CAP 21 CAP 21 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion

[DetroitLolcat]

Now that we have CAP 21's stat spread, we're back to abilities! Our Ability Leader, DetroitLolcat, will again be leading this discussion to determine a slate of options for this Pokemon's secondary ability.

Some general rules for this discussion:

• Custom abilities are banned. No exceptions. Posts suggesting custom abilities will be deleted.
• There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion. Posts suggesting banned abilities will be deleted.
• Flavor abilities do not have any place in this thread. Do not bring up flavor reasoning. Posts that rely on flavor reasoning will be deleted.

The following abilities are banned from this discussion:

Air Lock
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Color Change
Dark Aura
Defeatist
Fairy Aura
Forecast
Fur Coat
Huge Power
Illusion
Imposter
Moody
Multitype
Parental Bond
Protean
Pure Power
Shadow Tag
Slow Start
Stance Change
Teravolt
Truant
Turboblaze
Victory Star
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode

Arena Trap
Drizzle
Drought
Magic Bounce
Magic Guard
Prankster
Sand Stream
Snow Warning
Speed Boost

Big Pecks
Friend Guard
Grass Pelt
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Run Away
Symbiosis
Telepathy​

Be careful not to discuss any of these abilities. If you want to learn why they're banned from discussion, you can check out the Policy Review threads that created this list here and here.

This thread will be open for discussion once trc has posted his/her opening remarks and questions.

--------------------
CAP21 so far:

Typing: Rock/Poison
Ability:
Base - Regenerator / ?????
Mega - Magic Guard
Stats:
106/105/65/75/85/104 > 106/135/75/85/125/114
Leadership Team:

jas61292 - Topic Leader
imanalt - Typing Leader
DetroitLolcat - Abilities Leader
sparktrain - Stats Leader
HeaLnDeaL (aka loser) - Movepool Leader

Concept:

Name: Typing Underdog

General Description: A Pokémon which utilizes an undervalued typing to its full potential, by playing towards both its strengths and weaknesses.

Justification: Each typing possesses a unique set of characteristics, causing all of them to perform very differently in various aspects of battle. However, not every typing has been granted the opportunity to display this potential, being forced into suboptimal roles by virtue of stats, ability and movepool, and therefore often being labelled as “bad”.
This concept aims to do a detailed analysis on the primary function of such a typing along with its potentially unexplored capabilities, by creating a Pokémon that that emphasizes the typing’s most prominent traits and utilizes them effectively.
This approach will not only allow us to widen our understanding on the unique niche and preferred playstyle of the typing, but will also give us additional insight on the mechanics that lead to success and failure of the typing when comparing CAP to the wielders in the lower tiers.

Questions to be answered:

• What are the most important traits the Pokémon gains from the chosen typing, both positive and negative?
• Is quality or quantity of weaknesses/resistances/immunities more relevant to the chosen typing? What does this mean for the way it is played?
• How significant is the niche provided by the typing in OU? Are there any striking flaws in the typing that can’t be played around and prevent the Pokémon from performing reliably?
• How reliant is the typing on stats, ability and movepool in order to succeed in OU?
• Are the unique characteristics granted by the typing enough to set the Pokemon apart, or does it face strong competition for its role from Pokémon of other types?
• Is there any distinct playstyle that suits the chosen typing the best? Or can the same typing be utilized in an entirely different approach to similar success?
• How important is a type’s versatility for its overall success?
• Is a single Pokémon capable of portraying most relevant aspects of the entire type?

 

[DetroitLolcat]

All right, we've got ourselves a stat spread. Time for one more Ability (or maybe not!) before we jump into the movepool!

I'm going to start off bluntly: CAP21's Secondary Ability is arguably not going to see a ton of usage on the Pokemon. CAP21 will arguably spend most of its time in the Mega forme, and Regenerator is going to be a tough Ability to compete with. However, Pokemon have two Abilities, and we're still going to leave no stone unturned in finding the perfect Ability to complement what we have now.

The first and foremost question to ask is if we need a Secondary Ability at all. Regenerator and Magic Guard seem to complement what our Pokemon is trying to do better than anything suggested so far. Head Smash, what will likely be CAP21's bread and butter, is a tremendous move whose drawbacks are covered by both Primary and Mega Ability. As a result, I'm skeptical if CAP21 actually needs a Secondary Ability when it already has two great Abilities in the first place. The only aspect of CAP21 that's changed since our last foray into Abilities is our stat spread. Is there an Ability that our stat spread can take advantage of?

During Primary and Mega Ability Discussions, some of the most popular Abilities that didn't win were Adaptability and Rattled. I'd like to see if the community wants to give those Abilities a second chance. They've been vetted to be pro-concept and reasonably popular, although not as popular as the Abilities already on the Pokemon.

Of course, feel free to suggest Abilities that haven't been discussed in previous discussions. I don't want to restrict ideas beyond the banlists we have for Secondary Ability. And before you start suggesting Abilities, make sure they will actually see use on the Pokemon. I don't want to entertain discussion about ultra-niche Abilities that will never see use over Regenerator. Make sure to justify your Ability as a viable choice over Regnerator. Here are some questions to get the ball rolling.

1. Why does CAP21 need a Secondary Ability? Does our stat spread lend itself to a particularly useful Secondary Ability?

2. Do Abilities suggested in previous discussions, such as Adaptability and Rattled, still have merit? Should they be given another chance even though other Abilities have been voted over them?

3. Suggest your own Secondary Ability if you believe another Ability could really benefit our CAP!

 

[NumberCruncher]

1. Why does CAP21 need a Secondary Ability? Does our stat spread lend itself to a particularly useful Secondary Ability?

Actually, our Mega-ness does give us incentive to have a secondary ability. So much of our discussion since the beginning seems to be that we wanted the Mega to be more like Latias, Slobro, and Scizor, where either form is potentially viable, and not like Beedrill or Garchomp where only one form is viable. Regenerator is a very good ability, but it only resolves on a Mega if it switches in and out in base form constantly, which can make it hard to get full value off it. Mega-Slobro, for example, tends to stay in base form for nearly the entire match, up until the point it needs the extra bulk or fails to gain anything from switching anymore. Given that we want to use Head Smash as our Rock move on the Mega, which hurts substantially without Magic Guard, this could be problematic. It really boils down to the Mega Pinsir problem. You could choose not to Mega Evolve to keep the Mold Breaker/Moxie, but your Return is going to suffer for it until you Mega Evolve. We could have Regenerator just be the generically best ability, with a secondary ability that's only good if you plan on Mega-evolving immediately upon coming in.

2. Do Abilities suggested in previous discussions, such as Adaptability and Rattled, still have merit? Should they be given another chance even though other Abilities have been voted over them?

If we're using this strategy, Rattled could have some niche use as a secondary ability. If you switch into a Knock Off or U-Turn, you get a one-time buff, and then ditch the ability, which is what we're looking for if we want an ability that's only worth considering for mega-evolution.

3. Suggest your own Secondary Ability if you believe another Ability could really benefit our CAP!

If we're looking at secondary abilities that give CAP a one-time advantage, Intimidate isn't an awful option. You switch in once, and get the free mega on Talon after taking a weakened shot. It also makes you better against mons that would hit you neutrally, like Breloom.

 

[LightningLord2]

I'm in favor of Mega-friendly abilities, such as Rattled, Intimidate, Frisk and Weak Armor. It's a better ability to choose for Mega sets since most Megas want to Mega Evolve first chance they get to make full use of the boosted stats. Regenerator would probably be used on sets that run a different item (most likely Assault Vest).

 

[Blackdrakon30]

1. Why does CAP21 need a Secondary Ability? Does our stat spread lend itself to a particularly useful Secondary Ability?
I definitely think CAP21 should have a secondary ability. The more flexibility in it's design the better, as we want both the Mega and the Base form very viable. The STAT spreads I feel lend us to two possibly useful secondary abilities: Something that allows it to grabs a temporary boost, like Defiant or Rattled, because those help it sweep later, or maybe an ability as a harder hitting option to the the comparison of the more defensive regenerator.
2. Do Abilities suggested in previous discussions, such as Adaptability and Rattled, still have merit? Should they be given another chance even though other Abilities have been voted over them?
Rattled definitely has merit. Like said before, grab a knock-off since with the megastone you should have no worries bout losing the item as a side affect. Grab the speed, wreck everything. Adaptability is not necessary either way, regenerate is a better option. It needs to be an ability equally viable to regenerator.
3. Suggest your own Secondary Ability if you believe another Ability could really benefit our CAP!
Okay, so twice now I have said it should be as viable as regenerator, which is a defensive ability for recovery. This one should be more offensive, preferably centered around Stat boosting or boosting offensive capabilities in a different way. Several options that I see that may work well as secondary abilities:
Offensive:
Defiant, Rattled, Clear Body, Contrary, Sand Force, Intimidate, Moxie, Mold Breaker, Rock Head, or Sheer Force
Defensive:
Early Bird (Stealth rock lead or rest?), Lightning Rod (Maybe? Immunity to paralysis, depends on art?) or Solid Rock (Stealth rock lead?)

 

[Ahhhhhh......Clefable.]

1. Why does CAP21 need a Secondary Ability? Does our stat spread lend itself to a particularly useful Secondary Ability?

Actually, our Mega-ness does give us incentive to have a secondary ability. So much of our discussion since the beginning seems to be that we wanted the Mega to be more like Latias, Slobro, and Scizor, where either form is potentially viable, and not like Beedrill or Garchomp where only one form is viable.

This is an excellent point, and on that note, I still think CompoundEyes is an adequate alternative to Regenerator. It's still nowhere near as powerful an ability as Magic Guard, but it does give the base CAP the ability to abuse Stone Edge and Gunk Shot much more comfortably, should one want to postpone MegaEvolving or use another Mega.

If we're developing a Pokemon that should be valid in both its base form and Mega form, we should seriously consider giving CAP a secondary ability that promotes offense, since Regenerator is a defensive ability. CompoundEyes lets CAP use high-power STAB attacks, for both types, reliably. It's a small niche compared to Regenerator and its Mega, but it would still lend itself to a role that otherwise CAP base form wouldn't be able to play.

EDIT: And because I think Adaptability will be brought up again, I don't think it's the route to go. Adaptability is powerful, and I think it could potentially overshadow Magic Guard. We don't want that. So CompoundEyes is the way to go, in my opinion.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

This is an excellent point, and on that note, I still think CompoundEyes is an adequate alternative to Regenerator. It's still nowhere near as powerful an ability as Magic Guard, but it does give the base CAP the ability to abuse Stone Edge and Gunk Shot much more comfortably, should one want to postpone MegaEvolving or use another Mega.

If we're developing a Pokemon that should be valid in both its base form and Mega form, we should seriously consider giving CAP a secondary ability that promotes offense, since Regenerator is a defensive ability. CompoundEyes lets CAP use high-power STAB attacks, for both types, reliably. It's a small niche compared to Regenerator and its Mega, but it would still lend itself to a role that otherwise CAP base form wouldn't be able to play.

EDIT: And because I think Adaptability will be brought up again, I don't think it's the route to go. Adaptability is powerful, and I think it could potentially overshadow Magic Guard. We don't want that. So CompoundEyes is the way to go, in my opinion.

Compound eyes gunk shot. I could definetly see that working, and it would be beautiful. Not to mention it would not end up overshadowing Regenerator or Magic Guard. I think defiant, rattled, and sheer force from my earlier ideas are my other favorites, but compound eyes would be an amazing ability without being overwhelming.

 

[KhosroTheGreat]

1. Why does CAP21 need a Secondary Ability? Does our stat spread lend itself to a particularly useful Secondary Ability?
"It probably wouldn't even be OU without a Mega Evolution and would certainly not be without Regenerator" - these words, written by Korski in his winning stat submission, go to show how mediocre (or as Korski put it, basic) our base forme's stat spread is. Regenerator is such a wonderful ability that it pretty much forces CAP21 to have an ability as good as or better than Regenerator if it is to see any usage whatsoever. The high utility of Regen allows CAP21 to be justified as a Mega's base forme, even with such a 'basic' stat spread, and any Secondary Ability really needs to be just as useful for CAP21 to have a justifiable base forme.

The mediocrity of the base forme's stat spread also gives us another thought to think about: Since the Mega's stat boost is so incredibly important to CAP21, boosting defences, offences and speed (In particular, the 65 Defence is boosted up to 75, the Attack gets a significant boost and we move up some very crowded speed tiers), we should question how much gametime the base forme is going to see. Assuming our Rock-type STAB is Head Smash as well, this will really cripple the base forme, almost preventing it from using one of its STABs due to fear of the recoil. This is problematic for our Primary Ability, Regenerator, since it can only be activates whilst switching out, and so requires (barring double switches) the base forme to see use for it to be effective (i.e. it's only used as many times as we switch out before Mega Evolution, which probably won't be that much considering what our base forme stat spread is). Therefore, a useful Secondary Ability that can provide a more instantaneous boost to our CAP's viability - one that does not clash with the likely event of an early Evolution, would probably be a good idea.

2. Do Abilities suggested in previous discussions, such as Adaptability and Rattled, still have merit? Should they be given another chance even though other Abilities have been voted over them?
They should, since they largely still have the same merits they had before. The only thing I would add here is that we should take caution not to give an ability so powerful or useful that it outperforms the Mega forme, although Korski's stat spreads actually almost force us to Mega Evolve. However, Adaptability, especially with such high-power STAB combinations, is an ability which threatens to do this, and so we should be cautious in considering it.

Rattled is an interesting option, but is somewhat situational and also has limited usefulness with our somewhat poor base 105 attack while in base forme. People have contrasting opinions on whether we should look for a late Evolution or an early one, and I think Rattled is a) not useful enough to prevent us Mega Evolving early or b) forces us to Mega Evolve late if we want to use it to sweep (after our checks are gone). I believe that we should be realistic and look for an early Mega Evolution, and thus I don't think Rattled is useful enough to be a good Secondary Ability, although it certainly has some significant if rather situational use.

3. Suggest your own Secondary Ability if you believe another Ability could really benefit our CAP!
With a somewhat disappointing 65 defence, we only just avoid getting 2KO'd by CB Talon, and an ability that helps us patch up this rather frail physical defence would be greatly appreciated. Intimidate has been suggested, and is certainly useful (see: Mega Manectric, which also Mega Evolves early).

The final alternative is an ability which is chosen to give us a niche that is separate from similar Pokemon, as we must make sure that CAP21 is not made redundant by the many great Megas already in OU, such as Mega Sableye (different sort of Pokemon really but yeah). When I say niche, this doesn't mean something which necessarily has to be rare or strange, just something which lets it offer something different over the other very viable Megas in OU - the Mega Slot is a very valuable commodity, and we should give our users an incentive to give it to CAP21.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I'm going to be editing and deleting posts that mention Sand Stream. Remember Sand Stream is a banned Ability for this stage!

Keep discussing, I'll share additional thoughts later tonight.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

1. Why does CAP21 need a Secondary Ability? Does our stat spread lend itself to a particularly useful Secondary Ability?
"It probably wouldn't even be OU without a Mega Evolution and would certainly not be without Regenerator" - these words, written by Korski in his winning stat submission, go to show how mediocre (or as Korski put it, basic) our base forme's stat spread is. Regenerator is such a wonderful ability that it pretty much forces CAP21 to have an ability as good as or better than Regenerator if it is to see any usage whatsoever. The high utility of Regen allows CAP21 to be justified as a Mega's base forme, even with such a 'basic' stat spread, and any Secondary Ability really needs to be just as useful for CAP21 to have a justifiable base forme.

The mediocrity of the base forme's stat spread also gives us another thought to think about: Since the Mega's stat boost is so incredibly important to CAP21, boosting defences, offences and speed (In particular, the 65 Defence is boosted up to 75, the Attack gets a significant boost and we move up some very crowded speed tiers), we should question how much gametime the base forme is going to see. Assuming our Rock-type STAB is Head Smash as well, this will really cripple the base forme, almost preventing it from using one of its STABs due to fear of the recoil. This is problematic for our Primary Ability, Regenerator, since it can only be activates whilst switching out, and so requires (barring double switches) the base forme to see use for it to be effective (i.e. it's only used as many times as we switch out before Mega Evolution, which probably won't be that much considering what our base forme stat spread is). Therefore, a useful Secondary Ability that can provide a more instantaneous boost to our CAP's viability - one that does not clash with the likely event of an early Evolution, would probably be a good idea.

2. Do Abilities suggested in previous discussions, such as Adaptability and Rattled, still have merit? Should they be given another chance even though other Abilities have been voted over them?
They should, since they largely still have the same merits they had before. The only thing I would add here is that we should take caution not to give an ability so powerful or useful that it outperforms the Mega forme, although Korski's stat spreads actually almost force us to Mega Evolve. However, Adaptability, especially with such high-power STAB combinations, is an ability which threatens to do this, and so we should be cautious in considering it.

Rattled is an interesting option, but is somewhat situational and also has limited usefulness with our somewhat poor base 105 attack while in base forme. People have contrasting opinions on whether we should look for a late Evolution or an early one, and I think Rattled is a) not useful enough to prevent us Mega Evolving early or b) forces us to Mega Evolve late if we want to use it to sweep (after our checks are gone). I believe that we should be realistic and look for an early Mega Evolution, and thus I don't think Rattled is useful enough to be a good Secondary Ability, although it certainly has some significant if rather situational use.

3. Suggest your own Secondary Ability if you believe another Ability could really benefit our CAP!
With a somewhat disappointing 65 defence, we only just avoid getting 2KO'd by CB Talon, and an ability that helps us patch up this rather frail physical defence would be greatly appreciated. Intimidate has been suggested, and is certainly useful (see: Mega Manectric, which also Mega Evolves early).

The final alternative is an ability which is chosen to give us a niche that is separate from similar Pokemon, as we must make sure that CAP21 is not made redundant by the many great Megas already in OU, such as Mega Sableye (different sort of Pokemon really but yeah). When I say niche, this doesn't mean something which necessarily has to be rare or strange, just something which lets it offer something different over the other very viable Megas in OU - the Mega Slot is a very valuable commodity, and we should give our users an incentive to give it to CAP21.

What about technician? Since head smash essentially cripples the base form when it does not mega evolve, use something like Rock Tomb or Poison Fang for moves around 75-90 base power. Powerful enough that they can be used, but not overpowered? Intimidate most definitely patches up the defense though, and is another defensive ability. The one thing I don't love about having two defensive abilities is our typing seems more intended for offense.

 

[FriesforNapkins]

Preemptive Apology: I'm not super experienced in this stage, but I figure I'll throw out a few things for the sake of discussion. Feel free to disregard any foul suggestions on my part.

1. Why does CAP21 need a Secondary Ability? Does our stat spread lend itself to a particularly useful Secondary Ability?
First things first, I agree with Blackdrakon30 in how this CAP should have a second ability. Even though the question it's addressing seems more like, "show why this CAP should have more than one ability", I think so long as the ability chosen isn't something anti-concept, and it mixes well with Regenerator, (i.e. both could be utilized, despite which is objectively more applicable) it makes sense to have the variety. Beyond that, as a response to the rest of the question and question 2, I figure I'll say this:

I do think CAP21's second ability should probably go hand in hand with it's stats, some exceptions. Specific examples of this being Intimidate and Rattled, with Rattled being so far the best up that alley (my opinion). The reason I say probably, and some exceptions, are because outside of some other good options that aren't stat based (Compound Eyes, others surely soon to come), the point of CAP21 is supposed to be the ways in which it's typing can be manipulated, is my understanding of it. Which is part of why I prefer Rattled, niche or not. Not only do I think people are undermining how easy getting a resisted plus one on a U-turn switch or Knock-Off is, but also, that is exactly the kind of ability that meshes great with both 21's stats AND typing.

As far as new suggestions, I mostly have just one: Oblivious. I can understand why people wouldn't be in favor of that ability, but here's why I mention it. Without quoting a bunch of people, I've seen a lot of posts that seem to be treating CAP21 as nothing but an attacker who can take attacks in smart ways. That's perfectly fine. But, and this is where I could be most wrong, considering I don't top Showdown much, I would be pretty surprised if there's a set for 21 that doesn't include one or more status moves. Whether that is, SR or Toxic or Sandstorm or something more useful than all of those that I'm doing a poor job at highlighting. My point is that, if the second ability isn't something to do directly with stats or typing, and CAP21 needs more than a base 135 Attack stat to be viable in OU, it can still be taunted. So hey.

Sorry again if I don't know what I'm talking about in the least.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

Preemptive Apology: I'm not super experienced in this stage, but I figure I'll throw out a few things for the sake of discussion. Feel free to disregard any foul suggestions on my part.

1. Why does CAP21 need a Secondary Ability? Does our stat spread lend itself to a particularly useful Secondary Ability?
First things first, I agree with Blackdrakon30 in how this CAP should have a second ability. Even though the question it's addressing seems more like, "show why this CAP should have more than one ability", I think so long as the ability chosen isn't something anti-concept, and it mixes well with Regenerator, (i.e. both could be utilized, despite which is objectively more applicable) it makes sense to have the variety. Beyond that, as a response to the rest of the question and question 2, I figure I'll say this:

I do think CAP21's second ability should probably go hand in hand with it's stats, some exceptions. Specific examples of this being Intimidate and Rattled, with Rattled being so far the best up that alley (my opinion). The reason I say probably, and some exceptions, are because outside of some other good options that aren't stat based (Compound Eyes, others surely soon to come), the point of CAP21 is supposed to be the ways in which it's typing can be manipulated, is my understanding of it. Which is part of why I prefer Rattled, niche or not. Not only do I think people are undermining how easy getting a resisted plus one on a U-turn switch or Knock-Off is, but also, that is exactly the kind of ability that meshes great with both 21's stats AND typing.

As far as new suggestions, I mostly have just one: Oblivious. I can understand why people wouldn't be in favor of that ability, but here's why I mention it. Without quoting a bunch of people, I've seen a lot of posts that seem to be treating CAP21 as nothing but an attacker who can take attacks in smart ways. That's perfectly fine. But, and this is where I could be most wrong, considering I don't top Showdown much, I would be pretty surprised if there's a set for 21 that doesn't include one or more status moves. Whether that is, SR or Toxic or Sandstorm or something more useful than all of those that I'm doing a poor job at highlighting. My point is that, if the second ability isn't something to do directly with stats or typing, and CAP21 needs more than a base 135 Attack stat to be viable in OU, it can still be taunted. So hey.

Sorry again if I don't know what I'm talking about in the least.

I think Oblivious would be pretty neat, but my only concern is:
As oblivious it would probably be a lead. How would it compete with strong physical leads like garchomp and gliscor when it has such low physical defense? I'm not sure how it would be able to be a lead too effectively, unless it was suicide or one used more conservatively.

 

[Alfalfa]

There are not many abilities that can compete with Regenerator that are not already banned. Our main premise should be to see if we can think of an ability which, while situational, would be convenient for the CAP during the turn it Mega Evolves. Rattled and Intimidate are certainly useful, and would technically be examples of situational but convenient secondary abilities to have. I would personally prefer Intimidate, because our CAP would appreciate being able to switch into Talonflame a lot easier should it want to switch in and Mega Evolve. The ability to cushion attacks from Talonflame, along with some lesser but still important threats for our CAP to check, would be a cushion worth giving up Regenerator for, but only if it seeks to Mega Evolve immediately.

 

[KhosroTheGreat]

First of all, I'd like to start by apologising to DLC for mentioning Sand Stream - I have to confess I'm guilty of being too lazy to read the full banned abilities list.
However, I had written a few lines on why I thought abilities with instantaneous impact were a good idea, citing Sand Stream as an example (and then going on to say why I didn't want Sand Stream for the secondary ability), and I feel that, apart from the mention of Sand Stream, the rest was fine, so I'm going to write about the instantaneous thingy again (excluding the bit about Sand Stream), if this is OK with DLC.

Abilities which have an instantaneous impact, such as Intimidate or Download (please note I'm not actually putting these forward, just using them to show my point), allow the base forme to have utility that justifies the mediocrity of its stat spread. As opposed to abilities such as Rattled, Oblivious or even Regenerator, which are activated by some condition being fulfilled (often forcing us to stay in the base forme for longer than the user wants to).

Incidentally, I've just realised that Intimidate and Download, despite being suggested to be able to used in conjunction with an early Mega Evolution, actually patch up problems that stop the base forme from staying in its base forme (to be specific, Initimidate patches up that poor 65 defence, while Download has a chance of boosting our mediocre 105 attack so that it can hit hard, although it still doesn't appreciate the Head Smash recoil).

People who are suggesting otherwise useful abilities, such as Technician and Compound Eyes, to help STAB moves such as Stone Edge, Poison Fang and Rock Tomb are forgetting that the Mega forme will almost certainly be running Head Smash and Gunk Shot as STABs, and hence, will probably not run these moves (unless our movepool is literally so bad they're forced to, which it isn't going to be). Therefore, their utility is entirely wasted. Obviously, Compound Eyes still helps with Gunk Shot, and will have some utility for hitting an opponent slower than base 104 speed that is KO'd by a STAB Gunk Shot from base 105 Attack (e.g. against an Mega Altaria prior to boosts), but this is somewhat situational and also you could just Mega Evolve, hope that you hit with Gunk Shot, and have the advantage of 114 speed next turn instead of waiting another turn for the speed boost (since speed only activates the turn after you Mega Evolve).

I'd also like to agree with Alfalfa's above post - any ability we choose needs to be either good enough to compete with Regen, or give CAP21 some sort of niche that seperates it from other similar Pokemon and help justify its taking up the Mega Slot.

 

[WhiteDMist]

With Regenerator for the primary ability, that means the second ability will naturally be more niche. Regenerator's purpose is to help the CAP pivot in and out to find the opportune time to Mega Evolve. It also helps with switching into attacks the CAP resists, shrugging off the damage. Of course, this doesn't account for hazards either, but for the most part the base form will be pretty healthy. But this kind of role looks more suited for balanced and bulky offensive teams; for the more offensive teams that want to make the most of the Speed of this CAP (Mega and base), a more aggressive/immediately beneficial ability might be worth a look.

Intimidate can help boost the CAP's ability to handle Talonflame and Weavile, at the cost of being easier to wear down without Regenerator. It may make the base form more desirable, but in the end does a similar thing to Regenerator (just not as well). Rattled is more situational, but is certainly an ability the base form can use. Oblivious is an interesting idea, though sheer offensive pressure can deter the opponent from spending time Taunting the CAP (Gliscor and Mew threaten the CAP, while most other Taunt users are threatened by the CAP).

I like the idea of Mold Breaker as well. Are we still planning on the utility aspect of the CAP? Even something as simple as carrying a status move or Stealth Rock would benefit from it, and take advantage of the switches the CAP forces without having to worry about Magic Bounce. Depending on the coverage move, it can ignore immunity abilities as well.

 

[Deck Knight]

The best Mega Pokemon often get a boost from their base forms before Mega-Evolving. The most common abilities for this are Intimidate and Moxie, but a few others have been Trace, Prankster, and Speed Boost. Regenerator already is one.

Of these, I think Intimidate is the most pro-concept secondary ability.

As to why, I think it comes down to viability against other Mega Pokemon. Intimidate directly helps against a number of threats that our base form is otherwise loathe to switch into. Charizard still has options against Rock/Poison, and Talonflame is much less threatening at -1. It has basically no effect on our counters because Earthquake obliterates even at -1. It makes CAP a much better utility counter, and it actually does have a drawback vs Bisharp.

In other words, it is viable, pro-concept, assists in raising CAP's viability for a Mega Slot, and has minimal impact on checks and counters. I prefer it greatly over rattled because Rattled requires taking a hit. This CAP can take a hit, but it can't take two. It is, at least, faster than most Scarfers but it hates (Oct-1825 stats) Aqua Jet (Azumarill #16) and Bullet Punch (Scizor #6, Mega Metagross #32, Mega Medicham #45), so Rattled is suspect.

 

[KhosroTheGreat]

Intimidate can help boost the CAP's ability to handle Talonflame and Weavile, at the cost of being easier to wear down without Regenerator. It may make the base form more desirable, but in the end does a similar thing to Regenerator (just not as well).

I believe that, actually, Intimidate does it better than Regenerator, and this is largely due to what I was talking about earlier about instantaneous and activated.

Regen works best on mons which can pivot effectively, either offensively (see: LO Torn-T, Ho-Oh in Ubers, Mienshao in UU) or defensively (see: AV Torn-T, base forme Slowbro, Foongus in LC). By admission of the stat maker himself: "Basic CAP is just that: pretty basic. It has middling enough strength, bulk, and speed to competently check the things it's supposed to check based on typing (Talonflame, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Charizard, Zapdos, Volcarona, etc.), but it doesn't really excel in any one area and is greatly held back in general by its poor typing and restricted access to its Rock STAB." Since CAP 21's base forme has neither the bulk nor the offensive prowess to function as either an offensive or a defensive pivot, except maybe against certain special attackers which lack the power unboosted to break through it (such as Clefable), it doesn't particularly look like an effective pivot, and so Regen is perhaps not the best fit with the stat spread that was chosen for CAP 21. We perhaps wanted Regen to find the success it enjoys on Pokemon such as Slowbro prior to Mega Evolution, or even Natural Cure on Altaria with its Earthquake immunity, we haven't really given it the tools it need to be able to use these kind of abilities effectively (e.g. no change in typing, middling bulk etc.).

In contrast, Intimidate doesn't really require anything other than switching in, so that even when Mega Evolving on the very first turn possible, which looks a very likely possibility, due to the massive dependence of CAP21 on the stat boost it acquires after Mega Evolution, along with a similarly huge dependance on Magic Guard to be able to use its Rock-type STAB, Head Smash, effectively. It also mitigates the very poor base 65 Defence we have chosen to give CAP21's base forme, allowing for greater usage of the base forme. Best of all, Intimidate increases the base forme's viability without being too powerful or (particularly) anti-concept. The only problem I would express with Intimidate is would it become more useful than Regenerator? And is this a bad thing for our CAP?

 

[jas61292]

DetroitLolcat has laid out some great questions for this discussion, so I am not really going to try and bring up any new discussion points here. Rather, I want to challenge people to defend a bit more what they have already said, specifically with regard to Intimidate.

Intimidate has gotten a lot of talk here so far, but I'd say the the majority of posts mentioning it fail to really support it with any good reasoning. And the few that do give reasoning for the most part the only things I see being brought up that are concept or threats list relevant is that it lets us more easily switch in on a Pokemon that we can typically switch in on and force out easily already. Yeah, taking less damage from Talonflame is nice, but it is hardly necessary for what we want to do. At the same time, Intimidate is just a generically good ability for any mega since it is one of the few things that can effectively give you two abilities when you mega evolve.

The goal of a secondary ability should be to compliment a primary ability. If we cannot do that, then we should avoid a secondary ability altogether. Supplanting the primary ability it is not what we want to do, and as DLC said, ultra-niche abilities are not really what we want to be looking at either.

So, what I would ask people here about Intimidate, or really any other ability that people are proposing, is how that ability serves to complement what we already have. Simply saying that an ability helps pursue the concept or helps us against the things we want to beat is not enough in and of itself because it ignores the fact that we already chose an ability for that very reason.

 

[snake]

Justified or Rattled could take advantage of a predicted Knock Off, but that sounds really niche and unnecessary.

Poison Touch would be cute, and it'd be in line with the concept.
Rock Head also fits with the concept. It doesn't protect CAP21 from residual damage like Burn or Life Orb, but it could fire off Head Smashes with a lower Attack stat. It would also make the base form a little more pro-concept, but I can see how people would think that it would be just a "discount Mega-CAP21."

It's kind of hard to find abilities that aren't ultra-niche compared to Regenerator but also don't overshadow/break the Mega forme...

 

[Blackdrakon30]

With Regenerator for the primary ability, that means the second ability will naturally be more niche. Regenerator's purpose is to help the CAP pivot in and out to find the opportune time to Mega Evolve. It also helps with switching into attacks the CAP resists, shrugging off the damage. Of course, this doesn't account for hazards either, but for the most part the base form will be pretty healthy. But this kind of role looks more suited for balanced and bulky offensive teams; for the more offensive teams that want to make the most of the Speed of this CAP (Mega and base), a more aggressive/immediately beneficial ability might be worth a look.

Intimidate can help boost the CAP's ability to handle Talonflame and Weavile, at the cost of being easier to wear down without Regenerator. It may make the base form more desirable, but in the end does a similar thing to Regenerator (just not as well). Rattled is more situational, but is certainly an ability the base form can use. Oblivious is an interesting idea, though sheer offensive pressure can deter the opponent from spending time Taunting the CAP (Gliscor and Mew threaten the CAP, while most other Taunt users are threatened by the CAP).

I like the idea of Mold Breaker as well. Are we still planning on the utility aspect of the CAP? Even something as simple as carrying a status move or Stealth Rock would benefit from it, and take advantage of the switches the CAP forces without having to worry about Magic Bounce. Depending on the coverage move, it can ignore immunity abilities as well.

Mold Breaker sounds fairly pleasant. I mean, imagine getting a 100% accurate Toxic (Due to Poison typing) and then poisoning mega sableye. Some other nice things might be hitting Rotom-W with a ground move on switches, OHKOing sturdy skarmory, but not much else. Seems like a niche to me, not particularly useful beyond those few situations.

However, I think something there is an ability that may be more valuable than a sponge, in Intimidate, which is useful but can't patch up it's defense if the opponent switches to Lando-T from the Pokemon with lowered attack. Plus Lando's Intimidate would lower CAP21's attack, lowering sweeping capabilities. Instead I propose this:

Defiant. A one point boost that can be easily nabbed from a switch in from Mega Manectric, which we wall passively with special defense to some extent, or from several Pokemon we are trying to check such as Togekiss using Defog. Intimidate feels like a major presence currently in the Meta due to Lando and less common others, and defog is extremely common due to the rarity of Rapid Spin. So perhaps we should take advantage of this. With Defiant, we can grab an easy boost to start sweeping, and make up for other stat losses we may obtain by moves, abilities, or hazards. Not to mention this seems less like a niche and widespread neutral but useful ability, that someone might actually use instead of Regenerator. Clear Body/White Smoke would also work as to prevent raw stat loss, but the lowering of stats is not of the reason for Defiant, the reason the free attack boost from Intimidate, Defog, and other moves.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I've been impressed by a few Abilities so far, such as Intimidate and Mold Breaker. The former I believe to be pro-concept because of how it helps CAP21 cope with Physical attackers that it has a hard time threatening. Taking a little less damage from Talonflame or especially Azumarill could go a long way towards threatening the Pokemon we need to threaten. Mold Breaker also seems pro-concept for the reasons stated so far. Toxicing Mega Sableye or even just setting up Stealth Rock against it helps CAP21's viability and helps take care of one of its threats. Compound Eyes is arguably pro-concept, but I'm not totally convinced it's viable when Regenerator exists.

I'm not as sold on Defiant, it seems entirely like a "generically good" boost. We don't need to keep boosting our Attack and I don't believe now's the time to worry about if or how CAP21 should alter its stats.

snake_rattler raises a good point: It's very hard to find Abilities that aren't ultra-niche but don't overshadow the Mega forme. I'm not sure that there are many out there, and I don't think many beyond Intimidate and Mold Breaker have proven their case. That's not to say they're locks for the slate: if the arguments against those Abilities defeat those in favor then they won't be slated.

Keep going with the three questions posed in the OP and just keep arguing in favor or against Abilities posted so far. I'm going to wrap this thread up in about 36 hours, so move quickly!

 

[snake]

The reason why I mentioned Rock Head and Poison Touch is because they:
a) fit the concept: promoting the strengths of a typing.
b) would actually be somewhat helpful (as opposed to something like Poison Heal, I hope you understand that one lol).
c) do not overshadow the Mega Forme's ability.

They are more niche, but they're pro-concept imo. But I understand that abilities like Intimidate and Mold Breaker are more enticing. However, one problem with Intimidate is that it doesn't necessarily promote a strength of a typing. It's more of a "generically good" ability. Granted, it'd be very helpful, but I feel like we've seen this before...where we've hyped up Intimidate a lot, but then it turns out to be subpar... Oh right! Tomohawk and Cawmodore (bear with me here, just looking at a trend). Tomohawk and Cawmodore, much like CAP21, both have much more useful abilities than Intimidate in their arsenals (Prankster and Volt Absorb respectively). I feel like we might be repeating this again, but we're saying, "Oh Intimidate would be SOOOO useful," but then it never gets used, in this case on CAP21, over Regenerator. Just a thought.

On the other hand Mold Breaker sounds like a better idea, concept-wise. First, (and least importantly) it sounds more pro-concept than Intimidate. Second and much more importantly, it helps play to the strengths of our typing and the utility aspect of CAP21 that seems to have fallen by the wayside. Like we've said, it can help get Stealth Rock and Toxic past Magic Bounce users, break through Sturdy users, and Levitate user (if we have ground coverage). Overall, even though it might be not as helpful, I feel like Mold Breaker follows the concept better than Intimidate.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

I've been impressed by a few Abilities so far, such as Intimidate and Mold Breaker. The former I believe to be pro-concept because of how it helps CAP21 cope with Physical attackers that it has a hard time threatening. Taking a little less damage from Talonflame or especially Azumarill could go a long way towards threatening the Pokemon we need to threaten. Mold Breaker also seems pro-concept for the reasons stated so far. Toxicing Mega Sableye or even just setting up Stealth Rock against it helps CAP21's viability and helps take care of one of its threats. Compound Eyes is arguably pro-concept, but I'm not totally convinced it's viable when Regenerator exists.

I'm not as sold on Defiant, it seems entirely like a "generically good" boost. We don't need to keep boosting our Attack and I don't believe now's the time to worry about if or how CAP21 should alter its stats.

snake_rattler raises a good point: It's very hard to find Abilities that aren't ultra-niche but don't overshadow the Mega forme. I'm not sure that there are many out there, and I don't think many beyond Intimidate and Mold Breaker have proven their case. That's not to say they're locks for the slate: if the arguments against those Abilities defeat those in favor then they won't be slated.

DetroitLolcat's point convinced me more than the other arguments. We need it to more easily check several of our intended prey, such as as Azumarill and Taloflame as stated, as well as some other Pokemon we want to check to some extent such as Breloom, who would otherwise crush this CAP with Technician Bullet Seeds, and Mega Pinsir, who could otherwise dominate with Close Combat. We will have to watch out for him anyways though because it tends to carry Earthquake as well.

I do believe Intimidate works with the concept. We are using this typing to it's full advantage, and we are unable to completely do this if we are KOed by their neutral physical attacks. I still do like Defiant and Mold Breaker a lot, but based off of everyone else's posts, Intimidate seems to be the clear forrunner.

 

[FriesforNapkins]

I do believe Intimidate works with the concept. We are using this typing to it's full advantage, and we are unable to completely do this if we are KOed by their neutral physical attacks. I still do like Defiant and Mold Breaker a lot, but based off of everyone else's posts, Intimidate seems to be the clear forrunner.

It's true. I really do still like Rattled just because I feel like there isn't a better 'mon to use that ability than what we have of CAP21 so far, but objectively Intimidate seems like the best suggestion up that alley (by which I mean stat-altering abilities).

Mold Breaker's interesting. I feel like it's up the same alley as Oblivious, except useful in different ways. More ways, honestly, at least in OU. I am in favor of it, but I do still have to say I support Intimidate more.

I'm not as sold on Defiant, it seems entirely like a "generically good" boost. We don't need to keep boosting our Attack and I don't believe now's the time to worry about if or how CAP21 should alter its stats.

^Here's where I think the most room for debate is made. I'm not saying it's entirely black and white like this, but most of the discussion I've witnessed so far is either pro-boosting ability, or pro-support ability, whether it's Rattled, Defiant, Intimidate, Justified or others versus Solid Rock, Oblivious, Mold Breaker, Compound Eyes or others. Not to say anyone's on teams or biased in any regard, but I do think that's one of the bigger issues this discussion so far is boiling down to. The reason I quoted the text above is due specifically to the phrase, "I don't believe now's the time to worry about if or how CAP21 should alter its stats." This is because I suspect that's something some participants so far might disagree on. Just figured I'd put it out there.

 

[vyomov]

I'd like to nominate another ability, one not considered before: Volt Absorb.
Volt Absorb, unlike the other immunity based abilities discussed in the first ability discussion, does nothing whatsoever to our checks and counters list; what it does do is make the base form a solid counter to Mega Manectric, Raikou, and a good switch-in to Thundurus-I as well(outside Focus Blast, which has to actually hit twice), as demonstrated by calcs below
252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 83-98 (23.4 - 27.6%) -- 81.5% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 137-162 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

All three are very popular in the current metagame, and Volt Absorb definitely helps it carve out a niche for the base form, while also protecting it from paralysis by Clefable and the likes, improving its viability in the metagame.

It definitely has its uses over Regenerator (avoiding paralysis by T-Wave and switch-in opportunities are always a good thing), and I can also see it being used on the Mega (while CAP21 is in base form); at this point, we want CAP21 to be viable in OU both as a Mega and in its base form, and giving it two useful abilities to work with can help.

I also support Intimidate and Mold Breaker, but most other abilities are simply generically good and are unlikely to merit use over Regenerator.