Ladder STABmons [OMotM November]

[Adonzo]

Random theorymon, but has anyone considered Curse on Hoopa-U? It's the only non-Ghost type besides Rotom to pick it up, and as such the only notable recipient of the move in STABmons. It's certainly got the Attack for it and its Defense could use the boosts. Something like Curse / Knock Off / Drain Punch / filler (Zen Headbutt, Gunk Shot, random elemental punch du jour, Substitute, w/e).

side note, would've worked way better on old rules where you could combine it with Sucker Punch and/or maybe Psycho Boost

 

[SpartanMalice]

The Sucker Punch/Psycho Boosts points being noted, it does seem like a niche option. STABmons is fast as ever though and it mostly depends on who gets the hit first, can Hoopa find time to set up? Hm.

 

[Lcass4919]

Random theorymon, but has anyone considered Curse on Hoopa-U? It's the only non-Ghost type besides Rotom to pick it up, and as such the only notable recipient of the move in STABmons. It's certainly got the Attack for it and its Defense could use the boosts. Something like Curse / Knock Off / Drain Punch / filler (Zen Headbutt, Gunk Shot, random elemental punch du jour, Substitute, w/e).

side note, would've worked way better on old rules where you could combine it with Sucker Punch and/or maybe Psycho Boost

curse is pretty counter productive on hoops. you would think "oh patching up its defense? and increasing its attack? yes please!" but in reality, your making it WORSE at what it could potentially do. hoops is way too frail statwise and typingwise to be bulky setup. curse is for those pokemon who can afford to be slower then walls. curse hoopa actually has so many counters its not even funny. rememeber, in order for curse to have ANY survivability, hoopa NEEDS to be max hp and max spc def. meaning its attack stat is nowhere NEAR as threatening. and it gains a counter with landorus,(or clefable if you go ice punch). tbh, if your going to use hoopa, use its nasty plot set if you want to deal with stall, mixed set if you want to deal with stall but have a way to check offense (suckerpunch) or go scarf if you want something for offense. curse sounds good on paper...but its seriously lacking in like...everything to use it properly. high spc def aside. maybe if its typing granted it some resists/no 4x weaknesses. then it would be viable. but hey, try it out regardless, it COULD be a hidden gem, and im just underestimating it. landorus also counters it. which is no bueno. i just feel like hoopa has better things to do then try to be a snorlax clone.

also, to explain what i mean when i say "it has more counters" im going to point at landorus and sable. both of which can shrug off its moves on the switchin(-1 0 Atk Hoopa Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 168-200 (43.9 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery) for those who doubt me, and safely burn/ohko it with will o/u-turn. perhaps giving it HP and attack could work, allthough it allows it to be broken way easier.

 

[Thatwackycruton]

More convo on this thread! I wannna talk about the monstrosity that is Maga beedrill, who now has access to megahorn and gunk shot. While these aren't exactly reliable, they hit like nukes coming off of 150 adaptability-boosted attack, and it's high speed lets it threaten bot offensive and defensive teams alike. Pairing it up with a ghost or steel might be a good idea to stop its large weakness to fakespeeders due to low physical bulk. What do you guys think?

 

[G-Luke]

More convo on this thread! I wannna talk about the monstrosity that is Maga beedrill, who now has access to megahorn and gunk shot. While these aren't exactly reliable, they hit like nukes coming off of 150 adaptability-boosted attack, and it's high speed lets it threaten bot offensive and defensive teams alike. Pairing it up with a ghost or steel might be a good idea to stop its large weakness to fakespeeders due to low physical bulk. What do you guys think?

Megadrill was always meant to be a super fast pivot, not a wallbreaker. It simply requires TOO much support. Defog, a steel AND ghost type, (And since Stoutland, one of the best Fakespeeders in the tier, gets Scrappy + Fighting coverage, not even they can come in safely), Stuff to handle Sharp and other priority users, AND something to help break Steels. That's just too much support neccesary for it. Plus it takes up the precious Mega slot.

What's better on Cobalion? Kings Shield or Drain Punch?

 

[EV]

What's better on Cobalion? Kings Shield or Drain Punch?

What's the full set? I've seen Doom Desire/Volt Switch/Secret Sword and I've seen more supportive with Stealth Rock and King's Shield. Can they not be run together?

 

[G-Luke]

What's the full set? I've seen Doom Desire/Volt Switch/Secret Sword and I've seen more supportive with Stealth Rock and King's Shield. Can they not be run together?

Its a defensive rock setter. I believe D.Punch is better on this set, but I wanted another persons opinion. King's Shield and Drain Punch can't be used together, remember? New Status and Attack moves can't be on same set.

 

[EV]

Its a defensive rock setter. I believe D.Punch is better on this set, but I wanted another persons opinion. King's Shield and Drain Punch can't be used together, remember? New Status and Attack moves can't be on same set.

Oh I thought it had Drain Punch naturally. Drain Punch is going to be pretty weak though. If it's a defensively inclined set I'd say King's Shield.

 

[Akumeoy]

Megadrill was always meant to be a super fast pivot, not a wallbreaker. It simply requires TOO much support. Defog, a steel AND ghost type, (And since Stoutland, one of the best Fakespeeders in the tier, gets Scrappy + Fighting coverage, not even they can come in safely), Stuff to handle Sharp and other priority users, AND something to help break Steels. That's just too much support neccesary for it. Plus it takes up the precious Mega slot.

What's better on Cobalion? Kings Shield or Drain Punch?

I dunno, defensive Landorus-Therian covers Espeeders, Steelbreaking (fuck Skarmory), and Defog all in one slot. Yeah, Bisharp and other priority users need some additional support, but Mega Beedrill's support requirements aren't THAT hard to meet.

That said, it's still better off running U-Turn over Megahorn -- not because it flatly outclasses Megahorn, but because U-turn is mandatory (as G-Luke said) and its other three slots are spoken for (Protect, Poison STAB, coverage). Gunk Shot is a really nice upgrade to Poison Jab, though.

252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 214-252 (54.7 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 320-378 (81.8 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 117-138 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 175-206 (54.1 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 282-334 (40 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Yes, this spread is a thing.)
252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 424-500 (60.2 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaring: 272-320 (70.8 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaring: 406-478 (105.7 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

It's not the best thing ever, but I could see it working on certain teams.

 

[skies]

Hello guys!

I've come today with a proposition. Hear me out entirely before you respond please. We should revert STABmons to the old STABmons ruleset. I was planning on writing a large essay, but I'll summarize and save us all some time. The current metagame swings in an offensive favor, where you just spam offense and it's literally not even fun anymore. The old metagame was much more fun, less confusing, and allowed more diversity. Eevee General talk more I'm tired and haven't drank any caffeine today I can't type more.

basically; bring old stabmons back

http://pastebin.com/E4V1L2pW

long as fuck showdown convo about it ^

 

[Lcass4919]

Hello guys!

I've come today with a proposition. Hear me out entirely before you respond please. We should revert STABmons to the old STABmons ruleset. I was planning on writing a large essay, but I'll summarize and save us all some time. The current metagame swings in an offensive favor, where you just spam offense and it's literally not even fun anymore. The old metagame was much more fun, less confusing, and allowed more diversity. Eevee General talk more I'm tired and haven't drank any caffeine today I can't type more.

basically; bring old stabmons back

http://pastebin.com/E4V1L2pW

long as fuck showdown convo about it ^

as an ex council member, and one of the main supporters, i guess ill give my 2 cents.

i mean, I guess reverting it is okay, if scizor, bibarel, ursaring, kanga, etc all get banned. not suspected, banned. all of these guys were a MASSIVE threat to offense, and if you revert it back, all of these are just going to continue to break the metagame, it was the main reason for the split, and since we want to revert it, this HAS to be put in place. no ifs ands or buts. if you want the old meta back, you NEED to take initiative to banning these. if we created a clause just to nerf these guys(yes, thats the main reason for its introduction and why so many people supported it), then honestly, keeping these guys in would make NO sense and would make me oppose this reversion completely.

 

[skies]

as an ex council member, and one of the main supporters, i guess ill give my 2 cents.

i mean, I guess reverting it is okay, if scizor, bibarel, ursaring, kanga, etc all get banned. not suspected, banned. all of these guys were a MASSIVE threat to offense, and if you revert it back, all of these are just going to continue to break the metagame, it was the main reason for the split, and since we want to revert it, this HAS to be put in place. no ifs ands or buts. if you want the old meta back, you NEED to take initiative to banning these. if we created a clause just to nerf these guys(yes, thats the main reason for its introduction and why so many people supported it), then honestly, keeping these guys in would make NO sense and would make me oppose this reversion completely.

then why not just ban the combination of fakespeed and fix all of the problems ??? also, scizor was meant to be banned but it was reverted so obv scivzorite ban

 

[Lcass4919]

then why not just ban the combination of fakespeed and fix all of the problems ??? also, scizor was meant to be banned but it was reverted so obv scivzorite ban

fakespeed isnt the only issue thats why, its varying sets, belly drum/SD/fakeout/shell smash. all of these posed problems to offense and even stall, heck, maybe even just enforcing a "1 normal STAB gain" clause could help. better then limiting normal altogether.

ill support this, but only if SOMETHING is done about espeeders. anything.

of course i know my decision is only one of thousands (im not on the council anymore) but i also know why this clause was put in place, and removing it only brings the problem back.

 

[Funbot28]

Ya main reason why I stopped playing STABmons was just because the meta is too offensive just like unfixable said. There are too many threats to take care of, and not preparing for even one of them can decide the fate of the battle. I agree with Lcass4919 that a clause should be in place and Normal Clause (limit 1 normal move) would be perfect to nerf all the threats in the old metagame.There is precidence to this in Gen V and LC STABmons currently, and the change would allow many playstyle to cultivate once more, and basic HO spam would decrease quite significantly imo.

 

[EV]

No Normal Clause.

Normal Clause would not fix: Scizor, Thundurus, Mega Slowbro, Kyurem-B, Hoopa-U, and many other big threats currently allowed. It also would not save Mega Metagross, Mega Aerodactyl, Keldeo, Porygon-Z, and potentially Sylveon from the banlist under current conditions.

I'm not asking for a reversion for balance. I'm asking for a reversion for simplicity. Then we can go from there.

Why now? The ladder is (probably) getting cut come Z. And OMGS is upon us.

I'm not concerned about permanence at this point, so I can accept that we're losing our ladder. However, the STABmons Open is not for another month and I want the simplest of rules in place for the tournament, especially considering we're going to draw a good chunk of non-OM players.

So: Classic STABMONS, clean slate.

 

[Funbot28]

So: Classic STABMONS, clean slate.

So I don't understand, STABmons will be reverted to it's original form with no bans?

 

[Lcass4919]

So I don't understand, STABmons will be reverted to it's original form with no bans?

did you not read the conversation unfixable made? lmao. stabmons is being reverted to its old self. so basically landorus can use roost+ brave bird again etc.

 

[Funbot28]

did you not read the conversation unfixable made? lmao. stabmons is being reverted to its old self. so basically landorus can use roost+ brave bird again etc.

Ok I understood that part, it was the clean slate part that just confused me

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Sweet! Time to bring back my Shift Gear + Shadow Force Aegislash.

 

[EV]

Sweet! Time to bring back my Shift Gear + Shadow Force Aegislash.

Aegislash is Ubers, so no you can't bring it back.

 

[skies]

Eevee General so we're going back thats official now or

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

OK then I'll use my Shift Gear + Gear Grind + Powder Scizor. And Geomancy + Moonblast + Oblivion Wing Togekiss

 

[The Immortal]

Eevee General so we're going back thats official now or

The deed is done

(OU banlist; no Sketch, no Chatter)

 

[canno]

Since we're going back to the old STABmons rules (I'm assuming the banlist is leaving off where we left it off)

I think we should suspect both Togekiss and Scizorite, or at the very least just Scizorite. We all know how ridiculous Mega Scizor is (hell I think a suspect on Scizor in general might be worth looking at, but for the time being Mega Scizor is something I feel should go) with Shift Gear + Gear Grind. Meanwhile GeoKiss is still a very dangerous sweeper that can basically win the game once it sets-up (which I admit is a slightly misleading stance, as you will probably only set-up in a situation were setting up wins you the game due to how Geomancy works. Still, it's not technically incorrect ;p). Bulky GeoKiss in particular is really hard to break through, while normal GeoKiss has godly coverage. Thoughts?

 

[EV]

#Eevee General: I want to try banning moves this time
#Eevee General: rather than just the pokemon
#Eevee General: similar to how AAA bans abilities
@Zangooser:By ban, does that imply only STAB obtained moves, or that move in general?
#Eevee General: STABmons obtained

^Keep this stuff in mind