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Metagame NP: RU Stage 12: Wrecking Ball (see post 65 and 66)
- Thread starter Molk
- Start date
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On the topic of Tyrantrum, there's not too much about the scarf set that hasn't been said. I really think that the band set is being massively overlooked right now, since it 2hkos a lot of the offensive rock resists and, to my knowledge, 3hkos the entire tier minus Lix and Registeel with Head Smash. The scarf set is so prevalent and forces switches so easily that I don't think it's even that hard for Tyrantrum to get that key early game kill, and it has the bulk, typing, power, and speed (above other slow wallbreakers) for the band set to usually grab a second kill. I do think scarf is likely the better set for terrorizing offense, but the band set's very good matchup versus team comps that scarf struggles with is important to keep in mind, because it's easy to think you're prepared and get blown back anyway. I do think Tyrantrum is unhealthy and is, in my opinion, banworthy.
At the same time, the amount of role compression Tyrantrum offers to offense is massive. It's a fletch counter, normal check, fire resist, is able to revenge almost everything that doesn't have boosted super effective priority or a scarf (there's some exceptions of course), and just generally pretty physically bulky. I don't think offense would be better off without Tyrantrum, I just think it'd be more diverse.
One mon I like pairing with scarf Tyrantrum is Swords Dance Drapion. Drapion, especially Shuca sets, lures in and breaks down bulky grounds Tyrantrum hates, while also harassing Bronzong and Registeel. The main bulky grounds it doesn't usually beat - Seismitoad, Flygon, and Steelix - are weakened to the point that they're not able to limit Head Smash spam. It can feel kind of dumb to let a mon suicide itself onto a Steelix just to do 45% (Lum) to 90% (Shuca that lives an EQ and hits a second time).
Another hype mon for this meta is offensive Trick Room Bronzong. It's cool, checks Tyrantrum sort of, and is not terrible at all. I've seen a lot of teams on the ladder that seemed more like suicide lead balance than offense because they used momentum sucking Ttrum checks, and it CAN be handled without turning into semi-balance.
At the same time, the amount of role compression Tyrantrum offers to offense is massive. It's a fletch counter, normal check, fire resist, is able to revenge almost everything that doesn't have boosted super effective priority or a scarf (there's some exceptions of course), and just generally pretty physically bulky. I don't think offense would be better off without Tyrantrum, I just think it'd be more diverse.
One mon I like pairing with scarf Tyrantrum is Swords Dance Drapion. Drapion, especially Shuca sets, lures in and breaks down bulky grounds Tyrantrum hates, while also harassing Bronzong and Registeel. The main bulky grounds it doesn't usually beat - Seismitoad, Flygon, and Steelix - are weakened to the point that they're not able to limit Head Smash spam. It can feel kind of dumb to let a mon suicide itself onto a Steelix just to do 45% (Lum) to 90% (Shuca that lives an EQ and hits a second time).
Another hype mon for this meta is offensive Trick Room Bronzong. It's cool, checks Tyrantrum sort of, and is not terrible at all. I've seen a lot of teams on the ladder that seemed more like suicide lead balance than offense because they used momentum sucking Ttrum checks, and it CAN be handled without turning into semi-balance.
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Totally missing it then. I'll be at a local convention this entire weekend, but I'll try to get the word out a little bit tomorrow. Anyway, I want to draw attention to a couple of Pokemon that I've been having a fair bit of fun with so far this suspect test:
Slowking (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 168 HP / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
- Scald
- Psychic
- Fire Blast
- Trick
Slowking's Choice Specs set is really underrated. Scald is super easy to spam considering many typical Slowking switch-ins aren't expecting a strong attack. It does lots of damage to neutral targets and it still had the bulk to check most special attackers its supposed to check. Psychic is a good secondary STAB and is really nice if you think a Grass-type might be coming in, but you don't want to risk Fire Blast. Also very useful for defensive Poison-types like Vileplume and Qwilfish, which may be expecting an easy switch-in or may attempt to setup if both they and Slowking come in on a double switch. Fire Blast is great for Steel-types that may be anticipating a Calm Mind or defensive set that they can cripple with Toxic or threaten out with their offensive presence. Trick rounds out the set as a way to cripple opposing Slowking and other assorted defensive walls Slowking may have a hard time with. The EVs get past Rhyperior and any that attempt to hit that benchmark with the rest in Special Attack and HP.
Gallade @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
SD Gallade is just a monster imo. It can use Life Orb to be an immediate threat to hyper offense / balance teams or Lum Berry to reliably set up vs stall teams (which are very hard to use rn) Close Combat is a nuke with Life Orb. With Life Orb, virtually any offensive threat that is neutral to it without a lot of physical bulk. Virizion, an offensive sweeper with 91 / 72 physical bulk (not bad for offensive sweeper standards) is OHKOed without hazard support or ANY prior damage. If the opponent has a Pokemon faster than Gallade along with a Pokemon that forces Gallade to use Close Combat, it's generally better to fire off Close Combat. Zen Headbutt beats bulky Poison-types and is also nice to deal significant damage to Aromatisse. Knock Off is never a bad move to throw out since it removes items and has solid Base Power. Swords Dance is what really turns Gallade into a juggernaut. Give it speed control support or a matchup vs. stall, and Gallade will simply be able to tear the opponent apart with boosted attacks. It's this flexibility to utilize Swords Dance vs. more defensive teams that I prefer Life Orb over Choice Band on Gallade in this meta. Base 80 Speed is really good for a wallbreaker and Gallade has coverage as well as brute force. Gallade's physical bulk is sort of poor and it is outsped by a myriad of offensive threats, but Gallade has the special bulk to handle any neutral hit on that end of the spectrum and retaliate (likely with a KO) Just to show the raw special bulk of Gallade, Choice Specs Meloetta, the strongest special attacker that outspeeds Gallade, does 83.2% maximum with Hyper Voice / Psychic. Double Fighting cores are still possible and SD Gallade is a big reason as to why. SD Gallade struggles vs hyper offense and Spiritomb. Houndoom is golden with it. Not only does Houndoom pack priority in Sucker Punch, but it also isn't scared of anything Spiritomb has to typically offer and it can Pursuit trap most resistances to Close Combat. Throw a Scarf Fighting-type on top (Emboar and Hitmonlee are the best with Gallade) and you have a really devastating offensive core.
And of course I'm at a smash tournament at that point. RU isn't too busy so I might just be able to secure a spot.
Ok i think everybody knows about this right now but this set is simply godly and Bronzong itself is quite good as well
Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 12 SpA / 80 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Psywave
- Toxic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Physically defensive Bronzong (and Bronzong in general) is quite good right now since it has the typing and ability to check Pokemon such as Abomasnow, Tyrantrum, Durant, Steelix, Glalie, Flygon and a few more but it can be clear how it can still lose 1v1 against those, mainly Durant and Steelix that can take on its usually weak Earthquake and set up on it. I stole this set off Kushalos since he went mad after realizing everything can OHKO Durant with Hidden Power Fire (you can guess what he put it on lol) and yeah that is how special bronzong was born. For those who don't know Psywave is a move that does random damage based on the Pokemon's level and for level 100 it ranges from 50 to 150 HP effectively making it on average just seismic toss. It is of course not affected by resistances so it is able to take off Steelix quite the chunk and coupled with Toxic it can easily wear down Pokemon such as Alomomola pretty quickly as well or at least quickier than Earthquake + Gyro Ball. Psywave also has about a 49% chance to break SubCM Meloetta's substitute which is amazing to beat it 1v1 via Toxic and not letting it heal as a bonus as well so yeah try this shit out
Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 12 SpA / 80 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Psywave
- Toxic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Physically defensive Bronzong (and Bronzong in general) is quite good right now since it has the typing and ability to check Pokemon such as Abomasnow, Tyrantrum, Durant, Steelix, Glalie, Flygon and a few more but it can be clear how it can still lose 1v1 against those, mainly Durant and Steelix that can take on its usually weak Earthquake and set up on it. I stole this set off Kushalos since he went mad after realizing everything can OHKO Durant with Hidden Power Fire (you can guess what he put it on lol) and yeah that is how special bronzong was born. For those who don't know Psywave is a move that does random damage based on the Pokemon's level and for level 100 it ranges from 50 to 150 HP effectively making it on average just seismic toss. It is of course not affected by resistances so it is able to take off Steelix quite the chunk and coupled with Toxic it can easily wear down Pokemon such as Alomomola pretty quickly as well or at least quickier than Earthquake + Gyro Ball. Psywave also has about a 49% chance to break SubCM Meloetta's substitute which is amazing to beat it 1v1 via Toxic and not letting it heal as a bonus as well so yeah try this shit out
Could you explain the EVs?Ok i think everybody knows about this right now but this set is simply godly and Bronzong itself is quite good as well
Bronzong @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 12 SpA / 80 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Psywave
- Toxic
- Hidden Power [Fire]
Guarantees the 1HKO on Durant while avoiding a 2HKO by LO Durant's X-Scissor. I'm skeptical, because Bronzong is a shaky Durant check even with HP Fire.
Since issues with ladder are occurring, and our hard earned wins are not being retrieved I would like to suggest an extension for 2 days at least.
Since i basically just spammed offense during this suspect test to qualify, I figured i might as well drop my thoughts about rantrum's matchup vs offense.
Easily the most threatening rantrum set is scarf; it doesn't require the free turn that dd does to outspeed the majority of your opponents team (although i guess if you don't play carefully, rantrum might get that free turn). The way that my team played around rantrum was with the use of sticky web and effective hazard control system. This system composed off utilizing taunt mismagius to spinblock and prevent defog/setup, explosion qwilfish as a spikes stacker (which also helps with hitmontop that tries to spin early or a flygon trying to switch in early), utilizing glalie to immediately pressure flygon/togetic/golbat, and also playing very carefully with smeargle's spore (often not using it just to stop the defogger from coming in on smeargle itself). Additionally, I had a u-turn archeops which facilitated momentum and revenge killing so that I could keep up pressure to stop defog or spin.
I would often prioritize webs even against teams with 2 rocks-weak members just to account for a potential scarf rantrum, or perhaps a scarf emboar which also threatened my team if i don't play carefully against it. This way I wouldn't have the problem of getting outsped and smashed with outrage/headsmash. I also had virizion to tank one hit (also can sub before rantrum comes in to try to revenge or something), and qwilfish could potentially provide some emergency intimidate support. In the event that I couldn't get up webs/keep it up, tyrantrum would generally be a huge threat that I would have to get lucky to knock it down into range of glalie's ice shard. Although tyrantrum is a huge threat to my team on paper, I found that with sticky web and solid offensive pressure, i didn't need to run a dedicated answer to take it down. Basically, despite tyrantrum's fearsome presence against offense, sticky webs + hazard control is a pretty good system to take stuff like that down if it can be used well.
As atomicllamas pointed out, there aren't that many steel types that fit very comfortably on offense other than the common durant, although i do feel like lo mawile (i have limited experience with it, however, so if you feel its absolute trash, just ignore me then) or tr zong (not necessarily on full tr teams) also have some merit on offense, not just to check tyrantrum, I could also see choice band granbull fitting well onto offense to check rantrum (i doubt it can switch-in, however), and dugtrio also works to trap a rantrum.
The most important thing that I note is that all the things i have listed for offense to check tyrantrum are all fairly good options in ru. Its not a situation where people are using mons that are generally very poor on offense just to handle rantrum, which would very clearly indicate overcentraliziation. Instead, it may be that offense is finding ways to check tyrantrum so that they can manage to handle it provided that they don't play recklessly around it. Now I still have a doubt in my mind since I actually played tyrantrum very few times in my ladder games, although I can't remember losing a single game because of tyrantrum either. Although I do feel that tyrantrum's presence has led to a general preference for balance/bulky offense with steelix or perhaps bronzong, I'm still not quite sure yet on whether or not rantrum is overcentralizing ru in an unhealthy manner. One thing I can say though is that I really enjoyed the state of the metagame that I perceived in my ladder games (the ones that weren't poor games with ambipom/cinccinno obviously)
Easily the most threatening rantrum set is scarf; it doesn't require the free turn that dd does to outspeed the majority of your opponents team (although i guess if you don't play carefully, rantrum might get that free turn). The way that my team played around rantrum was with the use of sticky web and effective hazard control system. This system composed off utilizing taunt mismagius to spinblock and prevent defog/setup, explosion qwilfish as a spikes stacker (which also helps with hitmontop that tries to spin early or a flygon trying to switch in early), utilizing glalie to immediately pressure flygon/togetic/golbat, and also playing very carefully with smeargle's spore (often not using it just to stop the defogger from coming in on smeargle itself). Additionally, I had a u-turn archeops which facilitated momentum and revenge killing so that I could keep up pressure to stop defog or spin.
I would often prioritize webs even against teams with 2 rocks-weak members just to account for a potential scarf rantrum, or perhaps a scarf emboar which also threatened my team if i don't play carefully against it. This way I wouldn't have the problem of getting outsped and smashed with outrage/headsmash. I also had virizion to tank one hit (also can sub before rantrum comes in to try to revenge or something), and qwilfish could potentially provide some emergency intimidate support. In the event that I couldn't get up webs/keep it up, tyrantrum would generally be a huge threat that I would have to get lucky to knock it down into range of glalie's ice shard. Although tyrantrum is a huge threat to my team on paper, I found that with sticky web and solid offensive pressure, i didn't need to run a dedicated answer to take it down. Basically, despite tyrantrum's fearsome presence against offense, sticky webs + hazard control is a pretty good system to take stuff like that down if it can be used well.
As atomicllamas pointed out, there aren't that many steel types that fit very comfortably on offense other than the common durant, although i do feel like lo mawile (i have limited experience with it, however, so if you feel its absolute trash, just ignore me then) or tr zong (not necessarily on full tr teams) also have some merit on offense, not just to check tyrantrum, I could also see choice band granbull fitting well onto offense to check rantrum (i doubt it can switch-in, however), and dugtrio also works to trap a rantrum.
The most important thing that I note is that all the things i have listed for offense to check tyrantrum are all fairly good options in ru. Its not a situation where people are using mons that are generally very poor on offense just to handle rantrum, which would very clearly indicate overcentraliziation. Instead, it may be that offense is finding ways to check tyrantrum so that they can manage to handle it provided that they don't play recklessly around it. Now I still have a doubt in my mind since I actually played tyrantrum very few times in my ladder games, although I can't remember losing a single game because of tyrantrum either. Although I do feel that tyrantrum's presence has led to a general preference for balance/bulky offense with steelix or perhaps bronzong, I'm still not quite sure yet on whether or not rantrum is overcentralizing ru in an unhealthy manner. One thing I can say though is that I really enjoyed the state of the metagame that I perceived in my ladder games (the ones that weren't poor games with ambipom/cinccinno obviously)
Alright. I haven't got reqs yet, but I want to analyze dis as RU is my main tier.
For almost every other tier, I play using priority offense or regular offense. In RU, it is hard for me to build a team that is 1. offensive, 2. good, and 3. fun. Tyrantrum restricts teambuilding in that way. It isn't broken, but it is restrictive. I often end up having to slap MegaLix or something balance-y on my team to make it work. I generally stick to stallish balance, but even that gets annoyed by Tyrantrum. ATM, I am saving my Ferroseed against Tyrantrum. Yeah, it's that bad. Now, there are plenty of things that balance/stall can do, but they kinda have to do them. Offense gets it even worse and has to end up slapping defensive utility on, or balance pokes. Speaking of defensive utility, Tyrantrum ends up as a Flying resist, a 4x fire resist, and an electric resist. That last one isn't much, but Flying and Fire are HUGE! This means plenty of free switches + turns for DDance, free Head Smash for Band, and just a free switch for Scarf. It's speed tier is extremely fortunate, outspeeding Scarf base-70 and most of the tier when at +1. I've seen this thing making terrible teams work. Like, no synergy, jut built around Tyrantrum. As in, Scarf Trex, a bunch of defensive mons, and a pivot. Yeah. Again, not broken, just not what you want to end up playing around. Also, I support council votes for this too.
For almost every other tier, I play using priority offense or regular offense. In RU, it is hard for me to build a team that is 1. offensive, 2. good, and 3. fun. Tyrantrum restricts teambuilding in that way. It isn't broken, but it is restrictive. I often end up having to slap MegaLix or something balance-y on my team to make it work. I generally stick to stallish balance, but even that gets annoyed by Tyrantrum. ATM, I am saving my Ferroseed against Tyrantrum. Yeah, it's that bad. Now, there are plenty of things that balance/stall can do, but they kinda have to do them. Offense gets it even worse and has to end up slapping defensive utility on, or balance pokes. Speaking of defensive utility, Tyrantrum ends up as a Flying resist, a 4x fire resist, and an electric resist. That last one isn't much, but Flying and Fire are HUGE! This means plenty of free switches + turns for DDance, free Head Smash for Band, and just a free switch for Scarf. It's speed tier is extremely fortunate, outspeeding Scarf base-70 and most of the tier when at +1. I've seen this thing making terrible teams work. Like, no synergy, jut built around Tyrantrum. As in, Scarf Trex, a bunch of defensive mons, and a pivot. Yeah. Again, not broken, just not what you want to end up playing around. Also, I support council votes for this too.
Well I got reqs so let's talk about it
Tyrantrum, as already just said, fits very well in offensive teams since its typing makes it a good check for flying/normal/fire mons, especially if paired with Choice Scarf. Scarf Tyrantrum doesn't lose lot of its massive power, allowing him to have good chances to 2hko Flygon, a common rock resistor utility. Tyrantrum has checks, yeah, it can be stopped with bulky grounds/steels, like Mega Steelix (this takes your mega slot though), Bronzong (honestly it's quite a bad pokèmon since it's a fodder for too many threats especially with Gyro Ball), Registeel, Rhyperior, Seismitoad, Torterra, etc. Also Fighting types can "check" it (Scrafty gets a 3hko but you can just put SR + 1 layer of spikes and it has good chances to be 2hkoed). What makes Tyrantrum kinda problematic is that DD, Scarf and Band are all good viable sets and answers are usually mediocre or too much pressurized. Priorities can't do that much to it (Ice Shard Sneasel and Mega Aboma don't even 2HKO) so the unique answers are those checks who can usually just take damage every time he switch-in (noone of them have recovery bar Gastrodon which I didn't see have a good usage, idk why). I don't have a strong opinion on it because it's clearly not broken but yeah its answers aren't the best in their defensive role overall and offensive teams can't rely on good checks since steel offensive types aren't that good besides Durant which cannot obviously check it. I'm leaning on ban just because in my opinion it has too much features that makes it a "too good" stuff to use, without reliable answers in offensive teams (just shaky checks) and poor mons as answers in defensive teams
Tyrantrum, as already just said, fits very well in offensive teams since its typing makes it a good check for flying/normal/fire mons, especially if paired with Choice Scarf. Scarf Tyrantrum doesn't lose lot of its massive power, allowing him to have good chances to 2hko Flygon, a common rock resistor utility. Tyrantrum has checks, yeah, it can be stopped with bulky grounds/steels, like Mega Steelix (this takes your mega slot though), Bronzong (honestly it's quite a bad pokèmon since it's a fodder for too many threats especially with Gyro Ball), Registeel, Rhyperior, Seismitoad, Torterra, etc. Also Fighting types can "check" it (Scrafty gets a 3hko but you can just put SR + 1 layer of spikes and it has good chances to be 2hkoed). What makes Tyrantrum kinda problematic is that DD, Scarf and Band are all good viable sets and answers are usually mediocre or too much pressurized. Priorities can't do that much to it (Ice Shard Sneasel and Mega Aboma don't even 2HKO) so the unique answers are those checks who can usually just take damage every time he switch-in (noone of them have recovery bar Gastrodon which I didn't see have a good usage, idk why). I don't have a strong opinion on it because it's clearly not broken but yeah its answers aren't the best in their defensive role overall and offensive teams can't rely on good checks since steel offensive types aren't that good besides Durant which cannot obviously check it. I'm leaning on ban just because in my opinion it has too much features that makes it a "too good" stuff to use, without reliable answers in offensive teams (just shaky checks) and poor mons as answers in defensive teams
I don't agree with the idea that Tyrantrum offers much much for offensive teams defensively, it has nice typing which 4x resists Fire, but its honestly the worst fire resist in the tier thanks to its god awful SpD, and the fact that it is unable to switch into Delphox, Houndoom, Mega Camerupt, and Emboar because they all have an alternative STAB move that KOes it after rocks (Psychic, Dark Pulse + Sucker, EP, Super Power (last two don't even need rocks)). I ran Qwilfish and Tyrantrum as my two fire resists in about half the games I played during the suspect, and the only Fire-type I ever actively switched into was Emboar and that was with Qwilfish. And while its true its a good answer to Flying-types (don't want to switch into Fletch's wisp though :/), I think having an offensive answer to Fletchinder is a good thing for the tier, Tyrantrum is also a horrible switch in to the only relevant Normal-type (Meloetta) as well as all relevant Electric-types. So while in theory Tyrantrum's decent typing and good Physical Defense would make you believe its pulling a lot of opportunities to switch in and start smashing things, it actually can't really switch into anything relevant because its typing leaves it vulnerable physically and its stats leave it vulnerable on the special side.
I also really disagree with the idea that Tyrantrum is a particularly diverse Pokemon, its Scarf and Band sets are both viable, as is its RP set (DD gets countered by everything Scarf does + I'd rather just fire off Head Smashes immediately against offense), but Scarf is far and away its best set. CB is good against balanced teams that aren't using Mega Steelix (which is arguably still the best mega in the tier, if not outright the best), but there are so many things I'd rather use to deal with balance that aren't as bad against other styles, such as Mixed Abomasnow, Houndoom, or Samurott. Scarf is far and away its best set and I don't think any other set is nearly good enough to be considered as unhealthy in the current meta game (I'm not particularly convinced scarf is unhealthy either).
@ above, Mega Steelix does take up your mega slot, but that isn't a big deal when its a top 2 mega without even considering Tyrantrum, especially given that Regular Aboma has its own pros over Mega if you wanted to use both Lix and Aboma. Your list of things that deal with Bronzong is also kind of bad considering Registeel is even easier to switch into that Bronzong is, Rhyperior doesn't do much to Bronzong except get Toxiced, same with Torterra, and same with Seismitoad unless it gets a Scald burn, cause I'm just setting rocks or toxicing then switching to my Virizion / Tangrowth / Aboma which is a lot harder to switch into than Seismitoad/Torterra.
edit @ below: o lol, can't read o-o
I also really disagree with the idea that Tyrantrum is a particularly diverse Pokemon, its Scarf and Band sets are both viable, as is its RP set (DD gets countered by everything Scarf does + I'd rather just fire off Head Smashes immediately against offense), but Scarf is far and away its best set. CB is good against balanced teams that aren't using Mega Steelix (which is arguably still the best mega in the tier, if not outright the best), but there are so many things I'd rather use to deal with balance that aren't as bad against other styles, such as Mixed Abomasnow, Houndoom, or Samurott. Scarf is far and away its best set and I don't think any other set is nearly good enough to be considered as unhealthy in the current meta game (I'm not particularly convinced scarf is unhealthy either).
@ above, Mega Steelix does take up your mega slot, but that isn't a big deal when its a top 2 mega without even considering Tyrantrum, especially given that Regular Aboma has its own pros over Mega if you wanted to use both Lix and Aboma. Your list of things that deal with Bronzong is also kind of bad considering Registeel is even easier to switch into that Bronzong is, Rhyperior doesn't do much to Bronzong except get Toxiced, same with Torterra, and same with Seismitoad unless it gets a Scald burn, cause I'm just setting rocks or toxicing then switching to my Virizion / Tangrowth / Aboma which is a lot harder to switch into than Seismitoad/Torterra.
edit @ below: o lol, can't read o-o
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I know its not about me, but I still feel the need to clarify that the post you were referring to was actually talking about Tyrantrum "checks." Just saying.
After laddering and obtaining reqs I've made my decision on the Tyranteum vote and my vote is for ban. People say that the Choice Scarf set is the main reason why Tyranteum is being ban and one sexy shouldn't be a reason to ban it but it's other sets ( Rock Polish or Choice Band) are threading still threatening. The Choice Band ser breaks any balance that doesn't have a Mega-Lix and even then it just takes one prediction with EQ or Super Power to beat it decreasing its switch in amounts. But these are not the only reason Tyrantrum is one of those mons that you can basically slap on any team and it'll take out or weaken 2 or 3 Pokemon on the oppents team. Hyper Offense is also forced to run shacy viable mons. Tyrantrum does have it share of checks/counters but the metagame is just unhealthy with Tyrantrum. If Tyrantrum is ban I'd want to see the metagame without since I think Mega Aboma is even more of a threat then Rantrum and kindy think that should be on people's radar.
Alright. I am going to break down the arguments for and against ban.
Against Ban:
"Tyrantrum is by no means broken. Look at broken mons and you can easily tell that they're not on the same level."
I think that there are few people arguing this at this point, as this has been established not to be an argument for ban at any point in time.
"Look at how many checks there are for Tyrantrum."
You're right, there are checks, but most are either very bad or require a free switch to effectively beat the set they are meant to check (or they're just checking a rare/bad set). Most get 2HKO'd by Scarf/DDance our outsped and 2HKO'd by band. MegaLix isn't really for every team. Some want MegaRupt or even MBanette.
"There is only one good set for the T. Rex. The rest aren't used/are bad."
Just... not true. Band can 2HKO/OHKO almost everything in the tier. DDance can do that plus outspeed most pokes (although requiring one free turn). Rock Polish outspeeds pretty much the whole tier. Also, they all benefit from each other. Many pokes that can switch into Scarf can't switch into band. Sometimes, you might be unsure whether or not to switch out, in case RP/DDance, or switch out anyway and get set up on.
For Ban
"Tyrantrum is just plain broken."
False, but name one person who argued this.
"Tyrantrum also offers a great fire resist."
Well, as pointed out, not so amazing, but it can force switches from some fire mons and set up, or just throw a Head Smash onto the switch in.
"Tyrantrum doesn't have good checks."
This is true (aside from MegaLix, but that was discussed above). Even the best checks can be whittled away at.
Now for one of my arguments.
Look at pokes like Registeel, Hitmontop, Bronzong, and others instantly gain popularity and viability from the sheer existence of Tyrantrum as a threat in the tier. Many offense teams, without them, will get 6-0'd unless their T. Rex wins a speed tie. Their only choices are to use a sub-par mon or use MegaLix, which doesn't put as much offensive pressure, is more of a balance mon, and just obstructs use of other megas like MGlalie or MCamerupt (or even MBanette).
Against Ban:
"Tyrantrum is by no means broken. Look at broken mons and you can easily tell that they're not on the same level."
I think that there are few people arguing this at this point, as this has been established not to be an argument for ban at any point in time.
"Look at how many checks there are for Tyrantrum."
You're right, there are checks, but most are either very bad or require a free switch to effectively beat the set they are meant to check (or they're just checking a rare/bad set). Most get 2HKO'd by Scarf/DDance our outsped and 2HKO'd by band. MegaLix isn't really for every team. Some want MegaRupt or even MBanette.
"There is only one good set for the T. Rex. The rest aren't used/are bad."
Just... not true. Band can 2HKO/OHKO almost everything in the tier. DDance can do that plus outspeed most pokes (although requiring one free turn). Rock Polish outspeeds pretty much the whole tier. Also, they all benefit from each other. Many pokes that can switch into Scarf can't switch into band. Sometimes, you might be unsure whether or not to switch out, in case RP/DDance, or switch out anyway and get set up on.
For Ban
"Tyrantrum is just plain broken."
False, but name one person who argued this.
"Tyrantrum also offers a great fire resist."
Well, as pointed out, not so amazing, but it can force switches from some fire mons and set up, or just throw a Head Smash onto the switch in.
"Tyrantrum doesn't have good checks."
This is true (aside from MegaLix, but that was discussed above). Even the best checks can be whittled away at.
Now for one of my arguments.
Look at pokes like Registeel, Hitmontop, Bronzong, and others instantly gain popularity and viability from the sheer existence of Tyrantrum as a threat in the tier. Many offense teams, without them, will get 6-0'd unless their T. Rex wins a speed tie. Their only choices are to use a sub-par mon or use MegaLix, which doesn't put as much offensive pressure, is more of a balance mon, and just obstructs use of other megas like MGlalie or MCamerupt (or even MBanette).
Not getting into this whole thing, but Gastrodon isn't really used because it doesn't have much utility and usually just sits and presses scald until a check comes in. Quagsire and, in my opinion, Torterra are both better checks because they offer a little more utility. Scald immunity is nice, but every scald mon is faster, can take a +1 hit from gastrodon easily, and has toxic so Gastrodon is rarely getting much out of it.
I think you kind of underrate band - it 2hkos every decently common mon except phys def Bronzong with the right coverage move or stab (and you could even run Crunch if you're that desperate). Doom and Samurott have legitimate, consistent answers balance teams can use - Tyrantrum has Mega Steelix, once, and being forced to run a specific mon, especially a mega, on balance to function suggests the metagame is unhealthy, and while I don't think Tyrantrum is real culprit, I think it has played a part.
Of course, all the stuff I said about band Tyrantrum is also true of specs Meloetta, minus Mega Steelix. But Meloetta doesn't also have an excellent scarf set (though it is honestly pretty decent right now and much better than it had been before).
phantom
Banned deucer.
Tyrantrum is just way too easy to support, and when you take that into consideration the already massive constraint it puts on offensive teams, it just makes it a really unhealthy presence in the tier and needs to leave. The ease in which you can support Tyrantrum just degrades from the overall skill level and diversity of the tier due to how effortless it is to simulate Head Smash sweeps and how difficult it can be to stop. Facilitating Head Smash sweeps is probably the most full-proof strategy in RU at the moment, with probably the only flaw in said strategy is just a minor setback in Head Smash's accuracy. It doesn't take much effort to blow back typical Rock resists when many of them can be softened by the multitude of wallbreakers Tyrantrum pairs well with. You notice that Rock resists such as Rhyperior and Steelix also tend to overlap as Exploud checks, or rather Boomburst switch-ins, that's why the combination of Specs Exploud + Scarf Tyrantrum can be so overwhelming for teams that rely on either of these Pokemon, and other such as Bronzong, as their typical Rock resists due to how easily they can be broken down. Another combination that's particularity pervasive is Abomasnow + Tyrantrum or 4 Atks LO Durant + Scarf Tyrantrum and so on, which accomplishes much of the same goal. There's just so many ways to execute this strategy and so few ways to respond to it that I feel it forces a lot of teams to shift towards using very specific defensively-minded combinations, and that just really isn't conducive towards the development of a healthy meta. What really distinguishes Scarf Tyrantrum from any other Choice Scarf user, now and in the past, though is that it retains the power of a wallbreaker, as evidenced by its capability to 2HKO normally physically bulky Pokemon such as Alomomola and even sturdy resists such as Flygon and Virizion with its Head Smash after a single round of hazards. Tyrantrum offers little positives to the tier and is just a mindlessly-easy Pokemon to use, and it makes me wonder how those who've actually tried to build less defensive teams in this meta can claim Tyrantrum isn't a problem when they're forced to run slower, fatter Pokemon specifically to keep it from slicing through anything remotely offensive.
Little late to reply, IK, but a band set can basically 2HKO most Scarf set switch-ins. Even a Life Orb set can do that. DD doesn't get countered by everything that scarf does. It is much better against generally bulky mons. This thing limits offense. The rex reks balance as well (and because the rex reks I hope to get reqs to ban rex). Choice Band can also stallbreak to an extent. Unless you have Frisk, you can't predict if it's Scarf or band until you know (and to an extent, DDance and RP too). You don't know if your check will always work. The different sets play off each other. DDance and RP get free turns from predicted scarfs (each has its Scarf checks that it can take on), and CB and LO get 2HKO's on supposed counters/switch-ins. Even scarf still 3HKO's most "checks." This is insane diversity, although one might theoretically be the best.
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Doom and Samurott do have legitimate consistent answers on balance (as does Band Tyrantrum), but don't rely on being choice locked to effectively break the opposing team's defensive core (less prediction reliant). Like a really well played Band Tyrantrum is going to put in a lot of work against slower balanced teams, but it doesn't get into a position where it "just wins" as easily as something like Houndoom, Samu, or Mixed Aboma (and a Band Tyrantrum that is not played well won't do much of anything which isn't really the case for the other mons). Band Tyrantrum is kind of like Specs Exploud, except its not nearly as easy to use because most Rock Resists are Physically bulky. Again I don't think Choice Band Tyrantrum is bad, I just don't think it is particularly ban worthy, and I haven't really seen Choice Band Tyrantrum used in any high level applications. I also don't think its mandatory to run Mega Steelix on Balance at all, and while it is done pretty commonly, that has more to do with it being the best mega than it being mandatory on balance to deal w/ Tyrantrum.
The reason Tyrantrum was brought up for suspect was for the strain it puts on building an offensive team, and this is primarily due to the scarf set, its not that other sets aren't effective, they just don't really restrict team building nearly as much as the choice scarf set.
So band gets one kill and then fails to do anything else against offense (because its not especially fast nor does it get many switch in oppertunities), while defensive teams carries dedicated and very bulky rock resists that can avoid the 2hko anyways. I understand the band set hits hard, but without the speed it doesn't restrict team building nearly as much, so I don't think its really all that relevant to this test. DD has always been awful, which is why its pretty much never seen competitive use, a +1 LO Head Smash is doing slightly less than 2 Scarf Head Smashes (which is why scarf checks / counters are still checking / countering Tyrantrum), taking recoil, and requires a free turn in order to get the speed boost which makes it so threatening.
DDance isn't great, I know. It can actually be p. decent though against certain teams. But you are realls underselling band. 1 KO is still good, and it can be saved for later. It can beat defense once their rock resist is dead. It isn't a 1v6, people. It's a 6v6. Most teams only carry 1 rock resist.
Ok, so I just got reqs and wanted to post my thoughts on Tyrantrum.
As has been discussed earlier in the thread, Tyrantrum's band and other sets are not the ones which supposedly make the dinosaur unhealthy; it's the scarf set. Scarf set has the potential to dismantle offensive teams through its combination of power and speed. That is what a fast and powerful scarfer does after all, it tries to beat offense and Tyrantrum does a pretty good job of doing that. However it is a fallacy to say that ,"My offense team NEEDS a Tyrantrum check otherwise its a bad team, therefore its broken because I have to run a check for it." I have news for you, if you don't prepare for the top threats of a tier you will not have a very good time. The question that is getting asked is whether the amount of Tyrantrum checks on offense is too limited and if those checks waste the whole motive of offense by being passive or momentum-sucking. The tier has plenty of checks to Tyrantrum like Mega-Steelix for example, but these checks tend to stay on the line of bulky and passive rather than offensive. So does the tyrant limit teambuilding from an offensive standpoint? I will be addressing the scarf set and its matchup versus offensive teams.
So let's see what offense can use as a sure switchin to a scarf headsmash. Poliwrath, Seismitoad, Torterra all come to mind as sure Tyrantrum checks without sacrificing too much offensive momentum. Well you say that stuff like Seismitoad doesn't have reliable recovery so it can't switchin reliably for the duration of a match. But isn't the whole point of offense that you try and overwhelm the opposition as quickly possible? If you are going for the kill and playing aggressively you shouldn't have to be worrying about being on the back foot and having to constantly react to free head smashes. Obviously this is idealistic but Tyrantrum doesn't have a lot of switchin opportunites and is most of the time coming after a death or against Linda (mind you switching into a willo is risky.)
But what I really want to get at is that offense has many indirect methods of limiting tyrantrum's effectiveness that are not as clear cut as having a dedicated switchin.
As has been discussed earlier in the thread, Tyrantrum's band and other sets are not the ones which supposedly make the dinosaur unhealthy; it's the scarf set. Scarf set has the potential to dismantle offensive teams through its combination of power and speed. That is what a fast and powerful scarfer does after all, it tries to beat offense and Tyrantrum does a pretty good job of doing that. However it is a fallacy to say that ,"My offense team NEEDS a Tyrantrum check otherwise its a bad team, therefore its broken because I have to run a check for it." I have news for you, if you don't prepare for the top threats of a tier you will not have a very good time. The question that is getting asked is whether the amount of Tyrantrum checks on offense is too limited and if those checks waste the whole motive of offense by being passive or momentum-sucking. The tier has plenty of checks to Tyrantrum like Mega-Steelix for example, but these checks tend to stay on the line of bulky and passive rather than offensive. So does the tyrant limit teambuilding from an offensive standpoint? I will be addressing the scarf set and its matchup versus offensive teams.
So let's see what offense can use as a sure switchin to a scarf headsmash. Poliwrath, Seismitoad, Torterra all come to mind as sure Tyrantrum checks without sacrificing too much offensive momentum. Well you say that stuff like Seismitoad doesn't have reliable recovery so it can't switchin reliably for the duration of a match. But isn't the whole point of offense that you try and overwhelm the opposition as quickly possible? If you are going for the kill and playing aggressively you shouldn't have to be worrying about being on the back foot and having to constantly react to free head smashes. Obviously this is idealistic but Tyrantrum doesn't have a lot of switchin opportunites and is most of the time coming after a death or against Linda (mind you switching into a willo is risky.)
But what I really want to get at is that offense has many indirect methods of limiting tyrantrum's effectiveness that are not as clear cut as having a dedicated switchin.
- Sticky webs offense comes to mind as a great way to neutralize Tyrantrum. This isnt even grasping at straws to find a Tyrantrum check because sticky webs are very viable in this meta as they check a whole bunch more than just Tyrantrum.
- Hazard stack is also a great way to limit Tyrantrum. Tyrantrum is weak to toxic spikes and takes damage from spikes. Combine this with all sorts of priority that offense teams can/should pack and Tyrantrum is getting whittled down at a fast rate.
- Well your rock resist has the chance of getting bopped by one of coverage moves. You can use that in your favor. A choice locked Superpower or outrage from Tyrantrum can easily be twisted into a punishing set up opportunity for one of your sweepers.
- Even if Tyrantrum is locked into head smash, certain things can still set try and set up on it. For example, rock polish Tyrantrum can set up on an opposing scarf Tyrantrum, Virizion with a little bulk investement can set up (I have a spread for this but no one else is buying into slightly bulky Virizion:( ), Hitmonlee can use its endure or fake out sets to set up,etc .
- Furthermore, despite how fast Tyrantrum can be, it cannot outpace priority from say a +2 Abomasnow or a +2 Samurott.
- Sash sweepers, definitely not the most reliable but they do have relative suprise factor and are deadly if you can keep hazards off and hence keep the sash intact.
- Faster scarfers like Delphox and Flygon can revenge kill with scarf Flygon also being a one time switchin if push comes to shove.
phantom
Banned deucer.
This isn't a suitable argument. If your opponent is going to let you set up all the hazard you want, naturally you're not going to struggle with much of anything. Sticky Web teams in particular though tend to be relatively inconsistent in this meta due to how matchup reliant they can be in addition to how weak those teams are to Flygon. Don't insinuate that inconsistent archetypes are reliable countermeasures, neither is revenge killing considering practically everything can be revenge killed.
Did you not so much as read any of the posts in this thread? The problem isn't having to run checks, but rather the checks being too specific and defensively-oriented and some of them not even being reliable altogether due to how easily it is to dispatch them. In your extremely flawed and inaccurate list, not once did you explain why this argument doesn't hold merit aside from saying "these three defensive Pokemon, one of which is niche the other is just bad, can keep Tyrantrum from spamming Head Smash".
Because Abomasnow and Samurott are going to be magically be at +2 when swapping in to revenge kill Tyrantrum. Even not withstanding the above, +2 LO Aqua Jet doesn't even come close to OHKOing Tyrantrum while it's OHKOed back by a Head Smash after Stealth Rock.
Fwiw, none of the methods you described are "indirect methods" when it comes to dealing with Tyrantrum. Dealing with something indirectly implies you aren't going out of your way to beat it, but you can anyway. If that was the actually the case, do you really think Tyrantrum would even be suspected if it was that easy to handle?
It might be my lack of long-term experience in RU, I personally found that the webs team I used to get reqs was extremely effective at getting up hazards and keeping them up there even when facing flygon or other defoggers/spinners, allowing me to consistently beat scarf tyrantrum without much trouble. It also didn't really have any trouble with particular matchups except for when my opponent had a balance team with a specific type of core that would allow it to manage every member on my team (by not having some sort of specific core I would usually have one member that could break part of it, allowing the others to deal more damage). I wasn't forced to run any mons that are consistently poor in ru other than for tyrantrum either, which is pretty nice, so overall I didn't find it to be a huge problem personally. Regardless, offense teams shouldn't be forced to run webs to handle scarf rantrum, and without it i can imagine it to be a much bigger problem, so tyrantrum still presents some restriction to teambuilding offense, although this is not untrue for other top tier threats and it doesn't seem to be too unmanageable since you aren't always forced to use otherwise subpar mons to handle it.
You can make a team to be very good at keeping up hazards, at the cost of one or two team slots (and you lose Defog). That means that an effective Sticky Web team to beat a Tyrantrum+Hazard removal core requires at least 2 teamslots (Websetter + Rapid Spin immune) and either a third (defiant, although even that can be beat as Braviary and Pawniard can be beat even at +2 and you can predict), a Web setter that can stay alive, a second Web setter, or constant offensive pressure. Isn't this a bit too big of a price to pay to keep the thing at bay? Even if you don't count the Web-setter, that's still 1 poke and constant offensive pressure or 2 pokes and a good chance that one will fail. The way I see it, there are 4 possibilities (involving Tyrantrum):
Tyrantrum and no hazard removal, which doesn't make good use out of Tyrantrum and would often be used by the type of player that many anti-banners are citing. Team effectively checks/counters ScarfRantrum here (although they still might lose to a misprediction if the set is CB)
Tyrantrum and Rapid Spin, which will just plain beat the team if they can either kill the spinblocker or predict the switch.
Tyrantrum and Defog, which can win in many ways, such as a surprise Defog, a prediction of switch to Defiant mon (when applicable), forcing a switch to stop pressure (when applicable), or killing the second relatively frail mon used as a Web setter (when applicable, almost never applicable).
Tyrantrum and both Rapid Spin and Defog, which will totally destroy even a Spinblocker + Defiant core. This still can lose to constant offensive pressure, but only when it can be maintained. Not everything can afford to stay in on (and be able to OHKO and outspeed) Flygon, Hitmonlee, etc.
Only one of these four possibilities works out well against Tyrantrum. That happens to be, in general, the noobiest one. And that's with the extra effort.
I don't think the problem is so much that Tyrantrum lacks checks. It obviously has them. The problem is they still get 3HKOed (most of them at least) by Scarf Head Smash and they lack reliable recovery. Guess what that means? You have one switch-in. The only remotely common checks that have reliable recovery are Torterra (more people should be using this tbh) and Gastrodon (speaks for itself) The issue is the fact that there aren't many sturdy Head Smash resistances that are also viable outside of dealing with Tyrantrum. The fact that hyper offense has to consider using Torterra, Seismitoad, Mega Steelix, or Bronzong as Stealth Rock setters to also cover Tyrantrum (sort of) is kinda pathetic since they're tanky and slow. Hyper offense wants fast mons. Offense in general wants fast mons and MAYBE one slower, tanky mon as a pivot. Now, people are going to complain a little about offense not having an offensive Fairy to stop Outrage, but that's not a huge issue. Outrage's lock-in effect is easy to take advantage of and p. much any Steel-type that can handle two (one on switch-in and one before attacking) will beat an Outrage-locked Tyrantrum or weaken it to the point where any sort of priority finishes it off. The issue is that the offensive Steels are very lacking when it comes to also taking Head Smash. There's only one fast, offensive Steel-type in the tier, Durant. And it's not taking two Head Smashes.
It's a very similar problem that Moltres created with its Choice Scarf set back in XY. Sure its main source of damage doesn't have 100% accuracy, but if you're having to rely on a miss to reliably beat it with a specific playstyle, that's pretty bad. Back in May / June when lots of people were complaining about Cobalion being unhealthy for the meta, I was one of the first that recognized just what it was concealing. Think of Cobalion's typing and Speed. It was THE reason hyper offense wasn't really suffering at the time because it supressed almost every variant of Tyrantrum due to its typing, physical bulk, and Speed. What's more is that Cobalion could work on p. much any non-stall playstyle. Hyper offense, bulky offense, balance, and lesser-seen stuff like Screens offense and Webs offense. And yes, I know this suspect test isn't about Cobalion and it's now UU, but it was really the reason hyper offense was surviving without any major issues. If we still had a Pokemon similar to Cobalion that could work on multiple playstyles and beat virtually any variant of Tyrantrum, then we probably wouldn't even be considering a suspect test on the dino in the first place. But the fact of the matter is, we don't have a Pokemon like that anymore. Virtually every reliable check to Tyrantrum works on bulkier teams and this isn't even taking into account the fact that virtually every single check to Tyrantrum is also a check to Durant and Exploud which are two of the strongest wallbreakers in the tier, making it very, very easy to facilitate a Scarf Tyrantrum sweep at the end of the game. And don't forget the lack of reliable recovery for most of these checks. A healthy metagame as I understand it is one in which EVERY playstyle has as equal of a chance to successfully work as possible. Right now, hyper offense doesn't really have close to an equal chance to succeed. Relying on Speed ties to win shouldn't be happening at all. And yes, I know hyper offense doesn't rely on walling shit, but the fact that hyper offense has next to no way of stomaching two Head Smashes back to back is pretty bad. Just to show an example, here's a list of Pokemon faster than Scarf Tyrantrum that can handle a single Head Smash and fight back with an OHKO: (S-C rank mons in Viability rankings)
Choice Scarf Flygon (via Outrage. 25% chance with EQ after Rocks)
Choice Scarf Tyrantrum (win Speed tie + Outrage)
Guess what? That's it. One of those is a Speed tie and the other p. much forces you into sacrificing Flygon, which is likely a hyper offense team's late-game sweeper, to ensure a KO. All other faster Scarfers / mons have at least a chance of being OHKOed by Head Smash or simply don't have a means of OHKOing Tyrantrum before they get 2HKOed. Hyper offense teams lack offensive responses just as much as they do defensive responses. Just some food for thought.
It's a very similar problem that Moltres created with its Choice Scarf set back in XY. Sure its main source of damage doesn't have 100% accuracy, but if you're having to rely on a miss to reliably beat it with a specific playstyle, that's pretty bad. Back in May / June when lots of people were complaining about Cobalion being unhealthy for the meta, I was one of the first that recognized just what it was concealing. Think of Cobalion's typing and Speed. It was THE reason hyper offense wasn't really suffering at the time because it supressed almost every variant of Tyrantrum due to its typing, physical bulk, and Speed. What's more is that Cobalion could work on p. much any non-stall playstyle. Hyper offense, bulky offense, balance, and lesser-seen stuff like Screens offense and Webs offense. And yes, I know this suspect test isn't about Cobalion and it's now UU, but it was really the reason hyper offense was surviving without any major issues. If we still had a Pokemon similar to Cobalion that could work on multiple playstyles and beat virtually any variant of Tyrantrum, then we probably wouldn't even be considering a suspect test on the dino in the first place. But the fact of the matter is, we don't have a Pokemon like that anymore. Virtually every reliable check to Tyrantrum works on bulkier teams and this isn't even taking into account the fact that virtually every single check to Tyrantrum is also a check to Durant and Exploud which are two of the strongest wallbreakers in the tier, making it very, very easy to facilitate a Scarf Tyrantrum sweep at the end of the game. And don't forget the lack of reliable recovery for most of these checks. A healthy metagame as I understand it is one in which EVERY playstyle has as equal of a chance to successfully work as possible. Right now, hyper offense doesn't really have close to an equal chance to succeed. Relying on Speed ties to win shouldn't be happening at all. And yes, I know hyper offense doesn't rely on walling shit, but the fact that hyper offense has next to no way of stomaching two Head Smashes back to back is pretty bad. Just to show an example, here's a list of Pokemon faster than Scarf Tyrantrum that can handle a single Head Smash and fight back with an OHKO: (S-C rank mons in Viability rankings)
Choice Scarf Flygon (via Outrage. 25% chance with EQ after Rocks)
Choice Scarf Tyrantrum (win Speed tie + Outrage)
Guess what? That's it. One of those is a Speed tie and the other p. much forces you into sacrificing Flygon, which is likely a hyper offense team's late-game sweeper, to ensure a KO. All other faster Scarfers / mons have at least a chance of being OHKOed by Head Smash or simply don't have a means of OHKOing Tyrantrum before they get 2HKOed. Hyper offense teams lack offensive responses just as much as they do defensive responses. Just some food for thought.
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