np: ORAS UU Stage 4 - Go with the Flow

[YABO]

I think it's pretty facetious to say that balance is struggling right now. I just think it's wild that this idea always surfaces despite the fact that Suicune and Reuniclus are notorious pokemon for balance and both are as good as ever. Not to mention the fact that in UU Open, teams like Christo The Gr8 's Aerolyn has seen tons of success. Balance has always been a style about minimizing "unwinnable" matchups and still has more than enough tools to do so. Sure, balanced teams can get overwhelmed, but the less defensive nature of balance as opposed to a more passive stall team allows the balance user to jump out ahead of his opponent at choice moments and regain momentum that way.

 

[teal6]

Aerolyn is the best team in the tier right now. Balance has some of the most threatening shit in the entire tier, Taunt/Toxic Mandi, CM Florges, teams that can reliably hazard stack throughout a long match. You're a madman if you think balance is hurt - I'm more scared of a well built balance team than I am of almost any Full Stall build.

 

[rs]

I've enjoyed this tier as of late, mostly because of all these new emerging threats that were always here but never used before (they're sort of like hidden gems), like the Mega Houndoom's, Nasty Plot Toxicroaks, and the new pokemon TR Hoopa (Its best set imo). These should definitely be considered when building teams due to their potential to put some severe dents in unprepared teams, especially Mega Doom and Hoopa, which can honestly destroy offensive teams if they get a Nasty Plot/TR Up. The only thing I don't like is that with Cobalion being everywhere (and also Pokemon like Hoopa and Doublade being on some teams here and there) is that the beloved Snorlax has fallen from grace. Lax was honestly one of the best Pokemon in the tier (I think it was being considered for A+ in VRs before the Cobalion frenzy) at some point due to the utility it put it in as a Special wall as well as a fearsome set-up sweeper with Curse. I used to find it extremely easy to fit on teams back then, but now not so much :[.

As for playstyles balance is definitely not bad in this current meta, contrary to what some people have been saying. Sure it's hard to pull off due to all the threats to account for when putting in the walls (the gatr's, mamo's, cune's, etc), but by no mean is it any worse than any other playstyle, just a little bit harder to pull off.

 

[CashKP]

Alright so since Im fairly new still I cant really accurately comment on how the meta has changed or anything like that. I can say thought that I am having a lot of fun playing UU currently because it is really balanced. I think everyone has already said all the positive things that I would say so no point talking about that hah the one thing I want to talk about it is balance playstyle in general.

I used to play a long time ago (GenV and earlier) and I always played balance. Thats almost all I built and all I played because it was just always so consistently good (and I had a ton of ladder success in almost every tier). So when I came back a few months ago I tried to build some balance in OU and to be honest I was having a rough time laddering. ORAS brought all this overpowered stuff with 5 million attack and 6 thousand speed and I thought balance (on ladder) was dead. Someone told me that balance was alive in UU so thats why Im here playing UU now hah

So I know why some of you dont think its good and I will say that its much harder to play on ladder (its still really really strong in tour settings, I dont think anyone would argue that) and even though its harder to play on ladder, its actually really strong. The problem so many people have is that they play Balance like its Stall. You CANNOT passively switch around and make the safest possible play and expect your balance team to work because it wont. You need to make sure that you can keep up some sort of pressure on your opponent. If you look at Christo and Teals teams you can see that they arnt passive teams. They were built to keep up some sort of momentum and be proactive. Things are too strong in ORAS to make a passive balance team. So Balance isnt bad at all, I actually thinks its extremely strong as long as you play it a little more aggressively.

 

[DiscoDucky]

So building upon the general consensus that balance is a very strong playstyle at the moment, would SubSeed Trevenant (and similar low-momentum, non-defensive Pokemon) considered relatively better in this metagame?

 

[d2m]

I dunno, I'm having a blast with SubSeed Shaymin. Today has been my first day playing on Shoddy Pokemon Showdown in ~5 years and UU is still fun. Then again, I'm running Shaymin/Crobat which was the bane of my existence when I first started playing (and they both got BL pretty soon after).

 

[Bluerain]

If Sylveon drops, will it mostly outclass Florges? I'm asking because I think I remember reading that Sylveon's usage was dropping.

 

[Hogg]

If Sylveon drops, will it mostly outclass Florges? I'm asking because I think I remember reading that Sylveon's usage was dropping.

Mostly. Florges has better Special bulk, and access to Synthesis, so it can do a CM set slightly better. But Sylveon's better physical bulk, fatter Wishes and significantly better offensive potential means the average team is going to prefer it. Also, in addition to playing the cleric, Sylveon's got an incredibly dangerous Specs set that can do nasty things to people who try to use Doublade as their sole Fairy resist.

 

[Adaam]

If Sylveon drops, will it mostly outclass Florges? I'm asking because I think I remember reading that Sylveon's usage was dropping.

Sylveon outclasses Florges in almost every way, yes. The only thing Florges has is larger SpD which Sylveon makes up for with higher HP. It's basically a Florges on roids with a better ability, wish passing potential, and even Psyshock to beat other CMers

Edit: I was wrong about being a better CMer. It has no room to run Psyshock since it has no one turn recovery, my bad

 

[LilOu]

Sylveon outclasses Florges in almost every way, yes. The only thing Florges has is larger SpD which Sylveon makes up for with higher HP. It's basically a Florges on roids with a better ability, wish passing potential, and even Psyshock to beat other CMers

Only thing Florges has is actually 1 turn recovery, so that it can actually run Aromatherapy + Synthesis on the CM set, while Sylveon has to go WishProtect.

 

[d2m]

It will definitely be interesting to see how well she performs given that Florges is so damn good right now. I know I'll be excited to try it out.

 

[Bluerain]

That's too bad, I kinda like Florges. One thing I did notice was that Florges' speed was considerably better than Sylveon's, with 75 vs 60. Does that allow it to outspeed anything significant?

edit: Just noticed it gets Grass coverage too which is nice, though I'm not sure if it can fit it onto any of its sets.

 

[silenced]

Specs Pixilate Hypervoice is just too good to pass up. That in itself sums up why florges would lose just about all usage if we get sylveon. Sylveon would be possibly the best choiced-lock user in all of UU simply because there are no quad resists and no immunities to block its outrageously powerful STAB.

I get the defensive role and CM sets are nice, but CM is done better by reuniclus, and has serious competition with whatever else uses CM (Suicune and...um...seriously I think they are so dominant its not worth discussing other CM users). Less sure for defensive roles, as the instant recovery is a big selling point.

Anything else close to dropping while I think of it. I've been out of the game for a bit and I only have a vague memory of what is to potentially drop...

 

[Pinkin Lark]

Specs Pixilate Hypervoice is just too good to pass up. That in itself sums up why florges would lose just about all usage if we get sylveon. Sylveon would be possibly the best choiced-lock user in all of UU simply because there are no quad resists and no immunities to block its outrageously powerful STAB.

I get the defensive role and CM sets are nice, but CM is done better by reuniclus, and has serious competition with whatever else uses CM (Suicune and...um...seriously I think they are so dominant its not worth discussing other CM users). Less sure for defensive roles, as the instant recovery is a big selling point.

Anything else close to dropping while I think of it. I've been out of the game for a bit and I only have a vague memory of what is to potentially drop...

Just going off September's stats, the only real risks to drop are Sylveon and Conkeldurr. Celebi has potential, but would need to get used a little bit less(was ~3.6%, with cutoff at 3.41%).

Another interesting consideration is that OU might take Amoonguss. And I wouldn't cry over losing the only real Spore user we have.

 

[Schpoonman]

If Sylveon drops I suspect it will instantly hit top 5 usage. The only place it doesn't fit well on is Hyper Offense, but even there (or on Sticky Web teams, as unreliable as they are) the Specs set like silenced said will be a complete monster. Conkeldurr will almost make Machamp completely obsolete, but he just might barely hold on thanks to his slightly higher speed and Dynamic Punch. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw Machamp drop to RU, though. Conkeldurr is why he dropped out of OU in the first place, I can't see why that would change in UU.

 

[Nightingales]

I'm expecting a massive rise in physical iron tail or BP Lucario, which will probably mean Chandy rising too.

That's just me, though. Probably will see Iron Tail Mence go up a lot too.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

In all honesty, Cleric Sylveon will, for all intents and purposes, completely invalidate the Cleric Florges set, and possibly Florges itself entirely. This was discussed to death in the OU forums eons ago in early XY, but Sylveon is practically superior to Florges in every way. Even though Florges is slightly bulkier than Sylveon specially, the difference in bulk between them is minimal due to Sylveon's higher HP, and Florges fails to wall anything that Sylveon already cannot. Sylveon also has bigger Wishes, a much stronger STAB (Pixilate Hyper Voice), and better physical bulk. Florges is faster than Sylveon, but to respond to a previous post regarding their base Speeds, this actually is completely irrelevant due to the manner in which both of them play. Florges's higher Speed rarely, if ever matters considering it doesn't make up for the advantages Sylveon has. Here are some calcs to show the bulk differences and the power differences between the two:

First, physical:

252 Atk Life Orb Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 181-214 (50.2 - 59.4%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Krookodile Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 187-220 (47.4 - 55.8%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see, Sylveon has slightly more physical bulk than Florges, to the point where it has a greater chance of avoiding a 2HKO from something like Krookodile than Florges does. The difference in bulk here is minimal, and Sylveon has the bigger Wishes so it wins here defensively.

Now for special:

252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 117-138 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- 2.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 134-160 (34 - 40.6%) -- 44.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Okay, Florges has slightly more special bulk than Sylveon, but as you can see the difference in bulk is incredibly minimal, to the point where Florges takes around the same amount of damage from most special attackers as Sylveon. And of course, Sylveon has the bigger Wishes.

Now for being able to hit stuff:

0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 109-129 (33.7 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 132-156 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

There is a pretty notable power difference here. Sylveon's minimum damage output is almost equal to that of Florges's maximum damage output, meaning Sylveon can even possibly do a bigger dent with SR taken into account. Sylveon also has the luxury of being able to bypass Substitutes, whereas they can be used against Florges to use the thing as setup fodder.

So basically, Sylveon would for the most part invalidate usage of Florges. If Sylveon does end up dropping, I'm almost certain Florges would fall to RU and lose whatever viability it has. That being said, Sylveon itself would be incredibly good, and considering Florges is a Top 5 in usage Pokemon, I'm sure Sylveon would definitely replace it there. Its cleric set would be pretty great and the Specs set would be devastating considering its raw power and incredible typing.

Conkeldurr is also in it for a drop, and I think it would make a pretty fun addition to UU. It would be a great bulky Fighting-type, and it would definitely drop Machamp usage as it's a bulky Fighting type with the advantage of two things: Drain Punch and Mach Punch. Admittedly, Machamp's No Guard DynamicPunch is a lethal tool, but it's nothing when you compare to Conkeldurr's ability to hit something hard and heal itself, making it pretty impressive, and Mach Punch to easily finish off something like Krookodile or Heliolisk when in need. It also has a strong Knock Off, and having offensive recovery and priority would also make it a neat Bulk Up user as those two moves would make it resilient and effective. I think some of the sets it would have are Sheer Force+LO (neat set that can heal itself with Drain Punch and use elemental punches/Poison Jab and hit damn hard), AV (kinda bad but it wouldn't do badly against offensive teams, it would be a nice pain in the ass actually for such teams), Bulk Up, and CB with Superpower.

That being said, I'm sure both Conkeldurr and Sylveon would be really good in UU if they drop, though at the same time, considering what they do, they would also probably invalidate Machamp and Florges usage and send both of them to RU, essentially replacing both of them in their uses in the tier.

 

[Bluerain]

So Machamp's and Florges' speed advantage really doesn't matter over everything else Conkeldurr and Sylveon are better at then, right?

 

[Revelation]

I think Florges will still have a niche with its Calm Mind set but I agree Sylveon is going to take its place tbh.

 

[LeoLancaster]

I don't think Sylveon will completely eradicate Florges from UU, specifically because the best Florges set atm (Calm Mind) is still done better by Florges. As ScraftyIsTheBest showed, the bulk difference between the two is minimal, leaving Sylveon's advantages as Pixilate Hyper Voice and bigger Wishes. Those are major benefits for the classic defensive cleric set, but Florges has an equally major benefit for the Calm Mind set in the form of the one-turn recovery granted by Synthesis.

So, while Sylveon does give Florges stiff competition for some of its roles, Florges is still the better choice for its best set. Florges will still probably become worse though, because Sylveon's presence will cause an increase in specially-bulky Fairy resists. But I would be a little surprised if Florges dropped to RU, since many teams will still probably prefer a wincon over a Wishpasser.

 

[d2m]

I don't think Sylveon will completely eradicate Florges from UU, specifically because the best Florges set atm (Calm Mind) is still done better by Florges. As ScraftyIsTheBest showed, the bulk difference between the two is minimal, leaving Sylveon's advantages as Pixilate Hyper Voice and bigger Wishes. Those are major benefits for the classic defensive cleric set, but Florges has an equally major benefit for the Calm Mind set in the form of the one-turn recovery granted by Synthesis.

So, while Sylveon does give Florges stiff competition for some of its roles, Florges is still the better choice for its best set. Florges will still probably become worse though, because Sylveon's presence will cause an increase in specially-bulky Fairy resists. But I would be a little surprised if Florges dropped to RU, since many teams will still probably prefer a wincon over a Wishpasser.

Thing is that even the CM set doesn't usually sweep anything, it mainly checks things and uses CM as something to threaten bulky defenders on the other side so they can't just whittle it down or PP stall. Sylveon's recovery is worse so it can't really check as often, but it CAN and WILL sweep teams given it's massive offensive capabilities, while checking most of the same things.

 

[Thisbemyalt]

Thing is that even the CM set doesn't usually sweep anything, it mainly checks things and uses CM as something to threaten bulky defenders on the other side so they can't just whittle it down or PP stall. Sylveon's recovery is worse so it can't really check as often, but it CAN and WILL sweep teams given it's massive offensive capabilities, while checking most of the same things.

CM florges can absolutely sweep lol the thing is an absolute monster and can setup on a good amount of mons while also hitting very hard neutrally compared to other walls, I can't tell you how many games florges has just cleaned up 3-4 mons on its own. Honestly I think specs sylveon will be the real threat as our switchins to it are extremely limited considering even resists like mega aggron takes 40 and forre/doub get 2hkod. The cleric set will be cool and all but I would think bulkier teams would prefer the wincon florges brings while also being a fine cleric to an extent.

 

[DaSpoofy]

CM florges can absolutely sweep lol the thing is an absolute monster and can setup on a good amount of mons while also hitting very hard neutrally compared to other walls, I can't tell you how many games florges has just cleaned up 3-4 mons on its own. Honestly I think specs sylveon will be the real threat as our switchins to it are extremely limited considering even resists like mega aggron takes 40 and forre/doub get 2hkod. The cleric set will be cool and all but I would think bulkier teams would prefer the wincon florges brings while also being a fine cleric to an extent.

Florges should only be running the CM set if Sylveon drops. Its not losing anything other than the surprise factor which was dying off anyway.

E: Yeah I wasnt arguing I was just saying stuff. I don't know why i quoted you but I agree with what your saying

 

[Thisbemyalt]

Florges should only be running the CM set if Sylveon drops. Its not losing anything other than the surprise factor which was dying off anyway.

I never said it should run the cleric set I meant that the CM set already provides aroma support so it works as a psuedo cleric and a win con

 

[Tymano]

In the tier shift we got Zapdos....

And nothing else....,

Conkeldurr missed dropping by .005%