I've used Protean Marowak before. The problem is that, again, AteSpeed destroys it, and that it doesn't do well against bulkier teams. Your strongest move that you'll generally use is Sucker Punch (good luck outspeeding anything with base 45 Speed), so you get absolutely destroyed by status, especially Will-o-Wisp. Then, lacking a good boosting move (I think all Kecleon gets is PUP), you just don't hit hard enough to break most walls.
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Inheritance [Prime Council Elected]
- Thread starter Snaquaza
- Start date
I've peaked the ladder and I'm probably at around #3 - #5 now. This is the set that I've been using to destroy things. When I present to them, people don't like it because "Hustle is bad." Well, turns out it's been one of the best members of my team.
Togekiss (Staraptor) @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant nature
- Extremespeed
- Defog
- Trick
- Thunder Wave/Heal Bell/Roost
This is, by far, my best offense destroyer so far. Wanna know why I use Staraptor instead of Ursaring? Staraptor outspeeds all of the -atespeeder pre Mega. Yeah lol. It's pointless if you outspeed, but lacks of power to 1HKO things. Really?
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Staraptor Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 261-307 (96.3 - 113.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Yeah. Calcs don't lie. This is the bulkiest of the -atespeeders. You outspeed them pre mega and you have a high chance to KO them. Do you know what this means? Even the almighty -atespeeders can't revenge you. Another proof?
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Staraptor Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 199-235 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even the almighty Suicune can't switch in. Very cool huh. So u don't have to worry if you see Suicune in your opponent's team. Just Espeed away.
The weakness? Because Togekiss' Physical coverage is bad, I fill it with Status moves. Trick lets it cripple Stall pokes, so this poke isn't that useless vs Stall teams. The other moves is for team needs if you need a Defogger or cleric.
Togekiss (Staraptor) @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant nature
- Extremespeed
- Defog
- Trick
- Thunder Wave/Heal Bell/Roost
This is, by far, my best offense destroyer so far. Wanna know why I use Staraptor instead of Ursaring? Staraptor outspeeds all of the -atespeeder pre Mega. Yeah lol. It's pointless if you outspeed, but lacks of power to 1HKO things. Really?
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Staraptor Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 261-307 (96.3 - 113.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Yeah. Calcs don't lie. This is the bulkiest of the -atespeeders. You outspeed them pre mega and you have a high chance to KO them. Do you know what this means? Even the almighty -atespeeders can't revenge you. Another proof?
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Staraptor Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 199-235 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even the almighty Suicune can't switch in. Very cool huh. So u don't have to worry if you see Suicune in your opponent's team. Just Espeed away.
The weakness? Because Togekiss' Physical coverage is bad, I fill it with Status moves. Trick lets it cripple Stall pokes, so this poke isn't that useless vs Stall teams. The other moves is for team needs if you need a Defogger or cleric.
If you're the one that I keep running into on the ladder using this, the fatal downside is that apparently Extremespeed has like 20% accuracy lol.
As a side note, I saw someone use this earlier today and I thought it was really creative:
Doublade @ Eviolite
Ability: Unaware
EVs: ???
??? Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Moonlight
- ???
- ???
Apparently Clefable gets Meteor Mash? This threw me off because people only use Suicune and Cresselia as Unaware users and my anti-Unaware answer can handle both of them, but not a Steel type. Cool set, whoever you were.
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Yeah I can't deny that Extremespeed sometimes miss. If you like to gamble (like me), this set is really worth it I think.
Gengar @ Choice Specs
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Trick
- Flamethrower / Nasty Plot / Taunt
Disguise yourself as Ursaring and start wreaking havoc on their team. This works out especially well because even versus people that have seen the set, you can bluff them by sending out the real Ursaring. Even more deadly because several of Ursaring's premier counters, Doublade and Ferrothorn, absolutely HATE switching into Focus Blast or Shadow Ball. I can't understate this thing's effectiveness. Since Gengar usually runs Sheer Force, almost nobody expects the Illusion and will usually go for a Fighting move or risk a "speed tie" with their own E-speed while you just Focus Blast them into oblivion. Really, Shadow Ball and Focus Blast are the only two moves you need. The other moves are filler because Zoroark's special movepool is really shallow.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-289649088
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Trick
- Flamethrower / Nasty Plot / Taunt
Disguise yourself as Ursaring and start wreaking havoc on their team. This works out especially well because even versus people that have seen the set, you can bluff them by sending out the real Ursaring. Even more deadly because several of Ursaring's premier counters, Doublade and Ferrothorn, absolutely HATE switching into Focus Blast or Shadow Ball. I can't understate this thing's effectiveness. Since Gengar usually runs Sheer Force, almost nobody expects the Illusion and will usually go for a Fighting move or risk a "speed tie" with their own E-speed while you just Focus Blast them into oblivion. Really, Shadow Ball and Focus Blast are the only two moves you need. The other moves are filler because Zoroark's special movepool is really shallow.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-289649088
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I don't think it's supposed to take Natures and shinyness into account when checking legality, the OP says that mons are donating only their abilities and moves. Snaquaza can you confirm?
Yeah it isn't supposed to, but for some reason, disabling illegalities are very hard to code. We had the same problem last April and it didn't get fixed for the entire month. At first, there's the rule of "you can ignore illegalities when inheriting from any poke" but it was erased just because of this problem.
Edit: Apparently someone already asked to make a Viability Ranking, so ignore the text above.
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On the topic of hoopa c one set I have been loving on an espeed offence team is this:
Hoopa @ Spooky Plate
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 120 HP / 252 SpA / 136 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Nasty Plot
- Recover
Many people are slapping together teams full of wallbreakers which have immense power but they actually lose to the average stall build. Goodra + chansey + doublade + suicune + Heatran and another mon is able to check all the big wallbraekers such adapt espeeds + return, primal weather abusers, physical set up sweepers etc. Literally the only mon I could find that doesn't need extremely offensive plays to win against these perfectly built stall teams (im sure there is more) to win is this. Inheriting from porygon-z, both stabs literally hit like a truck, shadow ball more so. At +2 Hoopa-C is just running through the average stall teams, with +2 shadow ball ohkoing all but chansey and goodra, with goodra taking like 60-70 and chansey taking 85% or so from psyshocl. Add on recover for longevity and you actually have to be seriously outplayed to lose against an average inh stall build with this mon.
Enjoy! :D
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-289503364 - heres a nice replay showing hoopa fuck up aja's stall
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Aggron (Aerodactyl) @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 40 Def / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Thunder Punch
- Superpower
Used this and surprised at how powerful Head Smash is. Hits like a giant truck. Rock is a good enough attacking type (nothing is immune to it) to spam. Given EVs to outspeed Jolly Weavile. Remaining EVs to Def because most things that outrun this set are priority or scarf users. You can play with scarf and/or use an Adamant Nature if you want. Aggron has other useful stuff as well.
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 40 Def / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Earthquake
- Thunder Punch
- Superpower
Used this and surprised at how powerful Head Smash is. Hits like a giant truck. Rock is a good enough attacking type (nothing is immune to it) to spam. Given EVs to outspeed Jolly Weavile. Remaining EVs to Def because most things that outrun this set are priority or scarf users. You can play with scarf and/or use an Adamant Nature if you want. Aggron has other useful stuff as well.
Time to present my nasty anti lead;
Weavile (inherits from golurk) @ Focus Sash OR Life orb OR Lum Berry
Ability: No guard
EVs: 252 atk / 252 spe / 4 def
Jolly nature
- Magic Coat
- Dynamic Punch
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
You now have a lead that will fuck over suicide leads trying to stack hazards or sleep you due of magic coat, and many other shenigans on top.
You can inflict confusion on cocky setuppers. Ghosts fear you cause weavile. You have the coverage to kill many many things very easily, specially against offense teams.
In general, this set will cause big frustation to all but trick room leads as you have coverage to hit many common leads for super effective damage and you can foil nearly all forms of first turn setups due of magic coat bouncing back their status move (ignoring foes magic bounce too!) and confusion caused by dynamic punch.
I've had people forfeit in first few turns when I bounced back their spore/sleep powder, mold breaker rocks or caused their swords and dragon dances to e speed sweep foil with confusion cause they expected weavile wouldnt stay in :^).
In general, you could go for machamp to get knock off, but magic coat is just too awesome for weavile to just pass as it gives you just so much utility and allows your weavile to mess with stall mons trying to will o it as icing on the cake.
For item, it depends on your team really, if you want to use this set purely for anti lead, focus sash is good. Life orb if you have other uses such as clean up and lum berry is for people who are uncertain on their podracing ability and wish to play safe.
Confusion + anti status move = bad times inc.
Weavile (inherits from golurk) @ Focus Sash OR Life orb OR Lum Berry
Ability: No guard
EVs: 252 atk / 252 spe / 4 def
Jolly nature
- Magic Coat
- Dynamic Punch
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
You now have a lead that will fuck over suicide leads trying to stack hazards or sleep you due of magic coat, and many other shenigans on top.
You can inflict confusion on cocky setuppers. Ghosts fear you cause weavile. You have the coverage to kill many many things very easily, specially against offense teams.
In general, this set will cause big frustation to all but trick room leads as you have coverage to hit many common leads for super effective damage and you can foil nearly all forms of first turn setups due of magic coat bouncing back their status move (ignoring foes magic bounce too!) and confusion caused by dynamic punch.
I've had people forfeit in first few turns when I bounced back their spore/sleep powder, mold breaker rocks or caused their swords and dragon dances to e speed sweep foil with confusion cause they expected weavile wouldnt stay in :^).
In general, you could go for machamp to get knock off, but magic coat is just too awesome for weavile to just pass as it gives you just so much utility and allows your weavile to mess with stall mons trying to will o it as icing on the cake.
For item, it depends on your team really, if you want to use this set purely for anti lead, focus sash is good. Life orb if you have other uses such as clean up and lum berry is for people who are uncertain on their podracing ability and wish to play safe.
Confusion + anti status move = bad times inc.
It is true a lot of stall mons outspeed him, but look how hard they are hit on a switchin.
252+ Atk Thick Club Protean Marowak Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 320-378 (72 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Bye Cress! Don't even bother if you're SpD spread.
252+ Atk Thick Club Protean Marowak Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Now obviously I'm running FakeOut, Shadow Sneak, SuckerPunch, DoubleEdge, and Knock Off, but I'm sure one is capable of choosing the moves their team needs most.
Also, if you protean to ghost type, ESpeed can't touch you, and he can even be used to kill weakened -atespeeders with FakeOut.
Prankster status is bad, doublade gets owned by knock off, and offensive will o wispers get beat by fake out + shadow sneak mostly. I mean it's not perfect but give him some credit for power and versatility
Sableye-Mega (Cresselia) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Metal Burst
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
Tried this set earlier; easy to manage and extremely annoying. Taunt everything (unless you're sure it's an attacker), then proceed with Metal Burst. It blocks status with Magic Bounce. Physical attackers get burned, while special attackers can't do much. If the enemy U-Turns out, his/her switch-in gets the Metal Burst.
Chansey can pull this off as well, just change the item, EVs and Nature.
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Def
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Metal Burst
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
Tried this set earlier; easy to manage and extremely annoying. Taunt everything (unless you're sure it's an attacker), then proceed with Metal Burst. It blocks status with Magic Bounce. Physical attackers get burned, while special attackers can't do much. If the enemy U-Turns out, his/her switch-in gets the Metal Burst.
Chansey can pull this off as well, just change the item, EVs and Nature.
Magic bounce cresselia isn't that great, it's mostly outclassed by chansey, who appreciates will-o-wisp and metal burst a lot more.
I know. I just used a Cresselia to soak up Fighting-type damage, as I had a Magnezone and Lopunny on that team. It also helps that Cresselia doesn't mind getting its item knocked off.
Hydreigon (Volcanion) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Surf
- Flamethrower
- Roost
- Earth Power
I've been using this thing a lot and it surprises a lot of people (including myself). Its attacks are insanely powerful coming off 130 SpA and Modest Nature. It can also take hits because of its natural bulk. Most people get caught off-guard by Levitate and get OHKOd with neutral hits. I don't think anyone would be Earthquaking it now that I'm posting here.
EDIT: Unreleased stuff fixed. XD
OLD GREGG (im back baby)
old gregg for life
Has anyone had any success with fairy aura cress? I've been wanting to try it and haven't gotten around to it. Xerneas has what it needs to go offensive I believe.
Might as well run lo rampardos mate, adamant ramp hits harder than marowak and outspeeds suicune / cress / slower defensive mons.
Also, might as well run another item on that hoopa to 2hko chansey, if you're packing roost use a life orb.
Also, run enough speed to outspeed base 100 imo. (240-ish)
On a side note, I've been trying out adapt ambipom to outspeed other espeeders and because I like how it looks, it's actually pretty decent.
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Landorus-Incarnate should be unbanned -- probably an oversight that it wasn't added to the unban list, tbh. Apart from being the most Specially powerful non-mega Ground-type, its stats and typing aren't banworthy, and there are better sheer force users than it that are completely balanced.
Ooh, I do like the idea of using Rampardos. He sacrifices a little physical bulk and a better switch-in typing (ground= 1 immunity, 3 weaknesses v.s. Rock= 0 immunities, 4 weaknesses) for a tiny bit more power and +13 speed points, which does help outspeed defensive mons. Ramp can run 252 speed much better than Marowak.
252+ Atk Life Orb Rampardos Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 278-329 (68.8 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Protean Marowak Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 259-306 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Protean Marowak Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 259-306 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Rampardos having to run a Life orb has a pro and con: it makes him stronger than Marowak and is significantly less detrimental to his power if Tricked/Knocked Off, but it does come with that nasty recoil and amplifies Marowak's better hit-taking abilities.
That said, I do think Rampardos is superior because he is less reliant on Sucker Punch and can outspeed bulky mons in order to get the 2HKO and not get stalled out of PP from constant Recover-ing. However, one can still use Marowak because it is much more likely he will survive longer in battle than Rampardos.
On the subject of Adaptability ESpeed, I feel like everyone knows about Ursaring because he is the normal type with the highest raw attack stat (cuz King and Gigas got banned), but are people really using it much? I see this about Ambipom and it makes me wonder who the best Normal type for the job is. There are many Normal Flyings like Braviary who would love to do the job, but MegaLuc doesn't have any physical flying STAB for them to abuse with Adaptability.
I personally like to use Hustle Extreme Speed (from Togekiss) on Braviary as it hits like a truck. Aerial Ace for reliable STAB, Drain Punch for coverage and Roost in the last slot. With a Life Orb there isn't much you can't 2HKO.
What do people think are some underrated donors? I think Lugia is very underrated, as it has a fantastic movepool: Calm Mind, Bolt Beam, Psyshock, Earth Power, Aeroblast, Dual Screens, reliable recovery, Psycho Boost (although you have to run Pressure) and Multiscale. It's best used on special Flying types (shout out to Thundurus).
What do people think are some underrated donors? I think Lugia is very underrated, as it has a fantastic movepool: Calm Mind, Bolt Beam, Psyshock, Earth Power, Aeroblast, Dual Screens, reliable recovery, Psycho Boost (although you have to run Pressure) and Multiscale. It's best used on special Flying types (shout out to Thundurus).
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-289712398
Chatter is broken. Please ban this shit, we do not need this kind of garbage in our metagame
Chatter is broken. Please ban this shit, we do not need this kind of garbage in our metagame
how it completely swept you down to your last mon and then annihilated that one too as it struggled itself to death trying to survive the terrible onslaught while carrying the name of best special wall in the game, truly gave me a tear in the eye
Just thought I would put these two together and see what happens.
Is this sarcasm I hear? lol
True the Chatter did not sweep his team but it still broke down 3 of his tanks (heatran, umbreon and Goodra) which Torn should not be able to beat. It just, shouldn't be able to unless you are sheer force with SE coverage, but he wasn't, he just grabbed Chatter and ran.
I think this example is worth something
xJownage
Even pendulums swing both ways
Chopin Alkaninoff I will be revamping the viability rankings with the help of you and several others and then reposting them, most likely this weekend. Saturday morning-midday is the time period i'm thinking of. I will ask several premier players to help me out, including those who are playing a lot on the new ladder.
I mean, I can probably dig up a replay of a bulky Togekiss flinching Chansey to death in OU (I've definitely seen it happen), but that doesn't really mean anything. The fact that the Chatter victim still won by a wide margin is important -- all it succeeded in doing is being really annoying. Hell, Confuse Ray or even Thunder Wave does that. It's one of those things that I can confidently say the OM wouldn't miss, so I can't argue that hard for it, but if we want to be conservative in bans, it doesn't pose enough of a threat to be worthy of one.
Lcass4919
The Xatu Warrior
^this right here is my main stance on the point. NOBODY has shown any form of replay of chatter being GAME BREAKING. people have shown replays of it "doing work" but honestly, lets not ban chatter because its chatter. HOWEVER, i will say, im not just idley waiting for someone to show me, as i myself decided to take initiative, and try out chatter myself...and...to be quite honest, its pretty...mediocre. it puts in work...sometimes. but thats the problem, i expected more out of tornadus on a hax-driven team. and allthough i won more then i lost...it was only like...60% out of 100. it really wasnt enough for me to jump on my boots. chatter is a really good move, dont get me wrong, but its just kinda like..."oh, someone hit through chatter each turn and KOed me" honestly, im not saying "I HAD NO PROBLEMS NO BAN" but...idk. many pokemon are able to defeat natural "Special based" counters(looking at keldeo, psychic types, and others alike) its really not new. sorry guys, but i still dont see anything broken about chatter. after facing, using, and seeing it in action. compared to AAA, TS, BH, and stabmons, it just DOESNT impact the meta enough. i mean, its not even making teams run dedicated counters to it. because most teams allready run the nessisary tools to handle them :s its just....not broken in my eyes. or at least, not yet.