As a Wobb user, I would say that it is far from broken. People don't seem to realize that it fits best on HO, due to its ability to trap and remove things for your win condition; however, its use is relatively limited. For starters, it cannot wreck stall and balance to the same degree as Gothitelle and it has no hope of switching in if you want it to effectively do its job of trapping and defeating checks and counters. It also has no means of killing passive Pokemon, as it can only realistically encore them into a status move for something else to setup on. It also lacks reliable recovery and it must take damage to KO opposing Pokemon. It does; however, have custap + destiny bond.
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There's no need to bring semantics into an argument, it's neither here nor there, and using words like specious doesn't lend an argument credence in and of itself either. We can all write like that is we want, it just seems like a flourish to distract from the matter at hand.
If you must pick apart my language, then when I say "good" I mean competent to come up with a counter play and take into account Sableye in team building and not be consistently blind-sided by it. Having one pokemon on a team, out of the many options you can use (Serperior is another example - who is also good against a lot of stall, and Bulk Up SDef Talonflame) really doesn't affect "counter-synergy" as there are simply a lot of options to pick from. Things like Bulk Up Talonflame and Serp aren't obviously the sole providence of hyper offense either. If we have things like fire types, like Stealth Rock Clefable or Mold Breaker Excadrill, Like Taunt Mega Gyarados, like Serp, like Calm Mind Mega Gardevoir (who gets through the Chansey switch) and like other more outlandish things like my suggestion of Lucario (I'm sure people can also think of other workable options) - I'm having a tough time seeing it as this playstyle defining centralising force. It certainly doesn't make the meta rock-paper-scissors.
I think the real argument, which other people have brought up, is whether the sheer utility and counter plays to Sableye's utility the actual problem. It's not a question of whether people can get through Sableye, but whether it's passive influence on the meta due to the utility is having too much of an impact. Personally, I think this is too difficult to gauge, and so I don't think it should be banned.
Your previous argument of "if teambuilders have to include certain pokemon in their teams in order to counter sableye as a matter of course, that may or may not synergize with their teams or playstyles, then Sableye disrupts counter-synergy and weakens the enemy team before even exiting its Pokeball" is way more applicable to Gothitelle and Wob then it is to Sableye. Where as I listed defined options for counter playing Sableye, your counter plays for Gothitelle are "basic team awareness and modulating your plays to be slightly more conservative" - you might say this dramatic simplification of the problem STag presents is a bit specious, no?
Shadow Tag does not remain a balanced gambit, any player can use Goth as a lead and ruin many other common leads and then have switch-ins in case that scenario goes slightly awry - but the fact they can do that and grab huge momentum as a result is definitely uncompetitive. In talking about restricting the meta, I don't always want to run a faster U-Turner, Taunt lead or mega lead to account for this facile "gambit" the other player wants to make, which with the right team is minimal cost. You're right, the blanket applicability isn't uncompetitive in and of itself, but blanket applicability and the power to pull crap like I've just outlined is definitely a problem.
To round it off, Gothitelle is very easy to put on a team and can also easily produce rewards from simple plays like switching and can't readily be countered. I would say Mega Sableye can be easily put on a team, does produce rewards (the utility arguments I mentioned earlier) but can be readily countered. I think it's hard to judge whether Sableye is having a large negative influence like people claim, but for the advantages Gothitelle and other STag users offer almost any team I still stand by my initial decision to ban STag but not Sablenite.
I'm not a native English speaker, so I apologize for any misinterpretation I might have made. Bear with me here.
I don't quote your entire post here, in spite of having it read a couple of times, and I don't intend to undermine your analisis on the whole "Ban Sablenite, keep Shadow Tag" opinion. However, I have a very strong gripe with you mentioning Googly's stall team to defend Gothi as it seems, idk, contradictory.
For example:
Taken from Goth's description on the same rmt. It seems to me that Googly clearly knows how broken Goth (or Shadow Tag, for that matter) is, and the immense utility it provides for its team: being able to take out the most prominent stallbreakers in the tier, and turning double switches into coin flips, while not only serving as an alternate win condition via Calm Mind sweeping, but also decimating stall with the same slot.
He even has replays showing how busted this thing is:
There are other replays of his showcasing Goth in action, but I won't bother further (feel free to browse them if you want.) Anyway, just wanted to point that out because it seemed incredibly odd to me.
Honestly alot of the "ban sableye" arguments just seem very self entitled to me and just seem like "i hate stall and sable is really annoying to me i wish neither were a thing cos they annoy me" and stop using fallacies and double standards. Why should you be able to spam hazards from turn one without working for them or using numerous good options offense has to set them on sable or stop it coming in to bounce and then spam double switches to wear down counters with stuff with base 1600000 offensive stats to take advantage of the fact sr and hazards are centralizing as fuck? Why should you be able to use Taunt+Toxic/Wisp and recovery sets to blanket check all stall with no risk because you are too lazy to prepare for stall properly? Why should we encourage your lazy team building because you are cant be bothered to put in one of the many things that beat msable and use your skill and intelligence/breakers/lures etc to break stall? Why should we care if your team cant take status or wisps and gets bodied because of that fact?
Even more questionable are the arguments "the rest of msables team beats my counter to it though". Grats, welcome to pokemon, its been this way since gen 1. If they have counters to your team and you arent competent to take into account common cores, you deserve to lose sorry.
Next the argument "this disrupts my offensive synergy having to include for things for sable" and frankly refusing to adapt to something that doesnt really need to be adapted to because sets and pokemon exist to beat it and even set up hazards on it, like are you actually being serious? You mean how stall has to prep for all those bullshit offensive megas? How it has to prep for Taunt? How it has to prep for breakers like Manaphy and Togekiss and Hoopa-U, lures, D/SDers, taking care of wincons and god knows what else that shreds stall? Im sorry if i come of as being an ass, im really not trying to but if stall players turned around and said stuff with these arguments and wanted MGardy/MHera/MMedi, Hoopa-U, Manaphy, Scald, Knock Off, 90% of offensive megas, Togekiss, Gliscor, Clef, Taunt etc erc banned because "it disrupts our teams defensive synergy and we cant fit counters on" or whatever we'd be told to well, fuck off, by most of the community, im sure and rightfully so lol. x)
This is why if you take into account the above, i really dont think having to adapt to Sableye's influence in games when it has clear answers that arent exactly useless or restrictive, is asking the world especially given how linear stall is and how versatile offense is in the grand scheme of things and this becomes amplified when/if goth gets banned because then your breakers etc wont get trapped and then sableye and the rest of its team becomes so much easier to deal with due to this.
Even more questionable are the arguments "the rest of msables team beats my counter to it though". Grats, welcome to pokemon, its been this way since gen 1. If they have counters to your team and you arent competent to take into account common cores, you deserve to lose sorry.
Next the argument "this disrupts my offensive synergy having to include for things for sable" and frankly refusing to adapt to something that doesnt really need to be adapted to because sets and pokemon exist to beat it and even set up hazards on it, like are you actually being serious? You mean how stall has to prep for all those bullshit offensive megas? How it has to prep for Taunt? How it has to prep for breakers like Manaphy and Togekiss and Hoopa-U, lures, D/SDers, taking care of wincons and god knows what else that shreds stall? Im sorry if i come of as being an ass, im really not trying to but if stall players turned around and said stuff with these arguments and wanted MGardy/MHera/MMedi, Hoopa-U, Manaphy, Scald, Knock Off, 90% of offensive megas, Togekiss, Gliscor, Clef, Taunt etc erc banned because "it disrupts our teams defensive synergy and we cant fit counters on" or whatever we'd be told to well, fuck off, by most of the community, im sure and rightfully so lol. x)
This is why if you take into account the above, i really dont think having to adapt to Sableye's influence in games when it has clear answers that arent exactly useless or restrictive, is asking the world especially given how linear stall is and how versatile offense is in the grand scheme of things and this becomes amplified when/if goth gets banned because then your breakers etc wont get trapped and then sableye and the rest of its team becomes so much easier to deal with due to this.
Stands up and claps.
This is pretty much the core of the business here, people hate stall and like lazy team building. Some folks just don't want to take account stall at all when they want to make a HO vs HO one night stands teams for streaming purposes or to cover lunchbreaks.
Sableye in stall fixes a lot of issues (taunt, spin, statusing from lures, neutral damage to knock off), but also exacerbates stall team building weakness to mixed wallbreakers as it comes with huge opportunity cost to make the switch on it's abilities or to keep itself healthy with subpar bulk premega and almost 0 healing opportunities post mega due to its speed.
This is mostly a situation in which people want to vote for the favored metagame and on the eye of the masses the less stall appears on my laddering adventures the better.
Let's be honest here, some folks just want to mindlessly spam hazards then gain momentum and win the game with 2 LO users, or with 3 moves set up sweepers as apparently running gyarados with taunt is an atrocity(been using taunt gyarados since it was possible to do so, he was always great) or wouldn't like to use a lure as they feel they are losing too much, heck moldbreaker Excadrill has always been a thing for rotom and toxic dealt with hippowdon already(haven't used it but I got ruined by it once).
However let's admit it, even with the pressure involved on removing a turn one mega evolved sableye it just pales on the presence of "you can't double switch safely or you will get your win con deterrent against my team maimed" gothitrap. It's just it's sheer presence that becomes a momentum killer when planning what to do as the gothitrap owner dictates the momentum unless you are godsend doubleswitchtradamus and can guess it right sending your mega and setting on its face if it doesn't twave or encore you.
Lets not forget that not one of gothitrap intended targets run volturn nor bpass and are forced to carry a shed shell or be on their toes for double switching every turn they could be deployed or are used without amounting to passive damage from hazards or someone out predicted the double switch and just doing chip damage or using knock off thanks to the free turn you just gave them.
When you compare both Pokémon influence from team preview and the fact that one has cost opportunity to be used it's kind of easy to see how goth is the actual issue here.
p2
Banned deucer.
I'm sorry I have to run niche bullshit like Pursuit + up to 2 shed shell stallbreakers in order to beat Sableye teams, or Garde + Healing Wish in every team. It's not lazy building when its so restricted to even having a chance at breaking these teams, when Magic Bounce severly reduces the ability to beat stall by pivoting and waiting for an opportunity to break through. Ofc its gonna look like Goth is the problem here but it's not, it's only good because Sableye is in the tier.
Sableye alone doesn't exactly have a healthy presence either, forcing Clefable or another Fairies onto literally every balance team so they don't get straight up invalidated by Sabs existence alone.
Sableye + Goth has an incredibly toxic effect on teambuilding and the meta. (keep in mind this is only because Shadow Tags viability is being bolstered to ridiculous levels because of Sableye alone)
Sableye alone still has a large toxicity and strain on building and it prevents metagame development.
Gothitelle alone is absolute shit because it's the most matchup based thing ever. Stag doesn't need to go because without Sab, it's trash.
I meant sableye is fine, the combination of freaking sableye plus stag is cancer, my point lies in stag being the big thing ruining people ability to counter sableye cores. Try not to cherry pick my friend, as your first statement is one about goth and not about msableye in general.
Also I use gothitrap in my offensive teams, screw Scizor, screw your momentum if you feel like using klefki or Manaphy , screw your clerics, screw you quaggy, screw you Diancie and Keldeo as goth just snipes so many things on its own it's ridiculous. I choose what I want gone and I have to be brain dead to not achieve it with the many tools available to me as an offense player, heck if I want I can just baton pass with my lopunny, slow volturn or bpass with specs Sylveon until I get you and ruin your only check to my megagross or Maltaria, forced you to wear down your Landorus below zard X threshold or just plainly got a free turn to subcm my Keldeo after your only reliable check to it is forced to switch again all of that happens with just gothitrap on team preview or if it hits the field thanks to volt turn double switching or my own BP, switching goes both ways and I just nailed my gothitrap snipe in a way you couldn't stop it mechanic wise.
So please tell me again about how gothitrap is less powerful without sableye, I had a crappy day and I need more laughter in my life, sorry if I sound rude but actually your statement made me laugh. If anything sableye loses more from gothitrap being a goner than gothitrap from sablenite ban.
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Please explain to me why that is sableye's fault. That's goth. Unless sab was the one that prevented switching and I didn't get the memo.
I battled teams without Goth BUT with Sab, it always ended as my Manaphy breakfast because his wife Goth wasnt there to trap my Mana, not only Mana, Sab ends as a setup bait for most things because of how passive it is, and Metal Burst is double-edged knife, if you try to use it on a set up move, the other player will just keep seting up until it gets to +6, Sab is not hard to overwhelm either, 50 HP is trash and its defenses arent like M-Venusaur's, so with powerful moves its easy to force him to recover or outright 2HKO him.
This. In my own opinion, and you don't have to agree, THIS is what's wrong with OU (actually, Pokemon in general) since the release of Diamond and Pearl.
I thought the point of Smogon bans was to take over-centralizing threats out of a tier? Is that wrong?
Then, by that logic, isn't Sableye-Mega the best cure to the most centralizing thing in Pokemon these days?
If more and more people use Sableye-Mega, then maybe, just MAYBE people will stop uncreatively spamming Stealth Rock and rely on their brains instead.
I'm not gonna address most of this because it's just lazy, I-hate-stall-so-let's-arbitrarily-ban-M-Sableye reasoning. The only argument for banning M-Sableye at this stage rather than Goth is that it has limited switchins and/or counterplay, and that's not even really the case. Yeah, it's slightly annoying and centralising at teambuilder, but arguably less so than most of the top threats in this metagame. It has a reasonable number of viable switch-ins (essentially every Fairy and Fire type in OU, Gliscor and other Orb users, along with most special Waters and a few other special attackers which have recovery and boosting methods); and another reasonable pool of things which can't switch into it but can force it out (e.g. M-Lop) or set up on it (e.g. Sub M-Hera).
Forcing balanced teams to use either Clefable or Heatran if they want Stealth Rocks is, again, slightly centralising. But if you want to build using, for example, SR RockyChomp, it just means you have to compensate more for stall with the rest of your team, which without Gothitelle around isn't actually difficult to do.
You also have to remember that there's a significant cost to using M-Sableye, that being the extreme passiveness of a team that can support it effectively, which will always make it vulnerable to dedicated stallbreakers.
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Well, after playing on the suspect ladder for a bit, I figured that I would post my thoughts.
First, Mega Sableye. Mega sableye in my opinion is neither broken nor totally overcentralizing. Its not impossible to set up rocks on sableye as many people have stated and simply running offensive variants of some pokemon that sableye usually blocks such as chomp or lando can surpise sableye and take it out, albeit at the cost of less consistency in rocks against other builds. I also don't notice a remarkable improvement in the metagame with sableye's absence, except for the lack of goth stall, but banning sablenite wouldn't be the right solution to that IMO. I feel that while sableye is definitely annoying, there are an abundance of counters/checks that many people have mentioned such as fairies, physical fires, and powerful attackers who can break its defenses. However, many of them can be trapped by Goth and crippled/killed. That's where the problem lies IMO. So, in conclusion about sab, Do not ban Sablenite.
Next we have the goths. Gothitelle in my opinion is unquestionably ban-worthy, due to its insane capabilities on stall and against stall, but mostly on stall. Being able to trap and remove/cripple almost every stallbreaker except a few mega breakers or shed shell+pursuit cores. Goth IMO is the problem here, as sableye stall was way, way, waaaaaay easier to break/play around when the builds weren't running gothitelle. There isn't much about goth that hasn't been said already (beats many stallbreakers, very very limited counterplay, invalidates some pokes on team preview), so thats about all I have to say on it. Ban gothitelle/goth line(IDK if gothorita is anywhere near as stupid as gothitelle is)
Finally, I want to talk about Wobbuffet. I, as a user of the blue....thing (WTF is wobbuffet), feel that it is not broken or anywhere near as annoying as gothitelle. There is a limited pool of what pokemon it can trap reliably/consistently, and some of them can even beat wobb with luck or careful play. Any kind of pokemon with a volatile status move can shut wobb down efficiently while also possibly crippling something else on the switch in, unless wobb runs safeguard which still takes a turn to set up. Next, special dark types can shut wobb down, as well as physical ghosts, but phys ghosts don't exist in OU lol. Mixed attackers that wobb will attempt to trap can beat wobb with careful play and the winning of a few 50/50s can give the attacker the victor. Some fully physical/special AOA pokemon, wobb's usual bread and butter, beat it if wobb has taken one round of hazards, they get a lucky boost, or have the right moveset. Finally, Phazing can also work to remove the trap and continue to rack up hazards on wobb. I've compiled a list of the stuff in the S-A ranks that wobb has a shot at beating to show how little it can actually 100% remove
One of the biggest things that I have noticed about wobb that you can see on the list I made is that Wobb really needs that free switch in which mandates either Voltturn which is not exclusive to wobb, gothitelle does it much better, or sacking a pokemon to give wobb the switch in, which isn't even reliable because some wobb targets are setup mons. From what I have seen in the thread and what I have listed here, I would like to make a request that an option to Ban only gothitelle/goth line should be added. Wobb/wynaut should be allowed to remain OU as they are not broken or uncompetitive, especiialy when compared to gothitelle.
First, Mega Sableye. Mega sableye in my opinion is neither broken nor totally overcentralizing. Its not impossible to set up rocks on sableye as many people have stated and simply running offensive variants of some pokemon that sableye usually blocks such as chomp or lando can surpise sableye and take it out, albeit at the cost of less consistency in rocks against other builds. I also don't notice a remarkable improvement in the metagame with sableye's absence, except for the lack of goth stall, but banning sablenite wouldn't be the right solution to that IMO. I feel that while sableye is definitely annoying, there are an abundance of counters/checks that many people have mentioned such as fairies, physical fires, and powerful attackers who can break its defenses. However, many of them can be trapped by Goth and crippled/killed. That's where the problem lies IMO. So, in conclusion about sab, Do not ban Sablenite.
Next we have the goths. Gothitelle in my opinion is unquestionably ban-worthy, due to its insane capabilities on stall and against stall, but mostly on stall. Being able to trap and remove/cripple almost every stallbreaker except a few mega breakers or shed shell+pursuit cores. Goth IMO is the problem here, as sableye stall was way, way, waaaaaay easier to break/play around when the builds weren't running gothitelle. There isn't much about goth that hasn't been said already (beats many stallbreakers, very very limited counterplay, invalidates some pokes on team preview), so thats about all I have to say on it. Ban gothitelle/goth line(IDK if gothorita is anywhere near as stupid as gothitelle is)
Finally, I want to talk about Wobbuffet. I, as a user of the blue....thing (WTF is wobbuffet), feel that it is not broken or anywhere near as annoying as gothitelle. There is a limited pool of what pokemon it can trap reliably/consistently, and some of them can even beat wobb with luck or careful play. Any kind of pokemon with a volatile status move can shut wobb down efficiently while also possibly crippling something else on the switch in, unless wobb runs safeguard which still takes a turn to set up. Next, special dark types can shut wobb down, as well as physical ghosts, but phys ghosts don't exist in OU lol. Mixed attackers that wobb will attempt to trap can beat wobb with careful play and the winning of a few 50/50s can give the attacker the victor. Some fully physical/special AOA pokemon, wobb's usual bread and butter, beat it if wobb has taken one round of hazards, they get a lucky boost, or have the right moveset. Finally, Phazing can also work to remove the trap and continue to rack up hazards on wobb. I've compiled a list of the stuff in the S-A ranks that wobb has a shot at beating to show how little it can actually 100% remove
Clefable: Wobb can typically beat this guy/create setup opportunities, but loses to parahax
Manaphy: Can beat it if mana hasn't TG'd yet, but loses if otherwise
Alakazam: beatable, but alakazam can run substitute/encore of its own, but generally a positive matchup for wobb
Excadrill: Wobb can beat it, but loses on the switch in, or if drill is SD LO and sets up before wobb can come in
Garchomp: Wobb can beat this pretty handily, except for getting Dtailed out.
Heatran: Scarf/specs variants are beaten, but any taunt or toxic variant beats anything wobb can do.
Keldeo: Very close to 100% on this one, specs hydro beats wobb on the switch, subCM+scald burn wins
Lopunny: Wobb traps this pretty well, but powerup punch variants+careful play beat wobb
Metagross: beaten pretty well, but a meteor mash attack boost on the switch in spells doom for wobb
Charizard Y: Beaten by wobb on a free switch unless its a rare will-o-wisp variant
Gardevoir: Same as above, but also has taunt to work around wobb
Hippowdon: Can't kill, but can create free turns
Kyurem-b: Kyurem is surprisingly trappable, due to its moves not 2hkoing, but hard to play around for the wobb user if any prior damage has been taken
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 52 HP / 224 SpD Wobbuffet: 226-266 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and
Leftovers recovery
Manectric: Is either beaten or a KO is taken if the opponent has no dark type
Medicham: Beaten no matter what if wobb is healthy
Raikou: Unless its subCM (the good set), wobb can either kill raikou or one of the opponents teammates unless they are running a dark type.
Slowbro: Can't typically kill, but can create free turns
Tyranitar: Can be beaten if wobb is healthy and has a free switch
Venusaur: The 3 attacks+synth set is beaten, but leech seed/sleep powder sets can beat wobb
Aerodactyl: Beaten by wobb
Latias: Beaten by wobb unless its healing wish which denies wobb anything, but is still a KO
Magnezone: Scarf is beaten 100%, specs requires a free switch
Starmie: Wobb needs a free switch, but beaten otherwise
Manaphy: Can beat it if mana hasn't TG'd yet, but loses if otherwise
Alakazam: beatable, but alakazam can run substitute/encore of its own, but generally a positive matchup for wobb
Excadrill: Wobb can beat it, but loses on the switch in, or if drill is SD LO and sets up before wobb can come in
Garchomp: Wobb can beat this pretty handily, except for getting Dtailed out.
Heatran: Scarf/specs variants are beaten, but any taunt or toxic variant beats anything wobb can do.
Keldeo: Very close to 100% on this one, specs hydro beats wobb on the switch, subCM+scald burn wins
Lopunny: Wobb traps this pretty well, but powerup punch variants+careful play beat wobb
Metagross: beaten pretty well, but a meteor mash attack boost on the switch in spells doom for wobb
Charizard Y: Beaten by wobb on a free switch unless its a rare will-o-wisp variant
Gardevoir: Same as above, but also has taunt to work around wobb
Hippowdon: Can't kill, but can create free turns
Kyurem-b: Kyurem is surprisingly trappable, due to its moves not 2hkoing, but hard to play around for the wobb user if any prior damage has been taken
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 52 HP / 224 SpD Wobbuffet: 226-266 (42.3 - 49.8%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and
Leftovers recovery
Manectric: Is either beaten or a KO is taken if the opponent has no dark type
Medicham: Beaten no matter what if wobb is healthy
Raikou: Unless its subCM (the good set), wobb can either kill raikou or one of the opponents teammates unless they are running a dark type.
Slowbro: Can't typically kill, but can create free turns
Tyranitar: Can be beaten if wobb is healthy and has a free switch
Venusaur: The 3 attacks+synth set is beaten, but leech seed/sleep powder sets can beat wobb
Aerodactyl: Beaten by wobb
Latias: Beaten by wobb unless its healing wish which denies wobb anything, but is still a KO
Magnezone: Scarf is beaten 100%, specs requires a free switch
Starmie: Wobb needs a free switch, but beaten otherwise
One of the biggest things that I have noticed about wobb that you can see on the list I made is that Wobb really needs that free switch in which mandates either Voltturn which is not exclusive to wobb, gothitelle does it much better, or sacking a pokemon to give wobb the switch in, which isn't even reliable because some wobb targets are setup mons. From what I have seen in the thread and what I have listed here, I would like to make a request that an option to Ban only gothitelle/goth line should be added. Wobb/wynaut should be allowed to remain OU as they are not broken or uncompetitive, especiialy when compared to gothitelle.
clearing something up
uncompetitive does not equal broken
we are testing the ability shadow tag, not wobb and goth as individual pokemon
the point of this test (at least part of it) is to determine whether shadow tag should remain, not wobbufett and gothitelle. to be even more clear, we will be banning shadow tag NOT individual pokemon
stop trying to argue for specific bans
uncompetitive does not equal broken
we are testing the ability shadow tag, not wobb and goth as individual pokemon
the point of this test (at least part of it) is to determine whether shadow tag should remain, not wobbufett and gothitelle. to be even more clear, we will be banning shadow tag NOT individual pokemon
stop trying to argue for specific bans
Ok so when I read posts regarding the the test I see a lot more posts on the meta for STag being banned but Sab being allowed, and talking about the play with/counterplay against for those teams.
We, however, have the test the other way around.
Lets be honest here: Shadow Tag is, objectively, not broken without Sableye. Most everyone pre-test probably knew this because of XY where Goth obviously wasn't broken, and from what I've seen from watching games in the test, it's accurate. This is the obvious part, and for the most part people are arguing on the base of it being uncompetitive instead. From the looks of it, it doesn't really meet that without Sab either since it doesn't leave a huge impact the game farther than the teambuilder. Let's be honest here: Sableye removing like 90% of potential stallbreakers from the game is what makes STag so good. Being able to pick off the few stragglers because they're vulnerable to goth is what defines the ability, not being able to switch in only gamebreaking when you being able to switch is the only form of counterplay available, because all other forms of counterplay (teambuilding and playing at any stage of the game, basically) are stripped from you, which is pretty much what Sableye + Goth combo is doing. When you have to freedom to pick stallbreakers that DON'T lose to Goth because Sableye is gone, STag gets massively demoted to a strong ability rather than a gamebreaking or uncompetitive one. It's something you can easily play around in both the teambuilder and the game without resorting to ridiculous ends like Evasion and Moody create.
What seems to be a the much more pressing thing is the Sab meta minus Goth. This is what people are mostly talking about, as this seems to be the meta people want to play as the result of this suspect test, and it's the much more interesting one because stall gains a small benefit from it. Yes, ultimately you create this massive holes with Manaphy and friends that everyone's going to try and exploit, but then again, stall teams no longer have to fear building against other Goths. Is that relief of pressure enough for stall teams to be able to build around those threats? It's not like it's impossible to cover the mons that Goth counters, she's just by far the best at doing it, and she usually contributes to stall even when those threats don't exist on the opponent's team as she's usually able to cripple or revenge SOMETHING.
I think we might be going about the ladder wrong. What's way more relevant is if Sab is still broken in a non-Goth meta, since there is even a chance of that being the case (read, higher than the likelyhood of stag being broken in non-sab meta: 0%).
I guess my complaint is the current suspect test is only letting us see one side of the story, and it's the much less important side. The vast majority of the discussion is on a Sab, non-STag meta, one we cannot test on ladder.
This is the big issue with multi-suspect tests, where there are combinations of a single test, each tell a different story. I feel like its a failure of the suspect system if we cannot play the meta that the majority are discussing, and I'm asking if this can somehow be remedied in some way.
We, however, have the test the other way around.
Lets be honest here: Shadow Tag is, objectively, not broken without Sableye. Most everyone pre-test probably knew this because of XY where Goth obviously wasn't broken, and from what I've seen from watching games in the test, it's accurate. This is the obvious part, and for the most part people are arguing on the base of it being uncompetitive instead. From the looks of it, it doesn't really meet that without Sab either since it doesn't leave a huge impact the game farther than the teambuilder. Let's be honest here: Sableye removing like 90% of potential stallbreakers from the game is what makes STag so good. Being able to pick off the few stragglers because they're vulnerable to goth is what defines the ability, not being able to switch in only gamebreaking when you being able to switch is the only form of counterplay available, because all other forms of counterplay (teambuilding and playing at any stage of the game, basically) are stripped from you, which is pretty much what Sableye + Goth combo is doing. When you have to freedom to pick stallbreakers that DON'T lose to Goth because Sableye is gone, STag gets massively demoted to a strong ability rather than a gamebreaking or uncompetitive one. It's something you can easily play around in both the teambuilder and the game without resorting to ridiculous ends like Evasion and Moody create.
What seems to be a the much more pressing thing is the Sab meta minus Goth. This is what people are mostly talking about, as this seems to be the meta people want to play as the result of this suspect test, and it's the much more interesting one because stall gains a small benefit from it. Yes, ultimately you create this massive holes with Manaphy and friends that everyone's going to try and exploit, but then again, stall teams no longer have to fear building against other Goths. Is that relief of pressure enough for stall teams to be able to build around those threats? It's not like it's impossible to cover the mons that Goth counters, she's just by far the best at doing it, and she usually contributes to stall even when those threats don't exist on the opponent's team as she's usually able to cripple or revenge SOMETHING.
I think we might be going about the ladder wrong. What's way more relevant is if Sab is still broken in a non-Goth meta, since there is even a chance of that being the case (read, higher than the likelyhood of stag being broken in non-sab meta: 0%).
I guess my complaint is the current suspect test is only letting us see one side of the story, and it's the much less important side. The vast majority of the discussion is on a Sab, non-STag meta, one we cannot test on ladder.
This is the big issue with multi-suspect tests, where there are combinations of a single test, each tell a different story. I feel like its a failure of the suspect system if we cannot play the meta that the majority are discussing, and I'm asking if this can somehow be remedied in some way.
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
This is what I was exactly arguing before (until my post was deleted).
The only way we are able to judge whether or not each suspect is broken is to see the meta without the other suspect, to assess if it is individually broken. I agree that the second week of the suspect ladder should be focus upon STag being banned while Mega Sab is allowed, to determine if either both are broken, or banning one broken element that directly impacts the viability of the other suspect (which most people agree that Stag is what makes Mega Sab uncompetitive)
I feel quite a similar thing here, Stag is the thing that should have been removed so we experience sableye without it, not a metagame with only offense gaining benefits from gothitrap while stall is a bit neutered from the lack of sablenite. Also it was gothitrap removing the stall/wall breakers not sableye to begin with.
I mean I'm only learning how borked it is to abuse Klefki + bpass lopunny into goth here(something I thoroughly abused on other suspects).
I don't want to push the issue or question the council on their decision, but removing stall main S tier core former in order to test the effect of a polarizing ability(stag) seems a bit counter productive as the main element abusing it can't be felt at all on the ladder. Especially given how a huge percentile in this forums is biased towards a playstyle.
If this post feels useless or doesn't reflect the thoughts of people invested on this ladder feel free to remove it mods.
I mean I'm only learning how borked it is to abuse Klefki + bpass lopunny into goth here(something I thoroughly abused on other suspects).
I don't want to push the issue or question the council on their decision, but removing stall main S tier core former in order to test the effect of a polarizing ability(stag) seems a bit counter productive as the main element abusing it can't be felt at all on the ladder. Especially given how a huge percentile in this forums is biased towards a playstyle.
If this post feels useless or doesn't reflect the thoughts of people invested on this ladder feel free to remove it mods.
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Isn't a shadow tag ban basically a death sentence for Wobbufett and Gothitelle usage in OU? Why shouldn't that be argued for or against since that is what really happening here? I could bring up the LC ramifications but I really hope shadow tag isn't being banned because some people think Wynaut's and Gothita's LC dominance is also an issue.
?? I think you have it the other way around. Gothitelle is the one that is limiting all these stallbreakers, you can play around Mega Sableye, please tell me how you play around Shadow Tag. Remove Gothitelle and there are a ton of viable stallbreakers that don't auto-lose to Trick, remove Mega Sableye and the number of viable stallbreakers don't really change that much (there's like, Mew, nothing else comes to mind).
Ok people keep bringing this up so let me address it and hopefully we can move on, and to preface no we're not changing what's set in place in the current test now. This is going to address the like 4-5 comments I'm about to see above my post that we've already answered more or less but we're going to do again so you guys can hopefully get it.
We removed Sableye but kept the users of STAG to see if STAG still is considered a problem when M-Sabs presence is removed. Everyone keeps saying "they're broken together" "only one is broken, not the other" etc. etc. M-Sableye we considered, as Ultimario pointed out granted like his statement, was the catalyst / pandoras box to all of this that even made STAG relevant enough in ORAS and higher level play to begin addressing it. Funbot28 we're not splitting up the suspect process, I deleted your post the first time because that's not what is going to be happening yet you and others seem inclined to state it again as if this was going to change by saying it twice. This isn't really to sound rude but I think after 5+ statements by OU council guys as to why or why not stuff is being done we would like to think we're getting the point across which can be accepted or taken with a grain of salt. We wanted the suspect test to remove what we considered based on what we've seen to be the problematic element here, M-Sabs centralization. STAG is a much trickier concept to just throw off the table for the suspect test because what this thread is for is to debate on the element of Shadow Tag while the ladder can convey a non M-Sableye meta where theoretically STAG is still allowed.
You're given 4 choices if you achieve requisites for this test, we went ahead and chose one of those theoretical options to demonstrate the suspect test because much of the arguments for STAG not being an issue comes from a lack of understanding or practicality of it all, can tell by some of the posts I can see.
PDC's points still stand you may argue however you feel inclined to do so but be aware we've addressed this multiple times we are not going to be changing how this suspect test will proceed mid-way to appease all the theoretical in this thread. Had we banned both it would've been argued to ban one to see the effects of one and vice versa. We chose this option and we stuck with it, we realistically will not make everyone happy but we're at least providing a platform to address issues that have been argued in multiple PR threads and amongst a variety of its OU community.
That's really all I have to say for now.
Sorry to quote the entire post, but could you give examples of the advantages the other ST users would give in to almost every team in OU if Goth was banned? Sorry for repeating this but I can't understand why one pokemon is causing an entire group of pokemon to get shipped to Ubers.
I don't understand how shadow tag suddenly becomes balanced if sablenite is gone. Defense will switch to slowbro or bulky zard, maybe bulky altaria, and can still use goth to take out opposing kyurems, manaphy, twave gardevoir, etc. Opponents can use a gothitelle to remove stall's only answer to whatever threat.
Turn 1: Opponent sends out charizard-y. Stall can either switch in chansey or lose a pokemon.
Turn 2: Decide to switch in the chansey because you shouldn't overpredict on turn 1, but opponent doubles to gothitelle
Turn 30: Chansey has been pp stalled by the gothitelle. Game over.
Why is this situation any different from a balance team switching in latias while HO doubles to tyranitar? Still game over...
Because latias can actually get around ttar with reflect type. There is metagame counterplay options. There are no options against gothitelle, it brings game winning/losing guesswork into the foreground on turn 1. It hugely exacerbates team matchup because in some games you actually have 2 or 3 answers to a threat but in other games you only have 1 answer and goth can remove it. Most things aren't bothered by dugtrio or magnezone: shadow tag is on a completely different level.
Turn 1: Opponent sends out charizard-y. Stall can either switch in chansey or lose a pokemon.
Turn 2: Decide to switch in the chansey because you shouldn't overpredict on turn 1, but opponent doubles to gothitelle
Turn 30: Chansey has been pp stalled by the gothitelle. Game over.
Why is this situation any different from a balance team switching in latias while HO doubles to tyranitar? Still game over...
Because latias can actually get around ttar with reflect type. There is metagame counterplay options. There are no options against gothitelle, it brings game winning/losing guesswork into the foreground on turn 1. It hugely exacerbates team matchup because in some games you actually have 2 or 3 answers to a threat but in other games you only have 1 answer and goth can remove it. Most things aren't bothered by dugtrio or magnezone: shadow tag is on a completely different level.
My gripe here, I'm not even using stall just having a blast ruining win cons with mloppunny and goth, I'm certain someone could be doing the same thing with Mmanectric and bisharp or straight up eliminate the counterplay with goth thanks to klefki central. Yet people hate on stall as per protocol.
Mega Sableye is quite an annoying pokemon to face but there are ways to deal with it. If you want to use status moves, you are going to have to play some mind games with it which may be aggravating at times but can still be done. It is a bit noteworthy that Mega Sableye can setup but that is up to you to make the right move to prevent it from fully setting up and sweeping you. Also Setup sweepers and powerful wallbreakers of your own can and will muscle past Mega Sableye so I don't think it should be banned.
Shadow Tag on the other hand, completely limits gameplay. The only two pokemon who can use Shadow Tag are Gothitelle and Wobbuffet so I'll be talking about both these pokemon. Once your opponent brings either of these pokemon out, you will lose your current pokemon considering they don't make a mistake. Gothitelle can continually Rest up after using Trick with its choice item which would lock your pokemon into one move. This drags on battles incredibly long just waiting for your PP to run out before struggling to death. Gothitelle can also set up Calm Minds and sweep your entire team. Wobbuffet on the other hand, may be a bit harder to use than Gothitelle but all you really need is to get a Counter/Mirror Coat off and that will take care of your pokemon. Encore + Destiny Bond will make sure setting up will not work against it as well. This limits your gameplay because you would have to be extremely careful when switching. Obvious switches can allow your opponent to switch in their Shadow Tag user and take out your pokemon. You are basically limited to playing unpredictably or over-predictably (predicting their Shadow Tag switch-in), which can be expected by your opponent. Also, if your opponent has one pokemon that can sweep your team but you have a pokemon that can prevent it, your opponent can easily use the Shadow Tag user to take out that pokemon and then proceed to sweep (mostly applies to Gothitelle). Likewise, if your entire team but one pokemon is completely walled by your opponent, then your opponent can also just as easily use the Shadow Tag user to take out that pokemon. Lastly, these Shadow Tag users can come in for free after you've killed one of your opponent's pokemon which then again, will cost you. Long story short, I believe Shadow Tag should be banned because not only does it completely limits your gameplay, but it also allows a free kill of their choice.
Shadow Tag on the other hand, completely limits gameplay. The only two pokemon who can use Shadow Tag are Gothitelle and Wobbuffet so I'll be talking about both these pokemon. Once your opponent brings either of these pokemon out, you will lose your current pokemon considering they don't make a mistake. Gothitelle can continually Rest up after using Trick with its choice item which would lock your pokemon into one move. This drags on battles incredibly long just waiting for your PP to run out before struggling to death. Gothitelle can also set up Calm Minds and sweep your entire team. Wobbuffet on the other hand, may be a bit harder to use than Gothitelle but all you really need is to get a Counter/Mirror Coat off and that will take care of your pokemon. Encore + Destiny Bond will make sure setting up will not work against it as well. This limits your gameplay because you would have to be extremely careful when switching. Obvious switches can allow your opponent to switch in their Shadow Tag user and take out your pokemon. You are basically limited to playing unpredictably or over-predictably (predicting their Shadow Tag switch-in), which can be expected by your opponent. Also, if your opponent has one pokemon that can sweep your team but you have a pokemon that can prevent it, your opponent can easily use the Shadow Tag user to take out that pokemon and then proceed to sweep (mostly applies to Gothitelle). Likewise, if your entire team but one pokemon is completely walled by your opponent, then your opponent can also just as easily use the Shadow Tag user to take out that pokemon. Lastly, these Shadow Tag users can come in for free after you've killed one of your opponent's pokemon which then again, will cost you. Long story short, I believe Shadow Tag should be banned because not only does it completely limits your gameplay, but it also allows a free kill of their choice.
I don't think M-Diancie + Magnezone is an accurate comparision to Goth + M-Sableye because although Magnezone traps pesky steels for M-Diancie, it doesn't do much else in terms of support. Sure, it can switch into Clefable and pivot into M-Venu/Amoonguss on Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb, but the support it provides with is by no means parallel to the support Gothitelle provides for M-Sableye. I'm not entirely sure that M-Sableye is broken, and I'm fairly undecided on what changes need to be made, if any need to be made at all. That being said, I don't think your post truly reflects on the level of centralization that Goth + M-Sableye has on bulkier balance builds in preventing hazards. Mold Breaker Toxic Drill has more targets than just M-Sableye, and Knock Off has more validity on Clefable than simply handling Gothitelle on the switch in, but you're not paying attention to the bigger picture, being that Goth + M-Sableye are indeed centralizing factors that add to the usage and viability of the above mentioned move sets. I'm not saying that the core is over-centralizing or anything, but if the two combined had no centralization factor at all, the suspect thread wouldn't be up in the first place. As for using hazards + wallbreakers to help wear down stall, while I understand that pressuring the opponent's hazard control (M-Sableye and Defog Skarm) is key in being able to set Stealth Rock up (one of the reasons why I prefer LO SR Chomp with Outrage and Fire Blast on HO), I think it's only fair to note that not all teams are able to repeatedly set Stealth Rock up against stall, and that even if Clef/ Heatran manage to set rocks up once, they can be tricked then worn down with Stealth Rock, if not completely stalled out with Goth, meaning that the opponent can freely Defog with Skarmory at any point after the Stealth Rock users are eliminated. Lastly, Gothitelle is not a switch in to Keldeo nor Latios (although Goth can trap Keldeo with Scarfed Psychic if it so chooses). Hopefully my post came off as somewhat intelligent, and not completely one-sided.
About time something stall-related gets put on the chopping block!
I'll start off by saying that shadow tag needs to go on the premise of being uncompetitive by nature, as well as being questionably broken in the case of gothitelle. In regards to the overall "health" of the metagame, strategies involving shadow tag offer almost nothing in making the tier diverse and balanced. They do the complete opposite. Ban Shadow Tag
Onto the important stuff. Mega Sableye's suspect test is something we need to be really careful about, acknowledging that banning Mega Sableye will cause a significant shift within the tier. The suspect ladder will give us a taste of what the Sablenite-less meta would be like, but let's be real here - shifts and trends within a metagame usually happen over multiple weeks and months, not 14 days. I'm not implying we should let the suspect ladder meta settle, cause that would be dumb. What I'm trying to say is that the suspect ladder will likely show us only the obvious changes, ie increase spike stacking offense, increasd usage of mons like bisharp and ferrothorn, increased focus on standard offense builds featuring lati support etc whatever. My point is that the sablenite-less meta would likely not stabilize enough for us to determine the overall quality of the new meta. An obvious counter-argument to this is that we can just continue suspect testing new meta threats as we see fit, and there is nothing wrong with that philosophy. The potential problem isn't so much the shift in usage and viability of particular mons; rather, we should be more concerned about shifts in playstyles and team archetypes. Without much trial on the suspect ladder, I can still assume that a metagame without Sablenite will favor hazard balance, hazard offense and some things in-between, while dropping the viability of wall-breaking offense and most stall/semi-stall builds.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should all have our eyes on the future or theorymeta-ing. The above concerns are technically unrelated to the point of the suspect test, which is Sablenite being uncompetitive and/or broken in the current meta. I do, however, believe that the evolution of the future meta is something we should think about. This is really just a roundabout way of saying "let's not get ahead of ourselves", because I feel that being strongly pro-ban on both Shadow Tag and Sablenite on the first day of the suspect test is likely nothing more than a hasty knee-jerk reaction(not directed at you ABR lol).
This knee-jerk reaction can be attributed to bias involving stall as a whole.
As for my actual stance on Mega Sableye's effect on the metagame....well, it's kinda hard to say. I've never really had a lasting issue with it until it started being paired with Gothitelle on a regular basis. It is evident that some of Sableye's viability is dependent on its awesome synergy with trappers, which makes it difficult to assess its impact on the metagame if the ST trapping option is removed. You could argue that we already know what a metagame with Mega Sableye and without Shadow Tag is like, since that's how it has been for most or ORAS. The issue with this argument is that it doesn't account for usage/viability shifts within the tier that have occurred over the past six months. The only way to get a real feel for Mega Sableye's capabilities without one of its best support options is to experience a ladder without Shadow Tag. I believe that trapping + Sableye is what forces people to run the most unorthodox stuff, as evidenced by freaking shed shell manaphy/togekiss. This indicates that Shadow Tag augments the factors that make Mega Sableye seem uncompetitive to the point of needing to suspect test both simultaneously. My point is not that the suspect ladder should be reversed, but rather I'm establishing an initial stance that Shadow Tag should be banned before Sablenite if the latter is even deserving of a ban. So for the time being Sablenite should stay in OU.
Of course, when I eventually get a chance to ladder I'm going to do so with an open mind. I have more thoughts regarding Mega Sableye alone, but I just expended like 87% of my phone's power just from typing this up. I'm at an airport in china and my flight is in like 6 hours I really have nothing better to do lol
Thanks for reading (:
I'll start off by saying that shadow tag needs to go on the premise of being uncompetitive by nature, as well as being questionably broken in the case of gothitelle. In regards to the overall "health" of the metagame, strategies involving shadow tag offer almost nothing in making the tier diverse and balanced. They do the complete opposite. Ban Shadow Tag
Onto the important stuff. Mega Sableye's suspect test is something we need to be really careful about, acknowledging that banning Mega Sableye will cause a significant shift within the tier. The suspect ladder will give us a taste of what the Sablenite-less meta would be like, but let's be real here - shifts and trends within a metagame usually happen over multiple weeks and months, not 14 days. I'm not implying we should let the suspect ladder meta settle, cause that would be dumb. What I'm trying to say is that the suspect ladder will likely show us only the obvious changes, ie increase spike stacking offense, increasd usage of mons like bisharp and ferrothorn, increased focus on standard offense builds featuring lati support etc whatever. My point is that the sablenite-less meta would likely not stabilize enough for us to determine the overall quality of the new meta. An obvious counter-argument to this is that we can just continue suspect testing new meta threats as we see fit, and there is nothing wrong with that philosophy. The potential problem isn't so much the shift in usage and viability of particular mons; rather, we should be more concerned about shifts in playstyles and team archetypes. Without much trial on the suspect ladder, I can still assume that a metagame without Sablenite will favor hazard balance, hazard offense and some things in-between, while dropping the viability of wall-breaking offense and most stall/semi-stall builds.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should all have our eyes on the future or theorymeta-ing. The above concerns are technically unrelated to the point of the suspect test, which is Sablenite being uncompetitive and/or broken in the current meta. I do, however, believe that the evolution of the future meta is something we should think about. This is really just a roundabout way of saying "let's not get ahead of ourselves", because I feel that being strongly pro-ban on both Shadow Tag and Sablenite on the first day of the suspect test is likely nothing more than a hasty knee-jerk reaction(not directed at you ABR lol).
This knee-jerk reaction can be attributed to bias involving stall as a whole.
Sir Azelf addresses this point well, though the post itself shows a bit of bias favoring stall. This bias is evident because the entire post seems to be under the assumption that Mega Sableye is underwhelming. I personally consider Mega Sableye much more than just an annoyance when played correctly, because this thing is obviously terrifying and dangerous with the right team mates and right plays. However, looking at Mega Sableye more subjectively, this thing is really annoying to face. The pain of losing to a Mega Sableye is akin to a slow torture. Most people(?) would prefer their demise to be quick and painless, but those who fight hard and expend all of their willpower just to end up losing anyway and subsequently being late to class will understandably be a little more salty about the situation. The bias against stall and Mega Sableye is understandable, but shouldn't have any part in swaying people towards voting to ban it. Myself? I guess I could be a bit biased in favor of Mega Sableye, but I too have suffered the pain of getting swept by volc because my double SR setter team wasn't enough to fool the best of stall users.
As for my actual stance on Mega Sableye's effect on the metagame....well, it's kinda hard to say. I've never really had a lasting issue with it until it started being paired with Gothitelle on a regular basis. It is evident that some of Sableye's viability is dependent on its awesome synergy with trappers, which makes it difficult to assess its impact on the metagame if the ST trapping option is removed. You could argue that we already know what a metagame with Mega Sableye and without Shadow Tag is like, since that's how it has been for most or ORAS. The issue with this argument is that it doesn't account for usage/viability shifts within the tier that have occurred over the past six months. The only way to get a real feel for Mega Sableye's capabilities without one of its best support options is to experience a ladder without Shadow Tag. I believe that trapping + Sableye is what forces people to run the most unorthodox stuff, as evidenced by freaking shed shell manaphy/togekiss. This indicates that Shadow Tag augments the factors that make Mega Sableye seem uncompetitive to the point of needing to suspect test both simultaneously. My point is not that the suspect ladder should be reversed, but rather I'm establishing an initial stance that Shadow Tag should be banned before Sablenite if the latter is even deserving of a ban. So for the time being Sablenite should stay in OU.
Of course, when I eventually get a chance to ladder I'm going to do so with an open mind. I have more thoughts regarding Mega Sableye alone, but I just expended like 87% of my phone's power just from typing this up. I'm at an airport in china and my flight is in like 6 hours I really have nothing better to do lol
Thanks for reading (:
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