All Gens The "What if" thread - Topic #66 : Physical-Special split in ADV

[Fortune]

Just thought I would compile a list of possible Air Balloon users and explain their usefulness/how they would affect the metagame.

Only Tyranitar set I can really see using this is DD, but even then, I can't see it being that useful. Basically every EQ user has a way of dealing with it. It can't set up on Hippo without giving it free recovery or getting phazed out, Gliscor can taunt it with ease, Scarf Flygon can switch out and deal with it at a later time and Swampert can phaze. Only thing this is setting up on is CB Dugtrio which is extremely uncommon, and if it's not Choice Band, it can Stone Edge-EQ combo for the kill. TTar would be a bad Balloon user.

Heatran would probably be the most common Balloon user. Balloon would also make it run Hidden Power a lot more than Will-O/Explosion, as mentioned before. This would be to not lose Heatran ditto wars. Overall, this would be a pretty good item for Tran and would function a lot like it does in later gens. The increase in use of Hidden Power might make it a bit more unpredictable. One would have to scout whether it's Grass or Ice (or even Electric oo).

Honestly, I think Lucario would be a really good user of this item. We all know how risky it can be giving this thing free set up, and when you make one of it's weaknesses an immunity, it makes it that much harder to avoid set-up. I think a lot of things would be forced to run certain coverage moves (ie Superpower on Scarftar... EQ's usage would be limited).

Basically, read above. Empoleon would be another fantastic user of this item. Empoleon and Lucario are such fearsome sweepers thanks to their amazing typings and ability to set up.. If you take away one of their few weaknesses (a common type at that) and make it an immunity, they are that much more deadly.

This thing would really just be a better check to stuff like DDTar and Superrachi. I can see Flash Cannon being used over Explosion a lot more on Balloon variants just for the opportunity to touch TTar before it breaks your balloon. Another scenario I can see playing out is coming in on a Scarf Flygon and then just Tbolting any non-ground that wants to come in, getting off big damage. I can see HP Grass rising in usage on this thing too, since you can now come in on Swampert with relative ease.

Anyways, that's all I got. Probably spent too much time on this, but I'm a big fan of theorymonning n_n

 

[BKC]

Balloon Lucario would actually be able to switch into standard Gliscor.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Balloon Lucario would actually be able to switch into standard Gliscor.

More like Jirachi can. Lucario would only be able to do it with Ice Punch (and still could miss in sand). You'd just get Taunted and possibly U-turned on since he's slower. Jirachi outspeeds for at least one turn of CM/Sub.

 

[BKC]

Standard as in Toxic. U-turn would shoot up in popularity just for it. Ice Punch becomes way more viable as a result and means he's less eager to Taunt you.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

That's what I mean. Toxic or not, you'll either have Taunt or U-turn, so your only option is to attack anyway, no threat of setting up (unless you're forgoing SD for all out attacker). I mean, it's a way to force Gliscor out if you really need it, but it's hardly worth dropping LO for.

Ice Punch was already viable for Gliscor anyway, ever since the stallbreaker set got popular back in the day. Still shaky with Sand Veil though.

 

[Typhlito]

Very good. So next up, we have what if steel types were neutral against dark and ghost attacks in BW?

As many of you know, this is a change that has already been done in oras but the meats between the two gens are quite different. So there should be a difference in how this change affects the meta as well. Would the change make new threats appear while current threats fade away? You tell me!

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

No new threats really appear in my opinion. Without XY's flagship Dark move, Knock Off, the attack type isn't that amazing in BW compared to other ones. The only Pokemon that truly appreciate the change in OU are Gengar with its strong Shadow Ball and Tyranitar with its own STABs, especially Gengar. Hydreigon could care less because it already has the Fire moves for the Steels, which some are quad weak to (I mean, I guess you could spam Dark Pulse and worry less about prediction, you just need to watch for Fighting-types switching in).

What's more important are the affect on the Steels themselves now. Jirachi drops in viability with the new weakness. That's one thing Hydreigon's DP can be good for, more reliable than Fire Blast.

It becomes harder to switch into Gengar, which would fit on a lot of offensive teams, clearing paths for other types that have trouble with Steels.

 

[Finchinator]

I mean, outside of the obvious Dark STAB on already established pokemon like Tyranitar and Hydreigon becoming even more dangerous, not too much would drastically change, in my opinion (Dark Pulse would probably go from being a front-slash to being a staple on Hydreigon, CB Tar builds would grow a bit more common, and more support Tyranitar sets would be carrying Crunch...not that too many forgo it now, but it would make the choice a bit easier to make when deciding between all the coverage options and the few STAB moves it has at its disposal). Gengar would see a bit of new life after stagnating in recent months in terms of metagame trends, oddballs like Weavile and maybe even Bisharp could see an increase in viability, but not enough to launch them into the realm of top tier threats.

I don't think the usage of steel types would be hindered much at all because they still are necessary on each and every team - hell, many teams require or appreciate multiple steel types - simply due to the abundance of strong dragon types and the overall convenience of the steel type defensively. I could see Jirachi maybe dropping to A+ (well, it's already there technically, but most seem to believe it belongs in S) and maybe Scizor's bulky SD sets taking a slight hit, but nothing too substantial. Skarmory and Ferrothorn will still be top of the line spike setters, Heatran will not take too big of a hit, and nothing else will mind too much either.

 

[Typhlito]

Fair enough. How about this one then? What if rapid spin and spikes existed in RBY?

So in this scenario, any pokemon that ever learned either move would have it. Also, you would only be able to stack 1 spike like in GSC. Would it change the metagame at all? Would new threats appear while old threats fade? Would some current threats become better than they already are? You tell me!

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

At first thought, you'd think Spikes wouldn't be too great. If I'm not mistaken, only Cloyster and Omastar gets it and Rapid Spin shouldn't be too hard to pull off.


That said, Spikes should have a big effect on how Pokemon can take attacks, especially something like Exeggutor taking Blizzards, possibly getting KOed quicker than normal. Switching to conserve mons would be a punished tactic and could be devastating in addition to full paralysis and whatever.


Cloyster shouldn't be too bad to be required to use. It gets both moves and has Clamp, which would fuck shit over. It does have limited space though (has two STABs and Explosion).


Starmie shouldn't run Rapid Spin. Didn't have the space or time for it. Gengar would be able to block you easily anyway. In fact, most of the Rapid Spinners can be blocked by Gengar. Sandslash can drop Swords Dance for it though and should be easy to get spins with, but I don't think it's worth it when Cloyster can do it.


Either way, Gengar would be on a ton of teams, because the extra damage should make a big impact on the late game. Hyper Beam would be even better too.

 

[Prinz]

Gengar would be only great at spinblocking against Cloyster tho, Starmie's Psychic 2HKOs it and Sandslash's EQ has some chances to OHKO it

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Gengar would be only great at spinblocking against Cloyster tho, Starmie's Psychic 2HKOs it and Sandslash's EQ has some chances to OHKO it

Starmie is not dropping Blizzard or Thunderbolt to run both Rapid Spin and Psychic. Not running full coverage plus Thunder Wave is certainly not worth the Spikes control. Free switches to their Exeggutor or Slowbro/Starmie (the latter won't ever have to worry about being paralyzed).

 

[Prinz]

Psychic / Thunderbolt / Recover / Thunder Wave is a perfect viable moveset in today's metagame, Starmie would probably run Rapid Spin over Thunder Wave if anything

 

[Isa]

no idea what drugs youre on if you say spikes would be bad - in fact Aerodactyl Legend is wrong on almost every account from my PoV

a layer of spikes in RBY would be absolutely huge and would easily become "gengar/cloyster/tauros/exeggutor/chansey/snorlax (maybe starmie somewhere): the metagame"

RBY is THE generation of double switches and predictions, and only zapdos and dragonite are immune to spikes, whereas nothing has leftovers. spikes would make proper double switches absolutely terrifying to face.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

no idea what drugs youre on if you say spikes would be bad - in fact Aerodactyl Legend is wrong on almost every account from my PoV

a layer of spikes in RBY would be absolutely huge and would easily become "gengar/cloyster/tauros/exeggutor/chansey/snorlax (maybe starmie somewhere): the metagame"

RBY is THE generation of double switches and predictions, and only zapdos and dragonite are immune to spikes, whereas nothing has leftovers. spikes would make proper double switches absolutely terrifying to face.

You definitely took what I said the wrong way. The first paragraph literally stated the only miniscule couple of points that could be against Spikes, then the rest goes into part of the positives. I even said twice it would have a big effect.

I guess if you're talking about even thinking bad about Spikes at all, then OK (I guess?). "At first you'd think" followed by "That said" clearly isn't cementing my own opinion on the move though.

*Edit*

OK, and there's also the Starmie topic I may be wrong about, if you'd like to discuss on that. Would you drop Blizzard and T-Wave for Psychic and Rapid Spin? I think that's a huge price. You're also giving a better opening for Dragonite and Zapdos, which should also be good in the meta.

 

[lilyhollow]

Would spikes not be pretty good for wrap? Need Cloyster for spikes in the first place, sucks to switch out to waste wrap PP, and Dragonite itself is spikes-immune. I imagine this would also be nice for Zapdos. Again, spikes immune, but also spikes more than doubles the damage Golem takes switching into drill peck?

Incidentally, if there are people who want to actually test any of these things out, particularly gen1 stuff, I would be down to implement some stuff

 

[Jellicent]

If "any pokemon that ever learned either move would have it" includes Golem, it'd be happy to drop Body Slam for the extra utility. Wrap teams look better, since they already fit Gengar and Cloyster on the team pretty easily and the chip damage always helps. Toxic / Spikes / Wrap teams could be pretty cool, actually; kinda like TSS but with Wrap hax. Omastar looks solid in UU. Omanyte, on the other hand, only has good matchups against Ponyta and Doduo down in LC :(

 

[Isa]

You definitely took what I said the wrong way. The first paragraph literally stated the only miniscule couple of points that could be against Spikes, then the rest goes into part of the positives. I even said twice it would have a big effect.

I guess if you're talking about even thinking bad about Spikes at all, then OK (I guess?). "At first you'd think" followed by "That said" clearly isn't cementing my own opinion on the move though.

*Edit*

OK, and there's also the Starmie topic I may be wrong about, if you'd like to discuss on that. Would you drop Blizzard and T-Wave for Psychic and Rapid Spin? I think that's a huge price. You're also giving a better opening for Dragonite and Zapdos, which should also be good in the meta.

youre making cloyster look bad though, with spikes it has just enough moves to fill a legitimate movepool (spikes/clamp/blizzard/boom or RSpin), so idk why you call it limited space when it has 5 move options full stop

starmie could easily run a rapid spin psychic blizzard recover set, or tbolt etc. compare it to gsc where its offensive role is nonexistent and the support runs free, but no dark types = monopsychic+twave support is feasible if you so wish

gengar fails to block spin from everything in the long run, especially vs starmie because psychic is a 2hko and it outspeeds. cloyster yeah ok, you prevent that spin but you can hit a clamp/blizzard to make gengar pay. besides it's very likely to sleep either way

sandslash REALLY stops gengar from blocking spin lol, but it's a bad mon and should not be used

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

If "any pokemon that ever learned either move would have it" includes Golem, it'd be happy to drop Body Slam for the extra utility.(

Good point. I totally forgot Golem myself. Much better than Sandslash.

youre making cloyster look bad though, with spikes it has just enough moves to fill a legitimate movepool (spikes/clamp/blizzard/boom or RSpin), so idk why you call it limited space when it has 5 move options full stop

How did what I said make it look bad? I only was saying too bad it has to drop a move, because all five are good for it. I lean towards keeping Rapid Spin, obviously, because I think you should spin with that primarily (much more so than Starmie). It's not the dominating the real game currently, so saying that it's not the worse thing in the world to have to use it sounds like a fair statement.

starmie could easily run a rapid spin psychic blizzard recover set, or tbolt etc. compare it to gsc where its offensive role is nonexistent and the support runs free, but no dark types = monopsychic+twave support is feasible if you so wish

Yes, in GSC where the offensive playstyle is completely different than RBY. It can stall out a couple hits with Recover, but it can't play full-on support to maximum potential in RBY. You're losing too much. Yeah, you can run any combination you wish, but you open up a lot of opportunities for certain threats that would really make Spikes over the top. Drop Blizzard, free switch to a ground for their own move (either Earthquake, Body Slam, Substitute, or as Jellicent said, Rapid Spin with Golem. Drop Thunderbolt, free Amnesia/Thunder Wave for Slowbro, who'd have a really fun time with Spikes). Or Exeggutor gets a free switch. No Thunder Wave, probably the best you could run in my opinion, you just need to get paralysis support from other guys.

gengar fails to block spin from everything in the long run, especially vs starmie because psychic is a 2hko and it outspeeds. cloyster yeah ok, you prevent that spin but you can hit a clamp/blizzard to make gengar pay. besides it's very likely to sleep either way

In the long run, of course, but it's the only blocker and would be used a lot and the game would mold to adapt to that, hence the usage of the grounds going up to hit it with Earthquake. Shit, Golem should be decent to use as it does the classic Zapdos countering.

sandslash REALLY stops gengar from blocking spin lol, but it's a bad mon and should not be used

Yeah, the only notable thing is that it can Earthquake Gengar on the switch. I'm not wrong as you said on this because I never said it was amazing and in fact said that it's not worth to use.

 

[Crystal_]

Starmie would always be running rapid spin since it's by far the most effective way to get rid of cloyster's spikes. Just like gsc really, with the difference than in rby Starmie was already a top tier pokemon regardless of spin. Starmie would be in pretty much every team, and Cloyster in probably more than half. I'd expect to see new strategies such as clamp baiting a starmie to capitalize it off with a big hitter or taking advantage of a bait exploded starmie with something like Slowbro.

Now the real question would be if Gengar would actually block the secondary effect of rapid spin. I mean, it's rby we're talking about.

All in all, I'd rate this metagame 7.8/10. Too much water.

 

[Ortheore]

Interesting meta. Lead/Gol/Egg/Chansey/Cloy/Taur is the first team that springs to mind that I'd like to use, covers all the bases in terms of things that are so good you really don't want to not run them (Spin/Sleep/Spikes/Tauros). Come to think of it, Zam would definitely be the best lead for that team.

Otherwise I just wanted to say that Starmie is actually a really flexible pokemon imo with several variations on the same set that are all viable- BlizzBolt may give unresisted coverage, but Psychic is just soooo much better vs Normals that it's easily on par with BlizzBolt. Hell, I don't even like BlizzBolt, I greatly prefer running Psychic somewhere. That's just different coverage combos, which I consider all on the same level of viability. It's only when you start looking at dropping Twave or running MonoMie that you're losing out on viability imo, but those changes are still viable just to a lesser degree.

Talking about Water types lead me to thinking about what stuff drops in usage. Rhydon is severely outclassed by Golem to an even greater extent, Bro struggles to compete with other Water types for a teamslot, Cuno is just lol. Otherwise I can't think of too much.

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Now the real question would be if Gengar would actually block the secondary effect of rapid spin. I mean, it's rby we're talking about.

In before it doesn't clear if it hits a Substitute or instead only clears your opponents side of the field, but yours.

It's only when you start looking at dropping Twave or running MonoMie that you're losing out on viability imo, but those changes are still viable just to a lesser degree.

That's what I'm getting at when it comes down to it. You can't drop all three options because then you're stuck giving free turns to certain Pokemon that switch in. At the end of the day, if I were to run Psychic, I'd drop Thunderbolt for it to hit flyers, grounds, and Exeggutor, while still being able to cripple everything else.

I don't think the classic standard set is useless though. Like Isa said, even Cloyster already threatens Gengar with Clamp/Blizzard. Starmie hits him with Thunder Wave if it expects the switch. Eventually, he gets worn down extremely fast, and Cloyster should be able to get a spin easily afterwards, allowing you to save a teamslot. It would require an extra couple of switches, granted, so I would see the problem there.

 

[Porii Sames]

spikes would be godlike in rby. not sure how much the meta would be shifting in general, but they'd be a general nuisance to play around. i guess shit like slowbro doesn't really benefit but if you can make some solid predictions with the legendary birds they'd benefit a lot (rocks don't mind switching into zapdos/moltres, but when they take 12.5 every time on top of the predicted drill/fblast it's going to sting) plus they're immune to spikes. zap in particular gains a lot of 2hkos, like on egg. in general it just makes things more offensive than they already are as there's no defensive way to abuse them really.

 

[Typhlito]

Nice! Here's our next topic. What if calm mind exists in GSC?

So in this scenario, every pokemon that learns the move in adv gets it here. I'm assuming that it would make a huge difference to the way gsc is played today when something like growth is a viable move for sweeping. So would current threats become more threatening than before or will new threats rise while old threats fall? You tell me!

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

We're all salivating at the thought of Calm Mind Raikou. Throw that shit on every team.

Suicune will do well with it obviously. Not much to say there. It's going to take the Electric attacks a little better and put pressure on Snorlax.

EspyJump becomes fully realized, though not too different from the regular Growth Pass.

Alakazam would be an obvious choice with its speed and coverage. That said, it still needs to get past Blissey and Snorlax.

Not much actually gets it. The four listed are the main ones for OU. In general, the game would gets little more offensive and would have to work hard to make sure Raikou would be under control. Snorlax would still be great, as they still need to boost up to be a threat (and Raikou easily switches in to Raikou as well, unless you start running Roar and modifying your Speed to Phaze it out and keep boosting).