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I'd say that it was about what I expected - not as good as the originals, better than the prequels, and incredibly, incredibly safe.
There were a few reasons why I felt it was not nearly as good as a lot of people are saying, and certainly not as good as Return of the Jedi much less the two masterpieces of the franchise, Star Wars and Empire.
The first is quite simple: the setup made no sense, and was ripped straight from the original. Why and how did the First Order arise after the events of Jedi? Why did the Republic allow it to happen mere years after the collapse of the Empire? Who are the Resistance and why would they have to be separated from the Republic? Why weren't they just the Republic's main army/fleet? If they were, why did they allow the creation of a planet which literally sucks in stars for energy and can destroy planets? On the part of the First Order, did no one give a thought to the fact that unlike a space station, a planet has no control system nor ambient heating for it's outer shell, and therefore A. the weapon could not move effectively, B. the exterior of the planet would be near zero degrees, and C. the planet could only reliably charge once before exhausting it's supply of local stars? Outside of the First Order, why would Luke leave a convoluted map to where he was planning on going? If he didn't want to be found why tell anyone, and if he only wanted those closest to him to know where he is, then why not just tell them? Where was Supreme Leader Snoke during the times of the Empire?
None of these relatively fundamental questions about the basic premise of the movie are ever answered.
The second reason I felt it was not as good as any of the originals was that the story was completely re-hashed from both the original and Jedi. Big weapon of the enemy, blow it up by any means necessary before it wipes out everything we hold dear. Only unlike in Star Wars or Jedi, the assault on the weapon felt way easier than it should've been, and far less interesting. As much as I hate the Ewoks at least the Empire had an entire legion of 'it's finest troops' defending it's shield generator in Jedi, not to mention an armada of warships to defend it from space attacks. The First Order had nothing. They let three inexperienced/old Resistance fighters plus a wookie into their primary stabilization center without any attempt at a fight (I think they shot like one stormtrooper on guard duty) and I don't think I ever again saw as many troops as I did when they raided some no-name village in the very first scene, even in the life-or-death defense of their greatest installation. In other words, everything about the final sequence felt like a cheap version of what we've already seen.
The third and probably most important reason is simply that the main characters' growth had no substance to it. Throughout the original trilogy, we see Luke cope with tragedy (the loss of his family), failure (his first stint of training with Yoda on Dagobah), and defeat (at the hands of Darth Vader in Cloud City). Through his experiences he grows and becomes a more complete warrior and character simultaneously. Rey just assumed her powers without any training whatsoever, and it didn't strike me as at all consistent with what we had previously been shown of the force. Now I'm sure that they will explain she is somehow like the next coming of Anakin Skywalker in terms of being incredibly powerful, but I feel like she should've had it at least as hard as Luke; no one would've believed if Luke had managed to trick the stormtroopers with a jedi mind trick when they escaped the death star late in the original movie, because his character arc hadn't gotten to that point yet. He still had much to learn and grow towards. I can't see how Rey has anywhere left to go that we should care about. Finn has similar problems, though at least his arc starts off with real growth and we see his struggle throughout the film with coming to terms with his past identity - and yet there's never a doubt that he has entirely abandoned his old ways. There's no real tension, just the threat that someone might be an asshole and hold his past against him, which of course no one does. And therefore all the tension in his identity vanishes as quickly as it was manufactured, and so in reality all he really did was get his ass kicked for two hours. I honestly felt really badly for him because he seems like the most relatable character in the entire movie, and yet he wasn't allowed any opportunity to grow as a warrior because he spent all his time getting saved by Poe, Rey, Han, Chewbacca, etc. I'm not sure how Finn is any different now from how he was five minutes into the movie, and I think that's an awful shame. Poe obviously doesn't undergo any sort of growth, and there's not any other new characters whose names I can even remember (outside of General Hux the caricature of evil and the old Empire, seriously I wouldn't be surprised if he's the son of one of the actors who played the exact same role in the original trilogy, except at least those characters had to cope with fear of Darth Vader and (in the deleted scenes of Jedi) actual moral dilemma with whether to blow up Endor in pure spite or not). The only character who grows is, well, Kylo Ren, who I will get to later on in this post once I start talking about the positives of this movie.
Luke had no speaking lines, Princess Leia was at best a spot character for nostalgia purposes only. R2D2 and C3PO were there for obligatory reference only.
In all, I guess that all of these complaints can be summed up as what I said earlier: the whole movie felt safe. They threw a lot of action in, constantly referred back to/plagiarized the original trilogy, and generally tried to deliver a movie that was as fun and thoughtless as possible.
All of that grousing aside, however, there were a few bright spots, reasons for hope, and, well, reasons why this was in fact a better movie than the prequels and a pretty fun and entertaining movie overall.
The biggest bright spots of this movie were clearly Han Solo, Kylo Ren, and their interaction/dynamic. I wish there had been more Kylo Ren in this movie; in particular, I'd have liked a series of flashbacks detailing his relationship with Luke, the rise and fall of the foundling Jedi order Luke was trying to create, and his fall to the Dark Side/manipulation by Snoke. I found his weakness particularly believable: for the first time, we see how a powerful warrior with a weak personality could be turned to serve the every whim of a Sith Lord. I always felt that it must've been something particularly traumatic to turn a character as strong as Darth Vader into a Sith, and obviously the prequels didn't deliver on that (yes he was weak-willed, but there is little to no relation between the Anakin Skywalker of the prequels and Darth Vader of the original trilogy). Kylo Ren, however, is completely believable as a Sith apprentice: he has no control of his emotions (particularly anger), struggles with his conscious at times, and feels he must prove himself as being a true Sith. He's a child with seemingly boundless potential power, and strangely enough he undergoes more character development and growth than all the good characters put together. He felt like a different character by the end of the movie. Meanwhile Harrison Ford put forth what I think is his strongest performance as Han Solo to date, and his character's death provided basically the only real emotional meat of the entire film.
Outside of that, the visuals were great, as I'd expect. The action was engaging, and there were few if any groan-worthy lines of dialogue; Lawrence Kasden's impact could really be felt throughout this film, as the script was simply in a higher class than any of the prequels'. Most importantly perhaps, scene-to-scene the movie felt fun, despite it's flaws. It felt like it didn't take itself too seriously, and the sets looked infinitely better than the CGI monstrosities of the prequel trilogy. They looked like real places where real people struggled to get by, and the consequent vast improvement in acting quality, I suspect, derives from this fact. Finally, it does feel like the story has room to expand and develop; the characters of Luke and Snoke are both still largely unexplored, and Rey clearly has a lot more going on in terms of family history than meets the eye. I just hope that they figure out something more to do with her, because as we saw with Neo in the Matrix trilogy, stories get less interesting when the protagonist has already hit a plateau in terms of development by the time the first movie ends.
Finally, the music was fantastic. I feel like this is almost assumed at this point for a Star Wars movie, but it's worth mentioning in any case.
Overall I guess I'd say that it felt like a classic Star Wars movie, even if it was lacking in a few areas. It was fast-paced and fun, but it's not one I'm anxious to watch again nor one that I feel will have much staying power in years to come; again, it's a far cry from Star Wars or The Empire Strikes Back. I suspect those two movies will be watched long after The Force Awakens vanishes from the public eye.
I agree with a lot of your points, but there are a few expectations that you have that I don't think are fair
I agree completely with your points about the weapon. I also agree with a lot of your gripes with the plot. It was heavily rehashed, and I hope the sequels don't match the original trilogy to that degree of closeness. However, I take issue with some of your comments on character development. When you cite moments of Luke's growth, you cite examples from multiple movies. It's not fair to compare the whole original trilogy to one episode of the new trilogy. In addition, I think we have had crucial moments of character developments. Rey has to let go of her past on Jakku, and she accepts the mantle as the next Jedi. While losing Han didn't have the same punch as losing Obi-wan, Rey clearly looked up to Han a lot. We see from one of her first scenes that she is obsessed with the Rebellion, and she shows constant interest in the mythos of the war and its heroes. Yeah, she wasn't as close to Han as Luke was to Obi-wan. Han comes into the movie a lot later, and he's more of a hero figure than a friend. But I still think watching Han die was important for her growth; its the death of a hero. On to Finn. He has growth in the movie centered around his cowardice and desire to run. He goes from wanting to get as far from the First Order as he can, to landing on their base. He even stands and fights Kylo Ren with a weapon with which he has no experience. I'm not saying the development is complete, or even that it was perfectly executed, but for one movie out of three I think we saw a passable amount.
I'd say that it was about what I expected - not as good as the originals, better than the prequels, and incredibly, incredibly safe.
There were a few reasons why I felt it was not nearly as good as a lot of people are saying, and certainly not as good as Return of the Jedi much less the two masterpieces of the franchise, Star Wars and Empire.
The first is quite simple: the setup made no sense, and was ripped straight from the original. Why and how did the First Order arise after the events of Jedi? Why did the Republic allow it to happen mere years after the collapse of the Empire? Who are the Resistance and why would they have to be separated from the Republic? Why weren't they just the Republic's main army/fleet? If they were, why did they allow the creation of a planet which literally sucks in stars for energy and can destroy planets? On the part of the First Order, did no one give a thought to the fact that unlike a space station, a planet has no control system nor ambient heating for it's outer shell, and therefore A. the weapon could not move effectively, B. the exterior of the planet would be near zero degrees, and C. the planet could only reliably charge once before exhausting it's supply of local stars? Outside of the First Order, why would Luke leave a convoluted map to where he was planning on going? If he didn't want to be found why tell anyone, and if he only wanted those closest to him to know where he is, then why not just tell them? Where was Supreme Leader Snoke during the times of the Empire?
None of these relatively fundamental questions about the basic premise of the movie are ever answered.
The second reason I felt it was not as good as any of the originals was that the story was completely re-hashed from both the original and Jedi. Big weapon of the enemy, blow it up by any means necessary before it wipes out everything we hold dear. Only unlike in Star Wars or Jedi, the assault on the weapon felt way easier than it should've been, and far less interesting. As much as I hate the Ewoks at least the Empire had an entire legion of 'it's finest troops' defending it's shield generator in Jedi, not to mention an armada of warships to defend it from space attacks. The First Order had nothing. They let three inexperienced/old Resistance fighters plus a wookie into their primary stabilization center without any attempt at a fight (I think they shot like one stormtrooper on guard duty) and I don't think I ever again saw as many troops as I did when they raided some no-name village in the very first scene, even in the life-or-death defense of their greatest installation. In other words, everything about the final sequence felt like a cheap version of what we've already seen.
The third and probably most important reason is simply that the main characters' growth had no substance to it. Throughout the original trilogy, we see Luke cope with tragedy (the loss of his family), failure (his first stint of training with Yoda on Dagobah), and defeat (at the hands of Darth Vader in Cloud City). Through his experiences he grows and becomes a more complete warrior and character simultaneously. Rey just assumed her powers without any training whatsoever, and it didn't strike me as at all consistent with what we had previously been shown of the force. Now I'm sure that they will explain she is somehow like the next coming of Anakin Skywalker in terms of being incredibly powerful, but I feel like she should've had it at least as hard as Luke; no one would've believed if Luke had managed to trick the stormtroopers with a jedi mind trick when they escaped the death star late in the original movie, because his character arc hadn't gotten to that point yet. He still had much to learn and grow towards. I can't see how Rey has anywhere left to go that we should care about. Finn has similar problems, though at least his arc starts off with real growth and we see his struggle throughout the film with coming to terms with his past identity - and yet there's never a doubt that he has entirely abandoned his old ways. There's no real tension, just the threat that someone might be an asshole and hold his past against him, which of course no one does. And therefore all the tension in his identity vanishes as quickly as it was manufactured, and so in reality all he really did was get his ass kicked for two hours. I honestly felt really badly for him because he seems like the most relatable character in the entire movie, and yet he wasn't allowed any opportunity to grow as a warrior because he spent all his time getting saved by Poe, Rey, Han, Chewbacca, etc. I'm not sure how Finn is any different now from how he was five minutes into the movie, and I think that's an awful shame. Poe obviously doesn't undergo any sort of growth, and there's not any other new characters whose names I can even remember (outside of General Hux the caricature of evil and the old Empire, seriously I wouldn't be surprised if he's the son of one of the actors who played the exact same role in the original trilogy, except at least those characters had to cope with fear of Darth Vader and (in the deleted scenes of Jedi) actual moral dilemma with whether to blow up Endor in pure spite or not). The only character who grows is, well, Kylo Ren, who I will get to later on in this post once I start talking about the positives of this movie.
Luke had no speaking lines, Princess Leia was at best a spot character for nostalgia purposes only. R2D2 and C3PO were there for obligatory reference only.
In all, I guess that all of these complaints can be summed up as what I said earlier: the whole movie felt safe. They threw a lot of action in, constantly referred back to/plagiarized the original trilogy, and generally tried to deliver a movie that was as fun and thoughtless as possible.
All of that grousing aside, however, there were a few bright spots, reasons for hope, and, well, reasons why this was in fact a better movie than the prequels and a pretty fun and entertaining movie overall.
The biggest bright spots of this movie were clearly Han Solo, Kylo Ren, and their interaction/dynamic. I wish there had been more Kylo Ren in this movie; in particular, I'd have liked a series of flashbacks detailing his relationship with Luke, the rise and fall of the foundling Jedi order Luke was trying to create, and his fall to the Dark Side/manipulation by Snoke. I found his weakness particularly believable: for the first time, we see how a powerful warrior with a weak personality could be turned to serve the every whim of a Sith Lord. I always felt that it must've been something particularly traumatic to turn a character as strong as Darth Vader into a Sith, and obviously the prequels didn't deliver on that (yes he was weak-willed, but there is little to no relation between the Anakin Skywalker of the prequels and Darth Vader of the original trilogy). Kylo Ren, however, is completely believable as a Sith apprentice: he has no control of his emotions (particularly anger), struggles with his conscious at times, and feels he must prove himself as being a true Sith. He's a child with seemingly boundless potential power, and strangely enough he undergoes more character development and growth than all the good characters put together. He felt like a different character by the end of the movie. Meanwhile Harrison Ford put forth what I think is his strongest performance as Han Solo to date, and his character's death provided basically the only real emotional meat of the entire film.
Outside of that, the visuals were great, as I'd expect. The action was engaging, and there were few if any groan-worthy lines of dialogue; Lawrence Kasden's impact could really be felt throughout this film, as the script was simply in a higher class than any of the prequels'. Most importantly perhaps, scene-to-scene the movie felt fun, despite it's flaws. It felt like it didn't take itself too seriously, and the sets looked infinitely better than the CGI monstrosities of the prequel trilogy. They looked like real places where real people struggled to get by, and the consequent vast improvement in acting quality, I suspect, derives from this fact. Finally, it does feel like the story has room to expand and develop; the characters of Luke and Snoke are both still largely unexplored, and Rey clearly has a lot more going on in terms of family history than meets the eye. I just hope that they figure out something more to do with her, because as we saw with Neo in the Matrix trilogy, stories get less interesting when the protagonist has already hit a plateau in terms of development by the time the first movie ends.
Finally, the music was fantastic. I feel like this is almost assumed at this point for a Star Wars movie, but it's worth mentioning in any case.
Overall I guess I'd say that it felt like a classic Star Wars movie, even if it was lacking in a few areas. It was fast-paced and fun, but it's not one I'm anxious to watch again nor one that I feel will have much staying power in years to come; again, it's a far cry from Star Wars or The Empire Strikes Back. I suspect those two movies will be watched long after The Force Awakens vanishes from the public eye.
All of this information is coming second-hand, so it might be a bit off (as I haven't read the novel yet), but the Aftermath novel addresses your concerns in the first paragraph about how the Empire managed to last this long and get away unattended. Basically it's just that the events in ROTJ tipped the scale towards the rebellion side enough for them to gain most of the political control of the galaxy. However, the Empire is still large enough (and the rebellion forces too limited) that any decision to wipe out the other side would result in almost all of their forces getting wiped out as well. So, a treaty of non-violence was formed, with the Empire being forced back into a ridiculously small area in the outer rim (similar to the old expanded universe).
The New Republic secretly sanctioned (secretly so they honor the treaty) the Resistance to counter any threatening actions of the now-New Order. How they managed to not notice or foil the building of Starkiller Base is beyond me; I guess the Resistance was sanctioned when Starkiller Base was discovered, but I don't know for sure. The New Order knew the Resistance was obviously New Republic funded, which is why they blew up most of the New Republic's governing bodies.
Edit: Actually the internet says that the Resistance isn't funded by the New Republic, but by Leia who wants to make sure the New Order is in check. She petitioned for funding and got denied because the New Republic wanted to honor their treaty. Nevertheless the New Republic tolerated the Resistance's existence, which was enough for the New Order to blow them up. So, I was semi-right lol
I think Starkiller Base blowing up the New Republic government is fucking huge and that it was odd that TFA didn't show more of those repercussions. My guess is that JJ Abrams wanted to avoid how political the prequel trilogies had gotten. That being said, the New Republic Army (which is much larger than the Resistance, assuming Starkiller Base's shot didn't wipe out all of their army) should join the battle in Episode VII, now that the treaty is violated.
I agree that TFA was annoyingly similar to ANH, but I am not going to let this bother me too deeply until I see where the story goes from here. For all we know, JJ Abrams and Lucasfilm want the story to show how similar situations can develop completely different results depending on the times.
Also, I agree that TFA has so many holes in it, but remember that Disney will fill up every ounce of this story with all of its books, comics, video games, tv shows, etc. I agree this is a disservice to the movie (and people who just watch the movies), but people like me who follow Star Wars heavily will enjoy the hell out of this. Business is all about making money, after all.
Han dying makes sense for a lot of reasons (both plot-wise and business-wise). First off, they wanted him to die in the original trilogy. Second, Harrison Ford is a nightmare to work with (according to everyone). Thirdly, it sets up Episode VIII brilliantly (just look on the internet for more clarification because I don't want to retype stuff that's been posted by thousands of other people).
All I want in life is for Leia to kill Ben in Episode IX.
Still no clue on if Finn has the Force.
Rey being so bad ass so soon was another shock, but her talent will probably be explained in Episode VIII. My guess is one of Luke's apprentices was his wife (PLEASE BE MARA JADE... probs not.... Yoda's twin sister?) who was also very strong in the force, and Rey was their daughter. It also would explain his grief better and why he abandoned everyone else.
A lot of the story's choices have been discussed in detail all over the internet, so I don't need to talk about any more of them, but the one thing that I still can't fathom in TFA is Han and Leia splitting up. Growing up reading over 60 Star Wars EU books, Han and Leia stuck together through everything (including Chewbacca dying; their son dying; and their other son turning to the dark side, killing a lot of people, then dying), and their beautiful relationship was the one constant throughout the whole series. Their split will probably be covered in further detail in comics, but there better be a better reason than their son turning to the dark side and killing some people, because that won't cut it for me.
Also how do you guys think Ben's story will be told? Hopefully it's not all done with subtext in the next few movies and that a comic or book shows it all in more detail. If I have to wait for prequels to these sequels, though....
Also I am straight and I wouldn't mind Oscar Isaac fucking me.
I agree with a lot of your points, but there are a few expectations that you have that I don't think are fair
I agree completely with your points about the weapon. I also agree with a lot of your gripes with the plot. It was heavily rehashed, and I hope the sequels don't match the original trilogy to that degree of closeness. However, I take issue with some of your comments on character development. When you cite moments of Luke's growth, you cite examples from multiple movies. It's not fair to compare the whole original trilogy to one episode of the new trilogy. In addition, I think we have had crucial moments of character developments. Rey has to let go of her past on Jakku, and she accepts the mantle as the next Jedi. While losing Han didn't have the same punch as losing Obi-wan, Rey clearly looked up to Han a lot. We see from one of her first scenes that she is obsessed with the Rebellion, and she shows constant interest in the mythos of the war and its heroes. Yeah, she wasn't as close to Han as Luke was to Obi-wan. Han comes into the movie a lot later, and he's more of a hero figure than a friend. But I still think watching Han die was important for her growth; its the death of a hero. On to Finn. He has growth in the movie centered around his cowardice and desire to run. He goes from wanting to get as far from the First Order as he can, to landing on their base. He even stands and fights Kylo Ren with a weapon with which he has no experience. I'm not saying the development is complete, or even that it was perfectly executed, but for one movie out of three I think we saw a passable amount.
The point I was making was that it took Luke two whole movies to arrive at the point in his arc where Rey appears to be right now. In this sense, it is fair to compare these two because TFA tried to accelerate/skip any sense of training/growth of Rey before she became in tune with her abilities, and I'm calling it out on that. There was no Binary Sunset scene, no Burning Homestead scene, and Han's sacrifice was not about her but about Kylo Ren, while Obi Wan's sacrifice was clearly about Luke. The point is that even just within the original movie Luke grew a lot more and was a much more relatable character in numerous ways. Finn is actually much closer to Luke in terms of the setup of his character being one we can empathize with, but like I said, it felt like he was stuck in a rut the entire movie. I'll agree that he certainly does more growing than Rey does, but he has at best a Han Solo-esque role in this trilogy. Rey is clearly the lead, and I didn't buy her arc or assumption of powers (rather than growing into them).
Again, it strikes me as being very similar to Neo's arc in the Matrix trilogy, and that obviously concerns me. Except even Neo had his failures that he learned from. It's almost ironic that Kylo Ren's telling her 'you need a mentor' was exactly what I was thinking, except that apparently she doesn't. And that's really the crux of my point. There's no Obi Wan, and so I couldn't buy the character of Rey.
All of this information is coming second-hand, so it might be a bit off (as I haven't read the novel yet), but the Aftermath novel addresses your concerns in the first paragraph about how the Empire managed to last this long and get away unattended. Basically it's just that the events in ROTJ tipped the scale towards the rebellion side enough for them to gain most of the political control of the galaxy. However, the Empire is still large enough (and the rebellion forces too limited) that any decision to wipe out the other side would result in almost all of their forces getting wiped out as well. So, a treaty of non-violence was formed, with the Empire being forced back into a ridiculously small area in the outer rim (similar to the old expanded universe).
The New Republic secretly sanctioned (secretly so they honor the treaty) the Resistance to counter any threatening actions of the now-New Order. How they managed to not notice or foil the building of Starkiller Base is beyond me; I guess the Resistance was sanctioned when Starkiller Base was discovered, but I don't know for sure. The New Order knew the Resistance was obviously New Republic funded, which is why they blew up most of the New Republic's governing bodies.
Edit: Actually the internet says that the Resistance isn't funded by the New Republic, but by Leia who wants to make sure the New Order is in check. She petitioned for funding and got denied because the New Republic wanted to honor their treaty. Nevertheless the New Republic tolerated the Resistance's existence, which was enough for the New Order to blow them up. So, I was semi-right lol
I think Starkiller Base blowing up the New Republic government is fucking huge and that it was odd that TFA didn't show more of those repercussions. My guess is that JJ Abrams wanted to avoid how political the prequel trilogies had gotten. That being said, the New Republic Army (which is much larger than the Resistance, assuming Starkiller Base's shot didn't wipe out all of their army) should join the battle in Episode VII, now that the treaty is violated.
I agree that TFA was annoyingly similar to ANH, but I am not going to let this bother me too deeply until I see where the story goes from here. For all we know, JJ Abrams and Lucasfilm want the story to show how similar situations can develop completely different results depending on the times.
Also, I agree that TFA has so many holes in it, but remember that Disney will fill up every ounce of this story with all of its books, comics, video games, tv shows, etc. I agree this is a disservice to the movie (and people who just watch the movies), but people like me who follow Star Wars heavily will enjoy the hell out of this. Business is all about making money, after all.
Han dying makes sense for a lot of reasons (both plot-wise and business-wise). First off, they wanted him to die in the original trilogy. Second, Harrison Ford is a nightmare to work with (according to everyone). Thirdly, it sets up Episode VIII brilliantly (just look on the internet for more clarification because I don't want to retype stuff that's been posted by thousands of other people).
All I want in life is for Leia to kill Ben in Episode IX.
Still no clue on if Finn has the Force.
Rey being so bad ass so soon was another shock, but her talent will probably be explained in Episode VIII. My guess is one of Luke's apprentices was his wife (PLEASE BE MARA JADE... probs not.... Yoda's twin sister?) who was also very strong in the force, and Rey was their daughter. It also would explain his grief better and why he abandoned everyone else.
A lot of the story's choices have been discussed in detail all over the internet, so I don't need to talk about any more of them, but the one thing that I still can't fathom in TFA is Han and Leia splitting up. Growing up reading over 60 Star Wars EU books, Han and Leia stuck together through everything (including Chewbacca dying; their son dying; and their other son turning to the dark side, killing a lot of people, then dying), and their beautiful relationship was the one constant throughout the whole series. Their split will probably be covered in further detail in comics, but there better be a better reason than their son turning to the dark side and killing some people, because that won't cut it for me.
Also how do you guys think Ben's story will be told? Hopefully it's not all done with subtext in the next few movies and that a comic or book shows it all in more detail. If I have to wait for prequels to these sequels, though....
Also I am straight and I wouldn't mind Oscar Isaac fucking me.
Not going to really respond except to say that what is in the movies needs to stand on it's own. Saying that it is explained in some other medium means very little to me. You can feel differently if you wish, but plot holes filled in by external material are still just plot holes to me.
A lot of the criticism here seems to be focused on how the TFA didn't deliver in terms of plot/setting/character development/whatever. And I agree up to a point that yeah, it was very New Hope-esque. And I think given the expectations for a new film, it was smart of JJ to play it smart and appeal to the fans in terms of the plot. For me, TFA was all about setting a groundwork, a base plot/characters to work with for the future. with how the prequels panned out, it seemed pretty obvious to me that they didn't want to blow this shot by over complicating things, and that sticking close to what worked before would bring back the "magic" of star wars. I thought that "super multi-planet destroying weapon" was pretty dumb and it went down pretty easily all things considered, but all things considered, the movie felt like how star wars is supposed to be. I'm not sure exactly what expectations people had if they came out disappointed
so in regard to bringing up people's passion for star wars following the shitty prequels, the movie was a huge success. maybe it didn't answer certain questions and perhaps it won't hold up a couple years from now (at this point i would personally rather rewatch the original trilogy), but it's only one movie. it's clear that this is going to be a journey, and that the next movies are going to branch out on their own, and probably (hopefully?) answer many of the questions brought up in this one (especially the whole "fall to the dark side thing," something that I feel has never been explained well in any star wars medium)
Rey I think does have somewhere to go, she isn't a Jedi and that's why she's gone to Luke. She's going to get her training, and I assume deal with the whole demons surrounding waiting for her family. I don't think Rey really is in tune with her abilities. The only thing that's clear so far is that she's obviously quite talented and very strong with the force. I don't think that means her growth as a character is complete at all, even if she's already in a stronger place then luke post new hope. The thing with Rey though is that it does feel like she's missing something. My dad said she doesn't have the charisma, and so while maybe that isn't the right word, I'm sort of inclined to feel the same way. I just think at this point, there's a lot of different ways the series could go, and I don't think it's entirely fair at this point to believe that we've hit the ceiling in terms of plot. Now that we've had an introduction to all the characters, i expect the sequels to take them all to a new dimension in terms of development.
Not going to really respond except to say that what is in the movies needs to stand on it's own. Saying that it is explained in some other medium means very little to me. You can feel differently if you wish, but plot holes filled in by external material are still just plot holes to me.
That's not really fair though, is it? Considering how RotJ ended, how exactly could they have bridged that gap while at the same time doing all the things they did in the movie? How do you set up the first order while at the same time keeping the rest of TFA together? I don't think that at least at this point that sort of information was really necessary. Star wars is a super complex universe, and I don't think it's really fair to say that it's "external material" considering that technically that external material is also part of the story itself. It's not a plot hole just because it's covered elsewhere not in the movie.
Also just going to respond to Jalmont and say that I feel a sequel to a movie should be able to bridge the gap between the two without needing external supporting material to explain what is going on. I think this goes for any sequel in any movie franchise: it is fair to assume knowledge of the previous movies, it is not fair to assume any additional knowledge on the part of the audience. Not putting this in hide tags because I think this is a fairly obvious universal truth; like I said though, if that requirement of additional material doesn't bother some people then that's fine, but it is a problem to me and I suspect it is a problem to the vast majority of moviegoers.
Holy cow when I was watching the movie and I saw Snoke for the first time I commented that he looked like Gollum. I had no idea that actually was Andy Serkis...
Actually, Han Solo says "what the hell" in the first Star Wars, and says "I'll see you in Hell" in The Empire Strikes Back. This was probably ad libbing or just them writing an English phrase that might be out of place without realizing it, so it was later added to the extended universe that certain planet's cultures do believe in a hell to make the lines make sense. Obviously the EU is not canon anymore but there's no reason they can't bring this little tidbit back. But the point is it's something that's been said since the beginning, so it's not really a big deal.
Anyway, overall I really liked this movie, even though to me it seemed like a movie for a Star Wars film series that never stopped, not as a huge spectacle rebirth of the franchise. I agree there is a lot of fanservice and parallels to the first film, although in a way I feel like they chose the wrong things to reference. We get the Death Star climax for the third time now (especially when that was a big gripe people had with Return of the Jedi) and we don't really get much of the legacy of Darth Vader and the Emperor. I don't believe the Emperor is mentioned even once in the whole story, and it's not like he was just one of many leaders, he pretty much created the empire on his own so yeah...
The ending was kinda cool though, my cousin said it reminded him a lot of meeting Red at the top of Mt. Silver and I think that was a cool observation. For the record, I agree with the theory that Rey is Luke Skywalker's daughter (although I thought Han's daughter at first, but I feel that would be revealed this movie if it were) and that Supreme Leader Snoke is really Darth Plagueis. Although I'm not so sure about the latter after seeing the movie, since Plagueis really only exists as a character related to Emperor Palpatine who was not mentioned at all, and they seem to be avoiding things established in the prequels for the most part.
But I think the most important thing is that I did genuinely like our three new leads and wanted to see what they were up to, and that's what makes it a good movie to me.
Also just going to respond to Jalmont and say that I feel a sequel to a movie should be able to bridge the gap between the two without needing external supporting material to explain what is going on. I think this goes for any sequel in any movie franchise: it is fair to assume knowledge of the previous movies, it is not fair to assume any additional knowledge on the part of the audience. Not putting this in hide tags because I think this is a fairly obvious universal truth; like I said though, if that requirement of additional material doesn't bother some people then that's fine, but it is a problem to me and I suspect it is a problem to the vast majority of moviegoers.
i mean, like you say, that is pretty much a universal truth and i don't disagree with you.
i just wouldn't call the answers to any of the questions you raised as necessary information. none of the answers to those questions you brought up would advance the plot in a positive way that would warrant their inclusion. it is by no means a requirement that you need to read the additional material, other than if you want context to what is happening. it's there if you are interested in the world. in that sense, TFA isn't really even a true sequel. it's clear that they are starting a different story that's going to go in its own direction regardless of what happened earlier, and so i don't really feel as if a lot of context was needed (although i'm not saying it would've hurt!)
and that's not to say, i disagree with some of your points at all, like i said, i personally thought the premise of the super-weapon was dumb, and that setup was a little confused, especially w/ regards to the "Resistance")
On another note I was thinking it would be really cool if they did the sequels where they would have Rey and Kylo go dark/light side respectively and then have an ending where they reconcile. Probably too ambitious but a man can dream!
I really liked the force awakens. I'm not too sure where to put it in my list of best movies in the Star Wars series. It's definitely better than the phantom menace and attack of the clones. I would probably put it after revenge of the Sith and return of the Jedi. Dare I out it 2nd to the Empire strikes back?
The new characters were good actors-the person who played Finn was British but he threw an American accent!
I left the theater amused. I think that is probably the best way to describe the film. While some scenes are non-essential and character development for Finn / Rey was truly lacking it was meant to jump-start the series. I'm sure episode 8 and 9 will make this one feel more important in a total sense. That being said the amount of fucking homages in the third act was truly disgusting and served no purpose. I get it, you could have done something entirely different with Kylo Ren and have had the same impact. Regardless he was a well-scripted character.
Kylo Ren made me laugh so hard. Whenever he got mad or did something wrong he would slash the nearest control panel with his light saber, destroying it in the process. There were a lot of other comedic moments like with Han Solo when he grabbed Chewbacca's crossbow during that one battle. It was certainly more comedic than most other Star Wars films!
I found the movie quite enjoyable. It did appeal heavily to nostalgia, but that's far from the worst direction it could have gone. Blowing up the third Death Star in four movies was a little unfortunate (seriously, it must feel a little repetitive if you watch them in order), and my main gripe with the story. The "brave rebels assault an evil superweapon and barely manage to destroy it" plot was used all over the former expanded universe, so it felt a little stale as they were doing it over again this time, trench run and everything. I have high hopes for the next movie, which probably will have its own plot and narrative devices. But if Rey quits her training early to go help her captive friends on some other planet, and learns a terrible secret about her family when fighting for their rescue, I'm going to facepalm as loud as I can in the theatre.
Some people seem to dislike that Finn and Rey managed to beat Kylo Ren in a lightsaber battle, but I found it plausible that Kylo Ren was just a very mediocre sword fighter. It's not like he had many opponents to spar against, and neither had Luke, who was his mentor, so he had few opportunities to get very skilled in the first place. Add a bleeding wound, emotional trauma and face a soldier and a Force user, and the scales would become somewhat even. At any rate, the fight choreography seemed a lot more plausible here than the extensive wirework and CGI of the prequels. It looked like they were trying to hit one another, and not just clack their blades together again and again.
Film was good and an admirable effort by Abrams after the prequels, but it doesn't come close to touching my top 20 of the year. My thoughts (NO SPOILERS)
Positives:
- The comedy was excellent throughout
- Production design, special effects, practical effects, music and overall tone was on point and definitely felt very 'Star Wars'
- Kylo Ren was characterised brilliantly, as was Finn
- I enjoyed how the film dealt with Stormtroopers and the repercussions of their actions
- Cinematography in general was magnificent
- One of the most enjoyable films of 2015 (though leagues under Mad Max); those X-wings skimming along the waterfront looked superb and was prob the scene that emoted the most to me
- Emotional beats were hit very well
- References wear neat and not overdone
- BB8 is a neat addition
Negatives:
- The script is the film's largest flaw. It's so similar to IV that it feels more like a rip-off than a homage (though I preferred this to A New Hope)
- World-building was surprisingly underdeveloped. We don't know enough about the Resistance, Republic or First Order for the stakes to feel high - as a result, the film feels a little small-stakes in the final act, and a certain weapon scene is cold to the audience
- Chrome Stormtrooper is underused - despite the heavy marketing
- Certain elements definitely felt out of place - an irrelevant action scene, for one, and due to practical effects, the CGI characters of Snoke and Maz were really jarring
- Daisy Ridley was excellent as Rey but her character wasn't flawed enough for me to form an attachment to her like I did with Finn
- Domnhall Gleeson was horribly miscast as Hux. Horribly.
- Exposition in the first 10 minutes is v clunky, and the way the protagonists group together is v contrived.
Overall though, my 2nd favourite Star Wars (behind Empire Strikes Back), and a solid film that's receiving both too much praise (due to nostalgia) and too much criticism (due to contrarians and people who had their expectations way too high).
- Certain elements definitely felt out of place - an irrelevant action scene, for one, and due to practical effects, the CGI characters of Snoke and Maz were really jarring
Snoke isn't actually present though, he's a projection from another location so idk how you could really have him look "alive"?
I thought it was a great movie, only had two real gripes with it, both related to earning the moment. Firstly, Finn should never have been able to swordfight. He states in the movie that the scene at the beginning was his first dispatch so he should have had minimal training with and against swords. He looked far too proficient with a blade to be believable against a Sith apprentice, even if you assume Ren just sucks. The other gripe was the romantic implications, I thought they needed another scene to be earned. Specifically, Finn makes the comment that "you looked at me like no one else ever has" to Rey, but we never actually see that moment. I would have liked one further scene of relationship developing with emotional impact to earn the tension at the end. At the moment the biggest bonding moment we see is their mutual jubilation of survival after escaping Jakku. I expect there was in fact such a scene that was cut and will show up in the extended edition.
That stuck out to me in particular since the movie had otherwise done a great job of earning critical skills, most notably Rey's technical proficiency, and especially Poe's piloting ability (those maneuvers on Maz's planet were pretty sick).
I appreciated that the movie was mimicing the initial story line from the original trilogy and I'm excited to see where they subvert expectations going forward. I too expect Rey to have relevant parentage, but I wouldn't be surprised if she was also a lost child of Han and Leia, and sibling to Ren (possibly alluded to in her visions after touching Luke's lightsaber).
From a 'neutral' point of view, I just think the film was completely... average. The character development was lacking throughout, and the time spent on showing the backgrounds and motives of each character was too little (and in many cases, nonexistant). The interactions between characters didnt seem very natural either... when characters met they went from acting like total unknowns (that's normal) to ''omg you've been my best friend since I was 5'' in just a 2 minute conversation.
And about the story... there was just too little plot, and it felt like they could have fledged it in just 20 minutes instead of 180+, and that's without counting how obvious everything was from minute 1, especially if you had watched episode 4.
So honestly, I don't think this film puts much on the table. Yeah, it has what made Star Wars popular 40 years ago, which is mostly the cinematics, spaceship fights, dark villains, special effects... but then again, that was something new and exciting 40 years ago, because Star Wars was a pioneer and made a breakthrough on special effects. Nowadays, we are so used to it, it doesnt quite do the trick, and the film has the same issues the originals had (little plot, not much plausibility, mediocre to bad character development - and even in the old movies it was better than in ep7). So yeah, I think this was overall weak, and I felt like the only thing Episode VII had going for it is... being better than Episodes I - III. But is that even an accomplishment?
Kylo Ren made me laugh so hard. Whenever he got mad or did something wrong he would slash the nearest control panel with his light saber, destroying it in the process. There were a lot of other comedic moments like with Han Solo when he grabbed Chewbacca's crossbow during that one battle. It was certainly more comedic than most other Star Wars films!
Agreed. It's funny, people compare Kylo Ren's performance to whiny Anakin from Episode 2, but with Ren I think he gives off that bit more emo vibe that raises it above just being annoying. Not to mention his tantrums are funny as well, you'd actually think with the whole Sith thing about embracing their emotions and such for darkside power that you'd almost expect more to act out in frustration over being cold, calculating, and not showing emotions like with Palpatine and Maul (ironically those are more Jedi-esq traits if you ask me).
Overall loved the move. Vastly better than the prequels and at least on par with 4. Not quite at 5 or 6 level, but assuming 8 and 9 build on it, it could end up there.
The other gripe was the romantic implications, I thought they needed another scene to be earned. Specifically, Finn makes the comment that "you looked at me like no one else ever has" to Rey, but we never actually see that moment. I would have liked one further scene of relationship developing with emotional impact to earn the tension at the end. At the moment the biggest bonding moment we see is their mutual jubilation of survival after escaping Jakku. I expect there was in fact such a scene that was cut and will show up in the extended edition.
I guess am one of the few people that didn't really see any of Finn's/Rey's interactions romantic. While on paper, that quote does sound pretty romantic, the script established immediately that Finn was raised from birth solely to serve the New Order (implying he is at least somewhat socially fucked up in the head). Knowing that, the scene with the "you looked at me like no one else ever has" quote reminded me more of a neglected child finding someone who cares about him (similar to how excited he got when Poe became his friend). With that mindset, even the scenes where Finn and Rey meet up in Starkiller Base, and the end scene with the forehead kiss, felt more like a platonic, but still beautifully genuine, relationship to me.
Actually, I think that the script was brilliant, much better than some of the original films
I do think that it kind of didn't make since that two novices beat a light saber pro (Kylo Ren) but really it is highlighting the fact that Rey was born with the force I her-meaning she must be Luke Skywalker's daughter.
I would put it above the Phantom. Menace and Attack of the clones. I would also put it above return of the Jedi. I would probably place it before the 5th movie so it is between 1st-3rd place in terms of its ranking. It would say it was my favourite movie of 2015.
I also liked how they didn't go over the top the Finn Rey relationship-the fact that it is more of a friendly relationship makes me believe that they are probably related to each other as we may find out in the next few films.
However-the next one isn't out till 2017! I don't think I can wait so long.
Yeah, that's why his face is all messed up, he was attempted to be murdered by Sidious, but he did manage to survive somehow (which wouldn't be too surprising because his entire character is about trying to cheat death). And that's the only thing I don't like about the theory. It seriously undercuts Darth Sidious' competence, basically saying that he failed to kill Darth Plagueis and that Darth Plagueis was really still alive behind the scenes the whole time waiting to take over once Sidious was out of the way. Kind of a man-behind-the-man situation, which would be odd, because I feel Darth Sidious was established to be extremely competent and a master manipulator so it would be weird for him to miss something huge like this.
On the other hand, we know next to nothing about Snoke from Episode 7, so I feel like it would make sense to have him revealed as a character we already know. But like I said earlier, the fact that Darth Sidious was not really mentioned at all so far, and the fact that they seem to be avoiding the prequels, makes me doubtful.
The Plagueis thing won't work unless Disney moves from retconning EU to completely dumping on it -- Plagueis wasn't a human, he was a Muun. Snore is supposed to be a new character anyway.
How the flying f*ck did an entirely male race of genetically replicated men suddenly have half of their force replaced by women? I don't want to sound sexist or anything, but this detail which is probably there to keep society happy is just plain wrong. In order to be a clone, you must share every genetic trait - including gender - with the parent organism. Episode two confirms that all of the clones are... well, clones of each other and that they are all male. It is then confirmed in episode three that the republic's clones become the empire's stormtroopers, meaning that the stormtroopers must be genetically identical to the enhanced version of Jango Fett's DNA which episode 2 confirms the clones are.
If Division One (forgive me if I'm misremembering the name here) is truly formed from the remnants of the Empire, then surely that means that they continued to use the same DNA sample that they used to mass-produce the stormtroopers. Therefore, the prevalence of female voices coming out of stormtroopers' mics just feels out of place and like its breaking one of the most simply implemented rules of the Star Wars universe.
Of course I could just be over-thinking this, but the goal they hoped to achieve through doing this is already achieved through the fact that there are now female non-stormtroopers within Division One as opposed to the entirely male profession it has shown itself to be in the original trilogy. Therefore it feels arbitrary and out of place imo.
Once again, I am not sexist in any way, shape or form. However, the lack of explanation given beyond an assumption which is probably correct (social protocol) just makes me wonder how they would forget something so simple despite the sheer amount of detail which went into the other scenes (particularly early on).
it's called the First Order, and the troops stopped being clones before Episode IV
Obviously, any more than a small portion of an elite fighting force being female is just pandering and completely unrealistic but it doesn't canonically conflict with the fact of the clones having been phased out long before the events of the seventh movie.
I mean hell, Finn is black. If he were a Jango clone, he would be white.
Storm Troopers haven't been clones since A New Hope... By that point only Vader's personal Unit, the 501st, were still clones. They started conscripting from then on. I'm not sure why they would not allow women into the Storm Trooper ranks if they beat the tests...
Also; I really enjoyed the film. I've now seen it three times, and although there a few plotholey type things, I still really enjoyed it. BB8 was fantastic and a worthy successor to R2. I liked how they developed Finn and Ray. Also the cinematography was absolutely perfect. Some of the shots were exactly what the film needed.
