Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[Josh]

Mega stone = huge opportunity cost. Not being able to hold lefties and losing Regenerator once you mega are flaws, but the cost of using a mega stone is a much more relevant drawback, with all of the excellent megas there are in ORAS. It's so much easier fitting regular bro on a team than it is fitting mega bro, hell if I had to guess I'd say reg bro has been used at least twice as much in high level play, but on mobile and cba getting usage stats. Usage =/= viability as we all know but it definitely does have correlation a lot of the time. It's very fair for reg bro to be a subrank ahead of mega.

 

[robofiend]

Some thoughts based on things I've seen in this thread:

Bisharp to A: Not super opposed to this, though idk. With more Brelooms, Keldeos, M-Scizors and M-Sableyes in OU than ever before, Bisharp has a lot of factors working against it. It's still an undeniably good mon, especially with Lando's everywhere, but I usually don't see it providing A+ rank utility against most teams in the current meta. Megazam and other similar sweepers who should get run over by it have adapted with Encore/Sub to turn Sharp's mindgames against it. While it's a bit unfair to downgrade Bisharp based on the mindgames it causes, it is true that you often need to make a string of good predictions to use Bisharp to its full extent (i.e. set up without taking damage, avoid too much Chomp helmet damage, keep Keldeo from being too effective, etc.) while other top mons are considerably more forgiving when it comes to just spamming attacks and taking home the W.

Diancie to A: For sure. It's one of my favorite mons but it faces a lot of risk when dealing with rockers like Lando and Garchomp everywhere and being super predictable most of the time, especially since Diancie is best utilized on teams with flying types like Talonflame or Thundurus. The rising popularity of Venusaur, Excadrill and Scarf Lando are all reasons to think twice when building a team around it, though it's still a solid A rank.

Rotom-W to A: Agree. I rarely see a team that doesn't benefit from having Rotom-W on it. It's a huge blessing for offense, patching up defense against Lando, Chomp, Heatran and birdspam, while also providing momentum boosts and support with Wisp/Volt Switch/Pain Split all three of which are awesome and notoriously hard to predict. While it has a tendency to get worn down, Pain Split helps keep status from becoming a huge issue and can even take big chunks out of cheeky opposing walls who try to come in and abuse Rotom's lack of offense.

M-Metagross to A: On the fence. Meta can be super threatening and with the right moves and maybe some luck it runs over everything in the game. The current popularity of M-Scizor, Slowbro and Lando/Chomp are detrimental to it, but it's not as if the Metagross user can't see some of these threats coming. Tpunch is a great option against the bro, Ice Punch is awesome because of how predictable Lando/Chomp are and how much it can help to support other teammates who fear them, and both of its STABS (well, three, if you count Bullet Punch) are fairly threatening. While it does find itself with a lot more problems than it used to, this might be because the meta has simply entered the "valley" where Metagross is underchecked, similar to how M-Manectric used to be really good, then it became bad for a while, and now it's useful again.

 

[Numera]

Okay, I acknowledge that I made a mistake on the moves, please do not speculate any more on that :(

----------> A?
Rotom-Wash From A- Rank to A Rank: Agree
Rotom-Wash is probably one of, if not the, most annoying Pokemon in Competitive Battling; I believe that it is one of the finest competitively engineered Pokemon to have ever existed. It has a diverse combination of great defensive typing, movepool, and stats that make it a great defensive pivot. The first thing that comes to mind would be the fact that it has two ways of crippling opponents, in Will'O'Wisp and Thunder Wave. In addition to this, it has Levitate, essentially making it a great switch-in to Ground Types, which he can burn or use a STAB Hydro Pump. For all of these reasons, Rotom-Wash fits well on many defensive cores and pairs well with other defensive Pokemon, including Ferrothorn, Landorus-Therian, and Heatran. Rotom-Wash is usable on many kinds of play styles, and has few drawbacks. I agree that the Washing Machine, which is probably one of the best pivots in the game, is deserving of A Rank for many reasons.

In all honesty there's a major flaw that Rotom-W has as a pivot and that is that it is merely a blanket check. Sure, it checks and "counters" so much of the metagame, making it an extremely splash-able pivot in theory, but put it this way: Rotom-W tries to be a bulky pivot, but is just so easily worn down that everything it claims to counter can break through in the end. As a bulky pivot, it is expected to come in against a lot, and rocks don't help it much either. I just feel that against offensive teams, without the reliable recovery that other defensive pivots have (hello Slowbro), it's worn down way too easily due to the constant pressure provided by offence (one of the more dominant playstyles in this metagame), giving it a hard time in today's metagame. As a result, I can't put it into the same rank as fellow defensive pivot Slowbro, or bring it above Spdef pivot Jirachi and Celebi the pursuit escaper and nasty passer. (who gets recovery n_n)

 

[Puralux]

Nominating Latios to S

In the OU metagame, Latios is comparable to a "horseman of the apocalypse". The thing that made me thinking this is how threatening he is, even for his common checks. In fact, his checks are not impassable, as they can be removed depending on what his third coverage is (Yes, i know, this may be well-known). While some of them can get punished in mindgames (he can take one pursuit), others can be intercepted with hazard pressure or with smart switches (this one includes keeping him lurking). Eventually, pursuit can be easily scouted by looking at your opponent’s team and evalutate if his team is weak to Lati@s or if there are some mons that benefit of the removal of it, including the fact of maintaining hazard pressure, which is one of the main reasons of why tyranitar is often seen on non-sand hazard stack balanced teams. And when there’s a tyranitar in a non-sand team, we all know that it 100% carries pursuit. Examples are sand teams with Charizard-Y or Keldeo (or with both) and volturn with Weavile/Assault Vest (or mega) Metagross. The first one, usually, does not use tyranitar as a smooth rock user, as all the team would have more disadvantage against things like charizard-y (If Excadrill is Swords Dance) and Mega Alakazam, and it would not maintain the same hazard pressure that the scarf and the band ones does. That’s why, usually, it carries chople berry on sand teams (This may be irrilevant, but it is just for curiosity).

Once his checks/counters are gone, Latios poses an incredibly threatening presence for the opposing team, with his outstanding wallbreaking capabilities. Especially in late game, where the bulkiest may be already pressured by hazards and in range of his moves. About range, Latios is one of the most dangerous mons regarding it, as his moves often put mons in range of other teammates or vice versa. Switching is often one of the best weapons he has when there are no trappers (or if they are gone), as it is one of the mons which works greatly at the right moment, creating momentum. Calm mind Latios is an underrated set that poses an extremely dangerous threat if used correctly, and it is without a doubt the most difficult viable move to predict in a latios. Even Mega Alakazam fails to 2hko 100% of the times with shadow ball/dazzling gleam after one calm mind (34% chance), while Clefable fails to 2hko always, and it is swept away easily with a more-than-sufficent-2hko boosted psyshock. Latios is also, hands down, the best scald switchin in this metagame, the primary check to Keldeo, Manaphy and primary counter to Charizard-Y that is splashed on a team.

Latios is a centralizing power and a classic “Effective in many situations” mon. Combining this with his spikes immunity, Stealth rock neutrality, well speed tier and generally positive overall stats and you got one of the most efficent and dangerous mons in the metagame.

Happy 2016 to all you, guys.

 

[GlassVeins]

Nominating Latios to S

In the OU metagame, Latios is comparable to a "horseman of the apocalypse". The thing that made me thinking this is how threatening he is, even for his common checks. In fact, his checks are not impassable, as they can be removed depending on what his third coverage is (Yes, i know, this may be well-known). While some of them can get punished in mindgames (he can take one pursuit), others can be intercepted with hazard pressure or with smart switches (this one includes keeping him lurking). Eventually, pursuit can be easily scouted by looking at your opponent’s team and evalutate if his team is weak to Lati@s or if there are some mons that benefit of the removal of it, including the fact of maintaining hazard pressure, which is one of the main reasons of why tyranitar is often seen on non-sand hazard stack balanced teams. And when there’s a tyranitar in a non-sand team, we all know that it 100% carries pursuit. Examples are sand teams with Charizard-Y or Keldeo (or with both) and volturn with Weavile/Assault Vest (or mega) Metagross. The first one, usually, does not use tyranitar as a smooth rock user, as all the team would have more disadvantage against things like charizard-y (If Excadrill is Swords Dance) and Mega Alakazam, and it would not maintain the same hazard pressure that the scarf and the band ones does. That’s why, usually, it carries chople berry on sand teams (This may be irrilevant, but it is just for curiosity).

Once his checks/counters are gone, Latios poses an incredibly threatening presence for the opposing team, with his outstanding wallbreaking capabilities. Especially in late game, where the bulkiest may be already pressured by hazards and in range of his moves. About range, Latios is one of the most dangerous mons regarding it, as his moves often put mons in range of other teammates or vice versa. Switching is often one of the best weapons he has when there are no trappers (or if they are gone), as it is one of the mons which works greatly at the right moment, creating momentum. Calm mind Latios is an underrated set that poses an extremely dangerous threat if used correctly, and it is without a doubt the most difficult viable move to predict in a latios. Even Mega Alakazam fails to 2hko at 100% with shadow ball/dazzling gleam after one calm mind (34% chance), while Clefable fails to 2hko always, and it is swept away easily with a more-than-sufficent-2hko boosted psyshock. Latios is also, hands down, the best scald switchin in this metagame, the primary check to Keldeo, Manaphy and primary counter to Charizard-Y that is splashed on a team.

Latios is a centralizing power and a classic “Effective in many situations” mon. Combining this with his spikes immunity, Stealth rock neutrality, well speed tier and generally positive overall stats and you got one of the most efficent and dangerous mons in the metagame.

Happy 2016 to all you, guys.

This is a perfectly reasonable nomination, and I certainly agree that it should be S. Latios has always been a top threat because he's just so splashable and powerful. I feel like your otherwise excellent post didn't directly address one really important thing here: what's changed in the meta for it. I'd say that the rise of tankChomp and lando-t are pretty big on the list. Shadow tag being banned actually helps it too, because it can't be trapped after it uses a draco meteor so easily. Also, it can hammer non-cm sableye. also, defog support is invaluable!
There are a couple of meta trends that don't help it though, like weavile, clefable, scarf hoopa-u, pursuit metagross and t-tar, and scizor. however, few of those can actually switch in bar clef, and it doesn't take tonnes of team support to remove them.

Happy 2016 to you too!

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

Salamence to Unranked

I think Salamence is outclassed at everything it can attempt to do. Even its niche as a defensive Defogger is what I would say at stake, due to Zapdos having better Special Attack and not as bad of an Ice weakness, as well as Latias, what with it being more powerful due to being able to get away with holding a Life Orb and also in being able to invest in Special Attack so it is able to hit harder, as well as better special bulk and no 4x weaknesses. Also, I think Salamence can be beaten by Hippowdon and Clefable, while Latias can at least hurt the hippo with Draco Meteor, as well as damage Clefable with Psyshock. When you put all of this together, Salamence just doesn't have a place in OU.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Salamence to Unranked

I think Salamence is outclassed at everything it can attempt to do. Even its niche as a defensive Defogger is what I would say at stake, due to Zapdos having better Special Attack and not as bad of an Ice weakness, as well as Latias, what with it being more powerful due to being able to get away with holding a Life Orb and also in being able to invest in Special Attack so it is able to hit harder, as well as better special bulk and no 4x weaknesses. Also, I think Salamence can be beaten by Hippowdon and Clefable, while Latias can at least hurt the hippo with Draco Meteor, as well as damage Clefable with Psyshock. When you put all of this together, Salamence just doesn't have a place in OU.

I agree. Anything Salamence can do, a competitively relative Dragon can do better, and even it's Defogging trait, the only merit it has in OU, is outclassed by other defoggers, including Latios and Latias. Salamence cannot be offensive, because there are so many Dragons that to do that job better. Latios, Garchomp, Kyurem-Black, the list goes on and on. Moxie Offensive sets aren't really good any more as they are easily walled (Even at +1), and Mixed Sets in OU are just bad. The same thing goes for Dragon Dance, as Dragonite does that better, too. Unfortunately, Salamence has kinda been thrown into disuse, and shouldn't be ranked, as it's a virtually useless Poke nowadays. Definitely unranked.

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

Quite true. Salamence looks like a solid option on paper, but in practice, it is outclassed, and quite hopelessly so, as anything you can think of for it to do, something else can do it to a much better effect. Kyurem-B is a better mixed attacker, Mega Charizard X is a better Dragon Dancer, Latias is a better Defogger, the list goes on for quite a ways.

 

[ArcanePhoenix]

Mence was hit quite hard with the dragon nerf in gen 6.
DD? Zard is better(if you can afford the mega slot), Nite outclasses.
Defog? Weak to SR, which reduces its bulk as defensive pivot a lot.
And as mentioned the Latis(thanks to higher speed and neutral SR dmg) get away with LO which makes them better at special attacking.
Unrank it... it kinda deserves it.

 

[Kibblecat]

On a similar note, Blissey should probably go to unranked too following the Shadow Tag ban. People can throw around the 'usable SpA' card all they like, the biggest thing keeping Blissey in D was Shed Shell... it barely even 2HKOs most Ferrothorn spreads with Flamethrower. If anyone wants to seriously argue hitting Chomp/Landoge with Ice Beam is enough to rank this, I'll gladly concede, but if you need to replace your Chansey with a Blissey just to bait any of of those, your team probably has more problems... I don't see anyone arguing that one seriously. There's just no (good) reason to use this in OU anymore now that being Gothitelle fodder is irrelevant.

 

[Vert]

the reason to use blissey is its cm set which has gotten considerably more useful when stall just lost their best check to manaphy. blissey can also actually beat taunt gengar without having to afford specially defensive mega eye

 

[Giagantic]

On a similar note, Blissey should probably go to unranked too following the Shadow Tag ban. People can throw around the 'usable SpA' card all they like, the biggest thing keeping Blissey in D was Shed Shell... it barely even 2HKOs most Ferrothorn spreads with Flamethrower. If anyone wants to seriously argue hitting Chomp/Landoge with Ice Beam is enough to rank this, I'll gladly concede, but if you need to replace your Chansey with a Blissey just to bait any of of those, your team probably has more problems... I don't see anyone arguing that one seriously. There's just no (good) reason to use this in OU anymore now that being Gothitelle fodder is irrelevant.

Gotta agree with Vertex here, Blissey has a niche in the Overused Tier ranging from the aforementioned Calm Mind Set, to the simple fact that Blissey can actually run offensive moves other then Seismic toss which Chansey is stuck with. It also has the ability to run Leftovers meaning that in a sand team you could potentially opt for Blissey as a special sponge that wouldn't be worn down by the very weather that is so central to your team (I wouldn't but someone may e.e).

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Although Blissey isn't particularly viable, it has the chance to be offensive, running a Calm Mind Set on Stall and Defensive Teams. However, Chansey, while more useful and bulkier, will never have a chance at being offensive because of it's Special Attack. The only time Chansey (may) have offensive moves is a possible coverage move, like Flamethrower for Ferrothorn, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, etc. even then I cannot strongly say that coverage moves on Chansey are viable.

 

[Martin]

Please don't use attacking moves on chansey...

Anyway, while I nommed it to drop a while back, my opinion of Bliss has changed since cause I completely forgot its CM set existed and, having seen it a bit, it is easy to see why it is used, and its utility on stall as a counter to Manaphy is more than enough reason for it to remain ranked.

 

[Thatwackycruton]

Nominating Latios to S

In the OU metagame, Latios is comparable to a "horseman of the apocalypse". The thing that made me thinking this is how threatening he is, even for his common checks. In fact, his checks are not impassable, as they can be removed depending on what his third coverage is (Yes, i know, this may be well-known). While some of them can get punished in mindgames (he can take one pursuit), others can be intercepted with hazard pressure or with smart switches (this one includes keeping him lurking). Eventually, pursuit can be easily scouted by looking at your opponent’s team and evalutate if his team is weak to Lati@s or if there are some mons that benefit of the removal of it, including the fact of maintaining hazard pressure, which is one of the main reasons of why tyranitar is often seen on non-sand hazard stack balanced teams. And when there’s a tyranitar in a non-sand team, we all know that it 100% carries pursuit. Examples are sand teams with Charizard-Y or Keldeo (or with both) and volturn with Weavile/Assault Vest (or mega) Metagross. The first one, usually, does not use tyranitar as a smooth rock user, as all the team would have more disadvantage against things like charizard-y (If Excadrill is Swords Dance) and Mega Alakazam, and it would not maintain the same hazard pressure that the scarf and the band ones does. That’s why, usually, it carries chople berry on sand teams (This may be irrilevant, but it is just for curiosity).

Once his checks/counters are gone, Latios poses an incredibly threatening presence for the opposing team, with his outstanding wallbreaking capabilities. Especially in late game, where the bulkiest may be already pressured by hazards and in range of his moves. About range, Latios is one of the most dangerous mons regarding it, as his moves often put mons in range of other teammates or vice versa. Switching is often one of the best weapons he has when there are no trappers (or if they are gone), as it is one of the mons which works greatly at the right moment, creating momentum. Calm mind Latios is an underrated set that poses an extremely dangerous threat if used correctly, and it is without a doubt the most difficult viable move to predict in a latios. Even Mega Alakazam fails to 2hko 100% of the times with shadow ball/dazzling gleam after one calm mind (34% chance), while Clefable fails to 2hko always, and it is swept away easily with a more-than-sufficent-2hko boosted psyshock. Latios is also, hands down, the best scald switchin in this metagame, the primary check to Keldeo, Manaphy and primary counter to Charizard-Y that is splashed on a team.

Latios is a centralizing power and a classic “Effective in many situations” mon. Combining this with his spikes immunity, Stealth rock neutrality, well speed tier and generally positive overall stats and you got one of the most efficent and dangerous mons in the metagame.

Happy 2016 to all you, guys.

I'm gonna have to disagree with this. It's not a dumb nomination by any stretch, but Latios struggles with a lot of pokemon. For one, it's absolutely destroyed by TTar, bisharp, MMeta and almost any other pursuit user, and unlike other psychic types, and can almost never do anything back unless you're running a weird HP Fighting set. I agree that CM Latios is dangerous, probably more so than the standard set, but it still is blocked by the aforementioned pokemon as well as easily being revenged by Scarfed Hoopa-U, Mlop, and Weavile as well as being shut down by unaware Clef as well as Twavers Thunderus and Klefki. Draco meteor is a nuke, but it leaves it wide open to setup from Gyarados, Volcorona, Mega Altaria, and even frailer stuff like Mega pinsir. It's speed is definitely good, but it causes a ton of speed ties with the likes of Gengar, Latias, Mega Metagross, and opposing Latios. Furthermore-

252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios in Sun: 158-186 (52.8 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not what I would call a counter. Latios actually fails to OHKO back with draco meteor, allowing a smart player to continually roost and stall your Latios. Now, I understand that latios is still a solid check to megazard Y and I respect that, but it's not a "counter" like you mentioned. Latios is OHKOed by weavile, which is a pretty big liability considering that Latios is usually going to be used on offensive teams that already are usually skating on thin ice with weavile. I also wouldn't call latios the best scald switch in, although it's a very good one. That title probably goes to gastrodon. A U-Turn weakness is just throwing momentum to teams that Utilize Scizor or scarfed jirachi, the latter of which has become an annoying trend lately. You could use Tankchomp to stop these threats, but you stack an ice weakness as well as a dragon one. I don't believe it's quite as much of a force as you make it out to be, although it certainly is one, which is why it's in A+.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

I'm gonna have to disagree with this. It's not a dumb nomination by any stretch, but Latios struggles with a lot of pokemon. For one, it's absolutely destroyed by TTar, bisharp, MMeta and almost any other pursuit user, and unlike other psychic types, and can almost never do anything back unless you're running a weird HP Fighting set. I agree that CM Latios is dangerous, probably more so than the standard set, but it still is blocked by the aforementioned pokemon as well as easily being revenged by Scarfed Hoopa-U, Mlop, and Weavile as well as being shut down by unaware Clef as well as Twavers Thunderus and Klefki. Draco meteor is a nuke, but it leaves it wide open to setup from Gyarados, Volcorona, Mega Altaria, and even frailer stuff like Mega pinsir. It's speed is definitely good, but it causes a ton of speed ties with the likes of Gengar, Latias, Mega Metagross, and opposing Latios.

As ksr15 said, almost none of the Pokemon you mentioned can switch into Latios, besides Assault Vest Tyranitar and Clefable. Latios has the versatility and power to knock out almost any Pokemon in OU, which makes it a true threat in OU. Sure, Latios has some weaknesses, but these weaknesses strongly are outweighed with Latios's strengths, and despite the points you made, I still think that Latios possess S-Rank qualities.

 

[Giagantic]

Where is everyone's opinions regarding Mega-Sableye now that Shadow Tag is gone? I personally have begun to feel that Mega-Sableye could be moved down from S > A+ due to the following reasons. I argue that Mega-Sableye while certainly strong is faced with various issues such as its lackluster Hp, to the fact that it can have a hard time coming in to hard hitting moves and being able to survive them to recover or status. This issue is especially pronounced in a meta filled with powerful hitters such as Latios, Landorus-t, and so on, where coming in on a Lando's Earthquake could do this much:

-252+ Atk Soft Sand Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (not that I recommend switching in on lando unless you are trying to reflect SR)

Another issue that is extrodrinarily annoying for Mega-Sableye is the vast popularity of its counter Clefable, or other such Pokemon like Heatran that don't fear it and can cripple with lava plume or whittle away with magma storm. I'd like to question whether it is deserving of S rank when it is threatened so much more easily since Stag left the tier.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Where is everyone's opinions regarding Mega-Sableye now that Shadow Tag is gone? I personally have begun to feel that Mega-Sableye could be moved down from S > A+ due to the following reasons. I argue that Mega-Sableye while certainly strong is faced with various issues such as its lackluster Hp, to the fact that it can have a hard time coming in to hard hitting moves and being able to survive them to recover or status. This issue is especially pronounced in a meta filled with powerful hitters such as Latios, Landorus-t, and so on, where coming in on a Lando's Earthquake could do this much:

-252+ Atk Soft Sand Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (not that I recommend switching in on lando unless you are trying to reflect SR)

Another issue that is extrodrinarily annoying for Mega-Sableye is the vast popularity of its counter Clefable, or other such Pokemon like Heatran that don't fear it and can cripple with lava plume or whittle away with magma storm. I'd like to question whether it is deserving of S rank when it is threatened so much more easily since Stag left the tier.

I have to disagree with you. First of all I would say that the calc is somewhat irrelevant, as Landorus-Therian will just be burned, and Mega Sab will recover, and proceed to set on your team. Sableye isn't necessarily crippled by Lava Plume, as it has access to reliable recovery, and could still set up on Heatran, even if burned. Mega Sableye has great defensive typing, an ability that leaves it generally immune to status, and bulk, while not top-notch, certainly isn't too shabby, especially with the tools it has. Sableye can fulfill its infamous CM set, and utility to very successful heights, and a Pokemon that has awesome typing, the ability to scare out several Pokemon, cripple so fast and so reliably, setup, deflect status and hazards (making it a great switch-in) AND provide support for its team should definitely be S Rank.

 

[bludz]

Think of all the S ranks Manaphy is the only one really poised for a drop. Sableye's support is still dominant and as witnessed by certain fairies being less effective rather than moreso, the meta isn't really changing in a way to make it worse. Also notable being how good spikes are although that hasn't changed per se but if they were less relevant then Sableye wouldn't have as much utility.

Anyway regarding Manaphy AM had some good reasoning in the metagame discussion thread:

Uh i think manaphy has gotten worst as the meta progresses seeing the builds used and how much some of these builds apply focused pressure on wallbreakers. It still retains some of the same qualities it always has but it has some major competition for the water slot these days with the likes of others such as keldeo and azumarill. Unhealthy is a weird buzzword subject to a lot of varying opinions and playstyles, doesnt necessarily mean its automatically bad for the meta.

A typical balance team isnt really going to be destroyed by manaphy either. If its some balance reminiscent of the XY days then maybe but even then you are going to have a lot of issues with wallbreakers in general not just manaphy if you make the unwise choice of having an entire team fall under the 110 base speed tier with no good form of speed control.

 

[MikeDawg]

(Still) agreeing with a sableye drop. Stall can't afford to be as passive as it could with gothitelle. Sableye is set-up bait for lots of very scary stallbreakers (gard, manaphy, etc.... you know, the ones that goth trapped). Some other stall megas (charizard, megabro, altaria, gyarados, venusaur) are proving to have increasingly helpful utility as well, and some can double as strong wincons. They tend to offer better type synergy to the team and better role-compression since they are mostly significantly bulkier than sableye with many useful resistances.

Without goth, stall has quite a bit more to fear, and the inherently passive sableye isn't neccesarily the go-to option anymore.

 

[Puralux]

I'm gonna have to disagree with this. It's not a dumb nomination by any stretch, but Latios struggles with a lot of pokemon. For one, it's absolutely destroyed by TTar, bisharp, MMeta and almost any other pursuit user, and unlike other psychic types, and can almost never do anything back unless you're running a weird HP Fighting set. I agree that CM Latios is dangerous, probably more so than the standard set, but it still is blocked by the aforementioned pokemon as well as easily being revenged by Scarfed Hoopa-U, Mlop, and Weavile as well as being shut down by unaware Clef as well as Twavers Thunderus and Klefki. Draco meteor is a nuke, but it leaves it wide open to setup from Gyarados, Volcorona, Mega Altaria, and even frailer stuff like Mega pinsir. It's speed is definitely good, but it causes a ton of speed ties with the likes of Gengar, Latias, Mega Metagross, and opposing Latios. Furthermore-

252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios in Sun: 158-186 (52.8 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not what I would call a counter. Latios actually fails to OHKO back with draco meteor, allowing a smart player to continually roost and stall your Latios. Now, I understand that latios is still a solid check to megazard Y and I respect that, but it's not a "counter" like you mentioned. Latios is OHKOed by weavile, which is a pretty big liability considering that Latios is usually going to be used on offensive teams that already are usually skating on thin ice with weavile. I also wouldn't call latios the best scald switch in, although it's a very good one. That title probably goes to gastrodon. A U-Turn weakness is just throwing momentum to teams that Utilize Scizor or scarfed jirachi, the latter of which has become an annoying trend lately. You could use Tankchomp to stop these threats, but you stack an ice weakness as well as a dragon one. I don't believe it's quite as much of a force as you make it out to be, although it certainly is one, which is why it's in A+.

He can't do anything back? Against MMeta and scarf ttar yes, but what about not getting trapped? Who would leave your team open to things like gyarados by dropping a draco without having counters or checks in your pocket? Seriously, it's literally an autolose if you do this lol.

How can charizard stall latios with a 70-82% damage from psyshock? It is latios that can ppstall chary's fire blast, advantaged by sun that lasts for 5 turns. Most of the damage from a scarfrachi u turn can be recovered from recover/roost, the problem appears only if he has something that can gain advantage from the recover/roost. Don't forget there are other teammate slots to cover your ice weakness. Mega lopunny can't revenge kill Latios if he has more than 92% health (Unless adamant,which only ohkoes with LO recoil included). As i said in my post you can try to predict if his weavile has pursuit, if you think it doesn't, latios has something called switch. Same for things like klefki and unaware clef. Thundurus doesn't shut down latios, it cripples it, which is different. Regarding latios as the best scald switchin, i think it is because some scald users does have a way to force out gastrodon (unless toxic), and because generally latios is far more viable than gastrodon and thus it is one of the most common ones.

 

[Thatwackycruton]

He can't do anything back? Against MMeta and scarf ttar yes, but what about not getting trapped? Who would leave your team open to things like gyarados by dropping a draco without having counters or checks in your pocket? Seriously, it's literally an autolose if you do this lol.

How can charizard stall latios with a 70-82% damage from psyshock? It is latios that can ppstall chary's fire blast, advantaged by sun that lasts for 5 turns. Most of the damage from a scarfrachi u turn can be recovered from recover/roost, the problem appears only if he has something that can gain advantage from the recover/roost. Don't forget there are other teammate slots to cover your ice weakness. Mega lopunny can't revenge kill Latios if he has more than 92% health (Unless adamant,which only ohkoes with LO recoil included). As i said in my post you can try to predict if his weavile has pursuit, if you think it doesn't, latios has something called switch. Same for things like klefki and unaware clef. Thundurus doesn't shut down latios, it cripples it, which is different. Regarding latios as the best scald switchin, i think it is because some scald users does have a way to force out gastrodon (unless toxic), and because generally latios is far more viable than gastrodon and thus it is one of the most common ones.

A few comments to be made here. I was perfectly willing to let this discussion drop, but you felt you had to make a longwinded and, in my opinion, rude retort. Marquis of Blaze already made a decently compelling counter argument, and you apparently had to say something. Fine. A couple things to note, the first and foremost being that Mega Lopunny has Fake out nearly 100% of the time, which does in fact allow it to revenge kill Latios. Furthermore, You say that you obviously wouldn't Draco with Latios when he has Some setup sweeper in the back. So, you are essentially saying that if they have a setup sweeper, you cannot safely fire off a draco meteor, meaning that you essentially cannot use Latios's most powerful nuke in fear of that pokemon setting up. If you disagree with my points made above, fine. I can see that. but there is something that you missed.

You mention The Teammates of Latios far too many times for an S rank nomination.

The entire point of an S rank pokemon is one that requires Very Little team support. Granted, they all require some, but Manaphy can waste stall teams with very little additional wallbreaking needed, and Megazard X can just crush everything besides Slowbro and kind of lando-T, and the former can be BSed past with ThunderPunch, while the latter lacks reliable recovery. Tyranitar, Bisharp, Gross and its mega, Weavile, Scarfed Jirachi and Scarfed Garchomp, Hoopa-U, Mlop, Unaware Clefable, Azuamarril, Thunderus, Klefki, Twave Ferro, Scizor and its mega, Twave Chansey, Specially defensive+Whirlwind skarm, Heatran, Scarfed Kyurem-B, Mega Diance, Mamoswine, AV Torn-T, Mega Gardevior, Mega Altaria, Twave Cress, Choice Scarf lando-t, CB Talonflame, Sylveon, CM MegaBro, and essentially any pokemon that can take a hit and Twave back.

Yes, I know it can get past some of these with the appropriate coverage moves, but you then sacrifice yourself to a new slew of threats. And you say "Cripple" with Twave, but it still essentially results in Latios being defeated. Futhermore, a ton of this stuff here laughs at the most common set- The defog one. And even stuff Latios "beats" 1v1 such as mega medicham, it's still taking about 70% from the combination of BP+Fake Out. All of the aforementioned pokemon need to be removed by teammates, which I think definitely counts as needing too much team support to be bumped up to S rank.

And I just can't wait to see what ridiculous argument you come up with for this one.

 

[AM]

Update Time:

Discussion Point Moves:

Mega Gardevoir: A -> Stays A
Volcarona: A- -> B+
Diggersby: B+ -> Stays in B+
Scolipede: B -> B-
Zapdos: B -> B-
Thundurus-Therian: B- -> Stays B-
Cobalion: C+ -> Stays C+
Cresselia: C- -> C
Mega Aggron: C- -> C

Other Moves:

Manaphy: S -> A+
Rotom-Wash: A- -> A
Mega Altaria: A+ -> A
Azumarill: Stays A+
Keldeo: Stays A+
Tornadus-T: Stays A+
Mega Pinsir: Stays A-
Salamence: D -> Unranked
Metagross: B- -> B
Omastar: B -> B-
Celebi: A- -> B+

Most of these were discussed or referenced throughout the thread. Anything else that was mentioned that may have been forgotten is assumed to stay where it is. Discussion points for this slate are....

Discussion points:

Latios: A+ -> S Stems from this post found here by Puralux.

Kyurem-B: A -> A- This post by Reymedy got a good amount of support in response to people nomming it to A+ and I feel warrants discussion as I agree with some of his sentiments and clearly so do others.

Mega Metagross: A+ -> A WQ's post here elaborates on it a bit. I'm not really buying it, but WQ has a point here in this post so feel free to touch upon that.

The other stuff I'm about to put I feel warrant some discussion or just curious on peoples stance based on things I've heard from talks with others.

Mega Gyarados: A -> A-
Mega Aerodactyl: A- -> B+
Mega Tyranitar: B -> B-
Mega Heracross: B+ -> B
Amoonguss: B -> B+
Togekiss: B+ -> B
Tangrowth: B -> B+
Gastrodon: B -> B+
Mega Sharpedo: B -> B-
Tyrantrum: B- -> C+
Crawdaunt: B- -> B

I can elaborate if necessary as far as these extra discussion points go. These are some things that seem off to myself in terms of where they sit now. For the record none of these are, set in stone, I guess I'll say. That means that some of these can be more than likely to stay but out of curiosity and to keep it up to date and accurate these are some things I'm interested in discussing about. I also want to put sort of a laid back rule to not nom or mention moving stuff below the B letter category at this point in time. There's no point in getting hung up on really niche stuff right now and if necessary we'll move these on our own. Thanks happy posting and feel free to enjoy more of my charming personality as I will be back helping with rankings.

Yay.

 

[Kav]

A few comments to be made here. I was perfectly willing to let this discussion drop, but you felt you had to make a longwinded and, in my opinion, rude retort. Marquis of Blaze already made a decently compelling counter argument, and you apparently had to say something. Fine. A couple things to note, the first and foremost being that Mega Lopunny has Fake out nearly 100% of the time, which does in fact allow it to revenge kill Latios. Furthermore, You say that you obviously wouldn't Draco with Latios when he has Some setup sweeper in the back. So, you are essentially saying that if they have a setup sweeper, you cannot safely fire off a draco meteor, meaning that you essentially cannot use Latios's most powerful nuke in fear of that pokemon setting up. If you disagree with my points made above, fine. I can see that. but there is something that you missed.

You mention The Teammates of Latios far too many times for an S rank nomination.

The entire point of an S rank pokemon is one that requires Very Little team support. Granted, they all require some, but Manaphy can waste stall teams with very little additional wallbreaking needed, and Megazard X can just crush everything besides Slowbro and kind of lando-T, and the former can be BSed past with ThunderPunch, while the latter lacks reliable recovery. Tyranitar, Bisharp, Gross and its mega, Weavile, Scarfed Jirachi and Scarfed Garchomp, Hoopa-U, Mlop, Unaware Clefable, Azuamarril, Thunderus, Klefki, Twave Ferro, Scizor and its mega, Twave Chansey, Specially defensive+Whirlwind skarm, Heatran, Scarfed Kyurem-B, Mega Diance, Mamoswine, AV Torn-T, Mega Gardevior, Mega Altaria, Twave Cress, Choice Scarf lando-t, CB Talonflame, Sylveon, CM MegaBro, and essentially any pokemon that can take a hit and Twave back.

Yes, I know it can get past some of these with the appropriate coverage moves, but you then sacrifice yourself to a new slew of threats. And you say "Cripple" with Twave, but it still essentially results in Latios being defeated. Futhermore, a ton of this stuff here laughs at the most common set- The defog one. And even stuff Latios "beats" 1v1 such as mega medicham, it's still taking about 70% from the combination of BP+Fake Out. All of the aforementioned pokemon need to be removed by teammates, which I think definitely counts as needing too much team support to be bumped up to S rank.

And I just can't wait to see what ridiculous argument you come up with for this one.

s rank does not mean a mon requires little support. the tier descriptions were dropped because that sort of thing doesnt necessarily correlate with viability or overall strength.

Latios is a fast wallbreaker in a similar vein as gengar (though with a much better nuke). Getting revenged by lopunny/weavile or trapped by pursuit users mean hardly anything because those mons practically hard counter the very role it performs. like you cant just list a bunch of things that can beat latios. any revenge killer that doesn't switch into latios and win means nothing because it comes with the implication that latios already killed something, and in turn you're at worst trading 1 for 1 (if you have no switch ins) which is fantastic because latios probably isnt your primary wincon. hell some of the stuff you listed like mamoswine dont even win even if it does get a free switch in. when some of these are at best paralyzing it while eating a draco or whatever then all youre doing it showing how latios can be an extremely efficient mon that fucks up its own counters.

also of course between coverage moves, calm mind, recovery, and defog, its a huge nuisance in a number of other ways.

and seriously if your fighting check kills a medicham with enough health to fire off two more dracos its not exactly a bad thing.

 

[Mr.Goxel]

I was wondering what happened to the mega Manectric discussion about moving it up to a+? I didint see it on the discussion panel. Anyway I'd like to give my opinion on this pokemon.

First off Manectric is currently tied for being tied (with mega lopunny) the third fastest usable pokemon in this tier with only mega aero, mega sceptile, mega alakazam, and mega beedrill outspeeding it. Notably only 2 of these pokemon are ou and mega manectric beats some of these pokemon in a 1v1 notably mega lopunny and mega sceptile.

252 SpA Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sceptile: 260-308 (92.5 - 109.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Not only that but he acts as a great revenge killer and has intmadate allowing him to take on and beat a lot of physical attacker despite its not very good physical defense. Manectric is also currently the only electric type pokemon packing good fire type coverage moves allowing him to beat threats other electric types (raikou and thundurus-i mainly) are not always going to be able to beat such as ferrothorn, weavile, excadrill, etc. I also forgot to mention that intimidate allows him to get a lot of "free" switches. Obviously also due to hp ice he can beat many ground types that normally he couldn't beat but all other electric types usually run this too so its not so notable. I'd also like to say he requires much less support then every mega in the a tier rn with the exception of mega medicham (who struggles with mega sableye). Being immune to paralysis is also extremely helpful for him allowing him to constantly apply pressure to the opposing team.