and works well on Bulky Offensive Teams and Cores alike. His typing is also really great two, and has very good dual stab.

That is all the opinions I have on the mons, I dont really have an Opinion on Espeon, Mega-Houndoom, and Nidoking as I dont use them a whole lot, and Feraligatr I have mixed feeling about. Sorry about the long post but I wanted to get my opinions out there! I hope you enjoyed reading this!

 

[Mar1onette]

-->B/B+

This is a different nomination from the current one's but oh well, I think zoroark is very underrated and its capabilities are as well. Zoroark is extremely diverse and can be easily paired up with a lot of pokes via special or physical threats. Zororak is extremely diverse in its move sets (Example: Focus Blast, Flamethrower, grass knot, and u-turn) it can run specs, SD, Nasty plot, and mix attacker making it difficult for a person to predict what zoroark is running and what it could possibly be impersonating which could really be vital in the field of mind games. hoopa-C is really the only thing that has changed in the meta as of late and its has come more into zoroark's favor imo, zoroark can effectively impersonate a wall to lure in hoopa-C to knock it out or impersonate hoopa-C itself baiting in any type of dark or ghost types to stay in. In conclusion zoroark is unique from any other dark type, pivot, great diversity, mind game capabilities, and with a great special attack, attack, and speed stat to compliment all of its capabilities in battle.
Zororak is very underrated IMO and think it should be ranked higher n_n.

 

[Alfalfa]

I dont understand how being forced to run protect is a "small" flaw. Being able to run Wish, Scald, Toxic, Knock Off, Ice Beam, or Protect in the case of Alomomola grants similar momentum for a stall team even when being forced to hard switch. Especially of Vapo is forced to be running Wish, Protect, BP / Heal bell / Toxic / Ice Beam, and Scald. While BP allows you to circumvent any doubles or predictions, the sheer utility of Knock Off, Toxic, or Ice Beam or Roar and Calm Mind in the case of Stall benefits stall so much, especially when you can get rid of items, which helps rack up hazard damage by removing the ubiquitous Leftovers, Black Sludge, Snowball on Cobalion (high five me for sick joke), etc or just Roaring out threats with Cune. The severe 4MSS on Vapo is also extremely limiting its use as a bully water in general, as most stalls can generally afford to run one. Losing Roar and CM from Cune or Knock Off, Ice Beam, or Toxic from Alo just makes Vapo completely outshined IMO.

I agree with everything else. :)

I am just curious: why would Alomomola run Ice Beam when it possesses such a pitiful special attack?

 

[Serperior for Uber]

Its pretty niche but it does 2hko Salamence so its a stop of sorts to DD Variants instead of relying on scald burns.