CAP 21 CAP 21 - Part 5 - Stat Limits

[HeaLnDeaL]

This next stage is Stat Limits, and it's very important! Our Stats Leader, who will be leading this stage, is the very nerdy sparktrain, so make sure that your posts are generally directed towards him and the questions he asks. sparktrain will be deciding the stat limits for CAP 21 at the conclusion of this thread, based on community input. This is NOT the place where we actually submit stats. That will come later.

These limits will help to define what we consider when making and talking about stat spreads for CAP 21. We will look at limits to CAP 21's physical and special attacking prowess, its physical and special tanking capabilities, and the overall power of its stats.

This is a relatively tricky stage of the process if you're not familiar with what it is we're doing and why we're doing it. For that reason, I strongly encourage those who intend to participate to read the entire OP thoroughly and ask questions where needed.

Please do not poll jump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggesting specific abilities.

Be forewarned that there is no poll for this stage of the CAP. The Stats Leader will decide the stat limits for the CAP upon the conclusion of this thread.

Stat Bias Limits

Stat bias limits set the general stat bias of a Pokemon from an offensive and defensive standpoint. Stat biases are not solely for limiting stats, but they also describe the overall build of the Pokemon in offensive and defensive terms. However, the stat spread is the only part of the project that will be constrained by Stat Bias Limits. There will be four stat biases selected and a total Base Stat Rating (BSR) limit. The Stat Biases are:

Physical Tankiness (PT)

The rating of the Pokémon's physical defense.
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Physical Sweepiness (PS)

The rating of the Pokémon's physical offense.
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Special Tankiness (ST)

The rating of the Pokémon's special defense.
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Special Sweepiness (SS)

The rating of the Pokémon's special offense​

A spreadsheet for calculating the ratings can be found here. If you don't have a spreadsheet program, OpenOffice is free.

If you're a newer member of CAP, we highly recommend that you do some good lurking during this stage in the process. Read this page thoroughly to understand what exactly we're doing here. If you're still confused, check out some of the old Stat Limits Discussion threads for past CAPs in the CAP Process Archive. If you're still uncomfortable with posting here, then I suggest you watch how experienced users post; you can learn a lot from them!

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CAP21 so far:

Typing: Rock/Poison
Ability:
Base - Regenerator / ?????
Mega - Magic Guard

Leadership Team:

jas61292 (he has a cool first name)- Topic Leader
imanalt - Typing Leader
DetroitLolcat - Abilities Leader
sparktrain (aka super nerd)- Stats Leader
HeaLnDeaL- Movepool Leader

Concept:

Name: Typing Underdog

General Description: A Pokémon which utilizes an undervalued typing to its full potential, by playing towards both its strengths and weaknesses.

Justification: Each typing possesses a unique set of characteristics, causing all of them to perform very differently in various aspects of battle. However, not every typing has been granted the opportunity to display this potential, being forced into suboptimal roles by virtue of stats, ability and movepool, and therefore often being labelled as “bad”.
This concept aims to do a detailed analysis on the primary function of such a typing along with its potentially unexplored capabilities, by creating a Pokémon that that emphasizes the typing’s most prominent traits and utilizes them effectively.
This approach will not only allow us to widen our understanding on the unique niche and preferred playstyle of the typing, but will also give us additional insight on the mechanics that lead to success and failure of the typing when comparing CAP to the wielders in the lower tiers.

Questions to be answered:

• What are the most important traits the Pokémon gains from the chosen typing, both positive and negative?
• Is quality or quantity of weaknesses/resistances/immunities more relevant to the chosen typing? What does this mean for the way it is played?
• How significant is the niche provided by the typing in OU? Are there any striking flaws in the typing that can’t be played around and prevent the Pokémon from performing reliably?
• How reliant is the typing on stats, ability and movepool in order to succeed in OU?
• Are the unique characteristics granted by the typing enough to set the Pokemon apart, or does it face strong competition for its role from Pokémon of other types?
• Is there any distinct playstyle that suits the chosen typing the best? Or can the same typing be utilized in an entirely different approach to similar success?
• How important is a type’s versatility for its overall success?
• Is a single Pokémon capable of portraying most relevant aspects of the entire type?

 

[sparktrain]

Hello everyone, and welcome to the Stats Limits stage! This is the thread where we'll determine both the offensive and defensive potential of CAP 21's base form, as well as its Mega Evolution. This is not the thread where we decide CAP 21’s exact stats; this thread is for discussing and setting the limits of CAP 21’s stats to guide Stat Spread Submissions in the next thread.

To define CAP 21's (and Mega CAP 21's) Stat Limits, CAP makes use of these terms: Physical Sweepiness (PS), Special Sweepiness (SS), Physical Tankiness (PT), Special Tankiness (ST), and Base Stat Rating (BSR). To determine specific values for these, CAP makes use of the Base Stat Ratings Calculator, which can be found in the post above mine, which easily allows for any user to plug in numbers to see how it affects a Pokemon's various Stat Ratings without having to worry about doing tedious calculations by hand. Make good use of this tool when forming your arguments!

Before we get started, let's take a look back at our threat list for CAP 21:

Pokemon we want CAP21 to threaten:
Fairy-type Pokemon: including Altaria, Azumarill, Clefable, and Sylveon
Flying-type Pokemon who lack a secondary Ground or Steel type: including Charizard [all forms], Mandibuzz, Talonflame, and Tornadus-T
Water-types that don't threaten us with secondary STAB: including Keldeo, Manaphy, Politoed and Rotom-W
Other Pokemon naturally threatened by our typing that do not naturally threaten back: including Ice-types like Kyurem and Weavile and Bug-types like Scolipede and Volcarona

Pokemon we want CAP21 to be threatened by:
Ground-type Pokemon: including Excadrill, Garchomp and Landorus-T
Steel-type Pokemon: including Ferrothorn, Metagross, and Scizor
Psychic-Type Pokemon when they run STAB: Including Alakazam, Latios, and Slowbro

It's important to keep this list in mind when making your arguments and suggestions. Water-types that don't threaten us with secondary STAB is of particular note at the moment, as this isn't a group of Pokemon that CAP 21's typing naturally threatens, so ensuring we have the proper offensive and / or defensive stats to handle them will be important.

In the previous stage (Mega Ability), we discussed and ultimately decided on the ability, Magic Guard, which puts emphasis on the immunity to several forms of residual damage, preventing CAP 21 from being worn down as easily, while also opening up the possibility of CAP 21 taking advantage of recoil moves (notably STAB Head Smash). Given the physical bias of recoil moves, along with the generally higher power of physical Rock- and Poison-type moves, not to mention the generally specially defensive bias of several of the Pokemon that we’d like for CAP 21 to threaten, it does seem to make sense to favor CAP 21’s Physical Sweepiness over its Special Sweepiness. On the other hand, the argument can easily be made that Special Sweepiness can serve an important role as well, as the threat of burn from Scald and Will-O-Wisp could hamper a physically oriented CAP 21's offensive potential. But exactly how offensively and defensively strong does CAP 21 need to be? Before we get into the nitty-gritty details of it all, let’s have a look at some baseline ratings for some of OU’s Mega Evolutions for reference:

Physical Sweepiness (PS)

Mega Altaria (110 / 80): 139.57
Mega Lopunny (136 / 135): 243.14
Mega Metagross (145 / 110): 246.24
Mega Scizor (150 / 75): 177.33

Special Sweepiness (SS)

Mega Altaria (110 / 80): 143.69
Mega Lopunny (54 / 135): 96.53
Mega Metagross (105/ 110): 173.02
Mega Scizor (65 / 75): 90.74

Tankiness (PT / ST)

Mega Altaria (75 / 110 / 105): 152.67, 148.66
Mega Lopunny (65 / 94 / 96): 120.41, 125.42
Mega Metagross (80 / 150 / 110): 214.97, 161.64
Mega Scizor (70 / 140 / 100): 186.11, 136.16

You’ll quickly notice some pretty monstrous numbers here, especially if you compare these numbers to those of previous CAP Pokemon. Check out the Physical Sweepiness rating of Mega Metagross for instance. It’s over 246, which is well into the “Amazing” ranking on the calculator, and that’s not even factoring in Tough Claws! My main point here is that this is to be somewhat expected when discussing the stat ratings of CAP 21's Mega Evolution, and we're likely going to see some large Stat Ratings in at the very least one of these categories when deciding the Mega Stat Limits, so don't be afraid to make a big suggestion (with the proper justification, of course)!

To kick off the discussion, I’d like to focus our attention towards the Mega Evolution before discussing the details of the base form. After we’ve reached a consensus regarding the Sweepiness limits, Tankiness limits, and Physical / Special bias of CAP 21’s Mega Evolution, we’ll focus on how CAP 21’s stats should change as it Mega Evolves and the limits of its base form.

With all of this in mind, I have some questions to start us off.

1) Which groups of Pokemon, or individual Pokemon, from our threat list should we be most concerned with at the moment? How shall we address these threats in terms of the stat bias for CAP 21’s Mega Evolution?

2) How do specific traits of Magic Guard (immunity to recoil damage, passive damage, entry hazards, etc) play into CAP 21’s offensive and defensive potential, and how should this affect the stat limits of CAP 21?

3) Which of CAP 21’s Base Stat Ratings (PS, SS, PT, ST) should be emphasized the most upon Mega Evolution?

I will say that I’m alright with stat limits for the Mega Evolution being suggested as soon as we get discussion going, just be sure that all suggestions are made in the context of the questions posed above. Also, when using damage calculations as a part of your argument, it's fine to assume strong STAB moves such as Gunk Shot, Head Smash, etc. in your calculations. If you feel that a certain coverage move is necessary to make an argument, please provide justification for it. Don't polljump, however. The primary basis of your arguments should be based on what CAP 21 already has, not what you want it to have.

With all that said, let's get started!

 

[Project_Mars]

First off: typing from phone so I cant really give out more exact numbers on what I am posting.
1) Which groups of Pokemon, or individual Pokemon, from our threat list should we be most concerned with at the moment? How shall we address these threats in terms of the stat bias for CAP 21’s Mega Evolution?

Given that it was brought up repeatedly in the threats discussion: Manaphy sounds like a good starting point. Thankfully, it doesnt seem like too hard of a discussion since there is no reasonable way to guarentee a OHKO, unless 150 base attack is reasonable. (And even then, only when Stealth Rocks are down.) At 100 base attack Head Smash is a guarenteed 2HKO and at 112 base attack Gunk Shot can guarentee a 2HKO as well. Given that Wood Hammer/Power Whip deals about 5% more damage than Head Smash, coverage may not be needed, although it seems worth mentioning that with Stealth Rocks up Wood Hammer/Power Whip has a 50% chance to OHKO with 133 Base Attack. (EDIT: forgot to mention all calcs are 252 adamant)

Given that I had been doing these calcs from my phone at work, working out defensive stats is a bit trickier so i do not have more exact numbers. All I really have on the matter is that against 100 HP/ 100 Sp. Def in sand, Manaphy's Scald has a very low chance to 2HKO. So my opinion is we should focus more on making CAP tankier after Mega Evolving, if our premier goal is to take down the Prince of the Sea.

 

[Clair]

Had some PT / ST numbers but lost them -.- Anyway I wanted to point out that many of the things that the CAP is intended to beat regularly inflict burns (Talon, Heatran, Zard-X), and the majority of bulky waters are physically defensive, so special offense would seem like the logical option for the CAP.

 

[Project_Mars]

Had some PT / ST numbers but lost them -.- Anyway I wanted to point out that many of the things that the CAP is intended to beat regularly inflict burns (Talon, Heatran, Zard-X), and the majority of bulky waters are physically defensive, so special offense would seem like the logical option for the CAP.

The problem with that is the special attacks have a lot lower power than the physical attacks. 252+ Power Gem cant reasonably pick up OHKOs on ZardX, which is a bit of a problem.

Late Edit: Another strike is the fact that most fairies tend to be specially bulky, leading to some of the stuff CAP should be able to dispatch with no problem sticking around a turn longer than they should. If we had gone with Adaptability for the Mega ability then special vs physical would be worth a debate, but since we didn't, physical moves will let us do what we want to do.

 

[Clair]

Is it? I know creating moves isn't something the forum wants to do, but I doubt it's intended to constrain the other processes. Fully invested base 100 SAtk Power Gem does like 87% min to 80 HP Zard-X anyway...and Sludge Wave is a fantastic STAB, notwithstanding its fairly mediocre coverage.

 

[Dogfish44]

Yep, it's a major issue. For instance, if we have 120 ATK / 120 SPA uninvested, vs an unboosted Manaphy (Who's DEF/SPD are also equal);

0 Atk burned CAP21 Head Smash vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 94-111 (25.7 - 30.4%)
0 SpA burned Power Gem vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 102-120 (27.9 - 32.8%)

There's practically no difference there. It's a wee bit more pronounced when you compare coverage (Wood Hammer's 27.6-32.6 is weaker than Energy Ball's 41.6-49.3), but we can't expect to be burned in every scenario ^^'

 

[NumberCruncher]

2) How do specific traits of Magic Guard (immunity to recoil damage, passive damage, entry hazards, etc) play into CAP 21’s offensive and defensive potential, and how should this affect the stat limits of CAP 21?
So arguably the most important thing to note about Magic Guard is that it's pretty insane both offensively and defensively, to the point where no Pokemon in game with this ability has BST higher than Alakazam's 500, and many of them are still viable regardless. Our awkward typing and inability to hold Life Orb does give us some leeway in having slightly pushed stats and stat ratings given our ability, but we probably shouldn't try to push it too hard. This is a problem, because several Regenerator mons with actual quality typing and very nice movepools tend to not see play because of poor stats. So we have a balancing act where the base form can't have too awful a stat distribution, or else it becomes awful, and the Mega with +100 stats can't have too good a stat distribution, or else it becomes broken.

So how do we fix this problems with the stat limits? Simply put, the Base Form should have stats that are more heavily optimized than the Mega Form. Pokemon don't tend to rely on all 6 of their stats equally, so we can actually alter how much the Mega form feels the advantage of the +100 stats by sprinkling a few of those stats into less important stats (Like how Scizor had some of its +100 stats dumped into its low Speed and Special Attack, but not enough to make them a selling point). What this means in terms of stat ratings is that SS on the mega form should be higher than a stat we don't expect to use would probably normally be. Keep in mind that we're probably still going to have a relatively high BSR anyway thanks to our +100 stats. Losing some of the benefits of it through slightly unusual distribution isn't that bad. It also lets us pull the Tyranitar trick of occasionally holding a Special Coverage move.
3) Which of CAP 21’s Base Stat Ratings (PS, SS, PT, ST) should be emphasized the most upon Mega Evolution?
So the first standout thing of note when it comes to the Pokemon we want to threaten is that Talonflame, Weavile, and Azumarill are the only ones attacking us from the physical end of our defensive spectrum. Further, Weavile and Azumarill are fragile enough that we don't need Head Smash to knock them out, and they don't carry status moves, so we can probably aim to take them out with the Base form. Further, Talonflame without will-O-Wisp is probably something base form should deal with as well. That means we're Mega-Evolving to knock out Special Attackers, so ST is probably the stat that should go up the most. SS should also go up for the reasons stated in question two.

Here's a very basic example of stat limits I have in mind.

PS: 140(Gliscor/Tyrantrum)-165(Mamoswine)
140 is probably the minimum we can go for here. It has some nice perks. It's the least you need to simultaneously Head Smash out defensive Kyurem-Bs (Or at least as defensive as they tend to get) while getting enough Speed to jump Serperior (Which I argue we should be allowed to kill if Gunk Shot doesn't fail us). It's also Tyrantrum's PS, and that's the other Head Smasher that takes no damage. Tyrantrum can't operate on that low a PS, so we shouldn't expect our CAP to. 165 is the point we start scaring the Pokemon we were built to be threatened by. No-damage Head Smash is pretty unreal with the damage it does to even Pokemon that resist it. At that point, we've made a Pokemon nothing really wants to switch into outside of Excadrill.

SS: 130(Dragonite)-160(Gardevoir before Mega Evolution)
So this notation is a bit weird. In essence, PS is the main way we're going to get damage across with Magic Guard and this typing. Since we don't want all our stats to be amazingly optimized, I decided to experiment on whether we could make Sludge Wave something you might tech to get past a Physical Wall. Thus, we have 130 as a min, where Sludge Wave is better against Celebi than Gunk Shot if we have 140 as PS. I don't think we should actually try to break over PS with our SS, however. 160 is slightly high for a Maximum, and is really only reasonable if we go whole hog on the PS, but it's something we could consider. Quite a bit of our PS is probably going to Speed anyway given the mons we want to beat, so these aren't actually that high when you get down to it.

ST: 160(Latios) - 175(Mega-Venusaur)
We're going to max out at 175, because that's when we start getting sets that Mega-Alakazam can't necessarily OHKO. There are a couple of reasons to go with 160 as a min. We won't get OHKO'd from a Scald from Politoed, Scarf Keldeo, or Manaphy without Tail Glow Boost. It gives Slowbro incentive to carry Psyshock to deal with it instead of just spamming Scald. It sets Tornadus-I at exactly a 3HKO with Focus Blast. We want to lean on our Special Defense anyway.
PT: 130(Latias)-160(Conkeldurr)
So 130 is the absolute minimum the base form would need to beat Choice Band Talonflame in a fight, and this probably isn't the sort of mon we should expect to lose some of its stats upon mega evolving like Beedrill does. At the point we have upwards of 160 PT, Bisharp can no longer OHKO us with Iron Head.

 

[Deck Knight]

Since we're focusing on the Mega here:

The usual observations apply, which is that Speed is the primary driver of Sweepiness and HP of Tankiness.

PS: 170-190
This range allows us to outspeed 160 Spe Manaphy after Mega-Evolving and 2HKO it with Gunk Shot if SR is on the field (Or GK Poisons). Head Smash 2HKO's at like Base 100 Atk, and this is a Mega competing for a Mega Slot, so, bear in mind credible offense is necessary. The upper range allows us to outrun Charizards at the same Base Attack level.

SS: 110-145
I honestly believe SS is fairly irrelevant given Pokemon we want to threaten are very specifically weak to our STABS, and so really the only thing necessary is it be high enough for a credible speed factor. I also would like to dissuade from running things like HP Fighting or HP Ice for our numerous 4x weak counters.

PT: 135-160:
I'm in agreement with NumberCruncher here, that these are the defensive limits that let us beat things we want to threaten without compromising our counters. Base Regen + Magic Guard on the Mega as well as the general resilience to hazards/weather mean that CAP is going to be at or near 88-100% most of the time.

ST: 170-225
I believe we can be very indulgent in this stat because our Psychic-type counters can easily circumvent this with Psyshock, which is standard on most of them. With Sand Support (and again this actually pairs pretty well with TTar because it gobbles up fairies) it can actually eat a Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump or +3 Manaphy Scald. Remember, this is the team's Mega Slot and has to be competitive, and since the idea is to emphasize our type's strengths, YUUUGE Sp.D augmented by Sandstorm for the purpose of blunting our checks is a good way to go. I also think this and SS should be the primary beneficiaries of the Mega Evolution stat boost. The Base Form should be threatening strong hits with Head Smash and Gunk Shot, (HS backed somewhat by Regen) switching in and out often, while the Mega is more interactive with the team and can utilize MG's fringe benefits.

Overall BSR: 365-395
Our type leaves a lot to be desired in offensive pressure and has a few glaring defensive weaknesses, but overall it can excel with the right support. For reference, Base 100 mons and Mega Houndoom hover around 360, Mega Gyarados has a BSR of 382.33, Mega ZardX has 387.46, Mega ZardY has 390.35. Those three Pokemon fit the mold of what we want in a Mega, which is a relevant speed tier, competent offense, but not so fast or so powerful as to be overwhelming.

 

[Alfalfa]

PS: 200-230
While such a high PS seems completely out of the question, look at it from this perspective. With such a high PS, we have enough power to deal heavy damage to our premier Water-type targets (Keldeo, Manaphy, Rotom-W) while having enough speed to outrun key targets (EDIT: nothing higher than Kyurem-B, I originally was thinking of outspeeding Keldeo but realized that was already going to be a bit much), depending on what we decide on. I understand people are trying to balance out the CAP, but in all reality, we are supposed to be utilizing the strengths of our CAP, and having two high-powered STABs is almost a certainly a reason to put enough investment offensively to utilize such. We want to make Water-types switching into it a risky decision, and not give it a bare minimum to inflict sufficient damage. We wanted Magic Guard to be a buffed Rock Head, and we should utilize it as such.

SS: 85-105
Worry about Special Attack is irrelevant because we are forming our Mega CAP based on the premise of a buffed STAB Head Smash. Special Attack should be our lowest stat since it is the most unimportant of all of our stats.

PT: 150 - 175
150 is the bare minimum, where LO Weavile's Knock Off will never 2HKO without a critical hit or hazards. However, I feel 160 is most necessary so max attack Mega Scizor can never OHKO with Bullet Punch after Stealth Rock.

ST: 165-185
This puts the Mega CAP in a range where it can EV itself to avoid 2HKOs from any of Zard Y's attacks (except for Earthquake) while avoiding a 2HKO by LO Torn-T's Focus Blast without requiring much / any defensive investment. Since giving our CAP enough speed to outrun it might be a bad idea with such a generally high PS, we should be able to hold some form of leverage over Special Attackers that we check.

 

[NumberCruncher]

SS: 85-105
Worry about Special Attack is irrelevant because we are forming our Mega CAP based on the premise of a buffed STAB Head Smash. Special Attack should be our lowest stat since it is the most unimportant of all of our stats.

That seems a little unreasonable. Mega-Pinsir, for example, has more SS than your Maximum, and it only has 55 as a Special Stat. Add in that you specifically called out Keldeo as something that might be nice to outspeed and that's actually faster than Mega-Pinsir, and this range is absolutely impossible.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

I just want to remind everyone that this is the Stat Limits stage, not the Stat Range stage. At the close of this thread, sparktain aka nerd will list Stat Limits (i.e. maximums and not minimums).

If you're making an argument about what you think the minimum PS/SS/PT/ST should be, please try to keep it to absolutely vital reasons relating to beating things we already know we want to beat. The majority of the fine tuning regarding this stage should inherently focus on the stat maximums however, as a good maximum value will allow us to beat or threaten what we what to threaten (either something pre-decided or something new if you can explain why it is significant, etc) but still lose to what we want to lose to.

Also, note that BSR is something that will need a limit as well, not just the individual categories. A lot of you have used spark's questions to springboard into your ideas, which is fine, and spark's questions themselves don't particularly relate to BSR quite yet, but don't forget this will still be a thing later on.

 

[LightningLord2]

I'm not that versed in Base Stat Ratings, but I'll try to contribute by posting a few benchmarks for physical attack (since everyone pretty much decided on "Physical Sweeper running Head Smash + Gunk Shot") in targets we can threaten at certain levels (assuming a 252+ investment):

82 - 2HKO 0/4 Keldeo with Gunk Shot after Leftovers
94 - 2HKO 248/0 Heatran with Head Smash after Leftovers
107 - OHKO 252/172 Clefable with Gunk Shot
121 - 2HKO 248/16+ Mega Scizor with Head Smash
157 - 2HKO 252/252+ Skarmory with Head Smash
170 - 2HKO 252/252+ Suicune with Head Smash after Leftovers
195 - OHKO 96/0 Manaphy with Head Smash
210 - 2HKO 252/240+ Landorus-T with Head Smash after Intimidate

Hippowdon, Excadrill, Ferrothorn and defensive Garchomp all avoid 2HKOs from us even at a base 255 Attack Stat.

 

[sparktrain]

Based on the discussion in this thread and PS/IRC so far, I think it's reasonable to say that we've reached a general consensus regarding our Mega's limits for individual stat ratings, and I have a pretty good idea of what'd we'd like to see in our limits so far.

We'd like for PS to be emphasized over SS, and to a considerable degree.

The reasoning here is fairly straight-forward. We're looking to take advantage of CAP 21's Mega Ability, and more importantly, its typing. Looking toward the general physical bias of recoil moves, as well as its stronger physical STAB options (Gunk Shot, Head Smash), as well as the generally lower physical defense of several of CAP 21's intended targets, emphasizing PS seems to fit CAP 21 well in this regard. We also seem to be in agreement that we'd like to see a considerably larger PS than SS; if we allow CAP 21 to have too much prowess in the SpA department, it starts threatening its should-be checks (Ground-types, Steel-types, etc) with various Hidden Powers. As such, SS should really only be kept high enough to allow for flexibility in potential Speed stats, without requiring a ridiculously low SpA.

We'd like for ST to be emphasized over PT.

Looking at our threat list again, several of the Pokemon that threaten CAP 21 (Landorus-T, Garchomp, Scizor, Excadrill, and more) are physically inclined, meaning that we'd like for CAP 21's PT to be enough to safely handle a few physical threats that it's intended to check (notably Talonflame) without compromising its negative matchups with the Pokemon that should threaten it back. ST, on the other hand, is a much safer area to bolster CAP 21's stats, as this allows for CAP 21 to more easily tank hits such as Moonblast, Pixilate Hyper Voice, Scald, and more from several of the Special Attackers CAP 21 is intended to check. Like Deck Knight, I personally feel that we can afford to buff this area to a considerable degree compared to PT, though I don't believe we have a strong consensus as to what degree this is acceptable. As such, I'm inclined to leave a bit of leeway here to allow for users to present their individual arguments when it comes time for stat spread submissions (without going overboard, of course).

At this point in time, I'd like to shift dicussion toward BSR and the Stat Ratings of CAP 21's base form, which somewhat ties in with my third question in my previous post. I've heard a few opinions on this so far, but I'd like to discuss the topic a bit further before I draw any further conclusions. So, my questions to you right now are:

Which of CAP 21’s Base Stat Ratings (PS, SS, PT, ST) should be emphasized the most upon Mega Evolution? More specifically, how should we expect these ratings to change? Should CAP 21 receive general all-around buffs to these limits to allow for more flexibility, or should specific areas undergo more drastic change (if so, explain why)?

To what degree can we expect CAP 21's BSR to change as it Mega Evolves? (Think stat spread optimization; NumberCruncher had a good point on this earlier) Are there any existing Mega Pokemon which could serve as good benchmarks?

Suggestions for the base form's stat limits are welcome at this time. Try to answer in the context of the questions above! If you have any further comments on any of the points brought up earlier, feel free to address those as well.

 

[Project_Mars]

Which of CAP 21’s Base Stat Ratings (PS, SS, PT, ST) should be emphasized the most upon Mega Evolution? More specifically, how should we expect these ratings to change? Should CAP 21 receive general all-around buffs to these limits to allow for more flexibility, or should specific areas undergo more drastic change (if so, explain why)?

In my opinion the safest bet would be to emphasize ST on the mega evolution. Given that a good portion of the list of pokemon we want to threaten, especially the water-types of which only Azumarill and Gyarados are physical, are special attackers, increasing Special bulk seems to be the way to go. If we were to try to increase PS then we would run a risk of threatening things we dont want it to threaten, since Head Smash hits like a truck already, and Gunk Shot can probably deal with most of the things we want it to take out with a decent attack stat in the first place.

Edit: a well rounded approach could work too, depending on the base form's stats. Imo, unless CAP's base attack is 80 or below, i dont see much of a need to put more than 10 or 20 more stats in Base Attack upon mega evolving, since I feel having it go to 140 or above being a little risky.

 

[Alfalfa]

That seems a little unreasonable. Mega-Pinsir, for example, has more SS than your Maximum, and it only has 55 as a Special Stat. Add in that you specifically called out Keldeo as something that might be nice to outspeed and that's actually faster than Mega-Pinsir, and this range is absolutely impossible.

I originally wanted our CAP to outspeed Keldeo, but I changed my mind after realizing such speed would be overkill on a Pokemon that I already enabled to possess such a high amount of attack power. The final PS and SS range I chose were meant to be ranges where the Mega CAP's speed tier would be somewhere between Lucario and Kyurem-B, meaning our Mega CAP could potentially have a higher Special Attack stat than Mega Pinsir. However, as I stated before, we gave our CAP Magic Guard with the main intent for it to be a buffed Rock Head.

 

[acidphoenix]

PS: 265. Everything that is supposed to beat us beats us at this number anyway, and 260 is a useful benchmark to allow statspread makers to select whether to hit it or not due to it being the requirement to OHKO Mandibuzz at 109 speed. (For reference, this is approximately the same physical attack as Alfalfa's, the high increase is entirely from speed.) While this is not a necessary benchmark to hit, it is useful, and it isn't high enough to allow it to hit OHKOs, 2HKOs, or 3HKOs that it necessarily shouldn't be able to hit.

SS: 155. This is slightly more(by an amount that is insignificant to hitting actual KOs, but allows flexibility with mega v. nonmega stats) the SS number with 109 speed- the highest number that we can reach and still be threatened effectively by Latios, Starmie, and Latias- and 90 Special Attack, which we have no business having more than. 90 SpA is unable to OHKO Garchomp with HP Ice or Bisharp with HP Fighting without significant investment.

PT: 160. This is the highest we can reach and still be OHKO'd by Bisharp's Iron Head, bulky M-Scizor to 2HKO us with Bullet Punch, or OHKO after an SD, M-Meta to OHKO with Steel STAB, Latias to OHKO with Psyshock after SR damage, Latios to OHKO with Psyshock at 100%, and all of our Ground-type checks to OHKO with Earthquake.

ST: 215. This is the highest we can reach and still be OHKO'd by M-Ala's Psychic after Stealth Rock damage assuming a 0/4 spread. Additionally, this allows Mega Slowbro to 2HKO us with Scald, Specs Keldeo to OHKO but Scarf Keldeo fail to.

BRT: 435. While all of these would give a BRT of 447, the mon would be rather strong with all of these together, but doesn't need a huge reduction to be balanced.


(note that the PT / ST calcs were made after looking at all Pokemon that are supposed to threaten this CAP, these numbers just seemed like the most significant benchmark.)

Remember that these are maximums, not minimums or suggestions: this is the highest for each of these I think CAP21 can possibly have and be balanced, not the amount I necessarily think it should have.

All calcs were made using the default sets in the damage calculator, using the bulkiest one for sweepiness and the most offensive one, unless otherwise noted(bulky mega scizor is bulky SD OU), for tankiness

 

[sparktrain]

Alright, based on more recent discussion, I've come to the following conclusions regarding the base limits and how they could change over the course of Mega Evolution.

There should be significant differences in the PS and ST limits between the base and Mega form.

PS should have a lower limit on the base form for obvious reasons; if the base outperforms the Mega as an attacker, that removes one of the big incentives for CAP 21 to Mega Evolve (keep in mind that the base form can hold an item and has Regenerator). ST has also been mostly agreed upon to be one of the main stat areas that should see a significant increase upon Mega Evolution. As such, the base form should have a lower ST limit to emphasize this.

As far as SS and PT go, I don't really see a compelling reason to make their limits much lower for the base form, if at all. As such, I'm inclined to keep these limits the same. Keep in mind that these limits are absolute maximums, meaning that there's still flexibility for the stats to change if we desire. BSR-wise, I'm considering around a 410 BSR limit for the Mega and 325 BSR limit for the base. This is somewhat higher than what's been suggested so far in this thread, but based on several individual discussions I've had recently (and a ton of fiddling around with the BSR calc), I really don't want to make our restrictions on stats too heavy at this point.

At this point in time, if you have any other suggestions or points to bring up regarding anything we've discussed so far, please do so. I'll most likely be wrapping this thread up later today, at which point I'll post our limits.

 

[jas61292]

I don't really have a ton to add here. I agree with most of what sparktrain has been talking about, and see no real problems with the direction this thread has gone. Special Tankiness is probably the most important thing for us to focus on, but as sparktrain said, Physical Sweepiness is super important to look at with respect to a mega evolution boost, as the offensive incentive is a huge reason why people mega evolve in the first place.

The only other thing I really want to add here is that I think we should be pretty loose with our base form's limits. We certainly need limits, but I'd much rather see all the limits be pretty close to the mega limits to allow for more variability in how people try and take advantage of the mega evolution in their stat submissions, than see us make the differences large and force similar spreads (especially defensively) on anyone who wants to push our bulk.

 

[Alfalfa]

PS: 265. Everything that is supposed to beat us beats us at this number anyway, and 260 is a useful benchmark to allow statspread makers to select whether to hit it or not due to it being the requirement to OHKO Mandibuzz at 109 speed. (For reference, this is approximately the same physical attack as Alfalfa's, the high increase is entirely from speed.) While this is not a necessary benchmark to hit, it is useful, and it isn't high enough to allow it to hit OHKOs, 2HKOs, or 3HKOs that it necessarily shouldn't be able to hit.

SS: 155. This is slightly more(by an amount that is insignificant to hitting actual KOs, but allows flexibility with mega v. nonmega stats) the SS number with 109 speed- the highest number that we can reach and still be threatened effectively by Latios, Starmie, and Latias- and 90 Special Attack, which we have no business having more than. 90 SpA is unable to OHKO Garchomp with HP Ice or Bisharp with HP Fighting without significant investment.

PT: 160. This is the highest we can reach and still be OHKO'd by Bisharp's Iron Head, bulky M-Scizor to 2HKO us with Bullet Punch, or OHKO after an SD, M-Meta to OHKO with Steel STAB, Latias to OHKO with Psyshock after SR damage, Latios to OHKO with Psyshock at 100%, and all of our Ground-type checks to OHKO with Earthquake.

ST: 215. This is the highest we can reach and still be OHKO'd by M-Ala's Psychic after Stealth Rock damage assuming a 0/4 spread. Additionally, this allows Mega Slowbro to 2HKO us with Scald, Specs Keldeo to OHKO but Scarf Keldeo fail to.

BRT: 435. While all of these would give a BRT of 447, the mon would be rather strong with all of these together, but doesn't need a huge reduction to be balanced.


(note that the PT / ST calcs were made after looking at all Pokemon that are supposed to threaten this CAP, these numbers just seemed like the most significant benchmark.)

Remember that these are maximums, not minimums or suggestions: this is the highest for each of these I think CAP21 can possibly have and be balanced, not the amount I necessarily think it should have.

All calcs were made using the default sets in the damage calculator, using the bulkiest one for sweepiness and the most offensive one, unless otherwise noted(bulky mega scizor is bulky SD OU), for tankiness

I originally wanted to have a PT high enough for base 109 speed, but I realized that STAB Head Smash was already going to be considerably spammable, 2HKOing everything in the tier that does not resist it, even Skarmory and Slowbro after Stealth Rock. When I came to that conclusion, I realized that giving it a PS combining such attack power with the ability to outspeed Keldeo would have the potential to make this Mega CAP overpowering. No Pokemon at a base 105-110 speed tier, with the exception of Mega Pinsir, possesses enough raw power and a highly spammable STAB to even equate to what we want to make this Mega CAP. We only wanted our CAP to threaten Water-types, not invalidate them as checks. I will only concede and raise my PS if you can persuade me that the value of outrunning Zard X is high enough to warrant risking making our CAP potentially overpowering, but most Zard X does not run Earthquake anyways, so such is not much of an issue.

For reference, I chose a rather modest PT and ST because I wanted our Mega CAP to focus more on offense and the base form CAP to focus more on defense, similar to what Diancie does but not as drastic of a change. We do not need to be able to tank every available hit, since we would already have a usable defensive typing and decent enough bulk to check Torn-T, Weavile, Clefable, and Talonflame.

 

[Korski]

I think those BSR limits are great; there is a lot of room to beef up the stats (410 is a pretty damn high bar to set) while still allowing for a variety of speed tiers and HP numbers. With strong enough reasoning, I can see viable, non-broken spreads approaching those limits. As for the other rankings, it seems like the priorities for stat beefiness go PS --> ST --> PT --> SS in descending order, so I'll use the same order to make my proposals.

PS is the most dynamic ranking we have to consider here. It is no longer polljumping to assume access to both Head Smash and Gunk Shot, so right out of the bat, our CAP is going to have some of the statistically strongest attacks in the tier -- here is our advantage. The relationship between Speed and Attack is going to be doing most of the work when it comes to making this CAP viable as an OU Mega (still a tall task despite our decisions thus far), so I don't think it would be a bad idea to go a little nutty here to help our STABs truly stand out. It takes 154 PS to outrun and 2HKO a standard Manaphy; 176 PS to outrun and 2HKO Keldeo with Head Smash --> Gunk Shot or Gunk Shot x2; 212 PS to both outrun Keldeo and 2HKO defensive Rotom-W with Head Smash; and 222 PS to both outrun Serperior and still 2HKO defensive Rotom-W. Seeing as 225 PS is just a nudge higher than that last benchmark and is also the cutoff between Fantastic and Amazing on the stat calculator, I think that would be a fine upper limit.

I am also of the mind that we can go a little nuts with ST, as we really don't have a physically defensive backbone to support us and we need need need easier switch-in opportunities. Tyranitar is a good example of a Rock-type that gets good switch-in opportunities, despite its physical vulnerabilities, via special bulk. Its Special Tankiness in Sand is a whopping 266.8, while outside of Sand it is a still-great 169.8. Sometimes the CAP will be in Sand, but, unlike Tyranitar, most of the time it won't be, so I think we should set high enough limits on special bulk to give submitters room to emulate Tyranitar as much as is reasonably possible without having to rely on Sand boosts to comfortably switch in to neutral special attacks. The average ST of Tyranitar in and out of sand is 218.3, which is also around the point where the CAP would be able to survive defensive Heatran's Earth Power and avoid being 2HKO'd by Mega Manectric's Thunderbolt and other attacks of similar strength. Since we're already almost there, I believe the same 225 ST cutoff between Fantastic and Amazing would be a nice clean upper limit.

I think we need to be extremely careful not to simultaneously give the CAP great PS, ST, and PT. The only physical hits we absolutely need to survive will come from Talonflame, as our matchups with Altaria and Charizard X have everything to do with whether they are at +1 or +0 Speed and not so much on actually tanking a resisted physical hit from them. We also want to make sure Lati@s and Slowbro can sink us with Psyshock, and that Scizor, Mega Metagross, and Azumarill can reliably blast us with their SE priority so as to maintain the integrity of the threat list. The maximum PT for ensuring a OHKO from LO Latios's Psyshock with no defensive EV investment is around 166, so I think 170 PT should be set as the uppermost limit, with added scrutiny toward submissions that come remotely close to both PT and ST limits simultaneously.

The only function of the SS limit will be as a ceiling for the Speed stat. I am personally not worried about the CAP being tempted to run Hidden Power so long as its Atk is at least 20 points higher than its SpA (at which point neutral Head Smash becomes stronger than 4x SE HP and even a resisted Head Smash begins to outdamage a 2x SE HP against most opponents). To accommodate a large variety of Speed stats, I can see an upper limit of 150 SS being acceptable, though not encouraged.

I agree with jas regarding limits for the base form: we don't really need them as the base form stats are more of a derivative of the mega stats and can be judged on their merits during the submission stage.

 

[sparktrain]

Alright, I've decided to set the limits as the following:

Base
PT: 170
PS: 180
ST: 195
SS: 145
BSR: 325

Mega
PT: 170
PS: 225
ST: 240
SS: 145
BSR: 410

The Base and Mega BSR limits are unchanged from my post earlier, as they seemed to be pretty solid upper benchmarks from the feedback I've gathered, and they put CAP 21 in a similar ballpark as several of OU's viable Mega Evolutions. The biggest stat bias that jumps out is the ST rating. I was able to talk with HeaLnDeaL a considerable amount earlier, and we eventually agreed that this limit should be higher than where I was originally aiming to allow users more freedom to focus on more specially defensive stat spreads with lower Speed if they so choose. Jas himself has stated that this is probably the most important thing for us to be focusing on. Specifically, the given upper limit for ST allows uninvested Mega CAP 21 to always avoid the OHKO from Choice Specs Keldeo's Scald. All the other stat bias ratings are based off of direct feedback from this thread and IRC, and I feel comfortable listing them as such since they were justified quite well. You'll notice that the PT and SS limits for the Base and the Mega are the same. This doesn't imply that the stats are required to remain the same between the base and Mega form; it only implies they aren't the primary areas of growth as CAP 21 Mega Evolves. The only specific limits that change are PS and ST, which is to encourage significant growth in these areas, as was deemed important, therefore providing incentive for CAP 21's Mega Evolution. You'll also notice that there is a fair bit of leeway in pretty much every area, with the exception of total BSR. This was very much intentional, providing users with increased freedom to choose between varying combinations of Speed and offensive stats, as well as which stat biases they'd like to lean towards when designing their stat spreads. The total BSR limits are in place to balance this, ensuring that stat submissions don't push the limits in too many areas.

Now, I'll pass this over to jas61292 for any final adjustments. Thank you to all that participated!

 

[jas61292]

Just as a preface here, the usual rules for the TL at this stage are that they can adjust the limits for any of the sweepieness or tankiness limits up or down by at least 5 points, so long as the combined total change wouldn't be greater than 25 points. Additionally, they can change the BSR limit by up to 25 points. These rules were, of course, not designed with a mega evolution in mind. My assumption here would be that the correct way to handle things here would be to apply those rules to both forms separately, allowing more changes total to account for the greater number of limits being dealt with. But... whether or not that is the best way to do it is something we can decide elsewhere if we do this type of project again. I am merely putting this here as a reminder for the future. I don't plan to change anything beyond the scope of the original, non-mega rules.

There is just a little bit I want to change here. After having looked at these limits, I checked out a bunch of potential ways that people might want to go with stats, and for the most part, I think these limits worked well. The only real place that I noticed anything somewhat troubling was if someone wanted a faster base form. With certain reasonable higher speed stats prior to mega evolution, I believed that either the base would be forced to be very impotent, or that the mega would not be gaining enough of a boost in its offensive prowess to justify the mega evolution as much as we would like. With that said, typically, what I would consider to be more reasonable for a mevo change only would just barely miss the limits. So, I am going to use my power here to boost the mega form's Physical Sweepiness level by 5 points, up to 230. With the BSR limit remaining the same, this would allow submitters a bit more freedom with faster spreads, without allowing the overall power to really be pumped up any more.

Finally, I would just like to mention that, when running all sorts of different potential spreads, I often found that the BSR limits were not nearly as hard to work around as the 100 BST Mega Evolution limit. On the one hand, you obviously cannot bump things up too much, sometimes making it hard to get the power level difference you want between forms. On the other hand, you can't always simply keep PT and SS the same in both forms, because sometimes there is simply no way to put all 100 points into Atk, SpD and Spe without either breaking the PS or ST limits, or making the base too weak. This may be, in fact, the biggest limiting factor, and I will be very interested to see the kinds of spreads people will come up with. I will have a bit to say on BST limitations and new kinds of abuse beyond standard BSR abuse that arise thanks to the mega evolution, but that is best put in the stats submission thread itself. So that's all for now.