CAP 21 CAP 21 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

[nyttyn]

I agree with burn as a possible solution, but at this point we should probably hold back on discussion in THAT much depth. For now, the only mon I'd really like to push as needing an answer against is Manaphy if this thing has any hope of being used on Balance since Manphy kind of rips them apart. I still think CAP21's typing means it'll be better suited on offense but if the balance dream wants to be kept alive, cap21 needs to at least keep manaphy from safely tail glowing.

Also, Ice Shard is not a solution and I'm frankly baffled people are pushing it as a potential solution. Ignoring the fact that a unstab'd ice priority move of such a weak BP is pretty much a dead moveslot, it is not even that good at what it is supposed to do.

-1 252+ Atk Roggenrola Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-T: 188-224 (58.9 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
190 attack stat ice shard. 190 attack, max/max, and it fails to ohko landorus-T after Rocks. Gunk Shot + Ice Shard can't even kill without rocks and has a fairly decent chance of failing to KO even with rocks up (low rolls fail to KO, gunk shot miss is obviously a failed KO). I mean obviously we're going to be pushing a large offensive stat since this thing can't use a life orb, but 190 seems a bit high even then.

For the record it's literally impossible for CAP 21 to garuntee a OHKO Landorus-T with Ice Shard. 255 Attack only gets a 12.5% chance to OHKO after rocks. Guaranteeing a 2HKO assuming gunk shot doesn't miss requires a 209 attack stat, which is absolutely way too high to be remotely considered a possibility.


I think CAP21 should just accept the fact that Landorus-T and Garchomp bodies it and should compensate elsewhere.


p.s. don't calc w/ life orb. megastones eat up the item slot.

 

[Project_Mars]

252+ Atk Abomasnow Gunk Shot vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 180-213 (49.3 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (100 base attack)

So Manaphy can be handled alright if it switches into CAP21, even without coverage. (Even then, Power Whip is a guarenteed 2HKO until you start to go over 145 base attack.) Gunk Shot seems to generally be a pretty good way at dealing with several of the mentioned water-types too, getting a 2HKO on Keldeo, Politoed, and Rotom-W (again, with 100 Base Attack.) So while CAP21 doesnt like Water-types, it isnt inherently defenseless if they try to muscle it out.

 

[jas61292]

Ok, its just about time to wrap this thread up. Before I actually say what we should threaten and be threatened by, there are some things I want to put out there.

First, it is important to remember that this list is not exhaustive. In each category, I only listed examples, and even for the categories themselves, we are bound to threaten or be threatened by things that are not on any part of this list. That's fine, so long as we remember to use the things that are on the list as guidelines going forward.

Second, and most importantly, know that this is exactly what it says on the thread: a list of threats. This is not a list of checks or counters. It is possible for us to threaten a Pokemon without being able to switch in easily. It is possible for a Pokemon to threaten us, even if we can hit it back very hard. It is even possible for us to threaten and be threatened by the same Pokemon, depending on game situation. So, while we need to keep in mind this list going forward, we do not need to, and definitely should not even attempt to try to be a hard counter for ever Pokemon on the first list (or be hard countered by everything on the second). For instance, Water-types are listed as something we want to threaten. This doe not mean we need to give ourselves Water Absorb so we can counter them. It does mean that we cannot let them switch in on us and force us out with ease. How we do this is what future topics will need to discuss. The thing we do have to worry about with this list is making sure that a matchup on this list is not neutral due to mutual inability to harm, or one sided or hugely favorable in the wrong direction (ie if we by some miracle ended up being a hard counter for Scizor, we majorly screwed up somewhere).

So, with that said, here is what will be what we are looking at going forward.

Pokemon we want CAP21 to threaten:
Fairy-type Pokemon: including Altaria, Azumarill, Clefable, and Sylveon
Flying-type Pokemon who lack a secondary Ground or Steel type: including Charizard [all forms], Mandibuzz, Talonflame, and Tornadus-T
Water-types that don't threaten us with secondary STAB: including Keldeo, Manaphy, Politoed and Rotom-W
Other Pokemon naturally threatened by our typing that do not naturally threaten back: including Ice-types like Kyurem and Weavile and Bug-types like Scolipede and Volcarona

Pokemon we want CAP21 to be threatened by:
Ground-type Pokemon: including Excadrill, Garchomp and Landorus-T
Steel-type Pokemon: including Ferrothorn, Metagross, and Scizor
Psychic-Type Pokemon when they run STAB: Including Alakazam, Latios, and Slowbro

Again, remember, this is just a list of threats. There are many ways a Pokemon can threaten another, and we will likely have different interactions with each Pokemon on these lists. What is important is to make sure we attempt to keep the Pokemon listed here on the right lists as we go through the project.