Separate Tiering of Mega Pokemon

[Oglemi]

No that's not what I mean, I'd be more comfortable with Pinsir itself being in BL as opposed to NU if we maintain the current policy, as that does indeed make it simpler, but if simplicity is your aim then tiering the megas and non-megas separately would be better for your goal, in my personal opinion at least. I'm just annoyed by the current inconsistency.

Alakazam didn't drop down to NU and back up to OU depending on the ability it had, and that's essentially what is happening to pinsir. I know it didn't get low enough usage to drop into UU, because it was really good, but if it did drop into UU they wouldn't have banned magic guard, they would have banned Alakazam.

Simpler maybe? But not logical because Pinsir wasn't broken in UU, the item Pinsirite was, and following the same logic as with Mawile, Pinsirite was banned to BL while Pinsir was not. And because Pinsir is not a good Pokemon in UU without Pinsirite, it fell to NU by usage as it lost the item that made it worth using.

That's what I don't get about this thread, for all intents and purposes we /do/ tier them separately already in a way, just not haphazardly by trying to determine a "fake" usage-based tier for the mega stone, but instead using a hard-line logical and objective usage based tier for the base Pokemon and banning the mega stone where appropriate.

As to your Alakazam vs Pinsir point, we simply haven't had a case like the Pinsir one until now. We did kinda cover the issue a bit here http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/on-snovers-tier-placement-part-two.3475635/, not perfectly, but sufficiently enough that I think it tends to fall in line with the logic that we currently use for Pinsir.

And I mean, whether or not they would have chosen to ban Magic Guard or Alakazam again comes down to following our policy for what would have been most simple and logical, if Alakazam was the only one with Magic Guard and Magic Guard is what made it broken, then Magic Guard could have been banned, but Clefable did exist so ya Alakazam would have been banned to BL.

 

[Saria]

Why do we tier Shaymin and Shaymin-S separately? Those Pokemon have been considered two different Pokemon with different usage and analyses since DPP, despite the fact Shaymin-S can turn into regular Shaymin mid battle if frozen.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/shaymin/
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/shaymin-sky/

Shaymin's case is unique, but so is Meloetta's and yet we are comparing it with megas mechanic for some reason. There is a significant amount of differences between Relic Song and mega evolution mechanics:

- Meloetta needs to use a move to change formes
- Meloetta forme change has no priority, so things like getting KO'd before doing anything is possible
- If Relic Song doesn't hit a target, Meloetta doesn't change formes
- Meloetta can switch formes back and forth
- If Meloetta switches out, it goes back to its base forme
- Meloetta doesn't change base stats total*

Not a big fan of comparing apples with oranges, but if we are going that way, might as well compare every slightly similar mechanic.

But logically you're banning a move that is broken on all the Pokemon that receive it, in this case Meloetta, which falls in line with our current tiering model, rather than saying Meloetta and Meloetta-P are tiered separately based on usage, which is not the case. If Relic Song were available to more Pokemon, but it only caused Meloetta to change forme, which caused it to be broken, than our current tiering model would dictate that Meloetta should be banned as Relic Song is only broken on it rather than every Pokemon that receives it.

Swagger isn't anywhere near broken on the huge majority of the Pokemon that receive it. But I really don't want to deal with Swagger bullshit, so a better example would be Shadow Tag ban in UU and how Wynaut and Gothita weren't broken at all with that ability. That seems like a big inconsistency and just for the record, I would prefer banning Wobbufett, Gothitelle and Gothorita (arguably problematic).

There's also a huge illogical inconsistency that everyone seems to like: Sleep Clause. Sleep inducing moves would be pretty damn broken if that clause didn't exist, but instead of banning them we decided to change in-game mechanics to make them manageable.

These things are widely accepted and liked by the community, but somehow allowing base formes to be in lower tiers than their mega evolutions is just too inconsistent and illogical for the smogon system.

I'm not going to say tiering megas and their base formes is perfectly logical and that we wouldn't need to change anything to do so, because that would be bullshit. However, I honestly believe the "contradiction" argument is relatively minor, as it basically is a matter of "how much do people actually care about politics in competitive Pokemon?" and the most popular answer seems to be "Not enough to not overlook some minor issues".

Maybe I'm underestimating the problem with "illogically" tiering megas. Maybe that alone alone outweights all the possible pros and is enough to go against what huge portion of the playerbase, including the majority of the tier leaders, seem to want. But if that's truly the case, then we should start doing something about other illogical issues in our current system for consistency's sake.

PS: Just for the record, I believe the quick drop system would be enough to deal with the potential drops

EDIT: ate some words because i'm multitasking rn :(

 

[Oglemi]

Why do we tier Shaymin and Shaymin-S separately? Those Pokemon have been considered two different Pokemon with different usage and analyses since DPP, despite the fact Shaymin-S can turn into regular Shaymin mid battle if frozen.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/shaymin/
http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/shaymin-sky/

Shaymin's case is unique, but so is Meloetta's and yet we are comparing it with megas mechanic for some reason. There is a significant amount of differences between Relic Song and mega evolution mechanics:

- Meloetta needs to use a move to change formes
- Meloetta forme change has no priority, so things like
- If Relic Song doesn't hit a target, Meloetta doesn't change formes
- Meloetta can switch formes back and forth
- If Meloetta switches out, it goes back to its base forme
- Meloetta doesn't change base stats

Not a big fan of comparing apples with oranges, but if we are going that way, might as well compare every slightly similar mechanic.



Swagger isn't anywhere near broken on the huge majority of the Pokemon that receive it. But I really don't want to deal with Swagger bullshit, so a better example would be Shadow Tag ban in UU and how Wynaut and Gothita weren't broken at all with that ability. That seems like a big inconsistency and just for the record, I would prefer banning Wobbufett, Gothitelle and Gothorita (arguably problematic).

There's also a huge illogical inconsistency that everyone seems to like: Sleep Clause. Sleep inducing moves would be pretty damn broken if that clause didn't exist, but instead of banning them we decided to change in-game mechanics to make them manageable.

These things are widely accepted and liked by the community, but somehow allowing base formes to be in lower tiers than their mega evolutions is just too inconsistent and illogical for the smogon system.

I'm not going to say tiering megas and their base formes is perfectly logical and that we wouldn't need to change anything to do so, because that would be bullshit. However, I honestly believe the "contradiction" argument is relatively minor, as it basically is a matter of "how much do people actually care about politics in competitive Pokemon?" and the most popular answer seems to be "Not enough to not overlook some minor issues".

Maybe I'm underestimating the problem with "illogically" tiering megas. Maybe that alone alone outweights all the possible pros and is enough to go against what huge portion of the playerbase, including the majority of the tier leaders, seem to want. But if that's truly the case, then we should start doing something about other illogical issues in our current system for consistency's sake.

PS: Just for the record, I believe the quick drop system would be enough to deal with the potential drops

We determined in a PR thread to "ignore" the fact that Shaymin-S can revert if frozen, because you can start the battle from the get-go with either Shaymin or Shaymin-S and they have significantly different stats, abilities, and typing. It is a contradiction to our current tiering system yes, however one that is logical to do so because the circumstances that create the situation are based on luck. We also elected to ignore to implement Acid Rain due to a competitiveness factor. Doing both of these things was determined to be a net positive in regards to our tiering policy and game playability.

The banning Shadow Tag vs banning the Pokemon that receive Shadow Tag is, again, suitable for a different thread wherein we better determine what is more logical and simple, either banning the ability, Pokemon, or ability + Pokemon combination.

Sleep Clause is not relevant here, despite your attempts to make it so. It is our major contradiction to everything we do for the sake of game playability. It should not be used to determine any policy discussions we hold until such a time that something comes along that is just as broken as multiple sleep to warrant our doing so (I'm thinking here of a move like Will-O-Wisp that causes Freeze).

Now as to your argument for tiering megas. The reason I am so vehemently against this change is because it is a change from a logical and consistent one, a system that has proven this entire generation to work completely logically and effectively, to one that is illogical for: NO REASON. There are zero GOOD reasons to do so, other than the fact that it allows some people to use Charizard in NU and slightly lowers the chance of Pokemon swinging from a higher tier to a lower one. It does nothing to the merit of creating more logical tiers (which I have argued, our tiers are, as of right now, pretty fucking logical since we use a usage based tiering system), and it does nothing to fix a current issue in our tiering policy (lower tiers will always be subjected to the whims of the metagame trends of upper tiers, regardless of this change or not).

It inserts an illogical and inconsistent factor into a tiering system that is already, for the most part save for the minor examples above and a couple others, completely logical and consistent.

Popularity in this instance means nothing to me because, to me, it actively harms our system for what I see as no benefit, and in fact inserts an active detriment (illogical tiering of mega stones in cases of lower usage than base forme).

EDIT: btw to clarify, I mean "popularity means nothing to me" in that, i see your argument of that the idea is popular so we should do it, is a poor one because a lot of dumb things have been popular before. it was already kinda determined that this should happen by the tier leaders, but seeing as how the debate still seems to be in flux i figured i'd argue the point again since i still don't see it as the correct one, and the arguments for the change are totally unconvincing to me

 

[Slayer95]

Antar, how are we tiering Basculin and the Pikachus, again?

 

[atomicllamas]

Slayer95 how do we tier rotom formes and shaymin formes again?

 

[Slayer95]

Slayer95 how do we tier rotom formes and shaymin formes again?

I don't know o_O I am not the tiering & stats expert...

 

[atomicllamas]

I don't know o_O I am not the tiering & stats expert...

Oh, lmao I thought you were being snippy, my bad. They are tiered together because they have same base stats / typing / ability (relevant ones at least). Rotom formes are tiered separately because different base stats / typing.

 

[Saria]

We determined in a PR thread to "ignore" the fact that Shaymin-S can revert if frozen, because you can start the battle from the get-go with either Shaymin or Shaymin-S and they have significantly different stats, abilities, and typing. It is a contradiction to our current tiering system yes, however one that is logical to do so because the circumstances that create the situation are based on luck. We also elected to ignore to implement Acid Rain due to a competitiveness factor. Doing both of these things was determined to be a net positive in regards to our tiering policy and game playability.

They are inconsistencies we ignore because some people decided doing so had more pros than cons.

The banning Shadow Tag vs banning the Pokemon that receive Shadow Tag is, again, suitable for a different thread wherein we better determine what is more logical and simple, either banning the ability, Pokemon, or ability + Pokemon combination.

Alright. Still not sure why that was allowed, even if I understand the logic behind it. It's not like Goth or Wobb without Shadow Tag are usable in lower tiers. (not sure about Goth in PU tbh)

I'll definitely post my opinion in that thread whenever it is made.

Sleep Clause is not relevant here, despite your attempts to make it so. It is our major contradiction to everything we do for the sake of game playability. It should not be used to determine any policy discussions we hold until such a time that something comes along that is just as broken as multiple sleep to warrant our doing so (I'm thinking here of a move like Will-O-Wisp that causes Freeze).

How is it not relevant?

It is smogon's biggest contradiction and it exists because that's what the majority wanted. It was brought up in a thread in which the majority wants to ignore another contradiction. I don't think it gets more relevant than that.

Banning all sleep moves would had been a much simpler and logical way of dealing with the game playability issues. There also the "forced forfeit" solution, which absolutely everyone hates because it was absolutely stupid, but still more logical that our current Sleep Clause. Our current clause exists because the majority:

- Didn't want to ban all sleep inducing moves, but they needed to be "nerfed" to make them manageable
- Considered the "forced forfeit" solution to be extremely annoying

I'm a big fan of our Sleep Clause, but it definitely wasn't the most logical approach. If the goal is to have the most logical possible system, while maintaining a playable / competitive game, then we should take a different approach to deal with the sleep moves issues.

Personally I'm fine with ignoring things like that. In this case in particular is mostly because "ete's sleep clause" was disgusting.

Now as to your argument for tiering megas. The reason I am so vehemently against this change is because it is a change from a logical and consistent one, a system that has proven this entire generation to work completely logically and effectively, to one that is illogical for: NO REASON. There are zero GOOD reasons to do so, other than the fact that it allows some people to use Charizard in NU and slightly lowers the chance of Pokemon swinging from a higher tier to a lower one. It does nothing to the merit of creating more logical tiers (which I have argued, our tiers are, as of right now, pretty fucking logical since we use a usage based tiering system), and it does nothing to fix a current issue in our tiering policy (lower tiers will always be subjected to the whims of the metagame trends of upper tiers, regardless of this change or not).

It inserts an illogical and inconsistent factor into a tiering system that is already, for the most part save for the minor examples above and a couple others, completely logical and consistent.

"For no reason" is arguable. If everyone considered there were "zero good reasons", well known / respected members and a significant amount of tiering contributors wouldn't even bother with this.

First "good" reason is that increases the amount of viable Pokemon in lower tiers. It's not just Charizard in NU. Llamas made this list of potential tiers for the potential drops in page 1:

Hide

Manectric to RU/NU
Alakazam to UU
Venusaur to UU/RU
Zard to NU
Sableye to UU
Diancie to RU
Altaria to NU
Lopunny to FU
Gardevoir to RU
Metagross to UU

Aero to RU
Abomasnow to RU/NU
Sceptile to NU
Ampharos to NU/PU
Beedrill to FU
Blastoise to RU
Sharpedo to RU
Aggron to RU/NU
Absol to RU/NU

Glalie to PU
Steelix to NU
Banette to PU
Camerupt to PU

Second "good" reason is that it will definitely decrease the effect higher tiers trends have on the lower ones. Maybe not right now, because ORAS tiers are fairly stable atm, but just recently Medicham went from RU to OU and Pinsir from NU to OU just because of their megas. With the next game, is very likely we'll get a new batch of megas and more tier jumps like that. It won't completely eliminate the problem, but it'll help.

I'm not expecting everyone to believe those reasons are enough to make tiering less logical, but for me and seemingly tons of other people, including most tier leaders, they are good reasons. I am fully aware of the "illogical" issue, I just don't believe it is something we can't ignore. (hence why I brought up other stuff that have been ignored in the past)

Popularity in this instance means nothing to me because, to me, it actively harms our system for what I see as no benefit, and in fact inserts an active detriment (illogical tiering of mega stones in cases of lower usage than base forme).

EDIT: btw to clarify, I mean "popularity means nothing to me" in that, i see your argument of that the idea is popular so we should do it, is a poor one because a lot of dumb things have been popular before. it was already kinda determined that this should happen by the tier leaders, but seeing as how the debate still seems to be in flux i figured i'd argue the point again since i still don't see it as the correct one, and the arguments for the change are totally unconvincing to me

Popularity alone is nothing. We shouldn't immediately do something just because it's popular, because the majority isn't always right. But popularity is a good way of deciding on what stuff we should work on.

This particular case is popularity + the opinion of most tiers leaders, which makes it more important than silly popular shit like "ban speed boost on Blaziken". That's the reason why I keep mentioning both things and not just "it's popular".

I want make it clear that I don't support tiering megas separately because it's popular; the two "good reasons" I posted are why. Popularity is just the reason why I'm posting in this thread.

 

[The Immortal]

No change makes the least sense. If you think Megas should be tiered separately, then you support what Hikari describes:

"For no reason" is arguable. If everyone considered there were "zero good reasons", well known / respected members and a significant amount of tiering contributors wouldn't even bother with this.

First "good" reason is that increases the amount of viable Pokemon in lower tiers. It's not just Charizard in NU. Llamas made this list of potential tiers for the potential drops in page 1:

Hide

Manectric to RU/NU
Alakazam to UU
Venusaur to UU/RU
Zard to NU
Sableye to UU
Diancie to RU
Altaria to NU
Lopunny to FU
Gardevoir to RU
Metagross to UU

Aero to RU
Abomasnow to RU/NU
Sceptile to NU
Ampharos to NU/PU
Beedrill to FU
Blastoise to RU
Sharpedo to RU
Aggron to RU/NU
Absol to RU/NU

Glalie to PU
Steelix to NU
Banette to PU
Camerupt to PU

Second "good" reason is that it will definitely decrease the effect higher tiers trends have on the lower ones. Maybe not right now, because ORAS tiers are fairly stable atm, but just recently Medicham went from RU to OU and Pinsir from NU to OU just because of their megas. With the next game, is very likely we'll get a new batch of megas and more tier jumps like that. It won't completely eliminate the problem, but it'll help.

If you think Megas should not be tiered separately, well in the current system they are tiered separately. A Pokemon can be NU while its Mega is usable in OU only. The solution in this case is not dropping Pinsir/Medicham/etc below BL as their Megas are BL. This equally solves Hikari's second point.

 

[Bughouse]

To reiterate this, since I'm sure it's somewhere in this thread earlier on...

The only reason that a Mega would be usable only in OU and its base form be legal in NU under the current regime is because 1) it doesn't receive enough usage to be OU and 2) a tier (cough UU cough) banned its Mega Stone rather than the mon as a whole. This happened, for example, with Pinsir for a while. It is not at all an inconsistent outcome. It is the logical outcome of a consistently applied system. Of course we know that the system allows for situations where the base form is used in lower tiers while the Mega is banned to higher tiers. Pinsir was not a new case at all. Mawile, Gengar, Kangaskhan, and Lucario have been known about for much longer.

Moving to the full opposite where we only ban Pokemon and never ban mega stones was proposed before http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/prefer-banning-pokémon-instead-of-items-abilities.3500294/ and rejected. OU didn't change its ban to Gengar instead of Gengarite, etc. Bans of the mega stone are simple and consistent and minimalist.

So some people have tried to find what they see as a middle ground based on usage... which is also not new. Oglemi literally discussed it a year and a half ago in that thread.

I think the main reason we won't tier Mega Evolutions separately from their unevolved counterparts is the fact that our tiering system centers around usage statistics. In order to be tiered correctly, we have to go off the usage of the base Pokemon being used in battle.

In this regard, tiering all of the Megas separately from the base forme creates a situation in which we are tiering ~28 Pokemon based solely on "power level" rather than actual usage. EDIT: There's a distinct disconnect, I'm not sure which would be more affected, the base or the Mega, I think the base.

Bans are the exception, and as fusx points out, we only ban what is broken in its simplest form. Hence, we ban the Mega Stone if that is in itself causing a Pokemon to be broken.

The reason we want to ban the Mega Stone rather than the Pokemon as a whole is that we are banning only what is broken (the Mega Stone) and not a combination ban (Mega Stone + Pokemon), or worse, a subset in-battle Pokemon (Mega Evolution). I won't delve into the particulars of the Blaziken ban, because that is where the simplicity aspect of the broken clause comes into play and not for the scope of this thread.

And to the second pro of "this makes OU affect lower tiers less," referencing Medicham and Pinsir, I call bullshit. Under this new regime OU can affect lower tiers in new and exciting ways instead. If we now consider base and mega usage separately, a Pokemon that is usable in both forms become an issue. Regular Zam is close to borderline rise/drop in every 3 month rotation, which would cause uncertainty that would be unhealthy for UU's development. Other megas in the future gen 7 could offer the same prolem. And there's another funny one people probably don't even have on their radar. Charizard Y become a borderline drop/rise every period too (it was at like 3.7% usage in last data iirc), with Charizard X keeping it high on the OU usage list. Char Y dropping to UU would put a wrench in the works just as much as, if not more than, Pinsir quick rising from NU to OU.

 

[atomicllamas]

Alright, I've seen a lot of talking past each other about which of these systems are logical and which are not, when the reality is that all three are logical conclusions that can be drawn from different axioms taken. The idea to tier them together (ie Ubers Mawile) starts with the thought that a Pokemon's best set is that Pokemon no matter what, if this were the starting point however, then we should also be putting Latios and Latias in Ubers because Soul Dew makes them too good for OU. I am going to ignore that argument from this point forward given it had 1 vote of like 30, and to me seems the least logically consistent with what smogon has attempted to do. The current system starts with the thought mega stones are items, and broken items can be banned, both of these are obviously true statements, so while I don't think this system is the best one, it isn't illogical like some people supporting tiering separately say it is. The final system, tiering separately, starts with the idea that Mega Pokemon are different formes than their base Pokemon, and therefore should be tiered separately. This is a logical statement given how Smogon tiers Rotom-formes and the Shaymins (one of these is even capable of switching formes during battle). I don't think anybody that has a problem with this portion of the statement, Mega Pokemon ARE different formes, in that they have a different BST, and often different typing and ability. Where Oglemi and Sam seem to have a problem is that they don't agree that a Mega Stone is indicative of the Mega Pokemon. I can understand their issue, because a select few Megas do often delay mega evolution such as Slowbro, Audino, and Gyarados (realistically these are the only 3 that do so on a consistent basis, there are other edge cases, but those are pretty circumstantial, and not really all that relevant). It is, however, entirely clear that a mega stone shows the intent to mega evolve at some point. There have been very few, 0 as far as I know, successful teams which bring two megas in a bring 6 choose 6 format. To me the intent is enough to count Pinsir + Pinsirite as Mega Pinsir (for example), so while this system does have one more assumption (mega stone on the correct pokemon shows an intention to mega evolve) than the current system, it is also justified by the fact that smogon does have policies that indicate that allowing more pokemon in lower tiers for the sake of diversity is something we support. The policy of dropping Pinsir straight to NU the next time Mega Pinsir falls below 3.41% usage and Medicham to RU the next time Mega Medicham falls below 3.41% usage indicates that we do want to allow as many Pokemon as possible in the lower tiers. I'm going to ignore "concerns" about Megas which fall below their base forme simply because Mega Garchomp falling to UU (aka Garchompite) isn't a problem in the slightest, UU can now use Garchompite, but Garchomp is OU, I fail to see the problem.

Basically, I am willing to choose the system that requires one additional assumption (that mega stones show intent to mega evolve) because it allows for the diversification of lower tiers, which is something we already have policies in place indicating we support. So, like Hikari said, I'm okay with making tiering slightly less logical in order to increase the diversity and stability of lower tiers.

And to the second pro of "this makes OU affect lower tiers less," referencing Medicham and Pinsir, I call bullshit. Under this new regime OU can affect lower tiers in new and exciting ways instead. If we now consider base and mega usage separately, a Pokemon that is usable in both forms become an issue. Regular Zam is close to borderline rise/drop in every 3 month rotation, which would cause uncertainty that would be unhealthy for UU's development. Other megas in the future gen 7 could offer the same prolem. And there's another funny one people probably don't even have on their radar. Charizard Y become a borderline drop/rise every period too (it was at like 3.7% usage in last data iirc), with Charizard X keeping it high on the OU usage list. Char Y dropping to UU would put a wrench in the works just as much as, if not more than, Pinsir quick rising from NU to OU.

This paragraph misses the point by a huge margin. If Charizard-Y falls because it doesn't recieve enough usage in OU, that is exactly how the system is supposed to work, Mega Charizard-Y is presumably banned from UU, and then it stays BL or OU for the rest of the generation. The issue people have with the current system is that Pinsir, an NU pokemon with Bug-typing, 65/125/100/55/70/85 stats, and the ability Mold Breaker / Moxie moved to OU because a Pokemon that has Bug/Flying-typing, Aerialate, and 65/155/120/65/90/105 stats received 3.41% usage in OU. The use of a one Pokemon directly influencing the tiering of a different Pokemon (defined by its different BST, typing, and ability as done with other formes of pokemon) is the issue people have with Medicham and Pinsir's situation. If regular Pinsir had enough usage to move to OU then no one would have a problem with this, as the tiering system would be working as its supposed to. Also regular Alakazam was UU for all of XY and I don't even think it was S rank in the viability rankings, so idk where you are getting the idea that his would be unhealthy or why that's even relevant because if something that is unhealthy falls it can be dealt with by banning it.

And before someone responds that this would require more bans for lower tiers and thus be bad for PR. I would like to note that on the list I made on the first page, none of those would be broken in their final tier (from first glance), and that the only potential problem is Zard Y in UU. On the other hand, the addition of Aerodactyl, Diancie, and Aggron to RU would mean that the move Hurricane is no longer broken in RU (look at BL2, Moltres, Yanmega, Tornadus, and Noivern). RU's lack of Rock-types that actually deal with special flying types (Rhyperior has issues dealing with coverage and Tyrantrum is 2hkoed by Hurricane from these after rocks or OHKOed by Bug Buzz for Yanmega) has led to 4 bans. These 3 Pokemon falling to RU would allow us to suspect test at least 2 of these to be unbanned.

 

[Zarel]

On paper, not allowing a mega to fall beneath its base form may "make sense" but in reality it creates a pretty huge contradiction. It allows the base form to restrict the tiering of the mega based on its own tiering, which shouldn't be happening to any Pokemon that are tiered "separately". My post also has concerns about whether or not megas really are separate from their base form.

I think you have this reversed.

- On paper, it seems like a contradiction that the base form can restrict the tiering of a mega if we consider them separate.

- In reality, everyone has an overwhelming preference for tiering megas separately because no matter what we do, something will be inconsistent anyway, and many people consider the separate tiering to be the "least inconsistent" choice, and it also happens to give the lower tiers more Pokémon to play with.

 

[Zarel]

Now as to your argument for tiering megas. The reason I am so vehemently against this change is because it is a change from a logical and consistent one, a system that has proven this entire generation to work completely logically and effectively, to one that is illogical for: NO REASON. There are zero GOOD reasons to do so, other than the fact that it allows some people to use Charizard in NU and slightly lowers the chance of Pokemon swinging from a higher tier to a lower one. It does nothing to the merit of creating more logical tiers (which I have argued, our tiers are, as of right now, pretty fucking logical since we use a usage based tiering system), and it does nothing to fix a current issue in our tiering policy (lower tiers will always be subjected to the whims of the metagame trends of upper tiers, regardless of this change or not).

It inserts an illogical and inconsistent factor into a tiering system that is already, for the most part save for the minor examples above and a couple others, completely logical and consistent.

Popularity in this instance means nothing to me because, to me, it actively harms our system for what I see as no benefit, and in fact inserts an active detriment (illogical tiering of mega stones in cases of lower usage than base forme).

The problem is, clearly we disagree about which system is more logical and consistent. The vast majority here (including me) believes that tiering megas separately is more logical and consistent.

What I'm saying is, "logical and consistent" can't trump majority vote if what's logical and consistent is what's being voted upon. We don't have an arbiter of what's logical and consistent... unless...

Can I bring up that since programs won't even run unless their code is logical and consistent? So programmers (like [cough] me and TI and Slayer95) should have a better idea of what's logical and consistent? I don't think it's a coincidence that the programmers all supported a specific side. Especially me, I know information theory. ;) ;) ;)

 

[Bughouse]

It's almost like people will choose the logic that gives them more shiny toys to play with.

You can't possibly say lower tiers don't have a bias swaying their logic.

 

[Stratos]

If you think Megas should not be tiered separately, well in the current system they are tiered separately. A Pokemon can be NU while its Mega is usable in OU only. The solution in this case is not dropping Pinsir/Medicham/etc below BL as their Megas are BL. This equally solves Hikari's second point.

This isn't true for a couple reasons. I quoted you basically at random, not singling you out, because I've seen this argument one hell of a lot in this thread. First, because you're conflating tier and banlist: tiers are based on usage, banlists are based on bans. But more importantly,

Under our current system, mega evolutions are not considered a Pokemon. Mega Pinsir is simply considered as "Pinsir holding Pinsirite." Pinsirite is banned in UU and below, but as Pinsir is NU, it is usable in any tier NU or higher, including some tiers where Pinsirite is banned and some where it is not. Imagine that UU banned Life Orb. It would be pretty silly to say that "Pinsir and Life Orb Pinsir are tiered separately" but that's exactly what this argument is doing. Our current tiering system is completely logically consistent.

Whether people want to continue considering Pinsirite as an item or consider Mega Pinsir as a Pokemon is their prerogative (it seems like TLs voted to start doing the latter) but our tiering system is not inconsistent.



edit: zarel im a programmer get rekt kid

 

[Zarel]

It's almost like people will choose the logic that gives them more shiny toys to play with.

You can't possibly say lower tiers don't have a bias swaying their logic.

I've been arguing for tiering separately (with tiering together as a good second choice, and the status quo as the absolute worst choice) this entire thread, and I haven't played a lower tier in ages. To me, this is about consistency.

On the other hand, is it that wrong to have that bias? This is a game. Having fun is actually kind of an important part of it. Ignoring everything else would obviously be wrong, but to consider fun among other factors isn't a bad thing when we're discussing tiering policy.

This isn't true for a couple reasons. I quoted you basically at random, not singling you out, because I've seen this argument one hell of a lot in this thread. First, because you're conflating tier and banlist: tiers are based on usage, banlists are based on bans. But more importantly,

Under our current system, mega evolutions are not considered a Pokemon. Mega Pinsir is simply considered as "Pinsir holding Pinsirite." Pinsirite is banned in UU and below, but as Pinsir is NU, it is usable in any tier NU or higher, including some tiers where Pinsirite is banned and some where it is not. Imagine that UU banned Life Orb. It would be pretty silly to say that "Pinsir and Life Orb Pinsir are tiered separately" but that's exactly what this argument is doing. Our current tiering system is completely logically consistent.

Whether people want to continue considering Pinsirite as an item or consider Mega Pinsir as a Pokemon is their prerogative (it seems like TLs voted to start doing the latter) but our tiering system is not inconsistent.

There are a few issues here.

The first is, players think of mega evolutions as Pokémon, whether or not the current system does. People say "Mega Kangaskhan is banned" around four times more commonly than "Kagaskhanite is banned" (seriously, I counted). If the system doesn't match people's intuitions, it's a failing of the system. I recently changed the teambuilder to consider megas and non-megas separate Pokémon, and I've had a lot of feedback from people telling them they like it better that way.

The second is, I consider any clause at all (including item-bans) to be inconsistent. They're sort of like a "last resort". Every clause adds more inconsistency to the game and works against the tier system, and we bear it only because we have no other choice. Moving a Pokémon to BL, on the other hand, is consistent and works within the tier system.

I go over what I mean by "within the tier system" and "against the tier system" here:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...emon-vs-pokemon-ability.3555287/#post-6513648

That post is mostly talking about abilities, but if you replace "ability" with "item", you understand why I'm so against item bans, too.

edit: zarel im a programmer get rekt kid

i have a badge for it im better :]

 

[Alfalfa]

The question of banning Mega stone vs banning the Mega forme is absolute bullshit because this is only going to matter based on what policy we set. The effects of banning a Mega stone vs banning a Mega forme are still the same (aside from random Pokemon holding Mega stones that don't work for them, but most of us will agree that is irrelevant), so there really is not any real value of looking at from a competitive perspective.

A central issue that nobody seems to bring up is the precedent of tiering Mega formes differently from tiering their normal formes. We are only bringing up the question of tiering Mega formes and normal formes because we see a potential value in bringing Pokemon like Charizard down to NU. However, do we not discourage using this exact same precedent to tier Arceus formes differently? You can argue the question of the tiering of the base forme, but the differences between Mega formes and Arceus formes are the Arceus forme's activation by default. Pokemon like Garchomp and Slowbro have reasons to not Mega Evolve immediately, but you cannot do this with Arceus formes. We consider Arceus-forme tiering to be overly complex, but it is quite literally the exact same issue as tiering mega formes seperately, sans the question of availability of the base formes. Yet, both Mega and Arceus formes are still item-based formes, and tiering an item-based forme seperately from its base forme is being examined, so why would we tier mega formes seperately and not base formes?

EDIT: People most likely prefer having the Mega formes being mentioned in teambuilder because it is convenient, not because they prefer the precedent it sets. There really is nothing to spin here for the purpose of making a point, for it would not change the majority of people's minds anyways. (this edit is aimed at Zarel)

 

[atomicllamas]

The question of banning Mega stone vs banning the Mega forme is absolute bullshit because this is only going to matter based on what policy we set. The effects of banning a Mega stone vs banning a Mega forme are still the same (aside from random Pokemon holding Mega stones that don't work for them, but most of us will agree that is irrelevant), so there really is not any real value of looking at from a competitive perspective.

A central issue that nobody seems to bring up is the precedent of tiering Mega formes differently from tiering their normal formes. We are only bringing up the question of tiering Mega formes and normal formes because we see a potential value in bringing Pokemon like Charizard down to NU. However, do we not discourage using this exact same precedent to tier Arceus formes differently? You can argue the question of the tiering of the base forme, but the differences between Mega formes and Arceus formes are the Arceus forme's activation by default. Pokemon like Garchomp and Slowbro have reasons to not Mega Evolve immediately, but you cannot do this with Arceus formes. We consider Arceus-forme tiering to be overly complex, but it is quite literally the exact same issue as tiering mega formes seperately, sans the question of availability of the base formes. Yet, both Mega and Arceus formes are still item-based formes, and tiering an item-based forme seperately from its base forme is being examined, so why would we tier mega formes seperately and not base formes?

Pretty sure Arceus formes are tiered separately, they just are all broken in OU?

 

[Magnemite]

I know this hasn't been fully agreed upon yet, but if we end up tiering megas separately, I think it would make much more sense to do it in December than at the release of Pokemon Z. For one thing, we don't even have any idea when Pokemon Z will be released. This, coupled with the fact that it will take a while for things to actually drop all the way down makes me much more inclined to do it in the near future rather than at some point way off in the distant future. Doing it when Z comes out makes a bit more sense from a PR perspective, but I think that is pretty minor compared to having to wait possibly over a year for this change to happen. There's also the fact that Z has the potential to come out right in the middle of SPL or even next year's grand slam, which would presumably mess things up quite a bit.

 

[Alfalfa]

Pretty sure Arceus formes are tiered separately, they just are all broken in OU?

There is always the recurring question of testing Arceus-Bug due to how horrible of a monotyping it possesses, yet the idea of suspecting it comes not with it being broken, but based on the precedent it sets. That is the point I am trying to make.

 

[atomicllamas]

There is always the recurring question of testing Arceus-Bug due to how horrible of a monotyping it possesses, yet the idea of suspecting it comes not with it being broken, but based on the precedent it sets. That is the point I am trying to make.

There is literally no precedent set on testing Arceus formes, though we do track their usage independently, so afaik that implies they are tiered separately. Also since when is there a question about testing Arceus-Bug in OU, there was a single thread in which pretty much everyone agreed it was a terrible idea and should never happen because 720 BST and an amazing movepool. So basically the point you are trying to make comes from your interpretation of some non-existent precedent and some terrible PR thread, the point I'm trying to make is that you have no point because Arceus are (for all intents and purposes) tiered independently (which is why there was even a thread discussing testing a single forme, as laughable as it was).

 

[Bughouse]

My only point Zarel is that I don't think it should be tier leaders making this decision as it is ultimately a philosophical question of "does mega X equal X" (philosophical because it's something that you don't need to be a TL - or even a member of Smogon - to form an opinion about and also that there is no wrong answer) and tier leaders will be biased to make a decision that they believe will benefit their tier now. This is evident based on things atomicllamas has said, for example. It sure seems he wants these drops not so much because he thinks Mega Pokemon are distinct as because he thinks the base Pokemon can fix metagames through theorymon.

This is a strictly philosophical question of tiering philosophy and as such should be decided imo by staff (which still overlaps with plenty of TLs in any case) who are less likely to have this bias.

 

[Slayer95]

My only point Zarel is that I don't think it should be tier leaders making this decision as it is ultimately a philosophical question of "does mega X equal X" (philosophical because it's something that you don't need to be a TL - or even a member of Smogon - to form an opinion about and also that there is no wrong answer) and tier leaders will be biased to make a decision that they believe will benefit their tier now. This is evident based on things atomicllamas has said, for example. It sure seems he wants these drops not so much because he thinks Mega Pokemon are distinct as because he thinks the base Pokemon can fix metagames through theorymon.

This is a strictly philosophical question of tiering philosophy and as such should be decided imo by staff (which still overlaps with plenty of TLs in any case) who are less likely to have this bias.

As long as ideas have an impact in the world, there will always be a bias associated to it. Trying to unlink philosophical decisions from their consequences is one of the ways to get stuck in ideal, non-practical decisions; or worse, lack of decision, as there is no fundamental connection between hard objective unbiased facts and the "ought-to".

Furthermore, by moving the decision power to people who don't care about it, you favor status quo.

 

[soulgazer]

This is a strictly philosophical question of tiering philosophy and as such should be decided imo by staff (which still overlaps with plenty of TLs in any case) who are less likely to have this bias.

but staff is either people who plays the current gen competitively (the TLs with smod aka more than half of them) and people who don't play the current gen competitively (they are not relevant to the discussion). yes there's some exceptions but still atleast every TLs knows what they want with tiering in ORAS lol

and like slayer95 said ''bias'' isn't wrong. the TLs who want the change want to give their community a more fun / better metagame (in some cases) and new toys with close to no risk. They want the public to be happy. The ''logical'' part of it is honestly whatever and like we already have ''soul dew / sleep / skymin /jaja''.. it won't affect OU and if it affects UU or w.e negatively, then ban the 'mons that become problematic. If a mega stone sees less usage than the main pokemon and drop to UU, it can just be BL

Unless you really want to go deep into politics... then you might have to reconsider why you are playing Pokemon

e: @ below

isn't aldaron outl ?_? and duh OFC zarel / antar is related to this, but not all of SS is relevant for this discussion

 

[Bughouse]

soulgazer you really gonna tell me Aldaron is irrelevant because he doesn't play competitively? This is a very important decision affecting site wide policy. Of course all staff are important. Zarel's been posting plenty despite not playing. Antar too. And Oglemi, who doesn't play a ton. Clearly they care.

And yes the bias IS wrong. Who cares if it helps fix RU?! It very well might be the very thing that screws it up in the future. You don't make long term policy choices based on a short term outcome. Smogon will be around for years after ORAS RU is played.