Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[Celticpride]

So bludz is trying to be Mr. Nice Guy and not delete every one liner but I really don't care about being Mr. Nice Guy so I deleted a bunch of posts.

A few troubling trends in this thread. First, when someone new makes a dumb post, there's no need for like 5 people to reply to said post. 1 or 2 maybe, and if they just don't get it after a response or two then leave it to bludz and myself to handle it. This didn't happen in this instance but it does happen quite a bit. These kinds of things tend to derail the thread for pages at a time. Another thing which derails this thread, is when certain ill informed posts are made, and people try to jump all over it in the name of being "edgy" and getting "mad likes." Yeah I mean cool free likes, but seeing a post that borders on a call out will prompt a response and continue chains of posts that are frankly hard to read. For the more experienced readers of this thread, you know damn well the bad posts will be ignored in the grand scheme so please just move on.

If someone like MikeDawg wants to make a post for Clefable to drop, fine, he's entitled to post whatever opinion he wants. People are allowed to have bad opinions. If someone wants to write a calm, rational response that's fine too. But a million one liners and poorly photoshopped memes is not the way I want to see people react and at least myself I will moderate the thread with that mentality in mind.

With all that said, feel free to resume your activities in this thread. But let's see if we can get through like a page without making this thread insanely stupid.

 

[Thatwackycruton]

Clefable S -> A​

I know that this nom is going to get a lot of hate, but I know a lot of people that agree with me but have been too afraid to come forward and defy the ranking council. But screw it. Clefable has been unfairly put on a pedestal for way too long when it should hardly even be A-rank. Here is a list of all of the reasons that clefable should have dropped a long time ago:

1. Stats: has anybody even looked at the stats on clefable? It has a BST of 483... lol. no that isn't a typo. Cresselia (a C- RANK!) has a BST of 600! Latios-Mega (a C RANK) has a BST of 700!! I know what you are thinking: "What about slaking and regigigas?". Well, stat's aren't everything, and their abilities make them not viable. Clefable is one of the weakest pokemon in overused in all of the stats. Then you look at something like mega beedrill, though, and you see that it only has a bst of 495 (which is STILL higher than clefable), but it is a top-tier because it has a good distribution. clefable doesn't have any stats that are higher than 95. It cant defend because of its low defense, it cant atack because of its low attack, and it cant sweep because of its low speed. It is a jack of no trades, master of none.

2. Typing: clefable does have a kind of good typing, but it isnt worthy of an s-ranking. It has weaknesses to poison and steel. I'm sorry, but those are such bad types... you have to be a really bad pokemon to be weak to those on the food chain. and if steel is so bad, then why is scizor and lucario such a popular mon? second, it resists bugs and fightings and darks. but first of all, you dont need to resist bug, you can just use stealth rock. dark type doesnt matter because bisharp has a fricken steel move. And fighting is fair, but i dont see why you need to resist it when you can just kill them with moonblast anyway. Meanwhile, it cant hurt fire types or steel types or poison types. what the heck. if clefable and manaphy drop, then half of the s-rank is one of thse before it mega evolves. if you use clefable then you are just asking to be swept by a talonflame or charizard, end of story. not to mention that you literally cant touch ferrothorn or skarmory who will just setup hazards and kill you with iron moves. Clefable would be a lot better if it had for example a fairy/psychic typing (for poison types) or a fairy/fighting typing (for steels). it is good against op dragons, though.

3. 4 Moveslot Syndrome: clefable has a decent (but not great) movepool. for example, it doesnt get baton pass or spikes. but what it does have gives it 4mss. since it has to do a boosting move because of its stats and a healing move because of its bulk. so it gets 2 moves. u have too many choices here. the best is probably thunderbolt + ice beam, probably, but moonblast is also really good. you could run a status move, but its speed isnt too good, and you have to have a lot o coverage to make up for the bad attack stats. if you do try to run your stab moonblast, then you are locked in to 4mss, because fairy has terrible coverage. you cant hit any steels or poisons or fires. hi talonflame and entei. how are you, mr skarmory and mr metagross. where is mr gengar. oh he couldnt make it that's unfortunate. All of them can 1hko/2hko you as well. these are on literally every team and clefable cant do a darn thing to them unless you run ice beam + thunderbolt or toxic (but then it takes a while and you stil cant hit steels and poisons without support).

4. Abilities: the abilities are really good but they dont fit clefable. Magic guard is awesome awesome awesome, but this isn't black white anymore. nobody uses hazards except for the stealth rock but clefable isnt weak to rocks. so there is no point whatsoever unless you make a lot of double switches. unaware is cool... but are you unaware that clefable doesnt have nay defensive stats to begin with? Even with unaware, almost every pkoemon can 1/2hko it even defensive pokemon like ferrothorn. Maybe if you had unaware on blissey then it would be good, but on clefable it just makes a 2hko mon still a 2hko mon (but not a 1hko mon, which is really good). it helps you against op dragons, but they cant hit clefable anyway so, again, its a good ability that is wasted. Cute charm can be good but it is unreliable since showdown randomly sets the genders, so it is obviously the worst one out of the three.

Clefable just isn't as good as the othe rpokemon in the A+ rank and it is very obvious to anybody that has ever played any of the pokemon games. i don't think a single person has ever used clefable inside of omega ruby or alpha saphire because its stuff isnt up to par. Maybe game freak will give it a mega or an evolution and then smogon can have the fairy in S rank, but right now, it is just too countered to be in the top of the overused tier.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Clefable is quite good, but it's not something that you see on the opposing team and immediately know you're in for a hard battle. It's just kinda... there. Yes, it can put in a ton of work against defensive teams, but even they have tentacruel, heatran, jirachi and a million other mons that can take it on. Stuff that it's supposed to wall, like Mlop, can break through it with a very small amount of prior damage, which is usually the case when you count on Clef to blanket a ton of stuff. Unaware sets still take huge damage from Mega Pinsir and Megazard X, making it hard for it to actually check these threats, much less counter them. It's bulk is mediocre for a defensive mon, and its offensive capabilities leave much to be desired. Clefable is just so easy to outmuscle by any decent offensive of balance squad, and defensive teams are stacked with answers to it like Sp. Def Tflame and the aforementioned poison and steel types. Wallbreakers can break it open like a sack of flour in a woodchipper, the likes of Hoopa-U and Mmeta OHKOing and stuff like Megazard Y, Mgarde, and sylveon scoring Clean 2HKOes. It's stats betray what would otherwise be an undeniably outstanding pokemon in the OU metagame. Drop Clef to A+ or A.

 

[Martin]

Im confused as to why the best thing in the tier has been nommed to move down two subranks...

Sure, in terms of raw stats it isn't all that amazing (not one reaches base 100), but its insanely versatile (its got seven-ish viable sets before consideration of niche/bad sets and uncommon moces like KOff, Ice Beam etc.) and pure fairy is seriously good typing (tbh fairy would prolly be even more borked than dragons were in gen 5 if our pool of options wasn't so lacking in terms of raw stats). In addition, it is so stupidly splashable (very few balanced/defensive teams suffer from having Clefable in one of its roles) courtesy of its versatility, and can you really be saying that 4mss is a point against it being in S when Greninja (i.e. the 4MSS king) faces exactly the same issue? 4MSS doesn't actually exist considering that its choice of moves are entirely team-dependent, meaning that having it just means that it is more versatile. Clefable isn't attempting to beat everything in the metagame in one teamslot because you have 5 other mons to beat what it can't. The thing that makes Clefable so good is that, unlike something like Sylveon or (dare I say it) Florges, who have superior stat spreads, Clefable has such a wide range of options at its disposal that make it much more customisable, and it has access to two absolutely amazing abilities in Magic Guard and Unaware. Its ability to achieve its goal is also helped due to the fact that, unlike both of the aforementioed comparisons, it has workable physical bulk that complements the nature of its sets - with fairy being better typing in a physical role from a defensive standpoint due to it resisting primarily physical types.

While its stats may not surpass 100, to say they are bad would be a stretch at best, because its overall bulk actually rivals a lot of other defensive pokemon - although the deficit which is there can be easily made up for by its insane utility. To try and downplay Clefable on the basis of it being "bad defensively" os saying a lot due to how few things there are that can actually OHKO it without a boost. You say that its speed is too low to sweep, but considering that its "sweeping" sets are designed to flourish v.s. stall and fat balance (not offense) then you can't realistically say that the speed is necessary. Having access to reliable recovery in Softboiled is a huge plus and it is something that a lot of defensive mons would die for.

Clefable is not S because it is some broken monster that is unkillable and OHKOs everything on sight, but rather because of just how major a part of this metagame it is. If Game Freak release a fairy with high stats and a non-abysmal movepool/ability spread then I would be inclined to agree that it isn't S material. However, it fills a role that is huge in terms of building. Sure, you don't necessarily prepare for it and shiver in your boots if you see one on team preview, but that isn't why it is ranked where it is. It functions primarily as a supportive asset or a stallbreakerm depending on what kind of build you run, and it has enough unique features to give it a place on most balanced/defensive teams. In a matchup-reliant meta like ORAS OU, something which can fill lots of roles is always going to see lots of use. Clefable fits this criteria to a T courtesy of its amazing mix of typing, movepool and ability, and while its stat spread isn't good on paper it is surprisingly good in practice, with it taking all the hits it needs to take. Clefable is a perfect example of when to say "never judge a book by its cover" because it is one of those things which is bad on paper but really good in practice. It is unique in what it does and its competition is virtually nonexistent. Yhat's all there is to it.

This is prolly rlly boring to read and probably has a number holes of its own, but Clefable is something which is S rank on gut and IMO it is the best thing in the meta anyway, making S a perfect fit imo.

 

[Waffles n biscuits]

I'd like to nominate Gliscor for A- Or possibly even B+ Rank. Fat grounds such as lando-t hippo and fat chomp are everywhere right now, and as such, people are starting to heavily prepare for the increased usage of such mons through means such as Manaphy, weavile, Keldeo, hp ice hoopa etc. furthermore, I just don't see how gliscors utility currently is on par with mons in A- (pinsir, zone etc) and most certainly don't see it on par with mons like gengar and gard who shit on balance, or manectric who eats offense. SD sets are cool, but it now has to compete with hoopa for the stall breaking category, who simply just has much more power and coverage. Gliscor still is a great mon, but I see it more comparable to mons like diggersby and togekiss for sure.

Obligatory declaration of first post

 

[robofiend]

Re: clef- great mon that is tempting for every team and capable of basically hopping onto any team and providing value. S rank.

Re: gliscor- slightly less great mon but still undeniably useful as a lando/chomp switch in, stallbreaker and utility stall/taunt teammate who syergizes well with lots of teammates. Being impervious to status is a plus, assuming you don't come in on scald or heatran, as is its ability to roost off weak hits, abuse knock off teams and even knock off items itself. It's by no means perfect but deserving of A- imo.

 

[Waffles n biscuits]

Re: clef- great mon that is tempting for every team and capable of basically hopping onto any team and providing value. S rank.

Re: gliscor- slightly less great mon but still undeniably useful as a lando/chomp switch in, stallbreaker and utility stall/taunt teammate who syergizes well with lots of teammates. Being impervious to status is a plus, assuming you don't come in on scald or heatran, as is its ability to roost off weak hits, abuse knock off teams and even knock off items itself. It's by no means perfect but deserving of A- imo.

Possibly A-, but I just don't see A rank man. I personally do not see its utility anywhere near the strength of mons in the current rank it presides in. B+ rank might be a tad harsh admittedly.

Water types are definetely on the rise thanks to the increased usage of other grounds, and while being immune to burn is nice, it doesn't save gliscor from being clean ohkod by Keldeo and Manaphy, and even azumarill to an extent is shitting on it. I see it as more similar to togekiss and diggersby: mons with a clearly defined and useful niche, but not really appreciating the current metagame trends. Stallbreakers are also absolutely in no short supply currently at the moment, and seeing as how goth stall is now dead, stall has now become much less user friendly, which will result in a decrease in stall players and its utility, meaning gliscor has less opportunities to shine. A- or B+ is certainly fine either way, but i personally am not sold on gliscor being as good as gengar or garde right now

 

[Thatwackycruton]

Can you explain how it's too countered when it can bullshit past all of its checks and counters with the right coverage move?

First, I'd like to point out that this is a one-liner. Second, if it uses a nontradional coverage move, such as Focus Blast, it's left countered by a new set of pokemon. Sure, you can beat roar-lacking tran now, but you're left helpless against the likes of amoongus, Defensive Msciz, and a slew of other threats that you could beat much more easily with flamethrower. Furthermore, one could argue that any versatile pokemon could BS past its checks and counters, but it would leave it less viable as a result. Which brings us back to the topic of four moveslot syndrome. however, I'm not going to argue about clef anymore due to the overwhelming opinion being that it stays in S rank, which I don't really agree with but accept.

 

[Mr.Goxel]

Clefable S -> A​

I know that this nom is going to get a lot of hate, but I know a lot of people that agree with me but have been too afraid to come forward and defy the ranking council. But screw it. Clefable has been unfairly put on a pedestal for way too long when it should hardly even be A-rank. Here is a list of all of the reasons that clefable should have dropped a long time ago:

1. Stats: has anybody even looked at the stats on clefable? It has a BST of 483... lol. no that isn't a typo. Cresselia (a C- RANK!) has a BST of 600! Latios-Mega (a C RANK) has a BST of 700!! I know what you are thinking: "What about slaking and regigigas?". Well, stat's aren't everything, and their abilities make them not viable. Clefable is one of the weakest pokemon in overused in all of the stats. Then you look at something like mega beedrill, though, and you see that it only has a bst of 495 (which is STILL higher than clefable), but it is a top-tier because it has a good distribution. clefable doesn't have any stats that are higher than 95. It cant defend because of its low defense, it cant atack because of its low attack, and it cant sweep because of its low speed. It is a jack of no trades, master of none.

2. Typing: clefable does have a kind of good typing, but it isnt worthy of an s-ranking. It has weaknesses to poison and steel. I'm sorry, but those are such bad types... you have to be a really bad pokemon to be weak to those on the food chain. and if steel is so bad, then why is scizor and lucario such a popular mon? second, it resists bugs and fightings and darks. but first of all, you dont need to resist bug, you can just use stealth rock. dark type doesnt matter because bisharp has a fricken steel move. And fighting is fair, but i dont see why you need to resist it when you can just kill them with moonblast anyway. Meanwhile, it cant hurt fire types or steel types or poison types. what the heck. if clefable and manaphy drop, then half of the s-rank is one of thse before it mega evolves. if you use clefable then you are just asking to be swept by a talonflame or charizard, end of story. not to mention that you literally cant touch ferrothorn or skarmory who will just setup hazards and kill you with iron moves. Clefable would be a lot better if it had for example a fairy/psychic typing (for poison types) or a fairy/fighting typing (for steels). it is good against op dragons, though.

3. 4 Moveslot Syndrome: clefable has a decent (but not great) movepool. for example, it doesnt get baton pass or spikes. but what it does have gives it 4mss. since it has to do a boosting move because of its stats and a healing move because of its bulk. so it gets 2 moves. u have too many choices here. the best is probably thunderbolt + ice beam, probably, but moonblast is also really good. you could run a status move, but its speed isnt too good, and you have to have a lot o coverage to make up for the bad attack stats. if you do try to run your stab moonblast, then you are locked in to 4mss, because fairy has terrible coverage. you cant hit any steels or poisons or fires. hi talonflame and entei. how are you, mr skarmory and mr metagross. where is mr gengar. oh he couldnt make it that's unfortunate. All of them can 1hko/2hko you as well. these are on literally every team and clefable cant do a darn thing to them unless you run ice beam + thunderbolt or toxic (but then it takes a while and you stil cant hit steels and poisons without support).

4. Abilities: the abilities are really good but they dont fit clefable. Magic guard is awesome awesome awesome, but this isn't black white anymore. nobody uses hazards except for the stealth rock but clefable isnt weak to rocks. so there is no point whatsoever unless you make a lot of double switches. unaware is cool... but are you unaware that clefable doesnt have nay defensive stats to begin with? Even with unaware, almost every pkoemon can 1/2hko it even defensive pokemon like ferrothorn. Maybe if you had unaware on blissey then it would be good, but on clefable it just makes a 2hko mon still a 2hko mon (but not a 1hko mon, which is really good). it helps you against op dragons, but they cant hit clefable anyway so, again, its a good ability that is wasted. Cute charm can be good but it is unreliable since showdown randomly sets the genders, so it is obviously the worst one out of the three.

Clefable just isn't as good as the othe rpokemon in the A+ rank and it is very obvious to anybody that has ever played any of the pokemon games. i don't think a single person has ever used clefable inside of omega ruby or alpha saphire because its stuff isnt up to par. Maybe game freak will give it a mega or an evolution and then smogon can have the fairy in S rank, but right now, it is just too countered to be in the top of the overused tier.

Im new here but i just needed to reply to this so here we go... Clefable can learn flamethrower so ferrothorn is no true counter to an even unboosted clefable. all of the "counters" u mentioned arent even true because clefable has 4 moves to chose form each one being able to hit its "counters" in a super effective way. its only true counter is heatran cuz he can swap in and kill clefable granted its not too boosted with calm mind. Why did u say magic guard is useless? It allows clefable to use status to its advantage. lets say u swap in on an incoming toxic, boom clefable cant be affected with paralysis which is its only problematic and not helpful status with magic guard. Even if it does get paralyzed clefable is slow so its not outspeeding much (aside from maybe ferrothorn) and when a few calm minds are up it becomes quite bulky and is almost impossible to take down unless u have a bisharp or banded scizor. And i understand u cant run every move on it but its hard to tell what a clefable has. IMO flamethrower moonblast soft boiled and calm mind is its best set. So clefable is more then welcome in the s tier IMO.

 

[Thatwackycruton]

Im new here but i just needed to reply to this so here we go... Clefable can learn flamethrower so ferrothorn is no true counter to an even unboosted clefable. all of the "counters" u mentioned arent even true because clefable has 4 moves to chose form each one being able to hit its "counters" in a super effective way. its only true counter is heatran cuz he can swap in and kill clefable granted its not too boosted with calm mind. Why did u say magic guard is useless? It allows clefable to use status to its advantage. lets say u swap in on an incoming toxic, boom clefable cant be affected with paralysis which is its only problematic and not helpful status with magic guard. Even if it does get paralyzed clefable is slow so its not outspeeding much (aside from maybe ferrothorn) and when a few calm minds are up it becomes quite bulky and is almost impossible to take down unless u have a bisharp or banded scizor. And i understand u cant run every move on it but its hard to tell what a clefable has. IMO flamethrower moonblast soft boiled and calm mind is its best set. So clefable is more then welcome in the s tier IMO.

I said I wasn't going to argue this anymore, but I suppose I'll have to defend the fact that heatran is not the only true counter to Clefable. AV Metagross can switch in on flamethrower or any other move and Pummel it with meteor mash. Fast dragalge can stomach an ice beam and Devastate clefable with an adaptability-boosted Sludge Bomb. Tentacruel can stomach 2 thunderbolts and hit it with acid spray, dropping it's Special defense to a cripplingly low level. CB Victini can come in and straight-up OHKO it with V-Create. I could give more examples along the lines of stallbreaker Tflame, but I think that I've gotten my point across. No, Clefable is not uncounterable, even if it has the potential to run all of the coverage in the world.

 

[Mr.Goxel]

I said I wasn't going to argue this anymore, but I suppose I'll have to defend the fact that heatran is not the only true counter to Clefable. AV Metagross can switch in on flamethrower or any other move and Pummel it with meteor mash. Fast dragalge can stomach an ice beam and Devastate clefable with an adaptability-boosted Sludge Bomb. Tentacruel can stomach 2 thunderbolts and hit it with acid spray, dropping it's Special defense to a cripplingly low level. CB Victini can come in and straight-up OHKO it with V-Create. I could give more examples along the lines of stallbreaker Tflame, but I think that I've gotten my point across. No, Clefable is not uncounterable, even if it has the potential to run all of the coverage in the world.

This will be my last post on this matter but i wasnt saying clefable was uncounterable i was simply saying that some of the counters that were stated prior werent really counters mainly ferrothorn anyway this was a dumb nom so im out

 

[MikeDawg]

I said I wasn't going to argue this anymore, but I suppose I'll have to defend the fact that heatran is not the only true counter to Clefable. AV Metagross can switch in on flamethrower or any other move and Pummel it with meteor mash. Fast dragalge can stomach an ice beam and Devastate clefable with an adaptability-boosted Sludge Bomb. Tentacruel can stomach 2 thunderbolts and hit it with acid spray, dropping it's Special defense to a cripplingly low level. CB Victini can come in and straight-up OHKO it with V-Create. I could give more examples along the lines of stallbreaker Tflame, but I think that I've gotten my point across. No, Clefable is not uncounterable, even if it has the potential to run all of the coverage in the world.

But clef can cripple all of these with its most-ubiquitous "coverage" move: thunder wave. Clef has no issue switching out anyway, but if the intention is to switch one of these mons into clef, then clef absolutely has the means to come out positive. Granted, victini and dragalgae aren't the easiest mons to switch in to, so i guess it could be considered a downside that clef offers them a free attack, but it's a negligible fact in the scope of clefable as a whole.

 

[Kav]

oh ffs a mon doesnt have to sweep all of ou to be s-rank. flamethrower is sitting at 15% usage last month and any other coverage option sits firmly as a lure.

clefables S because its main set is a great special wall, win-con, and para support rolled into one. magic guard gives a fantastic amount of reliability and it has the bulk to set up on wallbreakers like thundurus and kyurem. it cripples a ton of its switch ins with paralysis, which is an extremely safe move most of the time because paralysis is a pain for pretty much every role imaginable. on top of that a number of its softer checks no longer work when paralyzed because you can just click heal until they skip a turn and do shit in between them (not that you really have to. most clefable checks arent the hardest things to switch into).

the set puts out innate pressure because clefable sets up very reliably and thus really limits your ability to use shit like heatran or bisharp to cover any of its teammates.

meanwhile it can also run the unaware set which just fantastically handles a bunch of set-up wallbreakers/sweepers, making it way harder to break through some defensive teams.

and then it can do other support shit like rocks or wish or heal bell.

you cant look at clef in a vacuum and write it off. its not the kind of mon to sweep things after a single free turn, nor is it difficult/dangerous to scout its sets. its s-rank because its excellent at its jobs and pressures the game with the looming threat of a spiky pink doom drawn out over twenty turns.

 

[ethanlol]

oh ffs a Acmon doesnt have to sweep all of ou to be s-rank. flamethrower is sitting at 15% usage last month and any other coverage option sits firmly as a lure.

clefables S because its main set is a great special wall, win-con, and para support rolled into one. magic guard gives a fantastic amount of reliability and it has the bulk to set up on wallbreakers like thundurus and kyurem. it cripples a ton of its switch ins with paralysis, which is an extremely safe move most of the time because paralysis is a pain for pretty much every role imaginable. on top of that a number of its softer checks no longer work when paralyzed because you can just click heal until they skip a turn and do shit in between them (not that you really have to. most clefable checks arent the hardest things to switch into).

the set puts out innate pressure because clefable sets up very reliably and thus really limits your ability to use shit like heatran or bisharp to cover any of its teammates.

meanwhile it can also run the unaware set which just fantastically handles a bunch of set-up wallbreakers/sweepers, making it way harder to break through some defensive teams.

and then it can do other support shit like rocks or wish or heal bell.

you cant look at clef in a vacuum and write it off. its not the kind of mon to sweep things after a single free turn, nor is it difficult/dangerous to scout its sets. its s-rank because its excellent at its jobs and pressures the game with the looming threat of a spiky pink doom drawn out over twenty turns.

I agree it is really good since it can cripple it's checks on switchins and usually doesn't die in one hit to due it's bulk. I think it's extremely difficult to play around. It is basically the reason i always have steel/poison types on my team. Access to flamethrower also pressures scizor and ferrothorn. Due to the OU metagame being full of dragon, dark, and fighting types you have to keep your steel/poison type alive or it will be difficult to take down clefable.

This is first time doing this. Sorry if I confuse or say anything wrong. Help appreciated.

 

[pika pal]

Alright, as much as I dislike Clefable, I do want to address these points because this blob of Fairy dust gives me no end of trouble, and even if it drops, I think 2 Sub-Ranks is a big jump when NOT considering it moving out of S.

Clefable S -> A​

I know that this nom is going to get a lot of hate, but I know a lot of people that agree with me but have been too afraid to come forward and defy the ranking council. But screw it. Clefable has been unfairly put on a pedestal for way too long when it should hardly even be A-rank. Here is a list of all of the reasons that clefable should have dropped a long time ago:

1. Stats: has anybody even looked at the stats on clefable? It has a BST of 483... lol. no that isn't a typo. Cresselia (a C- RANK!) has a BST of 600! Latios-Mega (a C RANK) has a BST of 700!! I know what you are thinking: "What about slaking and regigigas?". Well, stat's aren't everything, and their abilities make them not viable. Clefable is one of the weakest pokemon in overused in all of the stats. Then you look at something like mega beedrill, though, and you see that it only has a bst of 495 (which is STILL higher than clefable), but it is a top-tier because it has a good distribution. clefable doesn't have any stats that are higher than 95. It cant defend because of its low defense, it cant atack because of its low attack, and it cant sweep because of its low speed. It is a jack of no trades, master of none.

1. Stats: While it is true that Clefable's stats are middle-of-the-road if not low all across the board, I'm inclined to say if its stats were slightly better, there'd be no debate about where it needs to be ranked. This mon always has an option for reliable recovery, something most bulkier mons or better defensively typed mons can't boast, which gives it a great deal of longevity. 95/73/90 Bulk doesn't seem like much, but with how few hard hitters there are with its weaknesses in OU, that's enough to take a couple neutral hits while keeping its health up. It's not too fast or too strong, but Clefable's main role on most teams is as a defensive glue and Utility, and it has a myriad of options to serve that purpose. You bring up Latios-Mega in the C-Ranks, which if anything proves stats are not nearly as big of a deal, as there are numerous other factors working against it. Clefable's stats aren't fantastic, but it brings all its utility with little to no oportunity cost: it doesn't bar any forms, take the Mega Slot, or even prove too restrictive on defensive Synergy.

2. Typing: clefable does have a kind of good typing, but it isnt worthy of an s-ranking. It has weaknesses to poison and steel. I'm sorry, but those are such bad types... you have to be a really bad pokemon to be weak to those on the food chain. and if steel is so bad, then why is scizor and lucario such a popular mon? second, it resists bugs and fightings and darks. but first of all, you dont need to resist bug, you can just use stealth rock. dark type doesnt matter because bisharp has a fricken steel move. And fighting is fair, but i dont see why you need to resist it when you can just kill them with moonblast anyway. Meanwhile, it cant hurt fire types or steel types or poison types. what the heck. if clefable and manaphy drop, then half of the s-rank is one of thse before it mega evolves. if you use clefable then you are just asking to be swept by a talonflame or charizard, end of story. not to mention that you literally cant touch ferrothorn or skarmory who will just setup hazards and kill you with iron moves. Clefable would be a lot better if it had for example a fairy/psychic typing (for poison types) or a fairy/fighting typing (for steels). it is good against op dragons, though.

2. Typing: I don't quite understand what you're saying here. You say Clefable has "to be a really bad pokemon to be weak to those on the food chain", yet also note that those aren't good types in and of themselves. And you've got a point about Scizor, but I wouldn't call Lucario TOO popular in OU, and even then, the Steel STAB it needs to OHKO Clefable is a slash on its sets, meaning it's not always going to show up. On to the resistances, the Dark Resist is a pretty notable trait when you consider OU is a tier with several Knock Off users, be they offensive or Utility usage. You also get it backwards with Bisharp: The Dark Resistance isn't Moot because of the Steel STAB, rather Bisharp is a good Dark Type because it has a way around Clefable with it. Most other Dark types need to carry a coverage move for Clefable to avoid being walled, crippled, or beaten by even uninvested Moonblast.

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252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 179-212 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 132-156 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

The reason Bug Resist isn't a big deal isn't Stealth Rock, it's because OU has relatively few viable Bug types for other reasons. And the Fighting Resist. You say it's not important because you can kill them with Moonblast, but there's still the matter of switching onto the field in a realistic situation. Compare something like Gengar: it's fast and hits like a truck with great coverage, but it's sitting at best in A-Rank because it has difficulty getting in against most mons carrying a neutral move, even low power ones. Clefable can come in on some of OU's harder hitting Fighting moves or strong-but-not-ridiculous neutral moves and Retaliate with Thunder Wave, Heal itself, Start CM-ing, or just smack with Moonblast if the foe is weakened. Clefable's typing goes a long way for it in an OU loaded with Fighting and Dark attacks.

3. 4 Moveslot Syndrome: clefable has a decent (but not great) movepool. for example, it doesnt get baton pass or spikes. but what it does have gives it 4mss. since it has to do a boosting move because of its stats and a healing move because of its bulk. so it gets 2 moves. u have too many choices here. the best is probably thunderbolt + ice beam, probably, but moonblast is also really good. you could run a status move, but its speed isnt too good, and you have to have a lot o coverage to make up for the bad attack stats. if you do try to run your stab moonblast, then you are locked in to 4mss, because fairy has terrible coverage. you cant hit any steels or poisons or fires. hi talonflame and entei. how are you, mr skarmory and mr metagross. where is mr gengar. oh he couldnt make it that's unfortunate. All of them can 1hko/2hko you as well. these are on literally every team and clefable cant do a darn thing to them unless you run ice beam + thunderbolt or toxic (but then it takes a while and you stil cant hit steels and poisons without support).

3. 4 Moveslot Syndrome: This is a point that I always find tricky to legitimately argue because while there are plenty of mons with trouble doing a job, lack of moveslots is usually not the cause for a good teambuilder. While Clefable would certainly enjoy having a 5th moveslot, it's usually not a necessity for it to function on a team. A healing move is usually a big deal for it certainly, but a boosting move isn't implicitly necessary because, much like Sableye, Clefable's job isn't to sweep teams so much as cripple and mess with opposing mons to make a good situation for its teammates. On these sets, Moonblast is there to give it a way to not be Taunt bait, and then the Status moves really let it cripple things, especially since Magic Guard means it isn't concerned by opposing status. While not quite as useful, Offensive sets do have some merit to play around with, but BoltBeam isn't necessarily the top option, as Moonblast gets amazing Neutral coverage and any accompanying moves would be to hit its resistors, hence Fire Blast and Focus Blast slashed for the Offensive Tank set. Of course there are mons Clefable fears, same as anything else in the Metagame, but any team without something to deal with these things (Talonflame answers are outright mandatory for any decent team) needs to rebuild in the first place. Also, Entei isn't exactly hugely prominent, and while everything else is high ranked, I don't think they have the kind of dominating usage that means Clefable needs to handle them itself alongside other teammate answers.

If you're expecting a mon to wall, sweep, and status all in one, you're looking for an Uber mon at that point. Given a job, Clefable does it just fine for its team and cores.

4. Abilities: the abilities are really good but they dont fit clefable. Magic guard is awesome awesome awesome, but this isn't black white anymore. nobody uses hazards except for the stealth rock but clefable isnt weak to rocks. so there is no point whatsoever unless you make a lot of double switches. unaware is cool... but are you unaware that clefable doesnt have nay defensive stats to begin with? Even with unaware, almost every pkoemon can 1/2hko it even defensive pokemon like ferrothorn. Maybe if you had unaware on blissey then it would be good, but on clefable it just makes a 2hko mon still a 2hko mon (but not a 1hko mon, which is really good). it helps you against op dragons, but they cant hit clefable anyway so, again, its a good ability that is wasted. Cute charm can be good but it is unreliable since showdown randomly sets the genders, so it is obviously the worst one out of the three.

You say Magic Guard has "no point whatsoever" since no one uses Spikes and Clefable isn't weak to Rocks, but

• Earlier to knocked Clefable's movepool for not including Spikes. Either the move isn't prominent enough to be missed amongst everything, or it is worrisome enough that avoiding its damage is a big deal
• Rock weakness or no, losing 1/8 health per switch for a neutral mon isn't good for anyone: Offensive mons have to make their even more limited entrances count, especially if they have LO recoil, while defensive mons simply hate losing health period.

And hazard issues or not, Magic Guard also makes Clefable good at absorbing Status for its team, as neither Burns or Toxic do anything, while it's too slow to worry over Paralysis as much as offensive teammates. There's also things like Sand damage and such, but those are edge cases in the grand scheme of things, I'll concede.

Unaware isn't quite as game defining, but it still lets you eat some pretty troublesome set up mons, such as

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Sub + CM Keldeo
252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 142-168 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- 95.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 216-254 (66.8 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

CM Latios
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 149-177 (37.9 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 182-216 (60.2 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

DD Regular Gyarados
192+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 118-139 (30 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 99-117 (28 - 33.1%) -- 83% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

And there are a couple mons it beats just by virtue of being Clefable, or without Unaware playing in. The only other Unaware user in OU is Quagsire, and unlike him, Clefable has things like T-Wave to cripple the mon even if it can't be walled indefinitely or beaten outright.

Cute Charm is trash, but no one worth their salt used it anyway.

Clefable just isn't as good as the othe rpokemon in the A+ rank and it is very obvious to anybody that has ever played any of the pokemon games. i don't think a single person has ever used clefable inside of omega ruby or alpha saphire because its stuff isnt up to par. Maybe game freak will give it a mega or an evolution and then smogon can have the fairy in S rank, but right now, it is just too countered to be in the top of the overused tier.

I disagree. On paper none of the Clefable's traits are particularly spectacular, but the sheer number of viable combinations it can make out of those traits to fit onto a team without being immediately obvious makes it a pain to deal with unscathed compared to most of A Rank, and even a lot of A+ mons. With a lot of A-Ranks, there's very few with much variation in their options, so they're easy to play around if you're decently prepared in team building.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Clefable should drop to A+. It's overloaded af and has to be kept in perfect shape to avoid 2HKOes from the likes of Weavile, Mega Lop, Cube and Tyranitar. With Knock Off being everywhere (and ironically Clef is one of those mons who is used to Knock Off all the time) it has a hard time to stay at 100% all the time, even with Magic Guard. Meanwhile the Unaware variants can't really deal with special sweepers due to max investment into physical bulk, failing against stuff like special Victini or Mega Diancie, who can 2HKO it pretty easily. There's also stuff it just can't avoid the 2HKO from, regardless the set, like LO/Specs Keldeo, Hoopa (regular or -U), Mega Swampert in rain, etc. Clefable's low stats bite it in the ass and it shows.

Also guys, stop saying Clef can bullshit through any check/counter with the right coverage move, it's just a lure that makes the set worse in 90% of the other situations, and a lot (and I mean A LOT) of mons can do that too. Else I may as well say "Goodra shits on Charizard Y, but Tyranitar stomps it, how about I run Focus Blast and destroy this stupid core, yeaaaaah bring this mon to B- or something its criminally underrated", ignoring that generally it wants to shit on steels (most of them aren't weak to fighting btw) and stuff like Heatran, so Focus Blast would be inferior most of the time, EXCEPT for T-tar (also 70% acc).

Not doing this because I want a blue S rank (especially since Hoopa should rise) but Clef is very prepared for nowadays and should drop at this point. Same we did with Mega Metagross.

 

[Alfalfa]

Clefable should drop to A+. It's overloaded af and has to be kept in perfect shape to avoid 2HKOes from the likes of Weavile, Mega Lop, Cube and Tyranitar. With Knock Off being everywhere (and ironically Clef is one of those mons who is used to Knock Off all the time) it has a hard time to stay at 100% all the time, even with Magic Guard. Meanwhile the Unaware variants can't really deal with special sweepers due to max investment into physical bulk, failing against stuff like special Victini or Mega Diancie, who can 2HKO it pretty easily. There's also stuff it just can't avoid the 2HKO from, regardless the set, like LO/Specs Keldeo, Hoopa (regular or -U), Mega Swampert in rain, etc. Clefable's low stats bite it in the ass and it shows.

Not doing this because I want a blue S rank (especially since Hoopa should rise) but Clef is very prepared for nowadays and should drop at this point. Same we did with Mega Metagross.

Mentioning irrelevant Pokemon and irrelevant sets is not going to support any argument you make at all.Don't ever use Special Victini as an argument for anything, V-Create hits way too hard to not be on any Victini wall-breaking set. The same thing applies for Mega Swampert, as rain teams honestly find other Megas better fits onto their team archetypes, particularly Mega Heracross, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Scizor, the former two for their ability to break down most bulky rain checks. Unaware sets on Clefable are not meant to deal with Special Attackers unless it is invested directly into special defense, as Unaware affects more physically-based Pokemon, particularly Mega Altaria, offensive Garchomp, and PuP Mega Lopunny.

 

[AM]

Can we have a conclusion reached on Clefable staying S please? To sound like a dick these arguments for it to drop are extremely bad. *Insert elitism card here

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Mentioning irrelevant Pokemon and irrelevant sets is not going to support any argument you make at all.Don't ever use Special Victini as an argument for anything, V-Create hits way too hard to not be on any Victini wall-breaking set. The same thing applies for Mega Swampert, as rain teams honestly find other Megas better fits onto their team archetypes, particularly Mega Heracross, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Scizor, the former two for their ability to break down most bulky rain checks. Unaware sets on Clefable are not meant to deal with Special Attackers unless it is invested directly into special defense, as Unaware affects more physically-based Pokemon, particularly Mega Altaria, offensive Garchomp, and PuP Mega Lopunny.

How is Special Victini not viable? I mean maybe I don't want to get forced out after one turn or something, and instead want to wreak havoc with stuff like Blue Flare, Thunder and Focus Blast (which btw have improved accuracy) which unleashes hell on balanced teams, and even stall (assuming people don't really want to switch chansey into victini in the first place).
Also Mega Swampert is definitely the best mega to use on rain teams, period. Sure, you can use other megas like the one you mentioned, but Swampert just has too much utility and sweeping potential with Swift Swim activated. If he gets to +1 (via PuP) he becomes extremely difficult to stop due to his high bulk and hard-hitting Waterfall.
Unaware sets on Clefable aren't meant to deal with special attackers, so basically you just made my point.

 

[Alfalfa]

How is Special Victini not viable? I mean maybe I don't want to get forced out after one turn or something, and instead want to wreak havoc with stuff like Blue Flare, Thunder and Focus Blast (which btw have improved accuracy) which unleashes hell on balanced teams, and even stall (assuming people don't really want to switch chansey into victini in the first place).
Also Mega Swampert is definitely the best mega to use on rain teams, period. Sure, you can use other megas like the one you mentioned, but Swampert just has too much utility and sweeping potential with Swift Swim activated. If he gets to +1 (via PuP) he becomes extremely difficult to stop due to his high bulk and hard-hitting Waterfall.
Unaware sets on Clefable aren't meant to deal with special attackers, so basically you just made my point.

Special Victini sets aren't unviable, it is just that physical and mixed sets (literally just special sets with V-Create) are more potent.

Mega Swampert is a highly restrictive Mega to use on rain teams. Ask any high-level player and they will tell you that Mega Pinsir, Mega Heracross, and Mega Scizor are all much easier to fit onto rain teams due to how well they synergize with common rain mons, especially Kingdra and Kabutops. Mega Pinsir and Mega Heracross break down most bulky rain checks, whereas Mega Swampert can only offer an Electric immunity that is much easier to replace than the sheer advantages offered by Mega Pinsir and Mega heracross.

I did not make your point on Unaware Clefable; I made the exact opposite by stating that max physical defensive Unaware Clefable is not meant to wall special attackers. There are mixed defensive Unaware sets, but the spread you are mentioning is not meant to be used to switch into Pokemon like Mega Diancie at all. Stop mentioning that I proved your point because you are exaggerating what I said.

 

[Celticpride]

Can we have a conclusion reached on Clefable staying S please? To sound like a dick these arguments for it to drop are extremely bad. *Insert elitism card here

Are you asking for a conclusion from the ranking team on a drop, or a conclusion reached category in the OP like there used to be? Your post could be interpreted either way.

 

[Martin]

Are you asking for a conclusion from the ranking team on a drop, or a conclusion reached category in the OP like there used to be? Your post could be interpreted either way.

IIRC in the v2 or v3 thread AM has said that you can't really say that a conclusion has been reached considering that there are metagame shifts happening all the time which could potentially alter sonething's viability. I'd look for the post but im on tablet atm so it isn't all that practical, but I have a vaigue recollection of him saying something like that when he got that and blacklisted removed. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

[AM]

Are you asking for a conclusion from the ranking team on a drop, or a conclusion reached category in the OP like there used to be? Your post could be interpreted either way.

Conclusion reached.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Special Victini sets aren't unviable, it is just that physical and mixed sets (literally just special sets with V-Create) are more potent.

Mega Swampert is a highly restrictive Mega to use on rain teams. Ask any high-level player and they will tell you that Mega Pinsir, Mega Heracross, and Mega Scizor are all much easier to fit onto rain teams due to how well they synergize with common rain mons, especially Kingdra and Kabutops. Mega Pinsir and Mega Heracross break down most bulky rain checks, whereas Mega Swampert can only offer an Electric immunity that is much easier to replace than the sheer advantages offered by Mega Pinsir and Mega heracross.

I did not make your point on Unaware Clefable; I made the exact opposite by stating that max physical defensive Unaware Clefable is not meant to wall special attackers. There are mixed defensive Unaware sets, but the spread you are mentioning is not meant to be used to switch into Pokemon like Mega Diancie at all. Stop mentioning that I proved your point because you are exaggerating what I said.

Yet you implied that Special Victini is unviable. Lol.

Also Heracross and Scizor can't really beat offensive rain checks in return, like Charizard Y, while Pinsir needs hazard control, which rain teams struggle to fit (especially if they also have Torn-T). And honestly Swampert can tank a Giga Drain from the likes of Amoonguss and Celebi and 2HKO with +1 Ice Punch.

Yes you made my point; Clefable just isn't bulky enough to switch into special attackers if it runs an Unaware set. I really doubt the utility of mixed defensive Unaware sets btw.

But can we stop this? Don't really want to turn this thread about which mega is better onto a sub-particular kind of HO.

 

[Alfalfa]

Yet you implied that Special Victini is unviable. Lol.

Also Heracross and Scizor can't really beat offensive rain checks in return, like Charizard Y, while Pinsir needs hazard control, which rain teams struggle to fit (especially if they also have Torn-T). And honestly Swampert can tank a Giga Drain from the likes of Amoonguss and Celebi and 2HKO with +1 Ice Punch.

Yes you made my point; Clefable just isn't bulky enough to switch into special attackers if it runs an Unaware set. I really doubt the utility of mixed defensive Unaware sets btw.

You are still distorting what I said again. Let me clarify:

I never meant to imply that Special Victini was unviable. I simply stated that physical and mixed sets were of higher value in the metagame.

I never stated that Heracross and Scizor were meant to break offensive rain checks. I stated that Mega Pinsir and Mega Heracross were meant to break defensive rain checks, like Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, Amoonguss, and Assault Vest Tangrowth, the latter of which is mostly used by players of higher skill. Mega Swampert does not beat Zard Y either, as it gets OHKOd by Solarbeam. Amoonguss has Regenerator, and Giga Drain recovery does offset the amount of damage it makes from Mega Swampert anyways. The same thing applies to Celebi, even without Regenerator.

Max defense Unaware Clefable is not meant to wall everything, only a slew of particular threats. Citing special attackers as mons that threaten it to support dropping it is utter bullshit because walling Special Attackers is not even what max defense Unaware Clefable is supposed to do. Hint: Mega Sableye is not meant to switch into Fairy-types; yet, with your logic, we should drop it because it fails to beat Azumarill / Mega Diancie / Mega Gardevoir.

 

[AM]

IIRC in the v2 or v3 thread AM has said that you can't really say that a conclusion has been reached considering that there are metagame shifts happening all the time which could potentially alter sonething's viability. I'd look for the post but im on tablet atm so it isn't all that practical, but I have a vaigue recollection of him saying something like that when he got that and blacklisted removed. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Yeah this is correct hence why I took it off but seeing how we're about to go into 3 pages of what I would hope isn't an actual argument for something to drop that I'd like to hope some common sense implies it shouldn't (I say 3 cause on average that's how long these "arguments" end up lasting). It seems silly to get into a debate that 1. shouldn't be happening in the eyes of tons of people 2. going to spiral into a super low quality discussion.

Edit: Example see the posts above this and assume this is going to be the back and forth being seen.