New Signature Items

[Fort Colorcastle]

Duel Gloves sounds awkward and I feel like it should be Dueling Gloves.
Duel gloves gives a heavy impression of Dual Gloves, while Dueling Gloves makes it clear and also grammatically corrects the present participle there.

 

[Dogfish44]

Trash Cloak is v.close to being +2/+2 tbh. I'd rather have all 3 of the Cloaks provide +2/+2 to their stats than just Trash Cloak, for what it's worth.

Tyrantrum and Aurorus are filed under Fossils, so imo we should leave them be.

 

[Frosty]

So update:

• Moth Dust: mechanics may cause trouble (gale)
• Plant Cloak: If Trash Cloak is to be boosted than boost this too. (dogfish44)
• Sandy Cloak: If Trash Cloak is to be boosted than boost this too. (dogfish44)
• Trash Cloak: not powerful enough (geodude6)
• Boxing Gloves: Worse than Spinning Top (Fort)
• Kicking Gear: Worse than Spinning Top (Fort). Kinda bad overall if compared to the others. (deadfox081)
• Spinning Top: Better than the others (Fort). Technician boost may be too good. (deadfox081)
• Solar Ray: Remove full Morning Sun (Maxim)
• Relic Crown: weaksauceish (glacier and others)
• Casteliacone Deluxe: Lickilicky is still outclassed (Maxim and other people). Rollout boost is weird (oh-so-many-people)
• Duel Gloves: No Flinch on Fling pls (oh-so-many people), extra speed is weird (Maxim).
• Empty Shell: ok
• Inversion Charm: ok.
• Royal Honey: Give Filter (geodude6 and others)
• Rain Brooch: Weaksauce (Maxim and others)
• Dark Band: Boost fighting moves (geodude6 and others), Too similar to RC (Gale)

I will remove Empty Shell and Inversion Charm from the list. So they will be implemented as is. But together with the others.


So we will do it in this orders:
1) Moth Dust
2) Cloaks
3) Hitmonitems
4) Solar Ray
5) Relic Crown/CCD/Duel Gloves
6) Royal Honey
7) Rain Brooch
8) Dark Band

Discussion will last 48h (or less if no discussion for 24h) for 1, 4, 6, 7 and 8. 72h (or sooner if no discussion in 48h) for 2, 3 and 5. Sure if by the end of the timer we are still discussing, the discussion will keep going, with people proposing stuff until we reach some kind of agreement.

- - -- -

To begin, We are proposing the following Moth Dust:

Moth Dust: Increase the holder's SPA by two (2) ranks. Combinations involving Gust and a move which doubles the BAP of the combo (e.g. Silver Wind) do not incur Cooldown, instead incurring Sluggish.
Affects: Mothim


This effectively give Mothim:

- 20bap Ghost Move for 12en
- 20bap Flying Move for 12en
- 20bap Bug Move for 12en
- 16bap Dragon Move for 9en


Which seems like a lot, but you gotta remember that we are talking about a mon with the following stats (including item):

100/3/2/5/2/66

And combos are still priority -2 and cause sluggishness, so it still isn't spammable.

Personally I don't mind it. But I might be wrong.

Anyone have anything against this proposal? What would you suggest to fix it?

 

[Fort Colorcastle]

probably off topic

Im still pushing for a name change on duel gloves because its supposed to be a present participle, which would take the form Dueling Gloves

Also it helps with clarity because people think it might be dual gloves.

Oh are we blocking discussion on other items? If so, ignore the above and...

I think it looks nice, but still makes mothim weak to knock off (like virtually all item-reliant mons)

What does mothim have to use under sluggish?
Let's see:

My list (prolly missing a lot but meh)
Some status moves
Gust
Electroweb
Ominous wind
Silver Wind
Infestation
Struggle Bug

Which is a pretty good list given that this is being used in replacement of a cooldown.

I am not against this, in case anyone is confused.

 

[Frosty]

Talk about due(a)l(ing gloves when it is the subject in hand.

So: not now.

 

[Frosty]

Moth stays according to proposal due to lack of discussion. Onwards.

- - - - -

We are proposing the following cloaks:

Plant Cloak: Increase SpA and SpD ranks by 1. Boost the BAP of Grass-Typed moves by 2. Boost BAP reduction of Anticipation and Overcoat by 1.
Affects: Wormadam, Burmy
Sandy Cloak: Increase Atk and Def ranks by 1. Boost the BAP of Ground-Typed moves by 2. Boost BAP reduction of Anticipation and Overcoat by 1.
Affects: Wormadam-S, Burmy
Trash Cloak: Increase Def and SpD ranks by 1. Boost BAP of Steel-Typed moves by 2 and of Gyro Ball by an extra 1. Boost BAP reduction of Anticipation and Overcoat by 1.
Affects: Wormadam-T, Burmy


For reference this results in the following stats:

Plant: 90/2/3/4/5/36
+2 Grass
+1 on Anticipation and Overcoat (that amounts to -5 in SE moves if you are counting).

Sandy: 90/4/5/2/3/36
+2 Ground
+1 on Anticipation and Overcoat (that amounts to -5 in SE moves if you are counting).

Trash: 90/3/4/3/4/36
+2 Steel
+1 Gyro Ball
+1 on Anticipation and Overcoat (that amounts to -5 in SE moves if you are counting).


Geodude pointed out that Rare Candy would boost Trash more (would become 3/5/3/5/36 with +1Steel/Bug). While dogfish44 pointed out that it already gets stats similar to that.

Personally I feel the boost on Anticipation and Overcoat is being underrated. Better Overcoat means that Trash has like 90/3/4.67/3/4.67/36 stats, not counting the extra protection vs SE moves (aka Fire). And offensively I would argue that +2steel and +1gyro ball is better than +1steel/bug, given Wormadam really needs a boost to get through.


For reference, if we were to boost all wormadams by 2 we would get:


Plant: 90/2/3/5/6/36
+2 Grass
+1 on Anticipation and Overcoat (that amounts to -5 in SE moves if you are counting).

Sandy: 90/5/6/2/3/36
+2 Ground
+1 on Anticipation and Overcoat (that amounts to -5 in SE moves if you are counting).

Trash: 90/3/5/3/5/36
+2 Steel
+1 Gyro Ball
+1 on Anticipation and Overcoat (that amounts to -5 in SE moves if you are counting).


Which scares me a little bit. For reference a Flamethrower from Hasty Magmortar would deal (9+3-1.5-2-3)*2.25= 12.375 to Wormadam Plant. Which IMO is kiiiinda ridiculous.

Although maybe the whole "boost anticipation and overcoat" is ridiculous on its own right, I dunno.


Thoughts? (72h)

 

[Fort Colorcastle]

Because frosty looks lonely discussing this on his own, I will filler imput that I agree with making it +2.

The mons need all it can get. While magmortar does virtually nothing with flamethrower, that's coming off of a r5 satk, which most attackers have more than, and Wormadam Plant can't hit back at it at all.

R2 offenses are making Magmortar win the damage race despite being unable to deal much damage. Also why isn't it using Fire Blast? It is +speed, meaning +Acc.
(11+3-1.5-5)*2.25=16.875

^ Reminds me of attacking a camperupt, EXCEPT camerupt has viable offenses.

tl;dr I am in favor of +2


EDIT @ Below: Using Expert belt essentially means +4.5 damage, meaning 21.375.
Suddenly it looks reasonable again.
If you use Magmarizer (Which only gives 1 spa rank to our calcs here) that's (11+3-5)*2.25=20.25
If you have RC, which magmortar does not get but just for the sake of comparison: (11+3+2-5)*2.25=24.75 damage.
All of which uses 100% accurate Fire Blast from Frosty's hasty magmortar.

 

[ZhengTann]

Supporting +2 stats because even if they do make Wormadams comparable to Camerupts, bear in mind that Camerupts were never exactly S-ranked in the first place. Honestly I think if we're running calcs, we should factor in item boosts from both the attacking and defending Pokemon too, so the above two calcs probably should have a +2 from Expert Belt or something similar.

Or we could go the "+5 secondary STAB" option, boosting attacks like STAB Leaf Storm / Earthquake / Gyro Ball so that they hit more like a truck against a favorable match-up.

 

[Dogfish44]

With the Wormadams: I prefer +2 Stats, +2 non-bug type, and +1 to Overcoat, removing the +1 on Anticipation. Makes them solidly bulky and actually able to deal damage. They're still ultimately Wormadam in movepool, but it lets them at least be niche counters to certain mons.

 

[Geodude6]

I agree with fort, although my reasoning is somewhat different. With the cloak items giving +1, Worm-T feels a bit shafted to me, as when taking neutral attacks Rare Candy is slightly superior, and TC is only slightly better when taking Fire attacks by half a BAP. I don't necessarily feel that the other cloaks need to be buffed as they get a +1 boost to 2 stats as opposed to a +2 boost to 1 stat, whereas Rare Candy Worm-T already has a +2 rank boost to 2 stats, so making its sig item give only +1 feels like kind of a letdown.

 

[acidphoenix]

it's not shafting to give something a boost that's near-certainly better than RC, even if you give similar things boosts that are way better than RC (especially considering how much gball boost helps)

anyway, i agree with dogfish, -4 on SE moves with +2 to defenses is enough, we don't need to be TEH ULTIMATE WALL

 

[Frosty]

anyone against df44's proposal?

I mean, I think it is a tad too good, but I suppose Wormadam-S is important for Bug Gym (and the others are still going to be outclassed), so I don't really mind it tbh.

For reference:

Plant: 90/2/3/5/6/36
+2 Grass
+1 on Overcoat (that amounts to -4 in SE moves if you are counting).

Sandy: 90/5/6/2/3/36
+2 Ground
+1 on Overcoat (that amounts to -4 in SE moves if you are counting).

Trash: 90/3/5/3/5/36
+2 Steel
+1 Gyro Ball
+1 on Overcoat (that amounts to -4 in SE moves if you are counting).

 

[Frosty]

OK, so we end with:
Plant Cloak: Increase SpA and SpD ranks by 2. Boost the BAP of Grass-Typed moves by 2. Boost BAP reduction of Overcoat by 1.
Affects: Wormadam, Burmy
Sandy Cloak: Increase Atk and Def ranks by 2. Boost the BAP of Ground-Typed moves by 2. Boost BAP reduction of Overcoat by 1.
Affects: Wormadam-S, Burmy
Trash Cloak: Increase Def and SpD ranks by 2. Boost BAP of Steel-Typed moves by 2 and of Gyro Ball by an extra 1. Boost BAP reduction of Overcoat by 1.
Affects: Wormadam-T, Burmy


#inb4wormadamdomination

- - - - -

Next on line is:

Boxing Gloves: Increase Defense rank by 1. Iron Fist gives an extra 2bap boost to the moves affected by it. Boosts the bap of fighting moves by 1. Confers Iron Fist if holder doesn't get it naturally.
Affects: Tyrogue, Hitmonchan

Kicking Gear: Increase Attack Rank by 1. Reckless gives an extra 2bap boost to the moves affected by it. Boosts the bap of fighting moves by 1. Confers Reckless if holder doesn't get it naturally.
Affects: Tyrogue, Hitmonlee

Spinning Top: Increases Attack and Defense by 1. Technician gives an extra 2bap boost per hit to the moves affected by it. Boosts the bap of fighting moves by 1. Confers Technician if holder doesn't get it naturally.
Affects: Tyrogue, Hitmontop

For reference, with items we get the following stats:

Hitmonlee: 90/6/2/2/4/87
Reckless gives +4 instead of +2
+1bap to fighting moves

Hitmonchan: 90/4/4/2/4/76
Iron Fist gives +4 instead of +2
+1bap to fighting moves

Hitmontop: 90/4/4/2/4/70
Technician gives extra +2
+1bap to fighting moves

Let me address the concerns (with my opinion mind you, nothing is set on stone):

1) Regarding Top>Gloves and Gear: Hitmontop has 17BRT and Hitmonlee/chan have 18BRT. By our (arbitrary but oh well) parameter, the Top should be better.

2) Regarding Kicking Gear: I admit that Boxing Gloves seem sexier, but that is because Hitmonchan is much more useful than Hitmonlee -_-. Still, Gear gives Hitmonlee a whooping 18bap (21bap with STAB) High Jump Kick. And honestly, hitting with STAB is the main reason why you are using Hitmonlee instead of Hitmonchan. Also, the only other option I see is activating Unburden and/or boosting the accuracy of Jump Kick/High Jump Kick and/or removing or lowering recoil damage. Aside from it, there is not much we can do that has some kind of flavor justification. Either way, I accept suggestions here.

3) Regarding Technician boost: well...Hitmonchan gets 8bap priority (just not 8bap fake out) and 12bap coverage, as well as a sexy 13bap Drain Punch to work with. And Conkeldurr has 12bap elemental punches by default, so I doubt that is "too good". Since stat-wise chan and top became extremely similar after items, it is reasonable to compare both. And by doing so I feel that the technician boost is nice and dandy, but nothing out of the wazoo. IMO of course.


thoughts?

 

[YellowAdminSilver]

Rushed opinion, so I might put in some more later. Breakfast calls out to me.

Anyhoo... wrt Kicking Gear: if we're concerned about it being underwhelming, we could switch it to affect "kicking moves" instead of just Reckless. Reckless gives you Jump Kick + HJK, while kicking moves gives you Blaze Kick, Low Kick, Rolling Kick and Mega Kick. Yes, it's a short and shitty list, but it's definitely slightly better while not being over the top and making flavor sense.

Alternatively, how about keeping the Reckless boost while eliminating the crash damage? HJK seems like a great attack until you realize that literally every mon carries Protect, forcing you to dedicate an entire sub for P/E if ordering first.

 

[JJayyFeather]

So if I'm reading that correctly, you're suggesting that Kicking Gear give +2 BAP to (let's call it) all moves with the word "Kick" in it rather than apply a bonus to Reckless. Or alternatively keep its current boost and add that it negates crash damage?

IMO Giving it the +2 BAP to all moves with the word "Kick" in the name definitely is better since it provides additional options, including a coverage move. This definitely gives Hitmonlee more options than just HJK as reliable damage (even though it will always be the strongest option).

WRT Boxing Gloves: I do want to point out the existence of Comet Punch, and that the wording seems to add 2 BAP to each hit of Comet Punch, which is a potential 10 extra BAP, which amounts to an extra 12 BAP. This leads to 22 BAP Comet Punch, which isn't too threatening considering no STAB or chance of SE damage, but it is still alarming.

 

[Fort Colorcastle]

"Isnt too threatening"
"Instant 22 damage before stats"
kek

 

[Geodude6]

Fort Colorcastle: do note that that 22 BAP only happens 12.5% of the time. Though I did not notice the "per hit" part and think that that bit should be removed as as jay pointed out it has the potential to get a tad out of hand.

 

[Dogfish44]

Getting those Hitmon items right was a pain.

Actually, the Hitmons are fairly interesting. Each has one ability to do with Speed and/or Flinching (Unburden, Inner Focus, Steadfast), and then each has an ability which strengthens some moves (Technician, Reckless, Iron Fist). Which made finding similarities to latch onto ruddy difficult.

Boxing Gloves are fine, although I'd reduce it to just a flat +2 on Iron Fist boost. Likewise, I'd do the same with Spinning Top - flat +2 over +2/Hit. Consistent, and puts the difference between the items in the '1 Rank' area, which is much the same as 17 BRT RC and 18 BRT RC.

e: Really that's more of a hint for us to make Triple Kick 3 BAP / Hit, in line with other multi hits. I guess leaving it at +2/Hit should be fine :u

 

[Frosty]

I removed the "per hit part" of Hitmonchan. Dunno why it was there tbh.

The reason why I feel the top should keep the "per hit" part is simple: Triple Kick. Hitmonlee's signature move got boosted to 18bap, Hitmonchan's to 20bap (or drain punch to 13bap which ends up being even a bit better since healing and all) and Hitmontop's best fighting move is still at paltry 12bap. At least with the per hit part it gets to 16bap, which is lovely.

Sure, if you guys feel consistency is better then "I guess...", but just to let you us guys know that the "per hit" stuff was by design specifically for hitmontop in order to give it a reliable good stab like his brothers (or whatever they are).

 

[JJayyFeather]

WRT Hitmontop: Yeah, keeping the "per hit" part makes total sense for Triple Kick, as it is one of its major STABs.

WRT "per hit": Honestly, I was just pointing it out so that everyone was aware of the ridiculous boost to Comet Punch that seemed unintentional. Consistency is wonderful, but Hitmontop definitely needs the "per hit" bonus, so I say we keep it.

 

[Frosty]

wrt Hitmonlee, maybe boost moves with "kick" on it by 2bap and increase their acc by 10 (flat)? I am not sold on removing crash damage. But I suppose it is an option.

thoughts?

 

[FMD]

Keeping the per hit on Spinning Top does not make sense just because it's Hitmontop's major STAB; it makes sense because the ability being boosted, Technician, already says per hit in its description while Iron Fist and Reckless do not. I would much rather the damage boosts be consistent with the abilities they're boosting than with each other.

 

[YellowAdminSilver]

wrt Hitmonlee, maybe boost moves with "kick" on it by 2bap and increase their acc by 10 (flat)? I am not sold on removing crash damage. But I suppose it is an option.

thoughts?

WRT the Accuracy buff, wouldn't Hitmonlee wanna run Jolly already? Jolly gives it 101 Speed, which is a pretty nice jump point that allows it to beat Bold Mega Garde 1v1, and the only other usable nature I can think of might be Impish (for reference, 100/5/3/x/3/87) but that's kinda meh. If we're already running Jolly, that would give us a natural +12% Accuracy, so maybe the additional buff might not even be warranted. For reference, +12% gives you 100% accurate HJK, JK and Blaze Kick.

 

[deadfox081]

Without delving into the ability effects, I wonder a little why Kicking Gear is boosting attack? Clearly we don't worry about just boosting the highest stat with signature items any more and I can't help but think Hitmonlee might appreciate a Defence boost instead. That gives it 90/5/3/2/4/87 base with the item and gives people the option to either run Jolly to patch up accuracy issues or Adamant to boost power. We have definitely done this kind of thing in the past, examples being Tyrantrum and Archeops.

As far as ability effects go I like Frosty's +2 to kicking and +10% acc on them myself.

 

[FMD]

Kicking Gear gives +Atk because Hitmonlee evolves from Tyrogue only if its Atk is higher than its Def, the same reason Boxing Gloves give +Def and Spinning Top gives both +Atk and +Def.

As far as adding an Acc boost or recoil removal/reduction to Kicking Gear, this would leave Boxing Gloves outclassed by both other items. If we plan to buff Kicking Gear, then Boxing Gloves should be similarly boosted.