Singles Break that Core (Week 17: Hippowdon + Lucario + Dragonite) ~ VOTING (post #395)

[NOVED]

Groudonempire cause sub is really great against glalie to get around sheer cold and thund cant do shit but pray for swagger to work out before sub goes up

 

[cant say]

I think GE will win this but thought I'd bump it anyway so that people who haven't voted can and then we can move on

 

[Flamedood]

Admittedly never tried it but GE hype has won out for me- looks pretty damn good on paper.

(Is it possible in future to look at 3 Mon cores as well? For example I know we've been over the Chansey/Bro core but they are nearly always paired with Gliscor in the back which changes some of their checks and counters. Maybe some 2 Mon cores that beat out popular 3 Mon cores could be worth a look?)

 

[teamjohto]

gonna vote for Can't Say. Conkeldurr is probably one of the most consistent pokemon I've used. You can always rely on him to tank the hits he's supposed to take and dish out stronger hits in return.

Even though Moody's RNG can spit out something like evasion or defense at the drop of a hat, I don't think any of the entries, (or any other mon besides unaware mons) can account for it.

and even then your Unaware choices aren't exactly breaking this core apart.

 

[GroudonEmpire]

I vote NOVED because sylveon sponges thunderbolts and frost breaths. ParaSwag also will take a while to take sylveon down due to low attack compared to conkeldurr. Specs Hyper Voice can ohko many things and hit behind sub, so it is truly fantastic in general but especially vs this core. Though being naturally slower than Glalie means Glalie can just start firing off sheer colds and might just nail sylveon. Otherwise moody boosts need to come through for Glalie to escape the predicament

 

[skies]

GroudonEmpire – I think that the Pokemon overall needs more exposure, and Groudon's set is easily capable of beating both Pokemon. Being immune to Thunder Wave is what pushes it for being the best set in my opinion, since not being haxed to death is always nice.

 

[Sephira's Zafkiel]

I'm Voting for GroudonEmpire, because that classic CM + Sub Raikou is amazing in beating those two Pokemon. Raikou can Sub while Thundurus is switching out onto Glalie (Knowing that Thundurus can't do anything to Raikou). And then, Raikou can CM while Glalie uses Ice Beam onto it which can't break Sub (unless it's 252 Sp. Atk, which is highly unlikly due to Glalie needing bulk w/ Moody). Then, +1 Sp. Atk Raikou uses Thunderbolt to 2HKO Glalie, and Glalie breaks it's Sub, while surviving the first hit, then get KO'd the second turn. Then, the player switches out onto Thundurus. +1 Sp. Atk Raikou 2HKOs Thudurus, while the only move it can hit with is Focus Blast, which has a chance of missing, and also 2HKOs +1 Sp. Def Raikou, if it's 252 Sp. Atk Thundurus. Finally, Raikou finishes the game!

 

[DragonWhale]

GroudonEmpire wins this week (?) with his Sub CM Raikou Nomination! I'm always surprised that I don't see a lot of people using this monster on the ladder.

Anyway, sorry about the one week hiatus, but it was Thanksgiving week anyway this week we're going to tackle a Gen 5 relic that still holds its own today despite the new Pokemon/Mechanics introduced in Gen 6 not being in their favor: Heatran and Cresselia!

Gen 6 was mean to this duo. Steel lost Ghost and Dark resistance, Ghost and Dark were buffed in many other ways, and the general inflation of offensive pressure brought about by the new mega evolutions made it even harder for these two to completely wall the opponent's team. However, they still are really hard to get past without proper preparations. What do you choose to break this core?

 

[6tennis]

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast / Flash Cannon
- Earth Power

Hydreigon hits very hard with a Life Orb, and it has just the right coverage to take down this core. It can get a free switch off of Cresselia or Heatran, then beat them with Dark Pulse or Earth Power, respectively. Incidentally, Hydreigon can run Fire Blast to beat Heracross, another common member of this core.

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 250-296 (150.6 - 178.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 140-166 (61.6 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 76-90 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- 37.9% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 60-72 (35.9 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[bobochan]

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Rest / Ice Beam / Protect

With Sheer Cold out of the picture, nominating Sub CM Suicune to tackle this core.
Can freely come in on anything the two can throw at you, then proceed to set up Calm Mind.
The last slot is a matter of preference, Rest is usually the safest option so no worries about status.
Ice Beam provides nice coverage while Protect can really help with PP stall (on slow things like Ferrothorn).

 

[Benzi]

I nominate Mega Sharpedo

Sharpedo @ Sharpedonite
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 158 SpD / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Substitute

The only possible scenario that you will lose is when Heatran carries a balloon and burns you the turn you need to break the balloon. Moonblast won't 0HKO and even after a Moonblast Sharpedo can still survive a Flash Cannon or Lava Plume from Heatran.

102 speed is all you need to outspeed a max speed neutral Cress or Heatran which you are not going to face anyway, the special defense is there for some bulk. Substitute when you are afraid of status moves.

252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 152-180 (66.9 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 252-300 (127.2 - 151.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 152-180 (76.7 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[ethan06]

Mamoswine @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic

NOVED's bulky Mamoswine set from the analysis he's writing (his has Rocky Helmet but I felt that Leftovers was more useful for breaking this specific core). Basically, obliterate Heatran with EQ then Toxic the Cresselia and sit in front of it, setting rocks and wearing it down - or the other way round, especially given that Cresselia is usually a free switch-in to Mamoswine. Ground-typing gives it a nice immunity to Thunder Wave, and the combination of Ice typing and Thick Fat turns the Ice Beam weakness seen in other Ground-types into a handy resistance. The most damage that your average uninvested Cresselia can do is this:

4 SpA Cresselia Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 61-73 (28.1 - 33.6%) -- 97.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Cresselia Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 44-52 (20.2 - 23.9%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

Psyshock and Ice Beam variants do much less:

4 SpA Cresselia Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mamoswine: 31-37 (14.2 - 17%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mamoswine: 21-25 (9.6 - 11.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever

This way, Mamoswine can fairly easily rack up Toxic damage on Cresselia, while punishing switches with Stealth Rock. Also, with every switch it forces, it gets back a little bit of Lefties recovery :]]

 

[teamjohto]

Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Adamant Nature
252 HP/252 ATK/ 4 SPE

Belly Drum
Play Rough
Aqua Jet
Knock Off

Guess I have to be THAT GUY and nominate everyone's most hated mouse with more tankiness than it deserves.

But the set is simple as simple gets. Neither mons have the tools to effectively 2HKO Azumarill after Sitrus Berry kicks in post-belly drum. and click knock off and aqua jet accordingly. And it effectively kicks the shit out of any possible defensive or offensive EV spread that can be put on either members of this core.

Offensive Calcs:
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 346-408 (152.4 - 179.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 236-278 (119.1 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Defensive Calcs:
+1 4 SpA Cresselia Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 75-88 (36.2 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 SpA Cresselia Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 97-115 (46.8 - 55.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO (why anyone would run this I don't know but it's still not breaking through)

252 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 84-99 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[NOVED]

Heracross @ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
Level: 50
EVs: 28 HP / 156 Atk / 4 Def / 124 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Megahorn

av heracross has seen some use on stall teams. this isnt an ev spread you'll typically see them using though, this was altered to help against these guys specifically. it has enough speed for max speed trans and enough attack to ohko 252/4 trans. megahorn 2hkos cress and cress cant 2hko. plus you can use guts to take a twave and use it to your advantage.

156 Atk Heracross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 200-236 (101 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

156 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 120-144 (52.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[6tennis]

Heracross @ Assault Vest
Ability: Guts
Level: 50
EVs: 28 HP / 156 Atk / 4 Def / 124 SpD / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Pursuit
- Megahorn

av heracross has seen some use on stall teams. this isnt an ev spread you'll typically see them using though, this was altered to help against these guys specifically. it has enough speed for max speed trans and enough attack to ohko 252/4 trans. megahorn 2hkos cress and cress cant 2hko. plus you can use guts to take a twave and use it to your advantage.

156 Atk Heracross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 200-236 (101 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

156 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 120-144 (52.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

lol av hera. I will say, clever nom, but take a look at these defensive calcs.

from Choice Scarf Heatran (running max SpA and Modest, the spread that I use):
252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 28 HP / 124 SpD Assault Vest Heracross: 152-180 (95.5 - 113.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Incidentally, it dies to Mega Heracross. Ironic.

 

[NOVED]

lol av hera. I will say, clever nom, but take a look at these defensive calcs.

from Choice Scarf Heatran (running max SpA and Modest, the spread that I use):
252+ SpA Heatran Overheat vs. 28 HP / 124 SpD Assault Vest Heracross: 152-180 (95.5 - 113.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

well tbf scarf isnt even on 4% of trans, and i think paired with cresselia they would usually opt for a bulkier spread anyway.

 

[skies]

azumarill @ sitrus berry | huge power
adamant | 100 hp / 252 atk / 156 spe
belly drum / aqua jet / play rough / superpower

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 320-380 (161.6 - 191.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 160-190 (80.8 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Cresselia: 255-301 (112.3 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

knock off is not necessary because play rough ohkoes cresselia anyways, but i guess if you want you can run it so you don't miss and can be much safer so it really doesn't matter. heatran will obviously be ohkoed by aqua jet. even if it burns, it's still going to beat heatran most of the time. azumarill can set on both really, as neither of them have a way to power through besides the rare scarf flash cannon predict; but azumarill is really safe!

 

[6tennis]

well tbf scarf isnt even on 4% of trans, and i think paired with cresselia they would usually opt for a bulkier spread anyway.

That is true.

 

[a0161613]

azumarill @ sitrus berry | huge power
adamant | 100 hp / 252 atk / 156 spe
belly drum / aqua jet / play rough / superpower

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 320-380 (161.6 - 191.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 160-190 (80.8 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Cresselia: 255-301 (112.3 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

knock off is not necessary because play rough ohkoes cresselia anyways, but i guess if you want you can run it so you don't miss and can be much safer so it really doesn't matter. heatran will obviously be ohkoed by aqua jet. even if it burns, it's still going to beat heatran most of the time. azumarill can set on both really, as neither of them have a way to power through besides the rare scarf flash cannon predict; but azumarill is really safe!

That's practically identical to the Azumarill post above.

 

[Pyritie]

Tyranitar @ Lum berry
Ability: Sand Stream
Adamant Nature
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Crunch
- Earthquake / Low Kick
- Stone Edge / Rock Slide
- Dragon Dance

252+ Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 248-292 (148.5 - 174.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Tyranitar Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 146-174 (87.4 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 268-316 (135.3 - 159.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Tyranitar Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 160-190 (80.8 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 78-92 (44.3 - 52.2%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 102-122 (57.9 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 98-116 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- 46.1% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage
+1 252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 146-174 (64.3 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

4 SpA Cresselia Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 40-48 (22.7 - 27.2%) -- 41.8% chance to 4HKO

The basic idea is to dragon dance if you come in on a revenge kill or something then sweep from there. The lum berry is to get rid of any burns from heatran or paralysis from cresselia. The sand makes ttar easily able to stomach any super-effective hits from heatran, while cresselia can't really do much back except moonblast (if it has it). The sand means cresselia can't Moonlight stall either.

I prefer earthquake over low kick because of edgequake coverage, but low kick is useful if you want to hit other fighting-weak things. It's not as strong against heatran though.

 

[LLewis]

Scrafty @ Leftovers
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Bulk Up

This great Pokémon can break Heatran + Cresselia's core.
I haven't my computer for calcs.
Anyway, Bulk Up can raise Scrafty's Attack and Defense.
Drain Punch and Knock Off are two offensive moves.
Rest can restare Scrafty HP but it causes asleep.
A great ability is Shed Skin; It has a 30% chance of curing Scrafty of non-volatile status condition.
Scrafty's great bulk + Bulk Up boosts can win vs this core. (Shed Skin can wake from sleep caused by Rest, burn and other status)

 

[cant say]

Sableye @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster -> Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Snarl
- Will-O-Wisp

Something that a lot of these nominations aren't taking into account is the Toxic and Thunder Wave that these guys like to throw out like crazy, and that they are almost always paired with Mega Heracross! This core is really hard to take down with one dedicated mon, it's usually better to just bring a well-rounded team and play well. But if you need a one-mon answer then I think Mega Sableye is the one to use!

Sableye is able to utilise Prankster in its non-mega forme to get a Calm Mind off in front of both Heatran and Cresselia, while also mega evolving on the same turn to bounce back any Toxic or Thunder Wave that might be aimed at it. It can also use Will-O-Wisp to cripple non-Swords Dance Mega Heracross (only 3% run it). This allows Mega Sableye to take on the 3-mon core on its own!

Sableye either needs to lead off or come in safely so that it doesn't either come in on a status move in non-mega forme, and needs all its health for taking on Choice Specs Heatran. Once it's in safely against either Heatran or Cresselia it can choose to Mega Evolve while using Calm Mind, this allows Sableye to still get priority on Calm Mind while also being able to bounce back status, extremely important against Specs Heatran because Overheat does a shitton of damage without boosting. However if you get the Calm Mind off while mega evolving you're able to tank the Overheat (or Fire Blast / Flamethrower) while Heatran drops to -2 special attack and can safely Recover the next turn while it either switches out or goes for another. Cresselia can't do shit to Mega Sableye so just Mega Evolve and Calm Mind for free. Against Heracross, use Will-O-Wisp and then Recover spam until he misses or switches so you can get a Calm Mind off. Once set up, spam Snarl to win (Recover when/if necessary).

calcs

Heatran: greyed out calcs are against unboosted Sableye which shouldn't happen but are included regardless

• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 120-142 (76.4 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Overheat vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 81-96 (51.5 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• -2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Overheat vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 42-49 (26.7 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
  • so you can see that Sableye can go to +1 on the turn it megas and then recover more damage than Heatran can do due to the special attack drops.

• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 102-121 (64.9 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 67-81 (42.6 - 51.5%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Fire Blast vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 51-61 (32.4 - 38.8%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO
  • If Heatran happens to have Fire Blast instead then you can still go for Calm Mind and then Recover

• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 84-99 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Flamethrower vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 57-67 (36.3 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
• 252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Flamethrower vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 42-51 (26.7 - 32.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
  • Flamethrower is an even better situation for you albeit rare

The biggest threat to Mega Sableye is the risk of burn from Heatran's Fire moves. Snarl does pretty low damage but after you boost up to +6 you 2HKO.

Cresselia:

• 0 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 18-22 (11.4 - 14%) -- possible 8HKO
  
• 0 SpA Cresselia Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Sableye: 38-46 (24.2 - 29.2%) -- 98.6% chance to 4HKO

Yeah Cres isn't doing anything to you. The biggest threat to Mega Sableye is Skill Swap which only has 12% usage.

Heracross: even though it isn't part of the official core that we're fighting I still think it's important to include since he is really common with these guys.

• 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Sableye: 125-155 (79.6 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  
• 252+ Atk burned Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Sableye: 60-75 (38.2 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So if you hit WoW then you can Recover stall until he misses Pin Missile, then when you have the health to spare you can go for a Calm Mind. The burn damage will kill Heracross while you heal. If the Heracross player is clever / hasn't evolved their Heracross yet then they can leave it in non-mega forme to take advantage of Guts which admittedly is kinda scary...

• 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Pin Missile (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Sableye: 84-102 (53.5 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So yeah Sableye is really good at handling these guys imo. Any trouble he runs into is easily handled by teammates [*cough* Talonflame *cough*]. A shame that he needs a specially defensive spread to do it though, physically defensive is overall better on him...

 

[DragonWhale]

Voting time! Put your votes in bold

6tennis : Life Orb Hydreigon
bobochan : Sub Calm Mind Suicune
Benzi : Substitute Mega Sharpedo
ethan06 : Toxic Mamoswine
teamjohto : Belly Jet Azumarill w/Knock Off
NOVED : AV Pursiut Heracross
unfixable : fast Belly Jet Azumarill w/Superpower
Pyritie : Lum Dragon Dance Tyranitar
Lujigy : Bulk Up SpDef Scrafty
cant say : Snarl Mega Sableye

My vote goes to cant say. Sableye can set up calm minds on both of them, especially considering the specs overheat calcs, which is very impressive. Not to mention the ability to not get statused (aside from the burn chance of heatran's moves) makes this choice perfect against the core.

 

[ethan06]

Voting Lujigy, I'm amazed that this particular Scrafty set isn't more popular. It tanks some really crazy stuff and can flat-out win games against a lot of different matchups, especially against defensive teams. I love this mon so much, it's a shame that the one team on which I use it isn't really playable because I changed it too much and it keeps losing </3

e: oh, and it absolutely destroys Heatran + Cress unless Moonblast Cress but who uses that lol

 

[Benzi]

A lot of good noms, I like Azumarill but also the Scrafty and Sableye, it's kind of close. Have to give it to can't say though, I don't see how this core is ever going to muscle through Mega Sableye.