CAP 21 CAP 21 - Part 9 - Moveset Discussion

[Alfalfa]

To be fair, many of us were trying to stay away from suggesting Earthquake because of how easily it busted up many of our checks. Considering that Jump Kick has literally the same amount of power and still does a lot of damage to Pokemon we want to check our CAP, I do not think it is the best idea to warrant Jump Kick. Specifically, I do not think we should make our CAP capable of breaking through Ferrothorn so easily, especially considering that Ferrothorn is a lot more durable than most Ground and Steel-types that naturally check our CAP. While we do get the trade-off of making Mega Gross and Jirachi stronger checks, cleanly OHKOing Bisharp and putting Excadrill at a high OHKO range is not something we should encourage, especially since we wanted these two mons to check our CAP (and Bisharp especially will not be able to check this CAP particularly well if it can only use Sucker Punch to beat it while at full health).

For reference, here are some calcs regarding Ferrothorn and Excadrill:

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(Note: Yes, this is Rock / Poison and not Rock / Fighting)
252 Atk Mega CAP n Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 338-398 (93.6 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Mega CAP Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 152-180 (43.1 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Drain Punch does not nearly as much to Ferrothorn and Excadrill, but I am not very keen on this CAP being able to cleanly OHKO Bisharp, especially since it can just heal off most damage it takes from Sucker Punch should it survive. Sacred Sword does not hit as hard as Jump Kick, but I personally still think it does too much damage to Ferrothorn and Excadrill, especially considering Excadrill has a very high chance to be OHKOd after a layer of Spikes. I heard mentions of Low Sweep, and while the modest power + utility effect does cripple a lot of our CAP's offensive checks (ie Diggersby, Scarf Terrakion, Excadrill). I honestly prefer Ground coverage, specifically because it fails to OHKO Bisharp, but Low Sweep is is not destructive enough to our CAP's bulkier checks to be ignored.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I am heavily against Drain Punch for a multitude of reasons. First of all, as I have already stated I am against Fighting coverage in general (Does way to much to Bisharp and IMO Ground coverage is more helpful and more pro concept in general.) But, the ability to completely heal of damage pushes the move over the edge, as having coverage against mons that we want to threaten us that also heals us is not a good thing, and it causes Bisharp to become more of a nusiance than a threat, since atleast with other fighting type moves we are put at a semi dangerous range to be revenge killed. I also don't like having this move on the plate if we are going to decide Even if we decide on allowing fighting coverage, I would still like for this move in general to be not allowed on movesets

 

[Korski]

Okay yeah this is a lot but I wanted to be thorough. You can skip to the end for a summary and not miss a whole lot.

vs. Bisharp

• Head Smash: 46 - 55% [98% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 65% w/o])
• ----------
• Fighting-type attack: OHKO

Bisharp is already reliably 2HKO'd by Head Smash, so it's not the end of the world if it's one-shotted by coverage. If CAP gets Fighting coverage, Bisharp will go from a decent check to a shaky revenge killer that relies more on timing than typing (Jolly LO Sucker Punch vs. 4/0 CAP: 60 - 71%).

vs. Excadrill

vs. Sand Rush Sweeper:

• Head Smash: 26 - 31%
• ----------
• Jump Kick: 98 - 116%
• Sky Uppercut: 84 - 98%
  
• Drain Punch: 74 - 87%
  
• Low Kick (60 BP): 57 - 66%
  
• Wood Hammer: 56 - 66%

vs. Bulky Spinner:

• Head Smash: 26 - 31%
• ----------
• Jump Kick: 80 - 94%
• Sky Uppercut: 68 - 80%
  
• Drain Punch: 60 - 71%
  
• Low Kick (60 BP): 48 - 57%
  
• Wood Hammer 48 - 57% [70% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 42% w/o]

We did, in fact, designate Excadrill to be a check, and I'm sure plenty of people would prefer that over being unmercifully countered by Excadrill, which would be the case without Grass or Fighting coverage. I think the low-end 2HKOs here in Wood Hammer and Low Kick are much more agreeable than the 75+ BP Fighting moves, especially Jump Kick, which wipes offensive Excadrill of the face of the earth and fully removes it from the threat list outside of Sand.

vs. Ferrothorn

• Head Smash: 24 - 28%
• ----------
• Jump Kick: 43 - 51% [6% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 0% w/o]
• Low Kick (100 BP): 43 - 51%
• Sky Uppercut: 36 - 43%
• Drain Punch: 32 - 39%

Ferrothorn is going to be a total bastard without Fighting coverage. With either Jump Kick or Low Kick, the CAP can KO Ferrothorn on its third switch-in (provided absolutely zero healing from Leftovers or Leech Seed), which I think is totally fair. Low Kick is beginning to look like the best option now, as it hits the same benchmark as Jump Kick against Ferrothorn without simultaneously crushing Excadrill. This allows them both to remain as decent checks to this CAP but prevents them from being instant and automatic counters for the entire match.

vs. Mega Metagross

• Head Smash: 29 - 35%
• ----------
• Low Kick (120 BP): 32 - 37%
• Jump Kick: 26 - 31%
• Sky Uppercut: 23 - 27%
• Drain Punch: 20 - 23%

No Fighting move will outdamage Head Smash against Mega Metagross, which will remain one of the best switch-ins to this CAP regardless of what we decide.

vs. (SpD) Jirachi

• Head Smash: 31 - 37%
• ----------
• Jump Kick: 28 - 33%
• Sky Uppercut: 24 - 28%
• Drain Punch: 21 - 25%
• Low Kick (20 BP): 6-7%

Like Mega Metagross, Jirachi is unaffected by Fighting coverage and will be an excellent switch-in.

vs. (SpD) Klefki

• Head Smash: 42 - 50% [1% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 0% w/o]
• ----------
• Jump Kick: 38 - 45%
• Sky Uppercut: 32 - 38%
• Drain Punch: 29 - 34%
• Low Kick (20 BP): 8 - 9%

There is no improvement to CAP's matchup against Klefki with the addition of Fighting coverage. The only reason to use a Fighting-type attack against it would be to preserve the PP of Head Smash, and Jump Kick is the only move amongst them that can 3HKO.

vs. (Specs) Magnezone

• Head Smash: 34 - 41%
• ----------
• Jump Kick: 62 - 73%
• Low Kick (100 BP): 62 - 73%
• Sky Uppercut: 52 - 62%
• Drain Punch: 46 - 55% [99% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 64% w/o]

It should be noted that Specs Magnezone can get a guaranteed OHKO on the Mega CAP with Flash Cannon and that Scarf Magnezone can not do the same (62 - 73%). No Fighting move can OHKO Magnezone, but they can all 2HKO, and once again there is no difference between Jump Kick and Low Kick, so Low Kick is still the best option, in my opinion.

vs. Heatran

• Head Smash: 62 - 74%
• ----------
• Low Kick (120 BP): 66 - 78%
• Jump Kick: 56 - 65% [100% chance to 2HKO]
• Sky Uppercut: 47 - 56% [100% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 22% w/o]
• Drain Punch: 42 - 49% [22% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 0% w/o]

Heatran is already 2HKO'd by Head Smash, and Low Kick does roughly equivalent damage, making it a good way to save PP and avoid missing while achieving the same results. Sky Uppercut and Drain Punch would be inferior options here, potentially not even reaching a 2HKO. This is a strange matchup, as Heatran fears switching into a 2HKO and CAP fears switching into Flash Cannon or tanking a Lava Plume due to the Burn chance. In any case, Fighting coverage in the form of Low Kick or Jump Kick here would make it marginally easier for the CAP to beat something it already beats.

vs. Hippowdon

• Head Smash: 21- 25%
• Gunk Shot: 17 - 20%
• ----------
• Wood Hammer: 45 - 53% [33% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 0% (technically 0.4%) w/o]
• Low Kick (120 BP): 23 - 27%
• Jump Kick: 19 - 22%
• Sky Uppercut: 16 - 19%
• Drain Punch: 14 - 17%

Hippowdon doesn't care about anything except Wood Hammer, so Fighting coverage does not change this matchup one bit.

vs. (Tank) Garchomp

• Head Smash: 24 - 29%
• Gunk Shot: 19 - 23%
• ----------
• Wood Hammer: 26 - 30%
• Jump Kick: 21 - 25%
• Sky Uppercut: 18 - 22%
• Low Kick (80 BP): 17 - 20%
• Drain Punch: 16 - 19%

Garchomp is unfazed by all of our attacks currently under consideration, as a 4HKO with Wood Hammer is the best the CAP can do. Jump Kick, Sky Uppercut, and Low Kick are all functionally the same, scoring an unimpressive 5HKO on TankChomp. Against offensive Garchomp, Head Smash, Wood Hammer, and Jump Kick can each 3HKO, which isn't much of an improvement.

vs. Tyranitar

vs. ScarfTar

• Head Smash: 68 - 80%
• Gunk Shot: 27 - 32%
• ----------
• Low Kick (120 BP): OHKO
• Jump Kick: OHKO
• Sky Uppercut: OHKO
• Drain Punch: 91 - 108% [100% chance to OHKO w/SR, 44% w/o]
• Wood Hammer: 73 - 86%

vs. 248/252+ Tyranitar

• Head Smash: 42 - 50% [28% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 0% w/o]
• Gunk Shot: 17 - 20%
• ----------
• Low Kick (120 BP): 90 - 107% [100% chance to OHKO w/SR, 44% w/o]
• Jump Kick: 75 - 90% [13% chance to OHKO w/SR, 0% w/o]
• Sky Uppercut: 65 - 76%
• Drain Punch: 57 - 67%
• Wood Hammer: 45 - 54% [92% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 1% w/o]

Tyranitar is a very interesting case. Against ScarfTar, there is a negligible difference among the four Fighting-type attacks, all of which can reliably OHKO. However, the issue is that Tyranitar will only ever lose this matchup if it switches into a Fighting-type move, since Earthquake is a OHKO on the CAP and the Scarf allows it to go first. Then we have physically defensive Tyranitar, which receives probably the most significant increase in damage that these Fighting-type moves can offer. It is noteworthy that support Tyranitar, which also commonly runs Earthquake, cannot be 2HKO'd by Head Smash or Wood Hammer (technically a 1% chance) unless Stealth Rock is up. So, in a one-on-one situation, both Tyranitar sets can actually beat the CAP if it is not running Low Kick specifically, and even then, support Tyranitar has a 56% chance of winning. I personally don't mind being able to OHKO any Tyranitar with Fighting coverage, but that's just my opinion.

vs. Mega Lopunny

• Head Smash: 49 - 58% [100% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 94% w/o]
• Gunk Shot: 78 - 92%
• ----------
• Jump Kick: 87 - 103% [50% chance to OHKO w/SR, 19% w/o]
• Sky Uppercut: 75 - 88%
• Drain Punch: 66 - 77%
• Low Kick (60 BP): 52 - 62%
• Wood Hammer: 52 - 62%

So here is the first of two examples I could find where Jump Kick is more desirable than Low Kick. This one's tricky, though, as Fake Out (12 - 14%) + High Jump Kick (79 - 93%) = 91 - 107%, meaning there's a likelihood the CAP won't even get a chance to hit Mega Lopunny before it's KO'd, rendering our coverage moot. Mega Lopunny does not have the defensive backbone to switch into any of the CAP's attacks more than once, so more often than not it will be forcing out the CAP in a revenge-killer capacity and it'll just be a fact of life that Mega Lopunny beats our CAP when it runs Fake Out.

vs. Chansey

• Head Smash: 52 - 61%
• Gunk Shot: 42 - 49% [82% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 3HKO w/o]
• ----------
• Jump Kick: 46 - 55%
• Sky Uppercut: 40 - 47%
• Drain Punch: 35 - 41%
• Low Kick (60 BP): 28 - 33%

This is the second and strongest example where Jump Kick is better than Low Kick as a coverage move. As it stands, Chansey can stall out most of CAP's PP with Soft-Boiled, which has the same PP as both of the CAP's STABs combined. While Jump Kick does not do quite as much damage as Head Smash, it does do enough damage to negate Chansey's attempts at healing while adding an additional 16 PP to the moveset and saving CAP the grief of wiping out its STABs trying to take Chansey down. None of the other Fighting-type moves can threaten Chansey in this way, which Low Kick actually being the worst of the four.

Out of the four Fighting-type coverage options under consideration (Jump Kick, Sky Uppercut/Sacred Sword, Drain Punch, and Low Kick), I believe that Low Kick is the most balanced due to the way its variable base power interacts with the Pokemon we intend to target with this coverage move. It primarily helps to alleviate the stress of potentially missing with Head Smash or depleting Head Smash's PP against stubborn defensive opponents. In terms of damage, it is typically equivalent to Wood Hammer, even in cases where Low Kick is super-effective and Wood Hammer is neutral, like against Excadrill, for example. Unlike Jump Kick, Low Kick doesn't scratch anything off the threats list entirely besides Bisharp, which is a nuanced matchup regardless of which Fighting move we go with, should we go with any at all. Low Kick still allows the majority of Steels and Grounds to switch into the CAP 2-5 times, as opposed to indefinitely, which would be a likely result of foregoing Fighting coverage.

Sky Uppercut is the baby bear of the family, not too strong, not too weak. I don't like the healing effect of Drain Punch here when we have both Regenerator and Magic Guard buttressing against damage taken, and it's functionality as a coverage move is actually pretty bad with such low base power.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

After reading through Korski calculations, I really like the case he made for Low Kick. The OHKO on Bisharp is just something that we need to take a loss on if we want a neutral hit on all Steels, which I've said countless times is beneficial to our concept. Ferrothorn is badly hurt but not 2HKO'd by Low Kick (which is good, as Ferrothorn has a mildly difficult time healing against or stalling CAP21 because of the Leech Seed immunity), Excadrill isn't OHKO'd because of its light weight, and Mega Metagross is at least roughed up by it. Low Kick has my full support, as do Jump Kick and Drain Punch.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

Okay yeah this is a lot but I wanted to be thorough. You can skip to the end for a summary and not miss a whole lot.

vs. Bisharp

• Head Smash: 46 - 55% [98% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 65% w/o])
• ----------
• Fighting-type attack: OHKO

Bisharp is already reliably 2HKO'd by Head Smash, so it's not the end of the world if it's one-shotted by coverage. If CAP gets Fighting coverage, Bisharp will go from a decent check to a shaky revenge killer that relies more on timing than typing (Jolly LO Sucker Punch vs. 4/0 CAP: 60 - 71%).

vs. Excadrill

vs. Sand Rush Sweeper:

• Head Smash: 26 - 31%
• ----------
• Jump Kick: 98 - 116%
• Sky Uppercut: 84 - 98%
  
• Drain Punch: 74 - 87%
  
• Low Kick (60 BP): 57 - 66%
  
• Wood Hammer: 56 - 66%

vs. Bulky Spinner:

• Head Smash: 26 - 31%
• ----------
• Jump Kick: 80 - 94%
• Sky Uppercut: 68 - 80%
  
• Drain Punch: 60 - 71%
  
• Low Kick (60 BP): 48 - 57%
  
• Wood Hammer 48 - 57% [70% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 42% w/o]

We did, in fact, designate Excadrill to be a check, and I'm sure plenty of people would prefer that over being unmercifully countered by Excadrill, which would be the case without Grass or Fighting coverage. I think the low-end 2HKOs here in Wood Hammer and Low Kick are much more agreeable than the 75+ BP Fighting moves, especially Jump Kick, which wipes offensive Excadrill of the face of the earth and fully removes it from the threat list outside of Sand.

vs. Ferrothorn

• Head Smash: 24 - 28%
• ----------
• Jump Kick: 43 - 51% [6% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 0% w/o]
• Low Kick (100 BP): 43 - 51%
• Sky Uppercut: 36 - 43%
• Drain Punch: 32 - 39%

Ferrothorn is going to be a total bastard without Fighting coverage. With either Jump Kick or Low Kick, the CAP can KO Ferrothorn on its third switch-in (provided absolutely zero healing from Leftovers or Leech Seed), which I think is totally fair. Low Kick is beginning to look like the best option now, as it hits the same benchmark as Jump Kick against Ferrothorn without simultaneously crushing Excadrill. This allows them both to remain as decent checks to this CAP but prevents them from being instant and automatic counters for the entire match.

vs. Mega Metagross

• Head Smash: 29 - 35%
• ----------
• Low Kick (120 BP): 32 - 37%
• Jump Kick: 26 - 31%
• Sky Uppercut: 23 - 27%
• Drain Punch: 20 - 23%

No Fighting move will outdamage Head Smash against Mega Metagross, which will remain one of the best switch-ins to this CAP regardless of what we decide.

vs. (SpD) Jirachi

• Head Smash: 31 - 37%
• ----------
• Jump Kick: 28 - 33%
• Sky Uppercut: 24 - 28%
• Drain Punch: 21 - 25%
• Low Kick (20 BP): 6-7%

Like Mega Metagross, Jirachi is unaffected by Fighting coverage and will be an excellent switch-in.

vs. (SpD) Klefki

• Head Smash: 42 - 50% [1% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 0% w/o]
• ----------
• Jump Kick: 38 - 45%
• Sky Uppercut: 32 - 38%
• Drain Punch: 29 - 34%
• Low Kick (20 BP): 8 - 9%

There is no improvement to CAP's matchup against Klefki with the addition of Fighting coverage. The only reason to use a Fighting-type attack against it would be to preserve the PP of Head Smash, and Jump Kick is the only move amongst them that can 3HKO.

vs. (Specs) Magnezone

• Head Smash: 34 - 41%
• ----------
• Jump Kick: 62 - 73%
• Low Kick (100 BP): 62 - 73%
• Sky Uppercut: 52 - 62%
• Drain Punch: 46 - 55% [99% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 64% w/o]

It should be noted that Specs Magnezone can get a guaranteed OHKO on the Mega CAP with Flash Cannon and that Scarf Magnezone can not do the same (62 - 73%). No Fighting move can OHKO Magnezone, but they can all 2HKO, and once again there is no difference between Jump Kick and Low Kick, so Low Kick is still the best option, in my opinion.

vs. Heatran

• Head Smash: 62 - 74%
• ----------
• Low Kick (120 BP): 66 - 78%
• Jump Kick: 56 - 65% [100% chance to 2HKO]
• Sky Uppercut: 47 - 56% [100% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 22% w/o]
• Drain Punch: 42 - 49% [22% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 0% w/o]

Heatran is already 2HKO'd by Head Smash, and Low Kick does roughly equivalent damage, making it a good way to save PP and avoid missing while achieving the same results. Sky Uppercut and Drain Punch would be inferior options here, potentially not even reaching a 2HKO. This is a strange matchup, as Heatran fears switching into a 2HKO and CAP fears switching into Flash Cannon or tanking a Lava Plume due to the Burn chance. In any case, Fighting coverage in the form of Low Kick or Jump Kick here would make it marginally easier for the CAP to beat something it already beats.

vs. Hippowdon

• Head Smash: 21- 25%
• Gunk Shot: 17 - 20%
• ----------
• Wood Hammer: 45 - 53% [33% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 0% (technically 0.4%) w/o]
• Low Kick (120 BP): 23 - 27%
• Jump Kick: 19 - 22%
• Sky Uppercut: 16 - 19%
• Drain Punch: 14 - 17%

Hippowdon doesn't care about anything except Wood Hammer, so Fighting coverage does not change this matchup one bit.

vs. (Tank) Garchomp

• Head Smash: 24 - 29%
• Gunk Shot: 19 - 23%
• ----------
• Wood Hammer: 26 - 30%
• Jump Kick: 21 - 25%
• Sky Uppercut: 18 - 22%
• Low Kick (80 BP): 17 - 20%
• Drain Punch: 16 - 19%

Garchomp is unfazed by all of our attacks currently under consideration, as a 4HKO with Wood Hammer is the best the CAP can do. Jump Kick, Sky Uppercut, and Low Kick are all functionally the same, scoring an unimpressive 5HKO on TankChomp. Against offensive Garchomp, Head Smash, Wood Hammer, and Jump Kick can each 3HKO, which isn't much of an improvement.

vs. Tyranitar

vs. ScarfTar

• Head Smash: 68 - 80%
• Gunk Shot: 27 - 32%
• ----------
• Low Kick (120 BP): OHKO
• Jump Kick: OHKO
• Sky Uppercut: OHKO
• Drain Punch: 91 - 108% [100% chance to OHKO w/SR, 44% w/o]
• Wood Hammer: 73 - 86%

vs. 248/252+ Tyranitar

• Head Smash: 42 - 50% [28% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 0% w/o]
• Gunk Shot: 17 - 20%
• ----------
• Low Kick (120 BP): 90 - 107% [100% chance to OHKO w/SR, 44% w/o]
• Jump Kick: 75 - 90% [13% chance to OHKO w/SR, 0% w/o]
• Sky Uppercut: 65 - 76%
• Drain Punch: 57 - 67%
• Wood Hammer: 45 - 54% [92% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 1% w/o]

Tyranitar is a very interesting case. Against ScarfTar, there is a negligible difference among the four Fighting-type attacks, all of which can reliably OHKO. However, the issue is that Tyranitar will only ever lose this matchup if it switches into a Fighting-type move, since Earthquake is a OHKO on the CAP and the Scarf allows it to go first. Then we have physically defensive Tyranitar, which receives probably the most significant increase in damage that these Fighting-type moves can offer. It is noteworthy that support Tyranitar, which also commonly runs Earthquake, cannot be 2HKO'd by Head Smash or Wood Hammer (technically a 1% chance) unless Stealth Rock is up. So, in a one-on-one situation, both Tyranitar sets can actually beat the CAP if it is not running Low Kick specifically, and even then, support Tyranitar has a 56% chance of winning. I personally don't mind being able to OHKO any Tyranitar with Fighting coverage, but that's just my opinion.

vs. Mega Lopunny

• Head Smash: 49 - 58% [100% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 94% w/o]
• Gunk Shot: 78 - 92%
• ----------
• Jump Kick: 87 - 103% [50% chance to OHKO w/SR, 19% w/o]
• Sky Uppercut: 75 - 88%
• Drain Punch: 66 - 77%
• Low Kick (60 BP): 52 - 62%
• Wood Hammer: 52 - 62%

So here is the first of two examples I could find where Jump Kick is more desirable than Low Kick. This one's tricky, though, as Fake Out (12 - 14%) + High Jump Kick (79 - 93%) = 91 - 107%, meaning there's a likelihood the CAP won't even get a chance to hit Mega Lopunny before it's KO'd, rendering our coverage moot. Mega Lopunny does not have the defensive backbone to switch into any of the CAP's attacks more than once, so more often than not it will be forcing out the CAP in a revenge-killer capacity and it'll just be a fact of life that Mega Lopunny beats our CAP when it runs Fake Out.

vs. Chansey

• Head Smash: 52 - 61%
• Gunk Shot: 42 - 49% [82% chance to 2HKO w/SR, 3HKO w/o]
• ----------
• Jump Kick: 46 - 55%
• Sky Uppercut: 40 - 47%
• Drain Punch: 35 - 41%
• Low Kick (60 BP): 28 - 33%

This is the second and strongest example where Jump Kick is better than Low Kick as a coverage move. As it stands, Chansey can stall out most of CAP's PP with Soft-Boiled, which has the same PP as both of the CAP's STABs combined. While Jump Kick does not do quite as much damage as Head Smash, it does do enough damage to negate Chansey's attempts at healing while adding an additional 16 PP to the moveset and saving CAP the grief of wiping out its STABs trying to take Chansey down. None of the other Fighting-type moves can threaten Chansey in this way, which Low Kick actually being the worst of the four.

Out of the four Fighting-type coverage options under consideration (Jump Kick, Sky Uppercut/Sacred Sword, Drain Punch, and Low Kick), I believe that Low Kick is the most balanced due to the way its variable base power interacts with the Pokemon we intend to target with this coverage move. It primarily helps to alleviate the stress of potentially missing with Head Smash or depleting Head Smash's PP against stubborn defensive opponents. In terms of damage, it is typically equivalent to Wood Hammer, even in cases where Low Kick is super-effective and Wood Hammer is neutral, like against Excadrill, for example. Unlike Jump Kick, Low Kick doesn't scratch anything off the threats list entirely besides Bisharp, which is a nuanced matchup regardless of which Fighting move we go with, should we go with any at all. Low Kick still allows the majority of Steels and Grounds to switch into the CAP 2-5 times, as opposed to indefinitely, which would be a likely result of foregoing Fighting coverage.

Sky Uppercut is the baby bear of the family, not too strong, not too weak. I don't like the healing effect of Drain Punch here when we have both Regenerator and Magic Guard buttressing against damage taken, and it's functionality as a coverage move is actually pretty bad with such low base power.

These calculations seem pretty enlightening, for lack of a better word I can think of at the moment. Low Kick does sound like a pretty good idea, because I think we need to have a coverage move that can at least hit neutrally on either Ground or Steel types, but probably more of a priority being Steel types.

 

[Elite Lord Sigma]

If for no other reason than forgetting that it was a possibility, Low Kick seems like a solid option for Fighting coverage to me after reading through Korski's post. I still don't think that Drain Punch is a good idea or necessary considering that Regenerator is likely the most common ability for the base form, but Jump Kick seems to be acceptable.

 

[snake]

I support Low Kick. Jump Kick seems fine, but it hits Excadrill a little too hard imo, and it's tragic when it misses. Low Kick on the other hand makes it wary to switch in, and it hits just a tiny bit harder than Wood Hammer, so it doesn't really mess with anything else we've discussed so far.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

Alright, so far the moves with the most support are as follows:

Head Smash
Gunk Shot
Wood Hammer
Low Kick
U-turn
Stealth Rock

Nuzzle? A lot of people have supported this move, and the dissenters mostly questioned it over thunder wave.

Toxic Spikes? This move hasn't been talked about nearly as much as the others, but when mentioned it is usually been fairly positive, or at least far more positive than Spikes.

So then, if we are to assume that CAP learns these moves... how are we going to make sets with these moves? It seems a lot of people support Wood Hammer for coverage, a lot of people support Low Kick for coverage, and the other moves are for utility. Clearly we cannot fit all of these moves on a single set. I don't want to narrow our scope too much, but I also feel that current discussion is becoming more focused, so it seems like the natural time to bunker down and figure out these sets. To me, it seems like these moves allow for two different sets; an all-out-attacker with STABs and coverage (and maybe U-turn in place of one coverage option), and a set with three attacks and one utility option. If this is the case, how exactly do we want these sets to look? Feel free to submit new sets or edit past ones in order to propose our new sets, which will hopefully quite soon be finalized.

Also, keep in mind that Other Options are still something I want to fill in for this CAP. Other Options, or OO, are moves that have useful effects and can be competitively used to one's advantage but might be too niche compared to main set options. It is possible that some of the bold moves above might be better off in OO than on a set. But there's probably some other useful moves that haven't been fully discussed yet than can go in OO as well. Overall, I just want to remind everyone that I want to include OO into the final results of this stage.

So, I want people to focus on organizing the above bold moves into sets. We do have some existing sets that might serve as great templates for this goal with just a few edits. If you want to submit sets with new moves that you think can be a great benefit to this CAP and its end goal, please feel free to do so as well. Lastly, if you feel that any of the above moves have no place on this CAP, please make your last arguments now.

 

[Zephias]

Before starting with this post I'd like to comment that this is my first time making a post on a non-flavor CAP discussion. I apologise in advance for any mistakes I might make in this post.

Now that the TL has mentioned OOs I'd like to say I believe Nuzzle and Thunder Wave are moves that might belong on said OO category.

Nuzzle is mainly a stat-spread move that bypasses abilities that block Thunder Wave, but our secondary ability in Mold Breaker would allow the same thing with Thunder Wave.

Generally looking at the stats of our CAP and our threat list I feel the default answer to most things will be either attack directly or switch/u-turn to make use of Regenerator in base forme. Status spreading, although great for utility, seems more like a secondary goal for our CAP, or even a tertiary one behind taking down things that threaten teammates and/or pivoting in and out to create opportunities.

Thus Nuzzle, which bypasses the Magic line abilities but makes contact, and TWave which doesn't bypass said abilities by itself but doesn't make contact seem to fit more as OOs to replace Stealth Rock or other utility options in other sets, or maybe U-Turn on a Mold Breaker base forme.

 

[sparktrain]

I suppose I'll put down some edits for the All-Out Attacker set based on our discussion; it's definitely shaping up to be one of the more viable options we have.

Name: All-Out Attacker
Move 1: Head Smash
Move 2: Gunk Shot
Move 3: Wood Hammer / U-turn
Move 4: Jump Kick Low Kick / U-turn
Ability: Regenerator -> Magic Guard
Item: Mega Stone
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

The first edit is replacing Jump Kick with Low Kick. I'm actually a pretty big fan of how nicely Low Kick fits with the Pokemon we're intending to threaten compared to the other Fighting-type moves we've been considering so far. Yeah, Bisharp gets OHKOed, but that's honestly something we're just going to need to accept at this point if we're legitimately trying to get a decent neutral / SE hit on a majority of Steel-types (which I'm still supporting). Bisharp was never the most reliable of answers to Mega Crucibelle to begin with; it can't even switch into Head Smash very safely anyway:

252 Atk Mega CAP 21 Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 126-149 (46.3 - 54.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Which means that we're really effectively losing a shaky check in this sense. Korski's other calcs have shown the usefulness of Low Kick versus its other potential targets and explained its merits pretty well, so I'm fully onboard with this. The other main edit I put is slashing U-turn as an option in the 3rd and 4th moveslots (STABs are pretty much non-negotiable). Forgoing a coverage move in the interest of preserving offensive momentum for the team is certainly going to be valuable, and will make Crucibelle that much more potent when paired with, say, Magnezone to remove opposing Steel-types so that Crucibelle may more freely take advantage of its STABs. Even with powerful STABs and some decent coverage, Crucibelle is definitely not going to be breaking through everything on its own, and U-turn is excellent for allowing its teammates to handle threats that it won't be able to break. This will allow for its STABs to be utilized to their fullest, and hence, exemplify the strengths of the typing, which I find to be very pro-concept.

--

The other main set I'm looking at at the moment is the Offensive Utility set (3 Attacks + Utility Move, offensive EV spread), and it's actually not looking too bad as is; it probably just needs to be slightly altered to fit with the more highly supported coverage options. Stealth Rock should probably remain the first slash; it really hasn't received a ton of opposition at all, and Crucibelle will make for a pretty good user of the move, as it'll certainly find opportunities to set up the hazard in the context of this set through its offensive presence and forced switches. As far as the Nuzzle / Thunder Wave discussion goes, I'm definitely a fan of keeping a paralysis move, specifically Nuzzle, on the set. The advantages of Nuzzle over Thunder Wave are subtle, but rather clear-cut. Bypassing Taunt won't come into play a ton, if at all (most Taunters are either 1. Slower than Crucibelle or 2. Have a bad matchup against it regardless), but bypassing Magic Bounce is at least somewhat relevant when it comes to analyzing risk. Bouncing Thunder Wave requires a pretty high-risk play on the Magic Bounce user's part, since there's a large threat of them simply switching in and being heavily damaged by Crucibelle's STAB, but the fact is that using a status move of any sort does create a risk for Crucibelle as well simply by the Magic Bounce Pokemon being present on the opposing team. The last thing it needs is to have its own Thunder Wave bounced back and itself crippled. Mold Breaker helps Thunder Wave with this, but this requires Crucibelle to be in base forme AND run Mold Breaker over Regenerator. Nuzzle remedies this; its only real drawback is making contact, and residual damage caused by Iron Barbs / Rocky Helmet are mitigated by Regenerator / Magic Guard. Maybe I'm reading into this a bit too much, but Nuzzle is basically a slightly lower-risk option over Thunder Wave, and keep in mind this is already going to be somewhat of a lesser option compared to its other attacking / support options. As far as other supporting options go, Toxic Spikes I could put my support behind, as in I'd be okay with it, but it's likely going to have trouble justifying running it over its other moves in the context of an offensively-oriented utility set.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

Alright, judging from the discussion, our mega sets seem to be as follows:

Name: All-Out Attacker
Move 1: Head Smash
Move 2: Gunk Shot
Move 3: Wood Hammer / U-turn
Move 4: Low Kick / U-turn
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Crucibellite
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Name: Offensive Utility
Move 1: Head Smash
Move 2: Gunk Shot
Move 3: U-turn / Low Kick / Wood Hammer
Move 4: Stealth Rock / Nuzzle (maybe OO, I can see this being moved)
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Crucibellite
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

People are now free to debate slash order. If you feel any moves should be added or removed, then this is your last chance to speak. As of this moment, Toxic Spikes and Thunder Wave are both in my OO list. Proposing additional OO is allowed as well.

We also need to think of what we want the base form's set(s) to be. Early on, a Choice Scarf set was very popular. Would this mimic the All-Out Attacker set but with a different item, or should the slashes be different (I'd imagine U-turn would be more important on a Scarf set, though I feel there's a chance for U-turn to become a primary slash on AOA anyway). Is there anything else we want the base set to do?

Consider this your 48 hour warning until the closure of this thread. I might extend the deadline a bit if we get some really good discussion, but I don't want to be sitting here wasting time if no one has anything new to add.

 

[snake]

I like the Coil set (actually I was in the middle of writing up a post for Bulk Up...), but there's just one problem. I don't have my calculator right now (on mobile, might have time in a little bit to update with calcs). Coil might be a great option for base form, but it might be over the top for the Mega Forme. Even though it's a Base form set, it might cause a Mega set to be too powerful. Again, I'll post calcs in a little bit, but that's my thought process when I see that set.

 

[snake]

Coil Mega Crucibelle with +1 Attack and +1 Defense (and +1 Accuracy).
This thing is scary:

+1 252 Atk Mega CAP 21 Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 304-358 (84.2 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. +1 4 HP / 0 Def Mega CAP 21: 811-957 (229 - 270.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Almost kills Exca with Low Kick on the switch in. Same with Wood Hammer.

+1 252 Atk Mega CAP 21 Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 158-186 (52.4 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. +1 4 HP / 0 Def Mega CAP 21: 360-426 (101.6 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. +1 4 HP / 0 Def Mega CAP 21: 162-192 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 47.3% chance to 2HKO
Mega Metagross turns from solid counter into not being able to live two Low Kicks.
If it switches into one, it can't kill with Bullet Punch with +1 Defense.

+1 252 Atk Mega CAP 21 Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 226-266 (64.2 - 75.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. +1 4 HP / 0 Def Mega CAP 21: 260-308 (73.4 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Ferrothorn doesn't really work as a counter either...

+1 252 Atk Mega CAP 21 Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 501-589 (78 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Kills the pink blob even easier.

I could post a wall of calcs if I need to, but my point is that Coil, while on base forme might be ok, gives Mega Crucibelle a big boost, and makes its STAB moves so that they can't miss. Also, if it gets +2 (somehow), it's going just hit and take hits better. IMO, no Coil, solely because the Mega forme as access to it as well.

 

[SlickHippo99]

The Scarf set shows the most promise to me in terms of base form sets, as it would allow Crucibelle to take advantage of new speed to surprise opponents expecting the mega. Additionally, Crucibelle could take advantage of the Regen + U-turn combo to be a speedy hit-and-run attacker that is difficult to bring down. I assume it will get Stone Edge so it doesn't have to rely on Head Smash for rock STAB in base form. The moveset I think should be almost identical to the All-Out-Attacker set, but I would like to suggest a new wrinkle. Trick or Switcheroo. Not sure how pro-concept it is, but it is definitely an interesting option to cripple defensive answers like Skarm and Ferrothorn. The set would look something like this:

Name: Base Form Scarf
Move 1: Stone Edge
Move 2: Gunk Shot
Move 3: U-turn / Wood Hammer
Move 4: Trick or Switcheroo / Low Kick
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Choice Scarf
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

I put it in over Low Kick since that seems suboptimal to be locked into, and while Trick/Switcheroo fails to deal with stuff like Excadrill, it nabs Ferrothorn which Crucibelle currently is incapable of doing. It can also surprise miscellaneous mons that expect it to be mega.

Another set that might be cool is a setup sweeper with Rock Polish with Life Orb to deal more damage or some type resist berry to aid setup, though Rock Polish might be problematic on the mega. Choice Band might be something to consider for a set, but I could see that more as something for OO. I feel like Mold Breaker should be explored more as I don't really see much use for it at the moment aside from bypassing Sturdy or setting up rocks on the two people that rely on Espeon for hazard prevention. Regenerator will likely be the better ability 9 times out of 10, but I feel like Mold Breaker should be used in some way.

Please forgive me if this is anti-concept in any way or has previously been brought up and rejected as is this is my first post in relation to this CAP, or any CAP actually.

 

[vyomov]

Coil Mega Crucibelle with +1 Attack and +1 Defense (and +1 Accuracy).
This thing is scary:

+1 252 Atk Mega CAP 21 Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 304-358 (84.2 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. +1 4 HP / 0 Def Mega CAP 21: 811-957 (229 - 270.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Almost kills Exca with Low Kick on the switch in. Same with Wood Hammer.

+1 252 Atk Mega CAP 21 Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 158-186 (52.4 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. +1 4 HP / 0 Def Mega CAP 21: 360-426 (101.6 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Bullet Punch vs. +1 4 HP / 0 Def Mega CAP 21: 162-192 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 47.3% chance to 2HKO
Mega Metagross turns from solid counter into not being able to live two Low Kicks.

The main problem with both those calcs is that they require Mega Crucibelle to actually boost, then 2HKO Excadrill or Metagross, all while both of them can easily OHKO Mega Crucibelle, even with the defense boost offered by Coil; the only way this scenario would work is if Excadrill or M-Meta switch into a +1 Mega Crucibelle, which is unrealistic because no reasonable opponent would let Mega Crucibelle boost up and THEN switch in Excadrill or M-Meta.

Most of the top threats in the current OU Metagame have some form of boosting (just looking at S-Rank alone, three out of 4 have boosting moves and use them regularly, and this applies to the lower ranks as well), and Coil helps carve a niche for the base form without affecting our counters for the Mega Form sufficiently, especially since a Coil + 3 Attacks set foregoes key coverage for the Mega Form.

 

[Korski]

Nuzzle? A lot of people have supported this move and the dissenters mostly questioned it over Thunder Wave.

Sure, Nuzzle is better than Thunder Wave, better in almost every way, but that's just the nature of the two moves themselves. That’s not what the Nuzzle debate is about, as far as I can tell. DetroitLolcat asked a pretty good series of questions earlier in the thread that haven’t really been answered.

Nuzzle is a move that I just don’t get. Is throwing out paralysis really that useful?

MegaCrucibelle is already faster than almost everything. Pretty much anything that is faster than the CAP can be OHKO’d switching in, and pretty much anything that is 2HKO’d is already slower.

More importantly, is it something we want? If we have access to Stealth Rock and Toxic, will people even use Nuzzle?

Looking at some of CAP’s best switch-ins, Garchomp, Hippowdon, Landorus-T, Gliscor, and Excadrill would all cherish a Nuzzle set, as it gives them all free switch-ins to an already winning matchup once the CAP starts throwing Nuzzles around (better than switching into powerful neutral-or-better attacks). You also can’t paralyze Magnezone, Rotom-W, or Mega Manectric. You can paralyze (Mega)Slowbro, Ferrothorn and Skarmory, but they don’t really mind it 75% of the time. You can paralyze Scizor, but it has priority to bypass it and takes big damage from Head Smash. You can paralyze Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie, a popular argument, but why not just 2HKO the former (which doesn’t care about Paralysis), and OHKO the latter (which CAP outspeeds anyway)? Most other opponents might be relieved to take a Nuzzle, as Crucibelle misses quite a few would-be 2HKOs by leading with Nuzzle instead of one of its STABs. Is Paralysis, or rather, an attempt to spread Paralysis, particularly useful to this Pokemon? Perhaps the opposite is true. The only scenario I can think of where I’d want to use Nuzzle would be if the CAP is neutered by Burn and the best it can do is paralyze something before getting sacked.

I couldn’t imagine [Nuzzle] being that useful unless we really gimped our coverage and support options. Sure it lets us paralyze Magic Bouncers, but Sableye really doesn’t care and Espeon/Mega Dance just get killed anyway. It’s a better Thunder Wave no doubt, but I just don’t get why paralysis is the flavor of the day on CAP21.

Nuzzle was proposed as a way to make Steel-types not get a free switch-in, to not hit Steel-types super effectively, and to provide relatively stable utility. Toxic may seem like a more logical status option, but it does not affect Steel-types at all, which I think have rightfully received a lot of needed attention.

I guess if we have Fighting coverage now (and U-turn), we don’t really need Nuzzle in quite the same way as was originally supported. And even if we didn’t have a Fighting move, it wouldn’t fix Nuzzle’s problem with poor opportunity cost and being a generally disadvantageous move choice 90% of the time. Chunking or KOing something is better long-term utility than throwing weak Paralysis moves around that nothing really bats an eye at. The only Pokemon this move really messes with are Jirachi and Mega Metagross, which is nice I guess (Megagross often runs Bullet Punch, though), but I don’t think that’s enough to make Nuzzle a required option. I have no problem with Nuzzle being allowed as OO (“OO are moves that have useful effects and can be competitively used to one’s advantage but might be too niche compared to main set options” - HeaLnDeal), but it certainly should not be a required move (due to the move being neither remotely vital to the viability of the CAP nor encouraged by our Concept). In any case, I think its actual usefulness has been exaggerated and too many better options have already been approved for Nuzzle to make any sort of impact on Crucible’s viability or find any good space on a moveset .

Name: Offensive Utility
Move 1: Head Smash
Move 2: Gunk Shot
Move 3: U-turn / Low Kick / Wood Hammer
Move 4: Stealth Rock / Nuzzle Reflect
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Crucibellite
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Honestly I think Reflect is a better competitive option than Nuzzle, especially with a fast U-turn on the same set. If not, Stealth Rock can fill that 4th slot just fine all on its own.

 

[Blackdrakon30]

Assault Vest Calcs (I am assuming it is running 252 speed 252 attack with a Jolly nature):

Hide

252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 410-486 (116.1 - 137.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 270-318 (83.5 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 8 HP / 4 SpD Crucibelle: 195-230 (54.9 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 8 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Crucibelle: 130-153 (36.6 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle: 416-491 (117.8 - 139%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Life Orb Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Crucibelle: 276-328 (78.1 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Crucibelle: 174-205 (49.2 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Abomasnow: 117-138 (33.1 - 39%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO

Since it seems that Wood Hammer is most likely going to be a move, I thought it would be interesting to see if assault vest could do anything viable for the base form, since now it can hit water types. It is handy as an item especially if you want to save your Mega Slot for a different Pokemon. Some differences are:

Scarf Keldeo OHKOs using Hydro Pump when no AV, but Crucibelle can take a Hydro Pump if needed with AV, and deal 76.1 - 89.7% damage back with Wood Hammer
LO Gengar 2HKOs Crucibelle with Shadow Ball with no AV, while it is 3HKOed with Crucibelle AV, and Crucibelle can deal 82.2 - 97.2% damage back using Stone Edge
LO Hoopa-U OHKOes with Psychic without an AV on Cruci, can survive a Psychic with AV. Crucibelle can deal 84.4 - 99.6% damage back with Gunk Shot.
Mega Manectric gets a high chance to 2HKO with no AV, while having a high chance to 3HKO with AV.

Some other benefits are significantly less damage from Serperior's leaf storm, and changes being 2HKOed by Prankster Thunderus's Thunderbolt to being 3HKOed. So it seems that there are many situations that we could end up in where the Special Bulk as a (tank, since AV?) or as a pivot, could come in handy. Both of the above are OHKOed by Gunk Shot and Stone Edge, respectively.

Name: Assault Vest
Move 1: Stone Edge
Move 2: Gunk Shot
Move 3: Wood Hammer/U-Turn/Low Kick
Move 4: Knock Off/Nuzzle
Ability: Regenerator
Item: Assault Vest
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

AV is for extra bulk in checking more Special Attackers in OU, as seen above. HP 252 is for good bulk, an the rest of the EVs go into speed so it outspeeds a good amount of Pokemon in order to KO them. You could alternatively split the EVs between Speed and Attack, or put all the EVs in Attack and Speed like I did for the above calcs, or finally do full HP and Attack investment to have good bulk and hit hard in response. Regenerator works well with Crucibelle's good speed tier and Regenerator ability.

• Stone Edge is the secondary STAB. Mostly for hitting Talonflame and other fire Types, and also for hitting Pokemon that resist Poison Type.
• Gunk Shot is the primary STAB due to it's high base power, and is good for hitting Fairy types and Grass Types.
• Wood Hammer is for a coverage move, particularly good for against Keldeo and assorted Ground types. U-Turn is an alternative if you want the CAP more as a pivot to take advantage of Regenerator, or Low Kick as a coverage move for getting more damage against Steel types and it has no recoil like WH.
• The last move is a utility move, so Nuzzle is one obvious choice as it is a move so it can still be used with AV, yet it still just acts like a status move pretty much. I think Nuzzle works well with U-Turn. Knock Off is the other option I would like to discuss because it would be good Utility, as another OO move, and would work well with AV as you could hit switch-ins to have their item knocked off, and then U-Turn out. To be clear, I am saying Knock Off is being used utility in this situation, not as coverage.

This is also a good reason to have Nuzzle, as some people have been in conflict about it.

 

[snake]

Personally, I think Baton Pass would be our best bet, but only if we have no boosting moves.

Now I'm pretty sure that we all think that Parting Shot is way to much for this CAP. So i'm really not seeing any need to talk about it.

Imo Volt Switch has the exact opposite problem as Parting Shot, being a bit to meh, since Grounds are immune to it. The entire point behind pivoting is to grant us momentum and put us in a favorable position, and we can't really do that when we are unable to use our pivot move against a pretty big threat to us. The move also requires a Hasty Nature to get the most out of it, which could put us in a dangerous situation against some Water types.

U-Turn creates a problem with Ferrothorn since we will be taking chip damage every time we want to pivot out before we Mega Evolve. In addition, it makes Tankchomp shit on our base form .even more than it usual (Volt Switch has the same problem but in a different form) U-Turn probably has the least problems out of it, and those problems are somewhat non-existant on the mega form, Volt Switch, and Parting Shot, but imo those problems are pretty noticeable.

Now, Baton Pass has really none of these problems. Unlike Parting Shot, the move is not going to be stupid af. Unlike Volt Switch, we do not need to use a Hasty Nature in order to get the most out of the move and it works on Ground types, and unlike U-Turn we don't get punished for using the move against Ferrothorn pre-mega evolution(Except if it Leech Seeds us, except thats really not going to happen unless it uses the move if we decide to switch in, which probably won't be happening.) Considering that most of us are already against giving CAP21 Boosting moves, the problems that arise from them don't really exist either, but if we do get them, then it might be best to give them U-Turn instead.

TL;DR: Baton Pass if no boosting moves, U-Turn if we have boosting moves

This is from the middle of page 3 or so...
Da Pizza Man summarizes each of the pivoting moves with their pros and cons. We've knocked down Volt Switch and Parting Shot, the former being just bad and the latter being too powerful. U-turn has been accepted into many sets, but what about Baton Pass?

Simply put, we've put ourselves in an awkward position where we end up only 50/50 against Char-X if Ferrothorn is on the opposing team. Both of these mons 2HKO CAP, but insta-die to Head Smash. Ergo, if you want to switch into this thing, you have to follow it up with Head Smash.

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Base Form: 241-285 (68 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Form: 216-255 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Base Form Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 386-456 (129.9 - 153.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Mega form also OHKOs, for obvious reasons.)

Ferrothorn, on the other side of the coin, will ruin you if you run headlong into it. Between the Helmet, the Iron Barbs, and the Head Smash damage you take for staying in Base form, you end up taking 35(min Head Smash Recoil)+59(Helmet)+44(Iron Barb damage)= 138 damage, or 39% of your health. That means even after Regenerator kicks in, you still can't ever switch into Char-X ever again. This is a problem, as this is a mon almost specifically built to switch into Char X.

252 Atk Base Form Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 71-84 (20.1 - 23.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

Given that Ferrothorn is the fifth-most popular teammate to Charizard-X according to the October stats on Showdown, this makes our ability to actually answer X questionable at best. In that regard, U-Turn does virtually nothing to alleviate this problem, as we still take Ferrothorn damage if he switches and U-Turn does nothing if X stays in. Volt switch is slightly better, as we don't collide with Ferro, but against, nothing is done about Char-X. Parting Shot doesn't really do anything to Ferrothorn, but at leas we aren't taking damage, Char X doesn't want to take a Parting Shot, as it heavily hampers his ability to do damage. We also don't have to worry that the mon that's switching into the Dragon Claw is just going to get wrecked.

Similar stats apply to Manaphy even without switching into a dangerous move

252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Form in Rain: 272-324 (76.8 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Form Head Smash vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 277-327 (75.8 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Basically, if you take a Scald, and then get run into a Ferrothorn, you die, but you have to collide with Manaphy twice to beat it. You can avoid the damage by jamming Gunk Shot, but if it misses and Manaphy stays, you've blown yourself out. U-Turn is again useless, as using it as your first move sends one of your Pokemon barreling into Manaphy's Scald without getting the damage through to finish the job, and as a second move runs you into Ferrothorn death. Volt Switch actually is a bit handy here, as you don't need to invest to finish the job. Parting Shot, however gives you the advantage that you don't have to run very specifically Hasty nature in order to both dodge the OHKO from Manaphy or de-value your switch move to the point it doesn't work, which hurts our ability to check Talonflame.

0 SpA Mega Form Volt Switch vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 90-106 (24.6 - 29%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Frankly, we need Parting Shot, because we still don't have inevitability against the mons we're trying to counter, because our threats are simply too good. We need a move that actually hits the mons we're trying to counter, while not utterly devastating ourselves in the process, and Parting Shot more than any other pivot move we can have.

NumberCruncher emphasizes and shows how U-turn's contact with Ferrothorn is a little worrying, but he forgot/didn't mention Baton Pass. While this is a pretty niche situation, Baton Pass lets CAP21 escape without taking chip damage but doesn't have the intense effects of Parting Shot.

Our only issue now is that people have proposed Rock Polish and Coil/Bulk Up, which could lead to Crucibelle to be a boost passer, and Regenerator might allow it to pass twice possibly with the extra health(but I doubt that). What does everyone think about Baton Pass? Should we consider the move or leave it be? I only mention it because I haven't really seen a consensus on it, and there seems to be some good reasoning to back it up.

 

[Alfalfa]

Moveset Submission
Name: Offensive
Move 1: Gunk Shot
Move 2: Head Smash
Move 3: Drill Run / Spikes
Move 4: Encore / U-turn / Toxic Spikes
Ability: Mold Breaker
Item: Mega Stone
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

(12/11/2015): Spikes has been banned, and Encore is not likely to gain enough support in so short a time to be slated. However, I still insist that we consider Drill Run. I honestly feel that Drill Run is still a more desirable option than Low Kick. I still feel that while Low Kick does give us blanket neutrality against all Steels, we should still consider Drill Run, for I feel Ground coverage has not been discussed enough; we really have not had much quality discussion on it. U-turn should be pretty self-explanatory, our CAP will be switching out a lot and U-turn only allows our CAP to do this in a more momentous fashion. I still want our CAP to be able to set up hazards, so I chose TSpikes for its ability to wear down Hippowdon and Garchomp but without being able to break through them directly.

 

[GiantWhirlpool]

so hEAl has been bugging me so i guess ill put in my 2 cents for a set

CAP Liepard
Move 1: Head Smash / Gunk Shot
Move 2: Taunt / Encore
Move 3: Knock Off
Move 4: U-Turn
Ability: Mold Breaker
Item: Leftovers / Life Orb / Mega Stone
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

I named it CAP Liepard because that is one of the best utility counter mons out there, while it isnt quite up to par with other OU mons, its still one of the best at what it does. With access incredibly powerful stab options, why not make use of them? They allow for this set to not only have the ability to deal with stall and utility mons in general, but also be threatening at the same time. Taunt does wonders shutting down stall teams, and things that would try to heal up, set up hazards or status you, and with Mold breaker it can stop Sableye (which is still around, unlike goth :P). Encore is way to deal with these mons as well, locking them into a move it only needs to do once, like rocks, or it if toxic'd it would be locked into that, forcing a switch usually, which would work great in tandem with U-turn, gaining momentum. With access to Knock off it would allow for the utility of removing items from the other teams mons, which is always helpful. Mold Breaker is used so that you can deal with M-Sableye easier, not letting it heal or status you. Life orb is nice as it lets the CAP have more offensive presence, however it would be quickly worn down if using Head Smash, so Lefties might be a better option for this set. The EVs allow for us to be as quick and as powerful as possible, with a Jolly nature to help in that regard. This set also has the ability to be used as an option for Mega-CAP, as it would still be able to do all the things it could above, but without taking recoil from Head Smash, however without Mold Breaker it wouldnt work quite as well, but it still would have its uses either way.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

massive words about not liking nuzzle (while mentioning the steel types that don't mind it and conveniently ignoring the ones that do, i.e. gross, jirachi, maaaybe heatran)

throws reflect on with no justification

Korski, you prolly should address reflect.

Edit: Not saying that I think nuzzle shouldn't be OO. I'm just saying your alternative has received FAR lass discussion than nuzzle and a lot less support.

And for the record, anything on OO will be required moves when it is time for the flavor poll. OO on analyses reflects real moves that the Pokemon definitely learns.

 

[Korski]

Reflect is a cool move for this Pokemon in particular because of that physically defensive weak spot in its typing and stats. It wouldn’t help the CAP itself all that much with the threats list (Hippowdon Earthquake vs. CAP [Reflect]: 85 - 101%), only really changing the RKO situation against Metagross, Scizor and Azumarill and softening blows from Bisharp without activating its ability. The real advantage is in the team support that comes from a speedy combo of Reflect into U-turn. This would give one or several of CAP’s teammates a much easier landing into battle over the next few turns, especially those that can switch into resisted physical attacks aimed at the CAP.

Overall, a moveset of Head Smash / Gunk Shot / U-turn / Stealth Rock or Reflect looks to me like the ideal “standard” set for the CAP from a conceptual standpoint, and everything else is just noise. With these moves, the CAP can focus on STAB damage output with a fallback plan for when those attacks aren’t going to cut it. Simple as that: STABs or GTFO.

And I didn't completely gloss over Megagross and Jirachi, in fact I mentioned they were pretty much the only two Steel-types that make Nuzzle a move worth having.

EDIT (in response to edit above): I mean it's not my fault no one else talked about Reflect, and I'm not married to the idea anyway. Nor am I trying to downplay Nuzzle's support by others in this thread. I'm only just interested in the pro-Nuzzle answers to the questions others have brought up challenging its place on the utility set.

 

[HeaLnDeaL]

The issue with just quoting that old post is that the last paragraph makes it exceptionally clear that this suggestion was made back at a time when coverage was highly contested. How do you think reflect holds up now that we will be having wood hammer and lock kick? Do you think reflect is truly worth a slash, or is it OO? What exactly does reflect do that all of our other moves don't do? In that same quote, you mention Metagross, Scizor, Azu, and Bisharp. We now know that Bisharp is dealt with far better from low kick, that Metagross could potentially be maimed by nuzzle, etc.

In what situations do you think reflect would be set up at, in what situations is it clearly the superior choice over any other move that's been at least decently accepted so far? Why would we want to use reflect on a mega, without access to light clay? These points aren't being made to bash reflect, but they are relevant things I'd like to see addressed.

I'm not saying reflect is a bad move, I'm just confused on why you're basing your arguments on what you said on page three in the context of no coverage when we've already determined by now, on page 5, that we have coverage. To me, I just see all of the new developments (plus the flaw of reflect with no light clay) making the move more of an OO (if it even gets enough ICC to support it). And I'm definitely not saying nuzzle is worthy of a slash but reflect isn't; quite possibly both will be OO.

______________________________

As an aside to everyone, I'd like to see more discussion on reflect, taunt, and encore (taking these last moves from tiny's most recent proposal). I could potentially see all of the moves providing some sort of beneficial role on an offensive utility set, and I think more discussion might help us figure out what we want.

Edit: Adding knock off to the list of moves to be discussed, seeing as it has been featured on multiple sets that were just proposed. Also adding trick.

 

[N-e-a-t-o]

I think Trick is a very cool option as I see this CAP being a very fun scarf user in its non mega form. The only other OU mon with Regenerator that can potentially use a scarf is Tornadus-T, and it does not learn Trick. I would have a lot of fun throwing in CAP 21 and firing off Head Smash and also being able to cripple walls with Trick. This is similar to the Rotom-w Choice Scarf set but with Regenerator. I think there is a chance that this might be a bit overwhelming and i would like to see some discussion about this.
PS: I am a fairly new member so I just wanted to make sure I formated this correctly. Thanks :)

 

[LightningLord2]

Reflect should primarily be considered if we want to give Crucibelle another team support option in my opinion, to which I think we can add Light Screen to the list as well. We already have Curse, Bulk Up or Coil as options for boosting defense, though I'm not sure if Iron Defense would be able to fit on a moveslot, while Cotton Guard might be a tad too much.

I've been in favor of Knock Off for quite a while already - It's mostly just a more reliable hit against Psychic- and Ghost-Types and safely lets Crucibelle remove items as Magic Guard prevents Rocky Helmet damage. It's especially helpful for taking items off of Garchomp and Ferrothorn, which our CAP lures in.