Also worth noting that Furfou can learn Roar, which basically gives Suicune its standard set minus Scald.
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Inheritance [Prime Council Elected]
- Thread starter Snaquaza
- Start date
Fun sets I'm trying:
Breloom (slurpuff) Sitrus berry
Ability Unburden
Adamant Nature (but Jolly works too)
EV's 252 Atk 252 Spe 4HP
Belly Drum
Drain Punch
Return
Play Rough
This thing is a terror if you remove all perceived e-speeders. STAB drain punch OHKO's almost everything that doesnt resist, and unburden gives loom pretty impressive speed. Play rough is also pretty impressive coverage. If you can force a switch on BD setup that's basically gg
Landorus-T (Mega Quaza) Life Orb
Ability: Delta Stream
Jolly Nature
EV's 48HP, 252 Atk, 200 spe (I messed up spread but w/e everyone runs this now)
EQ
Dragon Ascent
Extremespeed
Swords Dance
Pretty self explanatory
Thundurus-T (Mega Pidgeot) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: No Guard
Mild Nature (Modest works too but I like Mild more)
EV's 252 Spa 252 Spe 4 Spd
Hurricane
Heat Wave
U-Turn
HP Electric
I don't know why. It looked fun. That extra muscle on hurricane turns alot of mpidges almost 2hko's into guaranteed 2hkos. HP electric for STAB?
Still messing around, the Breloom set in particular is fun
Breloom (slurpuff) Sitrus berry
Ability Unburden
Adamant Nature (but Jolly works too)
EV's 252 Atk 252 Spe 4HP
Belly Drum
Drain Punch
Return
Play Rough
This thing is a terror if you remove all perceived e-speeders. STAB drain punch OHKO's almost everything that doesnt resist, and unburden gives loom pretty impressive speed. Play rough is also pretty impressive coverage. If you can force a switch on BD setup that's basically gg
Landorus-T (Mega Quaza) Life Orb
Ability: Delta Stream
Jolly Nature
EV's 48HP, 252 Atk, 200 spe (I messed up spread but w/e everyone runs this now)
EQ
Dragon Ascent
Extremespeed
Swords Dance
Pretty self explanatory
Thundurus-T (Mega Pidgeot) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: No Guard
Mild Nature (Modest works too but I like Mild more)
EV's 252 Spa 252 Spe 4 Spd
Hurricane
Heat Wave
U-Turn
HP Electric
I don't know why. It looked fun. That extra muscle on hurricane turns alot of mpidges almost 2hko's into guaranteed 2hkos. HP electric for STAB?
Still messing around, the Breloom set in particular is fun
Guess im the first to post about it if not the first to reach the 1400 mark.
Basically chatter is uncompetitive and 'un-fun' to play against. There is no reason to use it over another more damaging move except for the confusion secondary effect. Now i have no problem with secondary effects like scalds and spd drops, whatever but confusion is one of the more irritating and frustrating things to deal with. It turns relatively simple wins into losses that leave you wanting to not play again. All it does is allow people to effectively get past their checks via sheer luck which to me is not a competitive strategy. I believe the OU banning system got updated recently to try and create a meta-game where the more skilled player will win the majority of the time which imo is where all game-modes should aim at. Chatter reduces this and allows the lower-skilled player a higher chance of winning through something that neither player has control over. Essentially the lower-skilled player is hoping to the odds are in his favour to win what he would not be able to the majority of time. This is unskilled and noncompetitive and should be banned in my opinion.
While Chatter is not the most common of moves people can run its simple effectiveness cannot be ignored. What makes it worse is the donor also has access to a 140bp nuke, boosting moves, coverage moves and recovery. Not only can you hit hard enough with chatter to actually do damage (it would be a different story if it was like 20bp) you also have other options like heatwave and substitute to render statuses/steel types redundant. With a moveslot of heatwave/chatter/nasty plot/boomburst you can 6-0 an enemy team even one that is prepared for chatter simply by being the luckier recipient of the confusion hax.
seems bit late to the party but I really feel like, as I pointed in my earlier post it would be very ideal if people used chatter themselves and tracked all the results in using end and receiving end in this suspect, as chatter has bad reputation with a reason on OM forum as a whole and people really like to jump the gun before taking the metagame itself and its differences compared to the other ones into consideration
but if no one else is gonna do this, I am gonna try see if I can get myself the time on my tight schedule and run two fresh alts, and aim to get em both to the recs or atleast on one before I give more more argument here.
Also, I have to say that donor viability ranking might be bad idea as ranking itself, but making a guide for donors in terms of offensive tools, utility tools, niche tools, stall tools, etc could be good, that way you could point out their strong points and rank em like, how good the potential outcome is, what all you can get out of it, etc. Add some pros and cons, and you know.
Its hard to make viability as viability ranking itself for the donor end as it really lacks the wholesomeness even if donor is top tier, if the receiving pokemon isnt, its bit pointless dontcha think? and it will just be confusing as a whole.
So it's really more ideal if you make it a guide that aims to enlight why and hows of the viability ranking itself, like shed some light what makes them awesome, and what potential you can dig out from these donor mons to improve the receiptant mons.
but if no one else is gonna do this, I am gonna try see if I can get myself the time on my tight schedule and run two fresh alts, and aim to get em both to the recs or atleast on one before I give more more argument here.
Also, I have to say that donor viability ranking might be bad idea as ranking itself, but making a guide for donors in terms of offensive tools, utility tools, niche tools, stall tools, etc could be good, that way you could point out their strong points and rank em like, how good the potential outcome is, what all you can get out of it, etc. Add some pros and cons, and you know.
Its hard to make viability as viability ranking itself for the donor end as it really lacks the wholesomeness even if donor is top tier, if the receiving pokemon isnt, its bit pointless dontcha think? and it will just be confusing as a whole.
So it's really more ideal if you make it a guide that aims to enlight why and hows of the viability ranking itself, like shed some light what makes them awesome, and what potential you can dig out from these donor mons to improve the receiptant mons.
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Here's a Heatran set that has probably seen some discussion, but I feel the need to highlight it anyways.
Mega Camerupt (Heatran) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Rock Polish
Sheer Force + setup: Not just for Feraligatr any more. SF LO STAB Fire Blast off of 130 SpA hits everything that isn't a resist or a special sponge like a truck; for the former, there's Flash Cannon and Earth Power. This is very nearly perfect neutral coverage, with the type immunities that would grant resistance to all three being either obscure or lacking in special bulk. Because Heatran only really needs three attacking moves, the fourth slot goes to the almighty Rock Polish, which lets Heatran capitalize on its ability to force switches against offensive teams.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-291229475 Here's Heatran doing great work after it comes in on Magnezone. Rather than rely on prediction (or avoid prediction and let Rotom-Wash get a free switch-in), using Rock Polish allowed me to fuck that shit entirely and proceed to start murdering things, easily tanking a Thunderbolt from Zapdos when Fire Blast doesn't quite OHKO it. Admittedly, I knew to switch Heatran out on Thundurus' Sucker Punch because I had played a game against the team already, but honestly it would have survived anyways. And yes, my opponent is low-ladder, but their sets were solid and a more skilled player wouldn't necessarily have a better answer to Heatran than they did.
This set pairs exceptionally well with Mega Altaria. Heatran excels at eating Steel-type souls and switching effortlessly into any attack that's super-effective against Malt, while physically-oriented Malt takes on Sucker and Mach Punches that threaten Heatran and beats up Chansey and Goodra. You will also want something that handles Water-types, which are much more of a problem than Ground-types because they resist Heatran's STABs, and Ground-types don't have the Special bulk to switch in unresisted.
... Which does make me curious about regenvest Hippowdon. Hm. It has the stat line for it, certainly, but I dunno if it could get the right movepool for the job.
Mega Camerupt (Heatran) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Rock Polish
Sheer Force + setup: Not just for Feraligatr any more. SF LO STAB Fire Blast off of 130 SpA hits everything that isn't a resist or a special sponge like a truck; for the former, there's Flash Cannon and Earth Power. This is very nearly perfect neutral coverage, with the type immunities that would grant resistance to all three being either obscure or lacking in special bulk. Because Heatran only really needs three attacking moves, the fourth slot goes to the almighty Rock Polish, which lets Heatran capitalize on its ability to force switches against offensive teams.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-291229475 Here's Heatran doing great work after it comes in on Magnezone. Rather than rely on prediction (or avoid prediction and let Rotom-Wash get a free switch-in), using Rock Polish allowed me to fuck that shit entirely and proceed to start murdering things, easily tanking a Thunderbolt from Zapdos when Fire Blast doesn't quite OHKO it. Admittedly, I knew to switch Heatran out on Thundurus' Sucker Punch because I had played a game against the team already, but honestly it would have survived anyways. And yes, my opponent is low-ladder, but their sets were solid and a more skilled player wouldn't necessarily have a better answer to Heatran than they did.
This set pairs exceptionally well with Mega Altaria. Heatran excels at eating Steel-type souls and switching effortlessly into any attack that's super-effective against Malt, while physically-oriented Malt takes on Sucker and Mach Punches that threaten Heatran and beats up Chansey and Goodra. You will also want something that handles Water-types, which are much more of a problem than Ground-types because they resist Heatran's STABs, and Ground-types don't have the Special bulk to switch in unresisted.
... Which does make me curious about regenvest Hippowdon. Hm. It has the stat line for it, certainly, but I dunno if it could get the right movepool for the job.
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So I got to 1400, althought I didn't face any Chattermons in the process (I came from 1300 already) which is well, ironic. I do have experience facing it AND using it.
Let's get started:
Chatter is uncompetitive, everyone knows that. The confusion it inflicts, makes it where every turn your opponent's pokemon is confused you get a 50/50. 50% chance where your opponent breaks through the confusion and can actually react and the other 50% where it can do nothing at all and just hits itself. From that point on, the battle pretty much gets decided by who has the most luck and luck isn't something people want to hear in a competitive scene. While the one using chatter, needs a lot of luck to actually hax its way through the opponent's whole team, it is something that can happen, but not often tho. The real problem with Chatter is that it comes with 2 moves in Boomburst and Nasty Plot. Those 2 make it so you don't even need to hax your way through the whole team, but only through 1 or 2 only to sweep the others with +4 Boomburst. This is easiest done against stall teams as they most of the times don't run any revenge-killer to prevent a sweep. Against other teams, Chatter doesn't put in enough work to be considered banworthy imo.
Also, I want to point out Chatter is not the same as Dynamic Punch or Prankster Confuse Ray. Dynamic Punch, while it has 40 BP more than Chatter, only has 8 pp which is too low to really get a sweep going and Confuse Ray gets blocked by Magic Bounce which every stallteam should run anyway. There is one thing to that is imo as luck based as Chatter: Serene Grace flinching. While this doesn't stay longterm and forces you to click the same move over and over again, it does have a 60% chance to flinch and add a 25% to paralyze as well if you are running body slam on it. This means a 70% chance of being flinched or paralyzed, which is even higher than Chatter's. The only thing that prevents me from finding Serene Grace banworthy is the fact it cannot set-up for a sweep while still keeping the hax to continue.
Chatter is not broken in any way, only uncompetitive. It can only shine against stall and pretty much gets wrecked by any other playstyle. Also is it very unreliable and not something you should use to get to top 5 on the ladder. But still, it is too uncompetitive for me and needs to be banned.
Ban Chatter.
+2 252+ SpA Hoopa Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 637-751 (90.4 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
I'm not sure where you get 16.6% chance of getting the KO, when halving 43.8% is obviously going to be more than 20%.
The Super Luck set per se isn't even my point. It was just an aside about something you can do with Dazzling Gleam Hoopa that isn't an awful/niche Ability.
I personally find it alarming that your core of Chansey+Specially Defensive Unaware Mandibuzz demands Chansey be at full health at all times to have any chance of switching in at all, in addition to requiring the enemy has no hazards up, to deal with Life Orb Dazzling Gleam Hoopa. This is dedicating two Pokemon to countering Hoopa, and they can't actually do it without perfect play and/or luck being on the non-Hoopa player's side. Certainly, they do other things, but again: two dedicated counters, still can lose to the one Pokemon running one build that's still viable against the rest of the metagame. That's... really alarming.
If you're missing something like 10% of Chansey's health -the kind of chipping damage Chansey should be able to ignore- suddenly Life Orb Dazzling Gleam Nasty Plot Hoopa can dismantle your core dedicated to answering it, and it's not crippling its ability to deal with multiple other major walls. That's nuts.
No Head Smash Rock Head one? Head Smash hits insanely hard, and only a handful of things can take it and Fighting coverage. Rock as coverage for Fighting isn't nearly so effective.
Lickilicky has Wish, Heal Bell, and Knock Off. It arguably makes a better donor for shutting down Primordial Sea/Desolate Land Specs, especially since very little is actually okay with switching in on Knock Off, where Toxic is risking a bounce.
You can be inheriting from Butterfree for that exact set, too, actually, so variations on this basic build are a little more flexible than they first seem, as you can count anything Butterfree has that Venomoth doesn't as an option.
AllJokesAside said:
I actually hit 1400 yesterday and then 40~ points vanished while I was asleep. Okay.
In addition to all the concerns that have been laid out by other people, I think Chatter is deceptive. Yeah, it's RNG-based, but for instance a Substitute-abusing set can rig the odds: hit them with Chatter, put up a Substitute until they finally fail to break it whether because they switched or because they hurt themselves in their Confusion (25% chance of not hitting themselves over 2 turns, 12.5% over three, 6.25% over four...), and either re-Chatter or Nasty Plot. At that point it requires extensive "RNG hates the Chatterer" to not end up with at least +2 and a Substitute while murdering everything. Due to Chatter's adequate BP, high-ish PP, and a typing that is impossible to be immune to -even Shedinja is weak to it- Chatter and Nasty Plot is all you really need to kill literally anything. Boomburst and Heat Wave as coverage is a bonus to make yourself a little less dependent on RNG shenanigans, of which you're already rigging things so the RNG favors you by default, in spite of technically being 50/50.
In other words, Chatter isn't nearly as un-viable and luck-based as it first seems. If your Chatterer can arrange to be in front of something it can tank at least one hit from, it's not a 50/50 sort of situation. It's considerably more favorable to the Chatterer than that. Consider that (Ignoring the possibility of a very short Confusion duration) a Confused Pokemon only has a 25% chance of not hitting itself at least once over two turns of Confusion.
It obviously particularly proves itself against very passive Pokemon like Chansey, as they are much more likely to be unable to just KO it if they do get a turn off, and are more likely to be frustrated by a Substitute in particular, but it's still usable against offense and offense suffers considerably more if it takes to trying to switch out to escape Confusion -and it can still be screwed over by a Substitute build anyway, such as if it would like to revenge with an -atespeeder. Oops, Mega Pinsir will just break the Substitute and then die. Was that your only Chatterer answer on your offensive team? Welp, you're very possibly screwed. Since offensive teams tend to have less bulk than stall teams, a single Nasty Plot may be all the Chatterer needs to OHKO everything on the team, so the Chatterer doesn't need to fish for good results for all that long.
In summary I am pro-ban. (Whether of banning Chatter per se or of banning inheriting from Chatot: I have no strong inclination on this point)
Did you know that apparently logging out of your account prevents Elo decay? Someone laddering for OLT said it in a video -- haven't confirmed it but that's what I've heard. Might just be an OU ladder thing.
So this isn't a wasted post, I came up with this set and I'm quite proud of it but I haven't quite gotten it to work to its full potential on a team.
Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Ice Beam
- Wish
- Heal Bell/Protect
- Thunder Wave/Protect
Audino is my guilty pressure -- I've used it on OU Trick Room teams even though its kind of shit. Still, its movepool and ability are actually really great for a defensive 'mon. Now, Kyurem might not be your first choice for a cleric, but it has all the resistances of Dragon without the Ice weakness, allowing it to sponge hits from a variety of threats (pretty much any elemental type, including anything from Kyogre inheritors). 125/90/90 is an amazing defensive statline, and even uninvested, base 130 Ice Beam should not be ignored. So why Audino? Because Regenerator + Wish kicks ass when you have 125 base HP. Regenerator also mitigates your Stealth Rock weakness. Wish and Heal Bell are great assets to a team that lacks recovery options, and Thunder Wave can cripple anything that fails to take you out. I'm weird and don't run Protect, but it can easily be slotted over Heal Bell or Thunder Wave, whichever you think is less useful.
Thoughts on what Pokemon I should throw on the team? What would have good synergy with it? Any other Cleric sets you've found?
EDIT: Other Cleric sets I thought of:
Throh (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Drain Punch
- Wish
- Heal Bell/Protect
- Thunder Wave/Protect
Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Wish
- Protect
- Calm Mind/Healing Wish/Toxic
Cresselia @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Psychic/Psyshock/Dazzling Gleam
- Wish
- Heal Bell/Protect
- Thunder Wave/Protect
Snorlax @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Double-Edge/Return
- Wish
- Heal Bell/Protect
- Thunder Wave/Protect
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Okay, so this is the calc I based my self on:
252+ SpA Hoopa Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 318-375 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO
I just assumed +2 had the same chance to OHKO and halved it, my bad. Confused tho, my calc for +2 wasn't like yours and I didn't see any difference?
+2 252+ SpA Hoopa Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 634-747 (90 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
But when giving it 30 Def IV's instead of 31, I came to the same result as your calc. Is there a reason for running 30 IV's? HP Dark?
I get why you are concerned about the fact Hoopa just needs a little bit of luck or a little bit of prior damage to break a core of 2 pokemon, but I am more concerned about stall that could become too good when you are banning everything that can break it.
Also, my Skuntank/Drapion set, while being pretty gimmicky (way more gimmicky than your Critting Hoopa), it can wall every Hoopa I can think of unless running Earth Power, which if you are making a set with that, you're prob making an equaly or even more gimmicky set.
But still, Hoopa is beast and if it would be better against other playstyles I would prob consider it broken. Btw, I would like other people to give their opinion on this (after the Chatter suspect maybe) as now we are only disscussing it with 2/3 people.
T.I.A.
formerly Ticktock
Was this a mistake? Because, Mega Charizard X is not together with Medicham.Mega Charizard X (Victini, Rayquaza)Medicham-Mega (Lucario-Mega, Scrafty)
Medicham-Mega (Lucario-Mega, Scrafty)
Hoopa-C's Special Attack in the damage calculator is mistakenly listed as 151, when it should be 150.
Also, if you're running Vest Drapion/Skuntank just to get rid of Hoopa, here's another good bet.
Beedrill-Mega (Skuntank/Drapion) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Pursuit
- Poison Jab
- Earthquake/U-Turn
There we go. A powerful Pursuit annihilates non-Protean Hoopa, and somewhat makes up for Skuntank/Drapion's mediocre power output. Yeah, there's no Regenerator, but this is much more reliable at taking out Hoopa if it can get in properly.
4 Atk Adaptability Drapion Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 320-384 (106.3 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO <<< And that's if it doesn't switch.
Here's another option for something that's perhaps more generally useful.
Chesnaught (Doublade) @ Eviolite
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball / Shadow Claw
- Leech Seed / Shadow Claw
- Synthesis
- Spikes
With the number of switches it forces, Doublade makes for a natural spiker, and it loves the disproportionate recovery it gets out of Leech Seed. However, this set's particular draw is an immunity to Shadow ball (which is a bullet move!) and the resist + titanic physical bulk to absorb Psyshocks, not to mention a natural Fighting immunity that effectively lets it dodge one of the best neutral type combinations in the game.
252+ SpA Life Orb Adaptability Hoopa Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 66-78 (20.4 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
4 Atk Doublade Gyro Ball (89 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 159-187 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Doublade Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 496-588 (164.7 - 195.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Watch out for Dark Pulse, though that really only hits, uh, Bulletproof Doublade and... Meloetta. Still watch out for it though. Also, Protean sets, but Protean is ridiculous anyways, so.
The best part about this set, IMO, is that it walls special Ghost-types without being pigeonholed into the role of special wall -- it still performs against those things that have abandoned Fire/Ground coverage to hit steels on account of type immunities, or can at least bluff them if you haven't revealed its moveset.
So I've had a lot of fun trying to make a creative but solid stall team that has the ability to check the fast majority of threats, and I'd like to share it to give people an idea of some different tools they can use in order to counter key pokemon, while also blanket checking a lot of the meta.
I've got my whole here but I'm more interested in just showing the kind of tools I'm using to check and blanket check almost everything I need to. I'm not looking for feedback or anything this is just a sort of guide I guess.
To put in a better perspective, you wanna have answers to:
Mega Gyarados - I use Azumaril.
Hoopa - I use Umbreon and Florges.
Mega Medicham - I use Azumaril, Zygarde and Florges.
Terrakion - I use Azumaril and Zygarde.
Eruption/Water Spout - I use Kingdra.
Mega Gardevoir - I use Pre Mega Aggron, but am actually extremely weak to non Chatter variants.
Mega Charizard X - I use Kingdra, Azumaril and Zygarde.
Ate users - I use Mega Aggron.
Random set up sweepers - I use Azumaril and Florges.
Bulky set up and utility mons - I use Zygarde.
and Protean - Pretty much everything on my team can check one version or another of Protean users.
If you can cover these bases you can cover the vast majority of the meta.
I hope that this helped to give people an understanding of what to try cover, and some creative and different ways of doing that.
I don't get time for many games (especially with a stall team) but hopefully these replays will give an idea of how everything works.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-290997456
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-290949524
EDIT: Kingdra inherited from Lugia in those replays.
I've got my whole here but I'm more interested in just showing the kind of tools I'm using to check and blanket check almost everything I need to. I'm not looking for feedback or anything this is just a sort of guide I guess.
Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Recover
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Metal Burst
First up I have Umbreon inheriting from Mega Sableye. Basically I've gone with this first as it is one of the better Hoopa checks, being able to take its STAB moves like nothing and OHKO with Knock Off. Some variations of Hoopa which Umbreon can't take can be handled by Florges. This Umbreon is also an exceedingly good blanket check; being a specially bulky behemoth, Umbreon is able to check a variety of Protean and Sheer Force Special attackers, while Will-O-Wisp allows it to neutralise the majority of physical attackers, and Metal Burst can instantly remove pokemon that aren't careful as a last ditch surprise effort. I also think it is essential to have at least one Magic Bounce on a stall team to reflect Hazards, Status, Taunt, etc.
As far as Viability rankings go I'd say Umbreon should definitely have more donors listed than just Volbeat.
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Recover
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Metal Burst
First up I have Umbreon inheriting from Mega Sableye. Basically I've gone with this first as it is one of the better Hoopa checks, being able to take its STAB moves like nothing and OHKO with Knock Off. Some variations of Hoopa which Umbreon can't take can be handled by Florges. This Umbreon is also an exceedingly good blanket check; being a specially bulky behemoth, Umbreon is able to check a variety of Protean and Sheer Force Special attackers, while Will-O-Wisp allows it to neutralise the majority of physical attackers, and Metal Burst can instantly remove pokemon that aren't careful as a last ditch surprise effort. I also think it is essential to have at least one Magic Bounce on a stall team to reflect Hazards, Status, Taunt, etc.
As far as Viability rankings go I'd say Umbreon should definitely have more donors listed than just Volbeat.
Kingdra @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Dragon Pulse
- Roost
- Defog
Next I figured that I needed a dedicated answer to Specs Primordial Sea+Water Spout Empoleon / Desolate Land+Eruption Heatran. I also figured that AV Goodra was mainstream and lame. Specially Defensive Kingdra imo is actually a far better check to Eruption/Water Spout than Goodra because it has so much freedom. I'm inheriting from Salamence because I needed Defog but you can literally inherit from anything and still laugh in the face of Eruption/Water Spout. I've used this freedom to grab Intimidate, allowing Kingdra to double up and become an amazing counter to Mega Charizard Xs inheriting from Victini. This combination of fully invested SpD and Intimidate also allow Kingdra to blanket check a lot of Protean pokemon and such.
Kingdra imo definitely needs to be added to the VR. It serves a very important role for Stall and has so much freedom and versatility to be hand crafted to whatever other role your team needs. Lugia is another nice donor imo.
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Dragon Pulse
- Roost
- Defog
Next I figured that I needed a dedicated answer to Specs Primordial Sea+Water Spout Empoleon / Desolate Land+Eruption Heatran. I also figured that AV Goodra was mainstream and lame. Specially Defensive Kingdra imo is actually a far better check to Eruption/Water Spout than Goodra because it has so much freedom. I'm inheriting from Salamence because I needed Defog but you can literally inherit from anything and still laugh in the face of Eruption/Water Spout. I've used this freedom to grab Intimidate, allowing Kingdra to double up and become an amazing counter to Mega Charizard Xs inheriting from Victini. This combination of fully invested SpD and Intimidate also allow Kingdra to blanket check a lot of Protean pokemon and such.
Kingdra imo definitely needs to be added to the VR. It serves a very important role for Stall and has so much freedom and versatility to be hand crafted to whatever other role your team needs. Lugia is another nice donor imo.
Aggron @ Aggronite
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Ice Punch
- Leech Seed
- Synthesis
- Iron Tail
Ok so you probably think its pretty weird inheriting from Abomasnow, and it is, but there is a reason and when I need it it's pretty cool. Basically I wanted soundproof to completely cock block the set of Chatter/Boomburst/NP/Sub that is sometimes seen on shit like Mega Garde and Mega Pidgeot (This has actually greatly paid off for me a couple times as this set can potentially 6-0 a lot of stall builds). But obviously Soundproof is pretty wasted if they don't have such a set, so I've got it on my mega so that if I don't need it I can just mega straight away. Also you won't need this when Chatter is likely banned. But anyway post mega, Aggron is there is order to deal with Ate Physical attackers, resisting all the Ates, and having filter to soften the inevitable fighting/ground coverage. Its stupidly high Physical Bulk also make it a blanket check to a lot of Physical attackers, this is one of my better Ursaring checks. Leech Seed also helps to an extent with blanket checking because it allows your allies to take shit on easier, should you be forced out. Ice Punch hits most the things you check hard, Iron Tail is honestly the least necessary/used move.
I probably wouldn't put Abomasnow as a listed donor because its pretty niche, but Mega Aggron definitely needs to be ranked.
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Ice Punch
- Leech Seed
- Synthesis
- Iron Tail
Ok so you probably think its pretty weird inheriting from Abomasnow, and it is, but there is a reason and when I need it it's pretty cool. Basically I wanted soundproof to completely cock block the set of Chatter/Boomburst/NP/Sub that is sometimes seen on shit like Mega Garde and Mega Pidgeot (This has actually greatly paid off for me a couple times as this set can potentially 6-0 a lot of stall builds). But obviously Soundproof is pretty wasted if they don't have such a set, so I've got it on my mega so that if I don't need it I can just mega straight away. Also you won't need this when Chatter is likely banned. But anyway post mega, Aggron is there is order to deal with Ate Physical attackers, resisting all the Ates, and having filter to soften the inevitable fighting/ground coverage. Its stupidly high Physical Bulk also make it a blanket check to a lot of Physical attackers, this is one of my better Ursaring checks. Leech Seed also helps to an extent with blanket checking because it allows your allies to take shit on easier, should you be forced out. Ice Punch hits most the things you check hard, Iron Tail is honestly the least necessary/used move.
I probably wouldn't put Abomasnow as a listed donor because its pretty niche, but Mega Aggron definitely needs to be ranked.
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Skill Swap
- Toxic
- Earthquake
- Recover
This is a really weird set but it has honestly been my most valuable teammate on sooo many occasions I absolutely love this thing and would encourage people to experiment with it or something similar. Idk if any of you play UU but there is a Gourgeist set that is very similar designed to counter bulky set up sweepers like Snorlax, Suicune and Reuniclus. This aims to do the same, dismantle bulky set up sweepers and similar. Basically I've noticed that Heal Bell/Aromatherapy is rather rare in this meta, due to poor synergy with things like Poison Heal, Guts, and Quick Feet, and it is also less necessary with things like Magic Guard and Magic Bounce flying around. So if you can Toxic a lot of pokemon it makes it very hard for your opponent to recover. This Zygarde set preys on bulky set up and utility mons like Cresselia, Chansey and Suicune, etc. You simply steal Magic Bounce, Magic Guard, Poison Heal, Unaware, and any other such defensive ability, proceed to Toxic, and then it becomes exceedingly hard for them set up or stay in for prolonged periods of time and do their role effectively. Note that you are stealing their abilities and can often make use of the majority of them. The reasons I'm using Zygarde are because A). It bops everything immune to Toxic with STAB Earthquake (Including Levitators because of Skill Swap, screw Skarmory) B). It is as physically bulky as Hippowdon (actually more so but not relevantly) and C). It is fast enough to out speed the things it checks, like Cresselia. Insomnia is important because however not common, Cro sets still exist and given that Zygarde is my dedicated bulky set up counter, I need to be prepared for as many bulky set up mons as possible. Also the odd Furfrou inheritor runs Rest. Insomnia also allows me to soak up Spores and such, making Zygarde a really good Breloom Terrakion counter. Skill Swap also has its uses vs offensive mons, allowing you to beat things like Mega Medicham 1v1 (My god its fun stealing Pure Power and similar abilities). Outside of all that Zygarde is just a really strong physical wall.
Use this set.
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Skill Swap
- Toxic
- Earthquake
- Recover
This is a really weird set but it has honestly been my most valuable teammate on sooo many occasions I absolutely love this thing and would encourage people to experiment with it or something similar. Idk if any of you play UU but there is a Gourgeist set that is very similar designed to counter bulky set up sweepers like Snorlax, Suicune and Reuniclus. This aims to do the same, dismantle bulky set up sweepers and similar. Basically I've noticed that Heal Bell/Aromatherapy is rather rare in this meta, due to poor synergy with things like Poison Heal, Guts, and Quick Feet, and it is also less necessary with things like Magic Guard and Magic Bounce flying around. So if you can Toxic a lot of pokemon it makes it very hard for your opponent to recover. This Zygarde set preys on bulky set up and utility mons like Cresselia, Chansey and Suicune, etc. You simply steal Magic Bounce, Magic Guard, Poison Heal, Unaware, and any other such defensive ability, proceed to Toxic, and then it becomes exceedingly hard for them set up or stay in for prolonged periods of time and do their role effectively. Note that you are stealing their abilities and can often make use of the majority of them. The reasons I'm using Zygarde are because A). It bops everything immune to Toxic with STAB Earthquake (Including Levitators because of Skill Swap, screw Skarmory) B). It is as physically bulky as Hippowdon (actually more so but not relevantly) and C). It is fast enough to out speed the things it checks, like Cresselia. Insomnia is important because however not common, Cro sets still exist and given that Zygarde is my dedicated bulky set up counter, I need to be prepared for as many bulky set up mons as possible. Also the odd Furfrou inheritor runs Rest. Insomnia also allows me to soak up Spores and such, making Zygarde a really good Breloom Terrakion counter. Skill Swap also has its uses vs offensive mons, allowing you to beat things like Mega Medicham 1v1 (My god its fun stealing Pure Power and similar abilities). Outside of all that Zygarde is just a really strong physical wall.
Use this set.
Azumarill @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Haze
- Roost
- Feather Dance
- Night Shade
Azumaril inheriting from Murkrow was the most reliable Mega Gyarados counter I could think of. Do you have any idea how hard/important it is to find a reliable Mega Gyarados counter? Mega Gyarados inheriting from Azumaril (ironically enough) can pretty much just 6-0 the majority of stall team with Belly Drum, Knock Off, Play Rough and Aqua Jet. This Azumaril set however can easily take a +6 Aqua Jet before using Haze to reset Gyarados' attack, and then just stall it out with Priority Roost and some Night Shades. But its not just Mega Gyarados, priority Haze and Feather Dance pretty much stops dead almost every physical attacker every, and a quick stop to random set up sweepers. So this ol' badass is really important as far as checking key threats as well as blanket checking goes. Night Shade just allows you to slowly ware down crap.
Another set I'd suggest people start trying.
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Haze
- Roost
- Feather Dance
- Night Shade
Azumaril inheriting from Murkrow was the most reliable Mega Gyarados counter I could think of. Do you have any idea how hard/important it is to find a reliable Mega Gyarados counter? Mega Gyarados inheriting from Azumaril (ironically enough) can pretty much just 6-0 the majority of stall team with Belly Drum, Knock Off, Play Rough and Aqua Jet. This Azumaril set however can easily take a +6 Aqua Jet before using Haze to reset Gyarados' attack, and then just stall it out with Priority Roost and some Night Shades. But its not just Mega Gyarados, priority Haze and Feather Dance pretty much stops dead almost every physical attacker every, and a quick stop to random set up sweepers. So this ol' badass is really important as far as checking key threats as well as blanket checking goes. Night Shade just allows you to slowly ware down crap.
Another set I'd suggest people start trying.
Florges @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Moonblast
- Moonlight
- Heal Bell
Lastly we have the clue. I actually made this set to try counter Protean, whether it be mixed, special or physical. And given that almost no Protean abusers run Poison and Steel moves, as well as most of the available physical moves having reasonably low base power, it actually does this surprisingly well. With the combination of Unaware, and this things surprisingly nice mixed bulk, Florges can pretty much check just about anything that the rest of the team can't. Heal Bell and Stealth give great and mandatory support, and Moonblast coming off 112 SpA actually nets a lot of surprise KOs on careless physical attackers that think they can force Florges out (I'm looking at you Mega Medi). I tried Sylveon but I've found that the extra SpD and Spe on Florges is actually rather important.
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Moonblast
- Moonlight
- Heal Bell
Lastly we have the clue. I actually made this set to try counter Protean, whether it be mixed, special or physical. And given that almost no Protean abusers run Poison and Steel moves, as well as most of the available physical moves having reasonably low base power, it actually does this surprisingly well. With the combination of Unaware, and this things surprisingly nice mixed bulk, Florges can pretty much check just about anything that the rest of the team can't. Heal Bell and Stealth give great and mandatory support, and Moonblast coming off 112 SpA actually nets a lot of surprise KOs on careless physical attackers that think they can force Florges out (I'm looking at you Mega Medi). I tried Sylveon but I've found that the extra SpD and Spe on Florges is actually rather important.
To put in a better perspective, you wanna have answers to:
Mega Gyarados - I use Azumaril.
Hoopa - I use Umbreon and Florges.
Mega Medicham - I use Azumaril, Zygarde and Florges.
Terrakion - I use Azumaril and Zygarde.
Eruption/Water Spout - I use Kingdra.
Mega Gardevoir - I use Pre Mega Aggron, but am actually extremely weak to non Chatter variants.
Mega Charizard X - I use Kingdra, Azumaril and Zygarde.
Ate users - I use Mega Aggron.
Random set up sweepers - I use Azumaril and Florges.
Bulky set up and utility mons - I use Zygarde.
and Protean - Pretty much everything on my team can check one version or another of Protean users.
If you can cover these bases you can cover the vast majority of the meta.
I hope that this helped to give people an understanding of what to try cover, and some creative and different ways of doing that.
I don't get time for many games (especially with a stall team) but hopefully these replays will give an idea of how everything works.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-290997456
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-290949524
EDIT: Kingdra inherited from Lugia in those replays.
bp scrub
rub a dub dub one scrub in a tub
I've been running this recently and it's actually pretty fun
Marowak @ Thick Club
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
- Icicle Spear
- Substitute
This thing hits super hard, but too bad the bulk/speed isnt really there. EQ is obvious stab, Sucker Punch is priority, and I opted for Icicle Spear over Stone Edge because Stone Edge has an iffy 64 accuracy. It's also nice against things like Hoopa, where they try to predict the Sucker Punch and sub, but end up getting hit by Icicle Spear.
Damage Calcs:
252+ Atk Thick Club Hustle Marowak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 246-291 (55.4 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Hustle Marowak Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 200-236 (66.2 - 78.1%) - 3 hits will rarely KO after it subs, 4 hits is guaranteed KO
252+ Atk Thick Club Hustle Marowak Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 276-325 (92.3 - 108.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Marowak @ Thick Club
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
- Icicle Spear
- Substitute
This thing hits super hard, but too bad the bulk/speed isnt really there. EQ is obvious stab, Sucker Punch is priority, and I opted for Icicle Spear over Stone Edge because Stone Edge has an iffy 64 accuracy. It's also nice against things like Hoopa, where they try to predict the Sucker Punch and sub, but end up getting hit by Icicle Spear.
Damage Calcs:
252+ Atk Thick Club Hustle Marowak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 246-291 (55.4 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Hustle Marowak Icicle Spear (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 200-236 (66.2 - 78.1%) - 3 hits will rarely KO after it subs, 4 hits is guaranteed KO
252+ Atk Thick Club Hustle Marowak Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 276-325 (92.3 - 108.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
Head Smash is still weaker than an Adaptability Close Combat, and nothing that gets Rock Head + Head Smash gets Close Combat or High Jump Kick forcing you to use the inferior Superpower.
I happened to be exactly 1400 when the suspect was announced, conveniently. I did ladder with an alt afterwards to double-check chatter's viability.
I really don't think chatter is viable in this meta. I've heard mega gardevoir, tornadus-t, and mega pidgeot mentioned as possible abusers.
Garde is always better off clicking boomburst (and has better things to inherit it from), torn-t's serene grace air slash set is both more powerful and more consistent at haxing, and pidge is decent, but mediocre as megas go and hurricane is arguably better anyway. Even if it were good on any of these mons, none are really top-tier threats.
The chance of switching in and hitting yourself in confusion seems annoying in theory, but don't forget this is a format where serene grace, hustle, prankster confuse ray/twave, sleep powder, etc. are all legal on every mon and reasonably common.
You are going to get haxed out on occasion, and the presence or absence of chatter in the format does not change that.
Admittedly, chatter's more uncompetitive than those, but not dramatically so-for one thing, you can only run one chatter pokemon per team, whereas you absolutely can have 5 serene grace mons on the same team.
I'm happy every time I see an opponent go for chatter, because I know that means they're limited to chatot's terrible abilities and mediocre movepool.
Sure the chatter mon might get a couple turns to do damage that it wouldn't otherwise get, but every mon inheriting from chatot is noticeably limiting its own power to actually do anything with those turns.
Finally, the increased power and versatility of every other mon makes chatter really easy to check. Espeed is everywhere, and chatter users are generally frail.
The ever-common flash fire steel types hardwall chatot's coverage, and chatter does barely any damage to any relevant stallmon. Regenerator and unaware are both good.
You might lose a few mons to hax, but no more than you would lose to any of the insanely powerful offensive threats in the format.
I haven't seen any replays where chatter was good in inheritance.
I was tempted at first to advocate banning it on the gut reaction that it's uncompetitive and unfun in every meta, but it's really much less of a problem here than elsewhere.
The meta doesn't lose much by banning chatter, as it is not very good and almost nobody uses it. But that is also why we shouldn't ban it.
Don't Ban
http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-inheritance-291708940 Can't post screenshots but this replay can prove I've got reqs.
I've never faced a chatter user while laddering, and I think it happened for a good reason. In my opinion,chatter abuse isn't an effective strategy,like gardite says.All good chatter abusers are better doing other things,especially mega altaria (maybe he deserves a suspect,not chatter).
I fully agree with Gardite's post,and I vote Don't ban.
I've never faced a chatter user while laddering, and I think it happened for a good reason. In my opinion,chatter abuse isn't an effective strategy,like gardite says.All good chatter abusers are better doing other things,especially mega altaria (maybe he deserves a suspect,not chatter).
I fully agree with Gardite's post,and I vote Don't ban.
Do you have a replay? That battle doesn't exist.
canno
formerly The Reptile
There are a couple of options for Regenvest Hippo (There are a couple that get EQ), although none of them give the perfect moveset sadly.
- Ho-oh was the first one I set my eyes one due to its access to EQ and Sacred Fire, giving Regenvest Hippo the best chance out of all of the regenvest options to burn. However, as is the issue with almost all of these, there really isn't much else that's amazing, although you do have some odd coverage moves if you want to hit specific targets. (Brave Bird, Iron Head, Zen Headbutt) and you get utility options that aren't that great (Flame Charge to outspeed other Hippo I guess, Facade incase you get Burned, and probably the best out of all of these is Bulldoze for Speed Control, which I think is actually an OK option for the last slot in this case)
- Tangrowth was next in line because it has Knock Off, but then you run into the same problem that Ho-oh does, although Tangrowth has it a bit better. You can use Rock Slide, Poison Jab, and Power Whip / Seed Bomb for coverage, and you have some neat support options like Infestation, Body Slam, and Bulldoze again. Keep in mind that this is the only Regen option that doesn't have a way to burn things
- Slowking has Dragon Tail, which is the prime reason to use it as a doner over Slowbro here. You also get Foul Play, which is nice for the strong physical attackers that might want to switch into you, and Scald. Even though Scald comes out of Hippo's much weaker SpAtk, it still has a nasty 30% chance to burn so its pretty nice
- Corsola doesn't add that much outside of great coverage (Icicle Crash, Stone Edge, ect), but if you want to be offensive then there you go.
I like that Adaptability set a lot, much more offensive and gets rid of Hoopa right away. I'm probably gonna stick with Regen as I do need it for other things as well, but I really like it. Also while that Doublade set is good, I don't like it for one reason: Synthesis. Only 8 PP is too low for me to wanna use it.
OMG, that stall team looks so cool! It literally consists more than half out of sets created by yourself and they are very well thought out imo. Although I can see your team struggle against some Special Attackers. For example: If Gengar is running Focus Blast as coverage (Althought I never saw one with it, it isn't bad coverage) it litteraly plows through your whole team as it can 2HKO both Umbreon and Florges. You also mentioned you can wall Hoopa with the combination of Florges and Umbreon but while Umbreon can take its stabs, Florges cannot, not even without Adaptability:So I've had a lot of fun trying to make a creative but solid stall team that has the ability to check the fast majority of threats, and I'd like to share it to give people an idea of some different tools they can use in order to counter key pokemon, while also blanket checking a lot of the meta.
I've got my whole here but I'm more interested in just showing the kind of tools I'm using to check and blanket check almost everything I need to. I'm not looking for feedback or anything this is just a sort of guide I guess.
Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Recover
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Metal Burst
First up I have Umbreon inheriting from Mega Sableye. Basically I've gone with this first as it is one of the better Hoopa checks, being able to take its STAB moves like nothing and OHKO with Knock Off. Some variations of Hoopa which Umbreon can't take can be handled by Florges. This Umbreon is also an exceedingly good blanket check; being a specially bulky behemoth, Umbreon is able to check a variety of Protean and Sheer Force Special attackers, while Will-O-Wisp allows it to neutralise the majority of physical attackers, and Metal Burst can instantly remove pokemon that aren't careful as a last ditch surprise effort. I also think it is essential to have at least one Magic Bounce on a stall team to reflect Hazards, Status, Taunt, etc.
As far as Viability rankings go I'd say Umbreon should definitely have more donors listed than just Volbeat.
Kingdra @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Dragon Pulse
- Roost
- Defog
Next I figured that I needed a dedicated answer to Specs Primordial Sea+Water Spout Empoleon / Desolate Land+Eruption Heatran. I also figured that AV Goodra was mainstream and lame. Specially Defensive Kingdra imo is actually a far better check to Eruption/Water Spout than Goodra because it has so much freedom. I'm inheriting from Salamence because I needed Defog but you can literally inherit from anything and still laugh in the face of Eruption/Water Spout. I've used this freedom to grab Intimidate, allowing Kingdra to double up and become an amazing counter to Mega Charizard Xs inheriting from Victini. This combination of fully invested SpD and Intimidate also allow Kingdra to blanket check a lot of Protean pokemon and such.
Kingdra imo definitely needs to be added to the VR. It serves a very important role for Stall and has so much freedom and versatility to be hand crafted to whatever other role your team needs. Lugia is another nice donor imo.
Aggron @ Aggronite
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Ice Punch
- Leech Seed
- Synthesis
- Iron Tail
Ok so you probably think its pretty weird inheriting from Abomasnow, and it is, but there is a reason and when I need it it's pretty cool. Basically I wanted soundproof to completely cock block the set of Chatter/Boomburst/NP/Sub that is sometimes seen on shit like Mega Garde and Mega Pidgeot (This has actually greatly paid off for me a couple times as this set can potentially 6-0 a lot of stall builds). But obviously Soundproof is pretty wasted if they don't have such a set, so I've got it on my mega so that if I don't need it I can just mega straight away. Also you won't need this when Chatter is likely banned. But anyway post mega, Aggron is there is order to deal with Ate Physical attackers, resisting all the Ates, and having filter to soften the inevitable fighting/ground coverage. Its stupidly high Physical Bulk also make it a blanket check to a lot of Physical attackers, this is one of my better Ursaring checks. Leech Seed also helps to an extent with blanket checking because it allows your allies to take shit on easier, should you be forced out. Ice Punch hits most the things you check hard, Iron Tail is honestly the least necessary/used move.
I probably wouldn't put Abomasnow as a listed donor because its pretty niche, but Mega Aggron definitely needs to be ranked.
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Skill Swap
- Toxic
- Earthquake
- Recover
This is a really weird set but it has honestly been my most valuable teammate on sooo many occasions I absolutely love this thing and would encourage people to experiment with it or something similar. Idk if any of you play UU but there is a Gourgeist set that is very similar designed to counter bulky set up sweepers like Snorlax, Suicune and Reuniclus. This aims to do the same, dismantle bulky set up sweepers and similar. Basically I've noticed that Heal Bell/Aromatherapy is rather rare in this meta, due to poor synergy with things like Poison Heal, Guts, and Quick Feet, and it is also less necessary with things like Magic Guard and Magic Bounce flying around. So if you can Toxic a lot of pokemon it makes it very hard for your opponent to recover. This Zygarde set preys on bulky set up and utility mons like Cresselia, Chansey and Suicune, etc. You simply steal Magic Bounce, Magic Guard, Poison Heal, Unaware, and any other such defensive ability, proceed to Toxic, and then it becomes exceedingly hard for them set up or stay in for prolonged periods of time and do their role effectively. Note that you are stealing their abilities and can often make use of the majority of them. The reasons I'm using Zygarde are because A). It bops everything immune to Toxic with STAB Earthquake (Including Levitators because of Skill Swap, screw Skarmory) B). It is as physically bulky as Hippowdon (actually more so but not relevantly) and C). It is fast enough to out speed the things it checks, like Cresselia. Insomnia is important because however not common, Cro sets still exist and given that Zygarde is my dedicated bulky set up counter, I need to be prepared for as many bulky set up mons as possible. Also the odd Furfrou inheritor runs Rest. Insomnia also allows me to soak up Spores and such, making Zygarde a really good Breloom Terrakion counter. Skill Swap also has its uses vs offensive mons, allowing you to beat things like Mega Medicham 1v1 (My god its fun stealing Pure Power and similar abilities). Outside of all that Zygarde is just a really strong physical wall.
Use this set.
Azumarill @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Haze
- Roost
- Feather Dance
- Night Shade
Azumaril inheriting from Murkrow was the most reliable Mega Gyarados counter I could think of. Do you have any idea how hard/important it is to find a reliable Mega Gyarados counter? Mega Gyarados inheriting from Azumaril (ironically enough) can pretty much just 6-0 the majority of stall team with Belly Drum, Knock Off, Play Rough and Aqua Jet. This Azumaril set however can easily take a +6 Aqua Jet before using Haze to reset Gyarados' attack, and then just stall it out with Priority Roost and some Night Shades. But its not just Mega Gyarados, priority Haze and Feather Dance pretty much stops dead almost every physical attacker every, and a quick stop to random set up sweepers. So this ol' badass is really important as far as checking key threats as well as blanket checking goes. Night Shade just allows you to slowly ware down crap.
Another set I'd suggest people start trying.
Florges @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Moonblast
- Moonlight
- Heal Bell
Lastly we have the clue. I actually made this set to try counter Protean, whether it be mixed, special or physical. And given that almost no Protean abusers run Poison and Steel moves, as well as most of the available physical moves having reasonably low base power, it actually does this surprisingly well. With the combination of Unaware, and this things surprisingly nice mixed bulk, Florges can pretty much check just about anything that the rest of the team can't. Heal Bell and Stealth give great and mandatory support, and Moonblast coming off 112 SpA actually nets a lot of surprise KOs on careless physical attackers that think they can force Florges out (I'm looking at you Mega Medi). I tried Sylveon but I've found that the extra SpD and Spe on Florges is actually rather important.
To put in a better perspective, you wanna have answers to:
Mega Gyarados - I use Azumaril.
Hoopa - I use Umbreon and Florges.
Mega Medicham - I use Azumaril, Zygarde and Florges.
Terrakion - I use Azumaril and Zygarde.
Eruption/Water Spout - I use Kingdra.
Mega Gardevoir - I use Pre Mega Aggron, but am actually extremely weak to non Chatter variants.
Mega Charizard X - I use Kingdra, Azumaril and Zygarde.
Ate users - I use Mega Aggron.
Random set up sweepers - I use Azumaril and Florges.
Bulky set up and utility mons - I use Zygarde.
and Protean - Pretty much everything on my team can check one version or another of Protean users.
If you can cover these bases you can cover the vast majority of the meta.
I hope that this helped to give people an understanding of what to try cover, and some creative and different ways of doing that.
I don't get time for many games (especially with a stall team) but hopefully these replays will give an idea of how everything works.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-290997456
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inheritance-290949524
EDIT: Kingdra inherited from Lugia in those replays.
252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 191-226 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And if it is running Focus Blast it destroys Umbreon as well:
252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 250-296 (63.4 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also, while you can wall Protean users inheriting from Kecleon with your team, you get destroyed by the combination of Gunk Shot/Hydro Pump/Ice beam inheriting from Greninja. This is pretty much standard on them, but I've seen way more inheriting from Kecleon so it's not that big of a problem.
I hope you can do something with my advice, because I really want to see your stallteam getting even better and even more creative. ;)
Its also worthy of note that corsola gets suckerpunch to help pick off some things, Hoopa and gengar who would normaly be able to deal signifigant damage
0 Atk Hippowdon Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hoopa: 384-452 (105.4 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Hippowdon Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 192-228 (74.1 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I've literally never ran through eight PP of recovery (in any scenario) outside of a serious stall battle, and Doublade is neither meant for stall nor as a weapon against stall. It troubles offense, as usual, while countering an otherwise threatening balance breaker.
I was just a bit too late to make these points myself; apart from seconding them, one minor suggestion that I might make for the stall team is to replace Kingdra's Dragon Pulse with Dragon Tail. It's standard on Regenvest Goodra to capitalize on the inevitable switches and generate entry hazard damage. Additionally, Kingdra cannot actually threaten Desolate Tran, as Dragon Pulse deals pitiful damage, so it would be useful to have a way to force it out. Lastly, Dragon Tail makes it harder to switch in CB Adaptability Tyranitar, which OHKOs your Kingdra as it switches out.
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tyranitar Pursuit (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 306-362 (86.4 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO.
Rock is less widely resisted than Fighting, with nothing immune to it and only three things resisting it (vs five types resisting Fighting and Ghost being immune to it), making it considerably harder to switch into. Adaptability Close Combat is 120x2=240 BP vs Head Smash is 150x1.5=225 BP, which is a ~7% damage loss ie well below damage variance. Any gain that's less than damage variance is basically an ignorable gain, unless you're talking the very specific edge case of attacking a wall that's trying to PP stall you and has a chance of being 2HKOed by the marginally stronger move but not the weaker move.
A better argument is that Head Smash has 80% Accuracy, where Adaptability Close Combat doesn't have to worry about missing.
I personally prefer Head Smash as Psychic walls (eg Cresselia), Flying walls, and Fairy walls are often able to effortlessly ignore Close Combat. Walls designed to deal with the Rock typing are actually fairly unusual, and the most common approach is to slap a Steel type on the team, which either won't work at all against Terrakion or will still laugh at Adaptability Close Combat. (eg Doublade/Aegislash walls)
Superpower is also less flawed than it seems when against most offensive teams you'll OHKO and then switch anyway while against stall teams Unaware is common and Unaware ignores the enemy's negative stat modifications too: the second Superpower will hit just as hard as the first against Unaware.
Mew is literally the only thing that can donate Hoopa's core set with Earth Power, which... Synchronize Hoopa is dumb, yeah.
It's less that Hoopa can break a core of two Pokemon and more that it can break a core that was designed to beat it, and the little bit of chipping damage Chansey needs to have taken for Hoopa to be basically guaranteed the win if it doesn't horribly botch predictions, just running Life Orb and not going for crits, is not some acceptable range of "well, the stall player needs to play well", it's literally if Chansey has taken one hit of chipping damage from things it can normally ignore for several turns, welp, the core is in major trouble suddenly.
The core designed to take Hoopa.
Hoopa's ability to break things on both the Physical and Special end is excellent and if that's all that was going on, I would go "awesome, Hoopa is awesome"... but having a core designed to wall/beat it so readily destroyed is just... ugh. That's bordering into "Hoopa invalidates stall" rather than "Hoopa is a good stallbreaker", given it also destroys various Unaware walls with the Adaptability set (And plenty even without invoking Adaptability), regardless of whether they're Physically Defensive or Specially Defensive or what their typing is, and non-Unaware walls are terrified of Nasty Plot sweeps.
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I'm really liking Lucario-Mega Lopunny as an offense-destroying attacker that isn't half-bad against stall. In particular, if it can switch in on a Knock Off it'll absorb the damage just fine and hit +1 automatically, which is just great.
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I usually run flash fire doublade, and as Akumoey said, I never got through 8 pp of morning sun, in any situation.
Also, sweet team, I really like it.
Also, sweet team, I really like it.
Alright you've convinced me. Inheriting from Aggron would be best, as it has a better movepool than Tyrantrum and Relicanth. Would Life Orb or Choice Band be better? I'd lean towards Life Orb as that still lets you switch moves.
A set which murders stall:
Garchomp @ Lum Berry
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
Swords Dance
Dragon Claw
Earthquake
Taunt
Inherits from Haxorus. Swords Dance gives you insane power. Dragon Claw and Earthquake get STAB. Taunt lets you shut down walls. Mold Breaker is the key to this set; it lets you bypass Unaware Suicune (Scald can only 3HKO), while a +2 Earthquake 2HKOes and lets you Taunt Magic Bounce mons.
A set which murders stall:
Garchomp @ Lum Berry
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
Swords Dance
Dragon Claw
Earthquake
Taunt
Inherits from Haxorus. Swords Dance gives you insane power. Dragon Claw and Earthquake get STAB. Taunt lets you shut down walls. Mold Breaker is the key to this set; it lets you bypass Unaware Suicune (Scald can only 3HKO), while a +2 Earthquake 2HKOes and lets you Taunt Magic Bounce mons.