[AAA] Suicune

Grim

The Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

QC: Adrian Marin / Kl4ng
GP: The Dutch Plumberjack / Snobalt

[OVERVIEW]

Huge bulk and a decent defensive typing let Suicune take on the majority of the physical threats in the AAA metagame, and coupled with Calm Mind, this makes Suicune a great wincon for stall and balance that can outlast a lot of its checks because of Scald's burn chance and Poison Heal's recovery. Its great Speed tier for a defensive Pokemon also helps it sweep by allowing Suicune to phaze opposing phazers before they can shuffle Suicune out. However, an overreliance on Scald, due to Suicune's low Special Attack, makes it struggle with foes that don't mind a burn and can hit back in return, such as certain Perish Song users, Skill Swap users like Celebi that can remove Suicune's Poison Heal, Desolate Land users such as Heatran, and Poison Heal users with enough power to break through Suicune. Without Roar, Suicune also may end up as setup fodder for Pokemon that don't mind Scald, such as opposing Suicune and Calm Mind Latios, although Ice Beam also does decent damage to the latter. Finally, its lack of instant recovery holds it back from functioning as a dedicated wall.


[SET]
name: Poison Heal
move 1: Scald
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Protect
move 4: Roar / Ice Beam
item: Toxic Orb
ability: Poison Heal
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Scald is Suicune's main way of dealing damage to the foe and helps Suicune sweep by threatening Pokemon that switch in with a 30% chance to burn. Calm Mind grants Suicune a way of boosting its Special Attack and Special Defense, which, coupled with its high Defense, turns Suicune into a formidable setup sweeper. Protect gives Suicune a shield to hide behind to recover more of its health with Poison Heal. Roar allows Suicune to defeat opposing Suicune without Roar, phazes Pokemon that would otherwise use Suicune as setup fodder, and, coupled with entry hazards, allows Suicune to defeat Desolate Land users such as Heatran and Victini in the long run. Ice Beam is another solid option in the last moveslot, as it deals with Grass-types such as Shaymin-S and some Celebi variants, as well as Dragon-types such as Latios.

Set Details
========

The given EV spread with a Bold nature maximizes Suicune's physical bulk, allowing it to take on physical attackers such as Doublade and Entei while it boosts its Special Defense and Special Attack with Calm Mind. A Toxic Orb together with Poison Heal gives Suicune great passive recovery so that it is not worn down too fast and grants Suicune a pseudo-immunity to status ailments.

Usage Tips
========

It's often a good idea to use Scald a lot early-game, as burns wear down a lot of Suicune's checks. Set up on Pokemon that cannot do a lot of damage to Suicune, such as Doublade, Chansey, Entei, and non-Desolate Land Heatran. If facing foes immune to Water, have a teammate set up as many entry hazards as possible, and then send in Suicune shuffle the foe around with Roar, slowly whittling down their health. However, if the opponent has a Magic Bounce user, this can be turned against you. Protect can be used to scout the moves of foes, particularly Choice-locked Pokemon such as some Genesect and Raikou. Watch out with using Protect, though, as while the extra Poison Heal recovery is often appreciated, it also provides a free turn for the foe to do whatever they want, such as set up a boosting move or lay down entry hazards. Do not be too afraid of super effective attacks because Suicune usually has enough bulk and recovery to take at least one of them, especially with a Calm Mind boost under its belt. You have to be very careful around Pokemon that can carry Knock Off, Trick, or a status move that doesn't inflict poison before Suicune has activated its Toxic Orb, as failing to do so heavily cripples Suicune for the rest of the match.

Team Options
========

Suicune struggles a lot with Pokemon immune to Water, especially Desolate Land users such as Heatran, so Pokemon that can take them on, such as Goodra, are good teammates. Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Heatran that can set entry hazards are great teammates to force the opposing team to take extra chip damage, especially if Suicune is using Roar. Other defensive Pokemon, such as Skarmory and Chansey, make for great partners because they can cover each other's weaknesses quite well on a stall team. Additionally, Suicune is quite a momentum killer on purely offensive teams and thus should not be used on one under normal circumstances. Pokemon like Latios and Refrigerate Thundurus, which can take on Grass-types such as Celebi and Water-types such as opposing Roar Suicune, are great teammates because Suicune struggles a lot with them.

[SET]
name: Unaware
move 1: Scald
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk / Roar
item: Leftovers
ability: Unaware
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Scald is Suicune's primary way of dealing damage and can cripple Pokemon that switch in with a burn. Calm Mind turns Suicune into a fearsome setup sweeper by increasing its Special Attack and Special Defense, making it stronger and harder to take down. Rest recovers all of Suicune's health and relieves it of any status condition it may have. Sleep Talk makes Suicune not a sitting duck after using Rest by granting it chances to use its moves while asleep. Roar can be used over Sleep Talk to improve Suicune's matchup against Pokemon that are immune to Water-type attacks, such as Desolate Land Heatran, by shuffling them around and slowly wearing them down with entry hazards. It also allows Suicune to phaze slower opposing phazers such as Mandibuzz.

Set Details
========

The given EV spread with a Bold nature maximizes Suicune's physical bulk, allowing it to take strong physical hits while boosting its Special Defense with Calm Mind. Leftovers grants Suicune passive recovery to increase its longevity. Unaware helps Suicune take on boosting Pokemon such as Snorlax and Lucario.

Usage Tips
========

Early-game, it is often wise to click Scald as much as possible, as many of Suicune's switch-ins heavily dislike a burn and cannot wall Suicune as effectively when inflicted with one. Suicune can set up on passive Pokemon such as Chansey and physical attackers such as Entei that it checks because they fail to break through Suicune's solid Defense. Thanks to Unaware, it can also set up on boosting sweepers such as Mega Charizard X. If facing foes immune to Water, such as Desolate Land Heatran and Victini, have a teammate set up as many entry hazards as possible and then send in Suicune to shuffle the opposing team around with Roar, slowly whittling down their health. If not using Roar, simply baiting them in and then switching out as they come in also reduces their health if entry hazards are up. Suicune has a decent matchup against all playstyles, especially against passive stall teams without an Unaware user that doesn't mind Scald burns.

Team Options
========

Dragon-types such as Latios and Goodra that can take on Desolate Land users such as Heatran and Victini are great teammates because Suicune has a lot to fear from them. Entry hazards from Pokemon like Ferrothorn are a must if using Roar, as without them, Desolate Land users still don't have a lot to fear from Suicune. Grass-types such as Celebi and Ferrothorn can be quite annoying, as can bulky Water-types, making Pokemon like Latios and Desolate Land Heatran good teammates to take them on. Other bulky Pokemon such as Ferrothorn and Goodra can cover each other's weaknesses and form a stall team together. Because stall teams tend to be somewhat passive, Suicune's teammates really appreciate it checking boosting sweepers such as Swords Dance Absol and Lucario.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

Offensive sets with Primordial Sea face some competition from Pokemon like Manaphy but distinguish themselves with added bulk and access to supportive moves such as Tailwind. Choice Specs is a very viable item on sets like these to maximize Suicune's damage output. Magnet Pull can also be used with Choice Specs to trap Pokemon like Skarmory and some Heatran without stacking weaknesses with Fire-, Ground-, or Fighting-types. Volt Absorb grants Suicune an immunity to Electric-type moves, making it a great answer to Pokemon that would otherwise be able to check it, such as Thundurus. Mold Breaker, while not as much of an obvious improvement as other viable abilities, allows Suicune to ignore the odd Water Absorb and Storm Drain and break through a few Unaware walls such as Mew. Regenerator helps Suicune stay healthy without wasting moveslots on Protect or Rest + Sleep Talk, and Suicune distinguishes itself as a Regenerator user with access to Roar and all-around great bulk. Hidden Power Ground allows Suicune to defeat Heatran and most other Desolate Land users without having to resort to racking up entry hazard damage with Roar.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Desolate Land Users**: Desolate Land users, most notably Victini and Heatran, fear nothing from Scald and can do whatever they want against Suicune. However, with entry hazards up, they fail to defeat Roar variants in the long term.

**Strong Pokemon**: Exceptionally strong Pokemon such as Hoopa, Calm Mind + Adaptability Latios, and Manaphy have or can attain enough power to break through Suicune.

**Grass-types**: Grass-types such as Celebi and Shaymin-S can switch into Scald and defeat Suicune with Skill Swap or Perish Song in Celebi's case or break through it with brute force in Shaymin-S's case.

**Electric-types**: Electric-types such as Thundurus and Raikou hit Suicune super effectively with their STAB attacks but have a hard time breaking through it once it has boosted its Special Defense with Calm Mind.

**Phazers**: Phazers such as opposing Suicune and Skarmory can stop Suicune from sweeping by forcing it to switch out, getting rid of any possible Calm Mind boost and thus preventing a sweep. However, they lose in a last Pokemon situation and, if your own Suicune is faster, can be phazed before they can phaze your Suicune.

**Special Walls**: Although many special walls are setup bait for Suicune, multiple special walls can sometimes PP stall Suicune because they don't take that much damage from Scald. In particular, walls using Unaware have an easy time doing this because they don't care about Suicune's Special Attack boosts. Water-resistant Pokemon with Poison Heal, such as Vaporeon, Celebi, Slowbro, and Slowking, also deserve a mention because they will often outlast Suicune.
 
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Overview:

  • I know it's implied that Suicune's over-reliance on Scald is due to its low Spa, but I think mentioning its low Spa should really be pointed out as one of its cons, as it's very passive without any Calm Mind boosts.
  • I cannot stress just how good Suicune's speed tier is for a Calm Mind booster with Roar; he has just enough speed to outpace every common phazer. I believe his speed tier may deserve a larger mention under Roar.
  • You mention that Suicune needs Roar to not end up as setup fodder to Luicune, but Ice Beam still threatens Latios. Either replace Latios with another Pokemon or make a minor mention of Ice Beam.
  • It isn't explained why Skill Swap Pokemon are able to defeat Suicune. You should solely mention Skill Swap Pokemon (as well as Worry Seed Pokemon) under the Poison Heal set itself.
  • Suicune can certainly take on most physical threats in the metagame, but its lack of instant recovery stops it from functioning as a wall. It should be made clear that Suicune is not a dedicated wall at all, but may function as a solid check to many Pokemon with its Poison Heal set, and a satisfactory check with its Unaware set.
Set 1:

  • Scald: Scald is Suicune's only way of dealing damage to the foe if one decides to forgo Ice Beam in favour of Roar. This may be a bit confusing to some.
  • Calm Mind: I don't think people should get their expectations so high, especially since Suicune's viablity has watered down. For this reason, perhaps you should change "often results in a sweep" into "turns Suicune into a formidable setup sweeper." With different wording if you like.
  • Roar: There is no reason why this set would outpace other Suicune, as there is no speed invested at all. Normally, I would use around 8 or more Speed EVs in order to Speed creep, but C&C is against such speed creeping, so just don't mention Suicune.
  • Ice Beam: Dragon-types deserve to be mentioned as well. With Ice Beam, Suicune can defeat Dragon-types it normally isn't able to defeat, such as Dragonite.
  • Set Details - EV Spread: Not the best explanation of why Suicune needs max Def. You should mention what it gets to beat with max Def and how it is able to sweep more efficiently thanks to Calm Mind patching up Suicune's weaker SpD stat.
  • Set Details - Toxic Orb: Its pseudo status immunity thanks to its Toxic Orb should be mentioned.
Set 2:

  • Scald: This sentence is WAY too similar to the other set's Scald desc! I think you should reword it and once again, forgo saying main damage.
  • Roar: It should be mentioned that Roar lets it outpace other phazers if Suicune is faster than them.

Strategy

Set 1:
  • There are many scenarios where Scald shouldn't be used early game. Perhaps change the wording of set one's Scald description to something like "it's often a good idea to use Scald early game"
  • I think spamming Roar while hazards are up isn't always a good idea, especially when the opponent has a Magic Bounce Pokemon, so change set one's description of Roar.
  • Under usage tips also mention that Protect should also be used for scouting the opponent's moves.
  • Please mention that simply switching Suicune out against a Pokemon that may have Knock Off, Trick, or a non-poison Status move is very dangerous. This part should be long and heavily detailed and emphasised, as getting burned or losing his Toxic Orb could seriously cripple Suicune for the rest of the match.
  • Also mention what Suicune can switch into and wall effectively, particularly Entei, since set 1 is one of Entei's best best counters due to its burn immunity.
Set 2:

  • Mention that Suicune is able to check some setup sweepers, such as Charizard-X, courtesy of Unaware.
  • I don't think passive stall teams have a problem with Suicune at all, as Suicune has no way of overpowering Unaware Pokemon and common bulky Poison Heal Water-types.
  • Last line of team options needs to be better and needs more expansion.
Other Options:
  • I don't think Harvest should be included; Harvest Suicune seems very ineffective due to the constant influx of Pokemon with Knock Off.
  • Mention Regenerator.
  • Also specify that Mold Breaker allows it to possibly defeat some Unaware walls, such as Mew.
Checks and Counters:
  • Mention that phazers may be outsped by Roar Suicune because it is faster than most phazers.
  • It should be specified that special walls can often PP stall Suicune.
  • I think Poison Heal Water-types deserve a mention, particularly Slowking and Vaporeon, because they are not afraid of being burned by Scald and are bulky enough to outlast Suicune often.
Good analysis!


QC 2/3
 

Grim

The Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Finally implemented this, I assume you meant 1/3 though, unless I missed something.

Edit @ below: I thought that since we have enough qc we stopped doing that but okay
 
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  • [OO] Mention Hidden Power ground, which lets PH Suicune get around MagmaTrap Heatran without resorting to Roar + Hazards and generally beat most Desolate Land users.
  • [OO] Just mention Volt Absorb - it's better than Lightningrod and Motor Drive on Suicune.
  • [OO] Add that Suicune distinguishes itself as a Regenerator user with access to Roar and all-around great bulk.
Adrian covered pretty much everything!


QC 2/3
 
I'm going to move this on to GP. Important Pokemon, and TheCommadore is relatively inactive. It seems that everything has been gotten. Since you're on the QC team, -Grim, I will trust that you have done your best on this. Adrian Marin + Kl4ng: if you have any last nitpicks, feel free to post them. Otherwise, this is ready for GP. Thanks for the hard work guys! :)

I'm sorry - I'm incredibly tired and sick. -Grim, write this up, THEN we will do GP lol. I don't think the GP members would want to GP an unwritten analysis. :p
 

Lumari

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TFP Leader
ok

actually come to think of it i'll finish this in the morning, too tired now to concentrate properly @__@

still wip but will finish this after dinner

ok this should do for GP 1/2
[OVERVIEW]

Huge bulk and a decent defensive typing let Suicune take on the majority of the physical threats in the AAA metagame, and couples coupled with Calm Mind, (AC) this makes Suicune a great wincondition for stall and balance that outlasts can outlast a lot of its checks because of Scald's burn chance and Poison Heal's recovery. Its great Speed tier for a defensive Pokemon also helps it sweep by allowing Suicune to phaze out opposing phazers before they can shuffle Suicune out. However, an overreliance on Scald, due to Suicune's low Special Attack, makes it struggle with foes that don't mind a burn and can hit back in return, such as certain Perish Song users, Skill Swap users like Celebi that can remove Suicune's Poison Heal, Desolate Land users such as Heatran, and Poison Heal users with enough power to break through Suicune. Without Roar, (AC) Suicune also may end up as setup fodder for Pokemon that don't mind Scald, such as opposing Suicune and Calm Mind Latios, although Ice Beam also does decent damage to the latter Pokemon. Finally, its lack of instant recovery holds it back from functioning as a dedicated wall.


[SET]
name: Poison Heal
move 1: Scald
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Protect
move 4: Roar / Ice Beam
item: Toxic Orb
ability: Poison Heal
nature: Bold
evs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD (why not just 252 HP? 404 isn't divisible by 8)

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Scald is Suicune's main way of dealing damage to the foe and helps Suicune sweep by threatening Pokemon that switch in with a 30% chance to burn. Calm Mind grants Suicune a way of boosting its Special Attack and Special Defense, which, coupled with its high Defense, turns Suicune into a formidable setup sweeper. Protect gives Suicune a shield to hide behind and recover its health with Poison Heal. Roar allows Suicune to defeat opposing Suicune's without Roar, phazes Pokemon that would otherwise use Suicune as setup fodder out, and, coupled with entry hazards, allows Suicune to defeat Desolate Land users such as Heatran and Victini in the long run. Ice Beam is another solid option in the last moveslot, as it deals with Grass-types such as Shaymin-Sky Shaymin-S and some Celebi variants, as well as dealing decent damage to Dragon-types such as Latios.

Set Details
========

The given EV spread with a Bold nature maximizes Suicune's physical bulk, allowing it to take on physical attackers such as Doublade and Entei, while it boosts its Special Defense and Special Attack with Calm Mind. A Toxic Orb together with the ability Poison Heal gives Suicune great passive recovery so it is not worn down too fast (RC) and grants Suicune a pseudo-status (add hyphen) immunity.

Usage Tips
========

It's often a good idea to use Scald a lot early-game, as burns wear a lot of Suicune's checks down. Set up on Pokemon that cannot do a lot of damage to Suicune, such as Doublade, Chansey, Entei, and non-Desolate Land Heatran's. If facing foes immune to Water, set up as much many entry hazards as possible and shuffle the foe around with Roar, slowly wittling down their health. However, if the opponent has a Magic Bounce user, (AC) this can be turned against you so be careful with that. Protect can be used to scout the moves of Pokemon such as Genesect and is especially helpful against Choice-locked Pokemon such as some Genesect and Raikou. Watch out with using Protect, (AC) though, as while the extra Poison Heal recovery is often appreciated, it is also a free turn for the foe to do whatever they want, such as set up or lay down entry hazards. Do not be too afraid of super effective attacks because Suicune usually has enough bulk and recovery to take at least one of them, especially if boosted by Calm Mind. You have to be very careful around Pokemon that can carry Knock Off, Trick, or a non-poison status move before Suicune has activated its Toxic Orb, because if it fails failing to do so heavily cripples Suicune is heavily crippled for the rest of the match.

Team Options
========

Suicune struggles a lot with Pokemon immune to Water, especially Desolate Land users such as Heatran, so Pokemon that can take them on, such as Goodra, are good teammates. Especially if using Roar, Pokemon that can set entry hazards like Ferrothorn and Heatran are great teammates to force the opponent opposing team to take extra chip damage. Other defensive Pokemon, such as Skarmory, Chansey, and the aforementioned Ferrothorn and Heatran, (AC) make great partners because by forming a stall team they can cover each others weaknesses quite well on a stall team. Additionally, Suicune is quite a momentum drain on purely offensive teams and should thus not be used on one under usual normal circumstances. Pokemon that can take on Grass-types such as Celebi and Water-types such as opposing Roar Suicune are great teammates because Suicune struggles a lot with them. Examples of those are Latios and Refrigerate Thundurus.

[SET]
name: Unaware
move 1: Scald
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk / Roar
item: Leftovers
ability: Unaware
nature: Bold
evs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD (same)

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Scald is Suicune's primary way of dealing damage and can cripple Pokemon that switch in with a burn. Calm Mind turns Suicune into a fearsome setup sweeper by increasing its Special Attack and Special Defense, making it stronger and harder to take down. Rest recovers all of Suicune's health and relieves it of any status it may have. Sleep Talk makes Suicune not a sitting duck after using Rest by granting it chances to use its moves while asleep. Roar can be used over Sleep Talk to improve Suicune's matchup against Pokemon such as Desolate Land Heatran, that which are immune to Water-type attacks, by shuffling them around and slowly wearing them down with entry hazards. It also allows Suicune to phaze out slower opposing phazers such as Mandibuzz if it outpaces them.

Set Details
========

The given EV spread with a Bold nature maximizes Suicune's physical bulk, allowing it to take strong physical hits while boosting its Special Defense with Calm Mind. Leftovers grants Suicune passive recovery to increase its longevity.

Usage Tips
========

Early-game, (AC) it is often wise to click Scald as much as possible, as many of its switchins Suicune's switch-ins heavily dislike a burn and cannot wall Suicune as well effectively when inflicted with one. Suicune can set up on physical attackers such as Entei that it checks, such as Entei, that because they (not too happy with this change but wanted to get rid of the cascading of "that" o_o) fail to break through Suicune's solid Defense stat (RC) and on passive Pokemon such as Chansey. Thanks to Unaware, it can also set up on boosting sweepers such as Mega Charizard X can also be used to set up on. If facing foes immune to Water, such as Desolate Land Heatran and Victini, set up as much many entry hazards as possible and shuffle the foe opposing team around with Roar, slowly whittling down their health. If not using Roar, simply baiting them in and then switching out as they come in also reduces their health if entry hazards are up. Suicune has a decent matchup against all playstyles, but especially passive stall teams without an Unaware user that doesn't mind Scald burns often find themselves without a way to reliably deal with it.

Team Options
========

Pokemon that can take on Desolate Land users such as Heatran and Victini are great teammates because Suicune has a lot to fear from them. Especially Dragon-types such as Latios and Goodra do this very well. Entry hazards from Pokemon such as Ferrothorn are a must if using Roar, as without them, (AC) Desolate Land users still don't have a lot to fear from Suicune. Grass-types such as Celebi and Ferrothorn can be quite annoying, as can bulky Water-types, so making Pokemon such as Latios and Desolate Land Heatran are good teammates to take them on. Other bulky Pokemon such as Ferrothorn and Goodra can cover each other's (apostrophe) weaknesses and form a stall team (or stall core?) together. Since Because stall teams tend to be somewhat passive, its teammates really appreciate Suicune checking boosting sweepers such as Swords Dance Absol and Lucario.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

Offensive sets with Primordial Sea face some competition from Pokemon such as Manaphy (RC) but distinguish themselves with added bulk and access to supportive moves like Tailwind. Choice Specs is a very viable item on sets like these. Magnet Pull can also be used with Choice Specs to trap Pokemon such as Skarmory and Doublade while not without stacking weaknesses with Fire-, Ground-, or Fighting-types that you already have on the team. Volt Absorb grants Suicune an immunity to Electric-type moves, making it a great answer to Electric-types Pokemon such as Thundurus-I Thundurus that would otherwise be able to check it. Mold Breaker, while not as much of an obvious improvement as other viable abilities, allows Suicune to ignore the odd Water Absorb and Storm Drain and break through a few Unaware walls such as Mew. Regenerator helps Suicune stay healthy without taking up wasting moveslots with to Poison Heal + Protect or Rest + Sleep Talk, and Suicune distinguishes itself as a Regenerator user with access to Roar and all-around great bulk. Hidden Power Ground allows Suicune to defeat Heatran and most other Desolate Land users without having to resort to Roar + entry hazards racking up entry hazard damage with Roar.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Desolate Land Users**: Desolate Land users, most notably Victini and Heatran, fear nothing from Scald and can do whatever they want against Suicune. However, with entry hazards up, (AC) they fail to defeat Roar variants in the long term.

**Strong Pokemon**: Exceptionally strong Pokemon such as Hoopa-C Hoopa, Calm Mind + Adaptability Latios, and Manaphy have or can attain enough power to break through Suicune.

**Grass-types**: Grass-types such as Celebi and Shaymin-Sky Shaymin-S can switch into Scald and defeat Suicune with Skill Swap or Perish Song in Celebi's case (RC) or break through it with sheer force (uh, do you mean the ability or brute force? :T ) in Shaymin-Sky's Shaymin-S's case.

**Electric-types**: Electric-types such as Thundurus and Raikou hit Suicune super effectively with their STAB attacks (RC) but have a hard time breaking through it once Suicune it has boosted its Special Defense with Calm Mind.

**Phazers**: Phazers such as opposing Suicune and Skarmory can stop Suicune from sweeping by forcing it to switch out, getting rid of any possible Calm Mind boost (RC) and thus preventing a sweep. However, they lose in a last Pokemon situation and can, if your own Suicune is faster, be phazed out before they can phaze your Suicune out.

**Special Walls**: Although many special walls are setup opportunities bait for Suicune, multiple special walls can sometimes PP stall Suicune because they don't take that much damage from Scald. Especially walls using Unaware have an easy time doing this because they don't care about Suicune's Special Attack boosts. Water-type resisting Water-resistant Pokemon with Poison Heal, such as Vaporeon, Celebi, Slowbro, and Slowking, also deserve a mention because they will often outlast Suicune.
 
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Grim

The Ghost
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
We shorten wincondition to wincon? oo Anyway, ready for the second check.


TDP edit: as of a couple months, yeah--for some background, a "win condition" is a condition, i.e. a situation you set up to guarantee victory, such as Scizor having set up an SD and the opponent's physical walls having been weakened and Steel resists removed. A specific Pokemon is literally not what a condition is, so the term just isn't appropriate. "win condition" in the sense "main sweeper" is being replaced by (the community coinage) "wincon" as the most reasonable middle ground (etymology issues aside, it's a word that doesn't exist in other contexts and we thus can technically apply any definition to that we want, and needless to say it's the most "natural" replacement)

this is a very important point that writers should know :')
 
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Empress

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[OVERVIEW]

Huge bulk and a decent defensive typing let Suicune take on the majority of the physical threats in the AAA metagame, and coupled with Calm Mind, this makes Suicune a great wincon for stall and balance that can outlast a lot of its checks because of Scald's burn chance and Poison Heal's recovery. Its great Speed tier for a defensive Pokemon also helps it sweep by allowing Suicune to phaze opposing phazers before they can shuffle Suicune out. However, an overreliance on Scald, due to Suicune's low Special Attack, makes it struggle with foes that don't mind a burn and can hit back in return, such as certain Perish Song users, Skill Swap users like Celebi that can remove Suicune's Poison Heal, Desolate Land users such as Heatran, and Poison Heal users with enough power to break through Suicune. Without Roar, Suicune also may end up as setup fodder for Pokemon that don't mind Scald, such as opposing Suicune and Calm Mind Latios, although Ice Beam also does decent damage to the latter Pokemon. Finally, its lack of instant recovery holds it back from functioning as a dedicated wall.


[SET]
name: Poison Heal
move 1: Scald
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Protect
move 4: Roar / Ice Beam
item: Toxic Orb
ability: Poison Heal
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Scald is Suicune's main way of dealing damage to the foe and helps Suicune sweep by threatening Pokemon that switch in with a 30% chance to burn. Calm Mind grants Suicune a way of boosting its Special Attack and Special Defense, which, coupled with its high Defense, turns Suicune into a formidable setup sweeper. Protect gives Suicune a shield to hide behind and to recover more of its health with Poison Heal. Roar allows Suicune to defeat opposing Suicune without Roar, phazes Pokemon that would otherwise use Suicune as setup fodder, and, coupled with entry hazards, allows Suicune to defeat Desolate Land users such as Heatran and Victini in the long run. Ice Beam is another solid option in the last moveslot, as it deals with Grass-types such as Shaymin-S and some Celebi variants, as well as dealing decent damage to Dragon-types such as Latios.

Set Details
========

The given EV spread with a Bold nature maximizes Suicune's physical bulk, allowing it to take on physical attackers such as Doublade and Entei, (RC) while it boosts its Special Defense and Special Attack with Calm Mind. A Toxic Orb together with the ability Poison Heal gives Suicune great passive recovery so that it is not worn down too fast and grants Suicune a pseudo-status pseudo-immunity to status ailments.

Usage Tips
========

It's often a good idea to use Scald a lot early-game, as burns wear down a lot of Suicune's checks down. Set up on Pokemon that cannot do a lot of damage to Suicune, such as Doublade, Chansey, Entei, and non-Desolate Land Heatran. If facing foes immune to Water, have a teammate set up as many entry hazards as possible, (AC) and then send in Suicune (Suicune itself doesn't have entry hazards) shuffle the foe around with Roar, slowly whittling down their health. However, if the opponent has a Magic Bounce user, this can be turned against you. Protect can be used to scout the moves of Pokemon such as Genesect and is especially helpful against foes, particularly Choice-locked Pokemon such as some Genesect and Raikou. Watch out with using Protect, though, as while the extra Poison Heal recovery is often appreciated, it is also provides a free turn for the foe to do whatever they want, such as set up a boosting move (a mon can also "set up" entry hazards, so I think the extra clarification helps here) or lay down entry hazards. Do not be too afraid of super effective attacks because Suicune usually has enough bulk and recovery to take at least one of them, especially if boosted by with a Calm Mind boost under its belt. You have to be very careful around Pokemon that can carry Knock Off, Trick, or a non-poison status move that doesn't inflict poison before Suicune has activated its Toxic Orb, because as failing to do so heavily cripples Suicune for the rest of the match.

Team Options
========

Suicune struggles a lot with Pokemon immune to Water, especially Desolate Land users such as Heatran, so Pokemon that can take them on, such as Goodra, are good teammates. Especially if using Roar, Pokemon that can set entry hazards like Ferrothorn and Heatran that can set entry hazards are great teammates to force the opposing team to take extra chip damage, especially if Suicune is using Roar. Other defensive Pokemon, such as Skarmory, (RC) and Chansey, and the aforementioned Ferrothorn and Heatran, make for great partners because they can cover each other'(apostrophe)s weaknesses quite well on a stall team. Additionally, Suicune is quite a momentum drain killer on purely offensive teams and thus should thus not be used on one under normal circumstances. Pokemon like Latios and Refrigerate Thundurus, which that can take on Grass-types such as Celebi and Water-types such as opposing Roar Suicune, (AC) are great teammates because Suicune struggles a lot with them. Examples of those are Latios and Refrigerate Thundurus.

[SET]
name: Unaware
move 1: Scald
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Rest
move 4: Sleep Talk / Roar
item: Leftovers
ability: Unaware
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Scald is Suicune's primary way of dealing damage and can cripple Pokemon that switch in with a burn. Calm Mind turns Suicune into a fearsome setup sweeper by increasing its Special Attack and Special Defense, making it stronger and harder to take down. Rest recovers all of Suicune's health and relieves it of any status condition it may have. Sleep Talk makes Suicune not a sitting duck after using Rest by granting it chances to use its moves while asleep. Roar can be used over Sleep Talk to improve Suicune's matchup against Pokemon that such as Desolate Land Heatran, which are immune to Water-type attacks, such as Desolate Land Heatran, by shuffling them around and slowly wearing them down with entry hazards. It also allows Suicune to phaze slower opposing phazers such as Mandibuzz.

Set Details
========

The given EV spread with a Bold nature maximizes Suicune's physical bulk, allowing it to take strong physical hits while boosting its Special Defense with Calm Mind. Leftovers grants Suicune passive recovery to increase its longevity. (What does Unaware do?)

Usage Tips
========

Early-game, it is often wise to click Scald as much as possible, as many of Suicune's switch-ins heavily dislike a burn and cannot wall Suicune as effectively when inflicted with one. Suicune can set up on passive Pokemon such as Chansey and physical attackers such as Entei that it checks because they fail to break through Suicune's solid Defense stat and on passive Pokemon such as Chansey. Thanks to Unaware, it can also set up on boosting sweepers such as Mega Charizard X. If facing foes immune to Water, such as Desolate Land Heatran and Victini, have a teammate set up as many entry hazards as possible and then send in Suicune to shuffle the opposing team around with Roar, slowly whittling down their health. If not using Roar, simply baiting them in and then switching out as they come in also reduces their health if entry hazards are up. Suicune has a decent matchup against all playstyles, but especially passive stall teams without an Unaware user that doesn't mind Scald burns often find themselves without a way to reliably deal with it. (I think this is what you were trying to say? If not, let me know what you were saying here.)

Team Options
========

Pokemon Dragon-types such as Latios and Goodra that can take on Desolate Land users such as Heatran and Victini are great teammates because Suicune has a lot to fear from them. Especially Dragon-types such as Latios and Goodra do this very well. Entry hazards from Pokemon such as like (smd Briyella) Ferrothorn are a must if using Roar, as without them, Desolate Land users still don't have a lot to fear from Suicune. Grass-types such as Celebi and Ferrothorn can be quite annoying, as can bulky Water-types, making Pokemon such as like Latios and Desolate Land Heatran good teammates to take them on. Other bulky Pokemon such as Ferrothorn and Goodra can cover each other's weaknesses and form a stall team together. Because stall teams tend to be somewhat passive, its Suicune's teammates really appreciate Suicune it checking boosting sweepers such as Swords Dance Absol and Lucario.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

Offensive sets with Primordial Sea face some competition from Pokemon such as like Manaphy but distinguish themselves with added bulk and access to supportive moves like such as Tailwind. Choice Specs is a very viable item on sets like these to maximize Suicune's damage output. Magnet Pull can also be used with Choice Specs to trap Pokemon such as like Skarmory and some Heatran without stacking weaknesses with Fire-, Ground-, or Fighting-types. Volt Absorb grants Suicune an immunity to Electric-type moves, making it a great answer to Pokemon such as Thundurus that would otherwise be able to check it, such as Thundurus. Mold Breaker, while not as much of an obvious improvement as other viable abilities, allows Suicune to ignore the odd Water Absorb and Storm Drain and break through a few Unaware walls such as Mew. Regenerator helps Suicune stay healthy without wasting moveslots to Poison Heal + on Protect or Rest + Sleep Talk, and Suicune distinguishes itself as a Regenerator user with access to Roar and all-around great bulk. Hidden Power Ground allows Suicune to defeat Heatran and most other Desolate Land users without having to resort to racking up entry hazard damage with Roar.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Desolate Land Users**: Desolate Land users, most notably Victini and Heatran, fear nothing from Scald and can do whatever they want against Suicune. However, with entry hazards up, they fail to defeat Roar variants in the long term.

**Strong Pokemon**: Exceptionally strong Pokemon such as Hoopa, Calm Mind + Adaptability Latios, and Manaphy have or can attain enough power to break through Suicune.

**Grass-types**: Grass-types such as Celebi and Shaymin-S can switch into Scald and defeat Suicune with Skill Swap or Perish Song in Celebi's case or break through it with brute force in Shaymin-S's case.

**Electric-types**: Electric-types such as Thundurus and Raikou hit Suicune super effectively with their STAB attacks but have a hard time breaking through it once it has boosted its Special Defense with Calm Mind.

**Phazers**: Phazers such as opposing Suicune and Skarmory can stop Suicune from sweeping by forcing it to switch out, getting rid of any possible Calm Mind boost and thus preventing a sweep. However, they lose in a last Pokemon situation and can, if your own Suicune is faster, can be phazed before they can phaze your Suicune.

**Special Walls**: Although many special walls are setup bait for Suicune, multiple special walls can sometimes PP stall Suicune because they don't take that much damage from Scald. Especially In particular, walls using Unaware have an easy time doing this because they don't care about Suicune's Special Attack boosts. Water-resistant Pokemon with Poison Heal, such as Vaporeon, Celebi, Slowbro, and Slowking, also deserve a mention because they will often outlast Suicune.
GP 2/2
 
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