ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M3 (READ POST #823)

[canasian]

Rotom-C occupies a very sought-after niche in UU of being an offensive momentum-grabber that's able to switch into Scald and beat every bulky water-type. Rotom-H has its own unique set of 'mons which it effectively checks, but the things that Rotom-C checks are generally harder to find solid answers to so it's more valuable in team-building.

 

[Schpoonman]

UU is Bulky Water: The Tier: The Movie, so Rotom-C being able to switch in so easily and threaten them out is hugely important. Of course there's Ice Beam coverage, but it's actually fairly rare outside of Blastoise. It's also not weak to Rocks which is very helpful when checking or countering Pokemon. Also: Dig the Neopets avatar.

I actually haven't seen a Venomoth in a very long time, and I'm slightly torn on whether it should stay in A-. On one hand, Tinted Lens means the offensive Quiver Dance set absolutely brutalizes Offense. Pokemon that would normally be able to tank its moves and KO with super-effective STAB like Aerodactyl or Crobat get OHKO'd after Stealth Rock (Support Bat has a 75% chance to be OHKO'd). On the other hand, its lack of raw power means bulky Pokemon that aren't weak to its STABs or coverage tend to wall it fairly comprehensively.

 

[Malin]

Jellicent --> B+ to A- : This big jelly is a beast. It beats so much common threats thanks to its awesome stallbreaking abilities and unique typing, such as Doublade, Cobalion, Reuniclus, Suicune, Swampert... and spinblockers are always nice. Really deserves to be used more.

I like to adress how good Jellicent is right now. It really checks half of this meta, and another half don't wanna switch on it fearing Scald or Will-O-Wisp. Taunt + Ghost type has always been great for hazard control, and Jelli can stop slow hazard setup, Empoleon from defogging and every spinner bar Mega Blastoise, which no ghost type can stop.

I found Scald to be more reliable with Will-O-Wisp, but if have something to status Fire types (like Tspikes support), Hex is a great option too and is also a safer option against Reuniclus and opposing Jellis. Jelli to A-

edit: just wanna say that the B+ rank actually have many mons that deserves a rise, especially trends like Mega Houndoom, Roserade and maybe even Escavalier, with some discussion.

 

[Jaguar360]

This is totally my fault for nomming 3 C mons at the same time. Sorry for being an idiot -_-

Back to the slate, I've always found it weird seeing Cloyster in C and I think a rise to B-/B is appropriate. It's not difficult to find setup opportunities with it really; Sharpedo, Feraligatr, Mamoswine and various choiced mons give it setup opportunities for instance. It does a nice job of sweeping once it does set up too, particularly with Life Orb + Hydro Pump. I don't think that Focus Sash is the best item on it atm unless its being used as a lead to do some early wallbreaking or something, but Life Orb is really effective at doing its job and, while I haven't used the following, Lum Berry seems good for extra setup opportunities on bulky Waters and other Pokemon that threaten with status. Explosion is really good on all of its sets atm, as others have mentioned, breaking bulky Waters well and paving the way for its teammates to come in safely on offensive teams.

While it doesn't quite have the versatility and reliability of Feraligatr, it can still sweep teams without much effort and fits really nicely on offensive teams in UU. B- or higher, please.

I also think that Zoroark's rise to B wouldn't be a bad idea, though I haven't exactly been using conventional sets with it lately. Its versatility is a huge bonus for it. I've seen a lot of people making use of its Swords Dance set, which already takes advantage of Illusion, but when special and mixed sets are thrown into the mix (along with the Scarf set I posted below that I've been using), the amount of options it has becomes kind of ridiculous. It doesn't really like Max Defense Florges trend, but it does like the rise of bulky Psychics and Ghosts to balance things out. I support a rise to B, though I'll have to use some of the other sets to get a better sense of it right now.

Scarf set for those curious

Zoroark @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Foul Play
- U-turn
- Memento / Trick
- Knock Off

Takes advantage of setup sweepers with Foul Play + Memento/Trick + really high speed, has U-turn for momentum, utility against Stall with Trick, Knock Off and U-turn, Memento and Trick provide setup opportunities for its own teammates.

 

[Swagodile]

On the subject of Zoroark, it just got a new move, Sludge Bomb.

http://www.serebii.net/index2.shtml

 

[The Heartless Dictator]

I don't even want to know how Zoroark is able to use Sludge Bomb....

Well, Zoroark now has a way of damaging Fairy-types now, which is pretty cool. While Florges might still be a problem, it's now got a good move to hit Aromatisse and Whimsicott with.

 

[Ununhexium]

Actually Zoroark does decent damage to Florges with Sludge Bomb

252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 192-226 (53.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 166-198 (46.1 - 55%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 333-393 (92.5 - 109.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

I mean it doesn't annihilate it but it's something

Also for fun

252 SpA Life Orb Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aromatisse: 265-315 (65.2 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Zoroark Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aromatisse: 306-360 (75.3 - 88.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


This actually turns out to be a fair bit more important than it looks as it can actually deal damage to fairies instead of having to U-turn out which they ever so kindly resist

 

[The Heartless Dictator]

Oh wow, that's a lot more damaging than I thought.

I wonder if having access to Sludge Bomb now will give it a bigger niche over other Dark-types for being able to hit Fairy-types a lot harder than the others.

 

[jjoshcja]

Zoroark is painfully BAD when used against somebody who knows how to scout. I've never had a game in gen 5/6 featuring zoroark on an opponents team where I didn't just go "Hi zoroark, you are obvious as fuck". So ignoring illusion.... yeah It's probably over ranked currently tbh since zoroark is just flat out WEAK even with specs due to it's overwhelmingly shitty move BP and mediocre stats. (Hint that sludge calc fails to 2 hit KO standard calm flower)

Edit: I have seen zoroark do a LOT of work in XY RU but that was due to it's stats and coverage being much MUCH better there. High level play has never been about predicting that's just human brain rng, high level play is about correctly analyzing risk/reward and playing accordingly, I would like to think that these rating's are based off of actual skilled play rather than rolling ladder scrublords. Zoroark DOES have good attributes that let it function in the UU tier but those are mostly based on its typing/coverage synergy with slurpuff, a quality shared with the much better pokemon known as hydriegon and mega doom. Ignoring illusion you really only want to pack zoro if you need it's slightly higher speed than hydrie, lack of a megastone, and/or need a tricker/mixed attacker.

Cloyster is amazingly good on one varient of the HO archetype with LO hydroboom. But that's all it does, C seems appropriate to reflect this.

Moth getting the hell out of A rank is long overdue. It's pwrfl but it requires significant team support and does constrain team building to an extent. Also UU is "priority, the tier" and moth is at just the wrong speed tier to manage both strong priority and Maero vs offense. Vs Stall....sleep fodder, blissy used twave, RIP. It does rip open shit balance though so I guess that's a solid niche for ladder play.

A- Jelly Is a good plan for obvious reasons.

 

[r0ady]

K this is the stage of drops where we don't run to the vr trying to rank a Mon that JUST dropped, I don't mean to mini mod but discussion about zapdos should take place in the np thread for a few weeks as vr is a place for Mons that have established themselves in the tier, which zapdos has yet to do

 

[IronBullet]

Completely agree with R0ady here, seriously guys give Zapdos sometime to settle and actually gain some experience playing with it before jumping the gun with its ranking. All these pros and cons you're discussing is based on theory and we all know how different a Pokemon can actually turn out to be in practice. Zapdos is going to placed under the New Pokemon Rank for now, please don't speculate further on where to place it until the VR council agrees to put it up for discussion.

 

[Aquadext]

Completely agree with R0ady here, seriously guys give Zapdos sometime to settle and actually gain some experience playing with it before jumping the gun with its ranking. All these pros and cons you're discussing is based on theory and we all know how different a Pokemon can actually turn out to be in practice. Zapdos is going to placed under the New Pokemon Rank for now, please don't speculate further on where to place it until the VR council agrees to put it up for discussion.

I'm new to VR and a recent forum user, forgive my lack of experience.

 

[Revelation]

But yeah actual serious things: Zoroark is painfully BAD when used against somebody who knows how to scout. I've never had a game in gen 5/6 featuring zoroark on an opponents team where I didn't just go "Hi zoroark, you are obvious as fuck". So ignoring illusion.... yeah It's probably over ranked currently tbh since zoroark is just flat out WEAK even with specs due to it's overwhelmingly shitty move BP and mediocre stats. (Hint that sludge calc fails to 2 hit KO standard calm flower)

I thought Bold was standard? I can't even remember the last time I faced a Calm Florges.

 

[IronBullet]

I'm new to VR and a recent forum user, forgive my lack of experience.

Dw about it. Just keep in mind in the future that this thread isn't for speculation and you should give a newly dropped Pokemon time to settle before discussing its ranking. You're more than welcome to discuss Zapdos's attributes and how you think it will impact the tier in the NP thread :)

Deleted the bunch of Zapdos posts that were posted today.

 

[jjoshcja]

I thought Bold was standard? I can't even remember the last time I faced a Calm Florges.

It's standard for CM and it lets flower tank some hits that it wish tected off regardless on the cleric set.... at the cost of losing to every single strong non-dragon special attacker in the tier. Some argument could be made for iron tail dragons and physical fighting types but florges still flat dies to those even with 252/252+. Basically it's omgflowerisUU, ew aromatisse is some RU shitmon /insert other poke that fills this role without sacrificing nearly as much as cleric florges does.

Apologies for the zapdos speculation, I've been waiting for that bastard to drop for ages.

 

[Thisbemyalt]

The main reason I would disagree with you jjoshcja regarding zoro is that on a well constructed team you can ruse right through a scout, my fren cash posted a core that really exemplifies this of coba+zoro. Zoro can SD on the switch to a bulky psychic or other coba check, it is too risky for most people to scout there because you either risk your reun or you risk your zoro check to an actual coba since no iron head switch in can switch into knock+low kick/whatever coverage you use. Also in reference to cloyster, a mons limitation to a specific set/style does not mean it should be ranked low, cloyster is very threatening at +2 and can easily weaken checks to other late game cleaners such as megasharp (as seen on dodmens cloyster squad). Finally bold florges is by far the better spread because CM is by far the best set and bold is a pretty good option seeing as how a bulky fairy is the perfect switch in to most fighting types, besides florges is naturally sp def bulky and can still check a good amount of special attackers even without a calm nature.

 

[Kink]

Just as an addition to IronBullet's comments, general Zapdos discussion is happening in the new NP thread.

 

[jjoshcja]

The main reason I would disagree with you jjoshcja regarding zoro is that on a well constructed team you can ruse right through a scout, my fren cash posted a core that really exemplifies this of coba+zoro. Zoro can SD on the switch to a bulky psychic or other coba check, it is too risky for most people to scout there because you either risk your reun or you risk your zoro check to an actual coba since no iron head switch in can switch into knock+low kick/whatever coverage you use.

Enjoy an early morning bowl of Sneggy Bebbles!

Also in reference to cloyster, a mons limitation to a specific set/style does not mean it should be ranked low, cloyster is very threatening at +2 and can easily weaken checks to other late game cleaners such as megasharp (as seen on dodmens cloyster squad).

Yes, that is exactly what a mon's limitations mean.

Finally bold florges is by far the better spread on calm mind florges because CM runs calm mind bold is a pretty good option seeing as how a bulky fairy is an almost adequate switch in to most fighting types if they're friggin choice scarfed or named mienshao, besides florges is naturally sp def bulky and can still check a good amount of special attackers even without a calm nature at +1.

Fixed.

Edit for clarification:

I specifically mentioned puff because it has every quality zoroark requires, puff is neutral to rocks, grounded, and not immune to tspikes. Puf can win games in one free turn consistently, zoro can remove or weaken it's checks and counters on the RK/Double/Slow muhmentum, and zoro foces in setup fodder for puff without relying on illusion. The number of pokes that have these qualities are... slim to say the least, this strictly limits zoro's own viability as it's just weak on its own merits. I honestly consider it a C poke on a good day outside of these conditions. Within them it's B- at best, there are just way waaaaaay stronger pokes that bring more to the table in the same role if your opponent can scout out illusion. That said if you're building darkpuff/insert core with zoro's reqs met offense and need a mega slot and need zoro's speed tier then yeah it's your guy.

Cloyster is one of the bet pokes in UU, on overload offense, focused on waters, if you can build with 4-5 slots for defensive synergy. It's an easy A+ within this team structure but outside of that it's damn near a D rank.

Florges runs mixed bulk on the cleric set to always survive strong special attackers in UU after rocks an 1 layer of spikes (or specs chandelure... at all). Florges flat out loses to every single non scarfed, non mineshao fighting type in UU regardlesss of it's spread. So while bold lets it soft pivot better against physical hits and pretend to check some neutral threats (consistently poorly and not with spikes up), that's a big loss when you consider just how friggin strong spikes are in UU. CM flower absolutely prefers bold most of the time, but cleric variants really need that slight invest to consistently do their job on balance/semi stall.

 

[Take Azelfie]

FLETCHINDER from B- ---> B/B+
Fletchinder has some amazing properties allowing it to Roost first turn and harm grass and bug types in the tier such as Whimsicott, Mega Beedrill, and Mienshao as well as deal a lot damage to some of the weaker mons like Sharpedo and Absol. Swords Dance + Gale Wings makes it a really great sweeper in a tier with so much wear down on the opponent. One of the main things that hold it back are Stealth Rockers and Physical Walls but it can burn some physical walls, Roost, then switch. It is also Linda.

 

[Mar1onette]

FLETCHINDER from B- ---> B/B+
Fletchinder has some amazing properties allowing it to Roost first turn and harm grass and bug types in the tier such as Whimsicott, Mega Beedrill, and Mienshao as well as deal a lot damage to some of the weaker mons like Sharpedo and Absol. Swords Dance + Gale Wings makes it a really great sweeper in a tier with so much wear down on the opponent. One of the main things that hold it back are Stealth Rockers and Physical Walls but it can burn some physical walls, Roost, then switch. It is also Linda.

Yes fletchinder can check these pokes, but its also not that hard to switch into since it lacks immediate attack power and has horrid defenses, and because of its lack luster attack it can't even guarantee checking some pokes unless its weakned . But also what has changed to make fletchinder any better? yeah i suppose hoopa being here does make it a bit better but it doesnt KO it in 1 hit, not to mention guess who just dropped to UU??? Zapdos did, zapdos hard walls any fletchinder and since its the new poke that everyone has been wanting and for good reason it will be everywhere in UU and just in general this meta isnt really in its favor since it has such a plethora of bulky water types and just bulky walls in general that can beat fletchinder. Another problem fletchinder has is, Can it even set up, u talk about how much of a good SD sweeper fletchinder is but it finds it extremely hard to find any set up opportunities now in this meta seeing as its easily forced out and that SR is a common thing to face in this meta which preasures fletchinder even more.

 

[jjoshcja]

I feel like you're underselling fletch marionette, it's easily the single strongest priority option in UU and while it does require heavy hazard support +2 acro was pretty terrifying pre zapdos if you weren't packing Maero. Pre drop it was probably worth a solid B+. With zap in tier it's pretty solidly in B/B- though depending on which zapdos sets become dominant in this meta.

Offensive zap is only a soft check +2 252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 154-182 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO

Defensive variants however are a had stop and there's about jack shit fletch can do to break through.

 

[chobby]

Wait Goodra is C??? How? This things rocks with assault vest :C

 

[Tymano]

Wait Goodra is C??? How? This things rocks with assault vest :C

It might be bulky, but Hydreigon and Salamence have good recovery, hit harder, and in Hydreigons case, has a strong dual stab. The special defense boost that av brings doesnt help when it is extremely weak to status and is turned into set-up fodder by mons such as Reuniclus and Suicune. Keep it at C

 

[Kyuzeth]

Wait Goodra is C??? How? This things rocks with assault vest :C

Goodra may have an excellent Special Defense stat and the offenses and movepool to boot, but its AV set can be worn down very easily and remains physically vulnerable due to Goodra's average base 70 Defense. On top of that, Goodra is highly vulnerable to status ailments. Specially offensive sets are typically done better by Hydreigon, who possesses superior Special Attack and a flat-out better movepool, while Salamence is pretty much the best Dragon Dancer in the tier thanks to its amazing 135 Attack stat and good 100 Speed (certainly great for a set-up attacker). Both of them have a great degree of versatility in their sets, which is what places both of them at the top of the list and leaves Goodra rather niche in comparison.

On another note, welcome to Smogon!

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

To be quite honest, while I'm not gonna say anything regarding Goodra's rank placement, I feel the responses to that post are being unfair to Goodra as a whole. I personally am not a huge fan of the AV set and I honestly think that's the worst way to use Goodra. Its Choice sets however are actually pretty neat. I've used Goodra quite a bit lately out of my own curiosity, and while it does have some issues, I have found that it really does check quite a few things in the tier (it has the resistances to really use its great Special Defense well), and then it can do quite a bit of damage once it switches into something. The Banded set can switch into Seed Flares from Shaymin for free, and sponge shit like Fire Blast and Volt Switch coming from stuff like Chandelure, Heliolisk, etc. If you do wind up switching into that stuff, Goodra can fire a pretty powerful attack for super effective damage given its incredibly good offensive movepool and coverage, or just outright fire a strong Outrage or Draco Meteor (depending on whether you use Band or Specs). The Band set isn't fodder for Suicune because you have the luxury of Power Whip, which hits Suicune pretty damn hard, and it hits other Bulky Water-types in the tier hard too (and we have a handful of them), while Iron Tail allows it to smash Florges and Whimsicott. The Specs set can also enjoy the super effective coverage of Fire Blast and Sludge Bomb, and in general, the Choice Sets can find their uses on some teams as something that comfortably switches into many of our special attackers (and surprisingly sponges hits really well) and then retaliate with its great coverage to hit well, fairly hard. The AV set is the worst Goodra set in my opinion, but if you do end up using it, it does have some merit in having a pretty damn good matchup against offense, since it's really hard to take down in a single blow (it survives Draco Meteor from Hydreigon!!!) and then it can retaliate decently well with its coverage, which is enough against offense. Sap Sipper is also pretty cool since it absorbs Grass moves and Sleep Powder (ahem Venomoth). Considering these circumstances, Goodra is pretty capable, since what it does have, its stupid special bulk, and its great movepool, allow it to switch into something pretty comfortably then dish out quite a bit of damage. The constant statement of saying "Goodra is so easy to wear down and it hates status" could really be applied to things like Mega Blastoise too (obviously Mega Blastoise is a better Pokemon, but I'm just saying that thing about Goodra could be said about some other Pokemon too).

I'm not really arguing for anything regarding Goodra's rank placement, I'm simply saying you guys aren't really giving it enough credit. Goodra is by no means some super amazing Pokemon, and obviously Salamence and Hydreigon are way better Pokemon, but I feel it should at least be looked at fairly. Goodra in terms of individual performance is a pretty decent Pokemon and if there weren't so many Dragons in the tier it would be much better. That's really the only big issue with it. Other Dragons exist. That's the real reason it probably is sitting in the lower ends of the rankings. Things like Salamence and Hydreigon are so damn good in this metagame that finding a slot for Goodra becomes...somewhat difficult, despite being objectively decent. That's really all there is to it.

Oh and regarding Fletchinder. It's fine in B-. Its does have some terrifyingly strong priority, but that doesn't change that it really needs a lot of support to work well. It literally has only one good aspect about it, and that is having priority Acrobatics. That's a niche, but Fletchinder needs a lot of support to perform. You need effective hazard removal, or else it's gonna struggle to get any setup opportunities since SR cuts its HP in half. It's so damn frail that finding a setup opportunity becomes difficult, especially since it's weak to Scald and that will probably instantly kill it. It's also kind of weak without a boost, so you kind of need to set up. It's a decent Pokemon, with a good niche and is very capable of sweeping once it sets up, and its STAB is good too considering it does hit some stuff super effectively. However, something as weak and frail as Fletch and support reliant shouldn't really go above B-, despite being worthy of that rank.

Geez I had too much to say. Also btw Haxorus comes before Heliolisk in ABC order, someone please change that, it's kind of bothering me. Unless people want Haxorus to drop from B+, but I doubt that's the case anyways.