[STABmons] Charizard [QC: 2/3]


-- [QC: Scyther no Swiping / Eevee General /] --
-- [GP: /] --​
[OVERVIEW]

Charizard holds its place as one of the most diverse Pokemon in the metagame because of its two different formes. With both formes placing as top tier contenders, wielding impressive attacks in V-Create and Blue Flare, it's no wonder that Charizard is so hard to stop. Due to the ability to play mindgames and remain unpredictable, Charizard is shrouded in mystery until it decides to Mega Evolve. Charizard's especially vast movepool enables it to lure in specific counters and break them if need be, adding yet another level of unpredictability. Despite having a considerable weakness to Stealth Rock, Charizard has access to Roost, and Mega Charizard Y can even utilize Oblivion Wing in its arsenal. However, Charizard is troubled by the top Pokemon in the current metagame: Thundurus. Thundurus is able to paralyze boosted Mega Charizard X, halting it in its tracks, or cripple Mega Charizard Y indefinitely. Although Mega Charizard X boosts its Speed with Dragon Dance in some cases, both suffer from an unfortunate base 100 Speed, leaving both formes outsped by common offensive Pokemon such as Weavile, Terrakion, and Latios. Mega Charizard X even lowers its own Speed stat with the use of V-Create, making this problem even more severe. Although Charizard does have a large movepool, it struggles to effectively utilize it, and it will always be left unable to break through specified counters depending on the coverage it chooses to run.

[SET]
name: All-Out Special Attacker
move 1: Will-O-Wisp
move 2: Blue Flare
move 3: Oblivion Wing
move 4: Solar Beam / Focus Blast
item: Charizardite Y
ability: Blaze
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Describe what the moves on the set do.

Set Details
========

Describe the other aspects of the set such as what the EVs do and nature/item.

Usage Tips
========

Describe how to use the Pokemon in question.

Team Options
========

Describe some teammates that would be a good idea to pair with this Pokemon.

[SET]
name: Offensive Lure
move 1: Blue Flare
move 2: Oblivion Wing
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: V-Create
item: Charizardite Y
ability: Blaze
nature: Hasty
evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET]
name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: V-Create
move 3: Dragon Claw
move 4: Earthquake
item: Charizardite X
ability: Blaze
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET]
name: Double Dance
move 1: Tailwind
move 2: Swords Dance
move 3: V-Create
move 4: Earthquake
item: Charizardite X
ability: Blaze
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
  • X
    • Substitute + Dragon Dance is a very threatening set but is pressed for moveslots and easily worn down.
    • A bulkier set can be used, and even Dragon Tail can be an interesting option to use on such a set.
    • Thunder Punch hits Water-types very hard.
    • Tailwind + Swords Dance can decimate teams if properly used; however, it's very risky and hard to pull off.
    • Will-O-Wisp is overall a good option since it can soften hits, and make it easier to take on most Pokemon. However, moveslots being used for Wisp is hard to justify.
    • Dragon Ascent has nice overall coverage.
  • Y
    • Dragon Pulse hits Latios / Latias, but not much else.
    • Ancient Power hits bulky Talonflame, but is bad coverage otherwise.
    • Physical sets could surprise the opponent, but it's really not recommended.
    • V-Create is a very viable option to lure in and smash Chansey, but it also does conflict with Blue Flare and inhibits coverage otherwise.
Checks and Counters
===================

**Stealth Rock**: Chips away 50% health before Mega Evolution, and at minimum 25% after Mega Evolution.

**Bulky Walls**: Charizard X struggles with physical walls such as Hippowdon, while Charizard Y struggles against Chansey. Tyranitar switches in, cancels Sun, and neuters Char Y. Rotom-H resists all of Char Y's attacks bar Focus Blast and is bulky enough to handle it.

**Water-types**: Bulky Water-types such as Slowbro, Suicune, and Slowking wall physical sets and can handle any special set without Solar Beam without ease. Quagsire walls Char X, but has to be careful while Char Y is being used.

**Fast Offensive Threats**: Terrakion lives both Fire STABs, outspeeds, and decimates both. Weavile smacks both very hard, and can potentially put them to sleep. Boosted / Scarf Kyurem-B outspeeds and KOes both.
 
Last edited:

Scyther NO Swiping

Washed up former great
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Hi, I'm here for QC check 1.

[Overview]
  • Maybe say something about how because regular Charizard is a non factor, it is limited in holding Megastones for its held item.
  • I would split up the 3rd bullet point. Make it a bigger point of emphasis that it loses half its health to rocks. (Maybe say something like "Because of its typing, if the common hazard stealth rocks are active, Charizard loses half of its health on switch in."
  • I would delete the 6th bullet point, because it becomes redundant because of a previous suggestion.
[Set 1]
  • I suggest slashing Dragon Claw with tailwind.
[Set comments]
  • If you're gonna list the power of V-create don't just calc with tough claws, add STAB in too. If not, just say V-create is extremely powerful.
  • I'd split the second sentence of bullet one into a new point. Talk about why v-create leaves Charizard in a risky position, ie, name the stat drops it causes.
  • Eliminate the second sentence of bullet 3. It becomes redundant with prior suggestions.
[Set details]
  • Optional, but I'd consider making a note of the importance of keeping the HP odd, for the Stealth Rock weakness.
[Usage tips]
  • I'd take out the bullet point about dragon's ascent. Wasn't mentioned in set/set comments, I don't think its needed here, maybe include in OO.
  • 4th bullet point, maybe word it differently, maybe "Charizard forces a lot of switches."
  • The last bullet seems a little awkward to me. Maybe say something about picking the right time to use roost so you don't get killed, lose momentum or let your opponent set up on you.
  • I'd add a bullet about how once it mega evolves it only takes 25% from rocks, instead of 50 because of typing change.
[Team Options]
  • I know you have Starmie listed, but consider maybe listing another hazard remover as an option, and maybe stating again how important it is would be to the team to keep the field hazard free for Charizard.

[Set 2]
  • I would slash Focus Blast over Earthquake.
[Set comments]
  • I don't think you need the "coming from Mega Charizard" part of the first bullet.
  • I'd move v-create to OO
[Set Details]
  • Again, optional, but I'd consider adding a bullet about the importance of keeping an odd HP.
[Usage Tips]
  • You kind of touch on this in the last bullet, but I'd make it more obvious, and add a bullet about how Y gains Drought, weaking water moves
[Other Options]
Everything here looks really good :)

[Checks and Counters]
  • I'd put in a bullet about prankster mons. Sableye can cripple them with dark void, or weaken them with parting shot, or take them down with Destiny Bond. Whimsicott, while uncommon, can cripple them with Spore. Thundy can cripple their speed with paralysis. Of course none can switch into Charizard, but they can force it to switch out, or deal with their statuses.

Very good analysis, just implement these changes, and you can cross off your first QC check :)

QC 1/3
 
Thanks Scyther no Swiping! I implemented pretty much all of it. I left out your suggestion for C&C since that applied to nearly every Pokemon in the metagame, really, and Charizard doesn't stand out to me as a Pokemon that specifically needs the mention.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Overview
  • Their signature moves (V-create and Blue Flare) are almost unrivaled in power. I'd like that emphasized more.
  • Unfortunately Kyurem-B is not coming into them anytime soon. Plus it's outsped.
    • 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 390-460 (99.7 - 117.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
    • 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Blue Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B in Sun: 405-477 (103.5 - 121.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  • A note about lure sets, making them even harder to switch into.
Set - All-Out Attacker (X)
  • Roost doesn't scream all-out attacker to me. Name change? Physical Attacker?
  • I think Dragon Dance over Dclaw is a good slash. Save setup until priority is gone, no worry about WOW. Mitigates the Speed drop from V-create.
  • Adamant is worth putting alongside Jolly. The power is just incredible. It might even need to go before Jolly.
Moves
  • If you don't slash DD mention it here as an option.
Set Details
  • Add Adamant here.
  • What's notable about Tough Claws? (V-create)
Usage Tips
  • The 3rd bullet is where DD becomes relevant.
Team Options
  • So much Hippowdon @_@ and not even one mention of Landorus-T, the premier physical wall.
  • You also need to mention having a backup plan for when Zard-X is forced to switch against FakeSpeeders or potential setup after using V-create. Unaware is good.
Set - All-Out Attacker (Y)
  • Again, Roost doesn't resonate w/ an all-out attacker. Change to Special Attacker?
  • Also, I don't even like Roost on Zard-Y when Oblivion Wing handles recovery well enough already. Drop Roost for coverage in Focus Blast which does the most to Tyranitar and Rotom-H.
  • You have 4 too many EVs.
Moves
  • I'd stick to tangible examples of Blue Flare's power rather than something abstract like the freight train comment. Mention how it 2HKOs resists like Rotom-W and Quagsire.
  • Focus Blast is now on the set, so don't downplay it. It still does a number to Heatran w/ Earthquake for example.
Set Details
  • Outspeeding Landorus-T is irrelevant. Speed tying with other 100s is more relevant.
  • You don't actually need Naive on this set because Timid Earthquake still 2HKOs Heatran.
  • What does Drought do?
Usage Tips
  • "Likes to romp?" Too silly for me. Stick to the facts.
  • What attacks should it be switching into? Ground perhaps. Maybe even some weak Water attacks such as Scald on Quagsire? Specifics.
Team Options
  • Terrakion also counters Tyranitar.
  • What about a check to Rotom-H?
New Set - Zard-Y Lure
  • Too good to ignore.
  • Blue Flare / OW / V-create / EQ
  • 4 Atk / 252 Spa / 252 Spe, +spe/-def or spd
Cs & Cs
  • Where's Ttar? It's one of the best Zard Y checks thanks to Sand Stream. And Rotom-H.
  • P2 is unreliable at checking Zard Y. 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Blue Flare vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2 in Sun: 184-217 (49.3 - 58.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
  • Quagsire should be under Water-types as a Zard X check w/ Toxic and EQ. It can't check Zard Y tho.
Implement and 2/3.
 
Last edited:
Eevee General

Implemented everything but the Zard Y lure set. I do not believe it deserves a new set, but a very large mention on Moves / OO of Char Y's existing set since it really just adds V-Create, which is useful in its own right, but an own set for one move which really just smashes in a few Pokemon isn't to my liking. Thoughts? Kl4ng The Reptile ellipse insanelegend

Otherwise, implemented. Not writing until I receive feedback on my above comment, and I'm done with Terrakion. :p

Thanks Eevee!
 

canno

formerly The Reptile
I agree with unfixable, a mention in OO is better than a new set, seeing that it's basically the same set.

That said, I would mention a non -attack nature
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Hey why are you still listing Kyurem in the overview and checks/counters? +1 is irrelevant if X has already used DD. I've never seen Scarf, which sounds bad on Kyurem. It's not a threat to either once they're already in.
 
Thinking I'll change the sets to this, in order:

[SET]
name: All-Out Special Attacker
move 1: Will-O-Wisp
move 2: Blue Flare
move 3: Oblivion Wing
move 4: Solar Beam / Focus Blast
item: Charizardite Y
ability: Blaze
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET]
name: Offensive Lure
move 1: Blue Flare
move 2: Oblivion Wing
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: V-Create
item: Charizardite Y
ability: Blaze
nature: Hasty
evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET]
name: Dragon Dance
move 1: Dragon Dance
move 2: V-Create
move 3: Dragon Claw
move 4: Earthquake
item: Charizardite X
ability: Blaze
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET]
name: Double Dance
move 1: Tailwind
move 2: Swords Dance
move 3: V-Create
move 4: Earthquake
item: Charizardite X
ability: Blaze
nature: Timid / Modest
evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe



Thoughts?
 
Last edited:

baconbagon

free stabmons
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I feel like Flare Blitz deserves a mention on some of Mega Charizard X's sets, as it allows it to keep attacking and breaking through bulkier Pokemon without being hampered by stat drops. Mega Charizard X also makes pretty good use of Will-O-Wisp, which helps it avoid being setup fodder after V-create's drops as well as allowing it to cripple some slower physical attackers. I haven't really used Mega Charizard Y much, but I think 4 attacks is generally pretty good

edit: OH YEAH AND ROOST IS COOL
i guess item and below haven't been done for the last two sets
 
Last edited:

canno

formerly The Reptile
I think there might be something wrong with the last 2 sets

That said I think Zard X DD should be first followed by everything else in the same order. Maybe add in a bulky X set with Sacred Fire?
 

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