Gods and Followers

[dhelmise]

Its not broken as M ray doesnt get "team support" which it got in ubers and made it op but its fine in G&F because it is restricted to use dragon or flyimg in is team

Not entirely. Mega Rayquaza gets hazard support from Skarmory, Healing Wish support from Latias, and there are a lot of bulky Pokemon that can make up for Mega Rayquaza's frailness. But yeah, Mega Rayquaza's team options are heavily restricted from the limitations regarding typing.

Any faster Dragon-type can OHKO Mega Rayquaza with ease, especially Mega Salamence and it's STAB- and Aerilate-boosted Double-Edge or Return which also has a chance of being boosted by Dragon Dance, which also boosts Mega Salamence's Speed, allowing it to outspeed the rare Choice Scarf Mega Rayquaza set.

 

[Alexis Breeze]

Not entirely. Mega Rayquaza gets hazard support from Skarmory, Healing Wish support from Latias, and there are a lot of bulky Pokemon that can make up for Mega Rayquaza's frailness. But yeah, Mega Rayquaza's team options are heavily restricted from the limitations regarding typing.

Any faster Dragon-type can OHKO Mega Rayquaza with ease, especially Mega Salamence and it's STAB- and Aerilate-boosted Double-Edge or Return which also has a chance of being boosted by Dragon Dance, which also boosts Mega Salamence's Speed, allowing it to outspeed the rare Choice Scarf Mega Rayquaza set.

Lol your answer is "play a dragon type god so you have a scarf dragon to revenge kill (Google the definition of counter please)".

This thread is too good

Just to make this reply useful for those of you who have not ever played mono, flying is the most OP Monotype. Some food for your " opinions"

 

[yoman5]

As someone who just peaked the ladder let me remind you of the restrictions that this meta enforces, most notably typing. Many teams become basically unviable if they can't revenge kill mega Ray. I say this because walling mega Ray is impossible. With so much as a dd most teams just lose, because most scarfers can't beat 115 at +1. Sd sets with espeed make most scarfers die anyway. Unlike mence it can carry an item, life orb makes it even more powerful, while lum invalidates even hyper offenses method of checking it in prankster status. Mixed sets or even special sets can tear holes in teams that can be easily taken advantage of by teammates. And the typing allows it to have such powerful teammates as talonflame, thundurus, skarm, and all the dragons. I don't think it was fair in ubers, and I certainly don't think it's fair here with the type restrictions and access to teammates that are banned in monotype.

 

[Mq]

As someone who just peaked the ladder let me remind you of the restrictions that this meta enforces, most notably typing. Many teams become basically unviable if they can't revenge kill mega Ray. I say this because walling mega Ray is impossible. With so much as a dd most teams just lose, because most scarfers can't beat 115 at +1. Sd sets with espeed make most scarfers die anyway. Unlike mence it can carry an item, life orb makes it even more powerful, while lum invalidates even hyper offenses method of checking it in prankster status. Mixed sets or even special sets can tear holes in teams that can be easily taken advantage of by teammates. And the typing allows it to have such powerful teammates as talonflame, thundurus, skarm, and all the dragons. I don't think it was fair in ubers, and I certainly don't think it's fair here with the type restrictions and access to teammates that are banned in monotype.

I agree with yoman5 and we might have a suspect test or have a council dicision

 

[Alexis Breeze]

Not to look down on yoman but peaking the ladder on the first day is not an accomplishment. I was temporarily leaderboard after laddering for 35 mins. Stayed top 5 until later at night. MRay needs to go regardless of type or teammates.

 

[dhelmise]

Not to look down on yoman but peaking the ladder on the first day is not an accomplishment. I was temporarily leaderboard after laddering for 35 mins. Stayed top 5 until later at night. MRay needs to go regardless of type or teammates.

We get that you have your opinion about Mega Rayquaza's standpoint in the metagame. But why are you constantly trying to invalidate letting us have ours, just because it differentiates from yours? And no, my earlier post was not just saying "Counter x Dragon with y Pokemon," not at all. I was just providing an example of one Pokemon that can take care of MRay. All I was (and still am) saying is that Mega Rayquaza cannot do much versus a) anything faster than it, and b) versus priority or setup users. I get that you have your opinions about why MRay should be banned, but you just simply invalidating my thoughts on the Pokemon by saying stupid remarks towards me that relate to Scarf Kyu-B being stupid when all I was doing was providing an example isn't going to help sway my opinion.

E: And I'm not disagreeing that Mega Rayquaza is really strong in this metagame, but I'm just saying that I don't think it's overpowered to the point where it needs banned.

 

[yoman5]

Not to look down on yoman but peaking the ladder on the first day is not an accomplishment. I was temporarily leaderboard after laddering for 35 mins. Stayed top 5 until later at night. MRay needs to go regardless of type or teammates.

It has nothing to do with accomplishment, it means I played enough of the meta to have an educated opinion. As far as scarf kyub goes it is outsped and ohkod after a Dragon dance. And ice sharders are either destroyed by espeed (weavile) or don't have the power to kill (cloyster).

 

[Amaluna]

This meta is surprisingly fun! I am liking Rain HO on it so far

 

[Mq]

Hows does MMX team deals with m ray's team now?Keldoe cant be used....and victini with glaciate cant get the one-shot kill:/

 

[jamashawalker]

LOL

Why don't you think a little bit what you just posted. It was banned because Rock as too powerful for Ubers. A tier with Uber walls, get it? How is it OK on a sorta dual mono OU meta? Explain please.

Saying things like "I've beaten MRay teams" is a moot point, I've faced baddies too, big deal. Maybe I should just make a fresh alt and rape the meta to show having that thing unbanned is dumb

Ahead of you on creating the fresh alt(s) with a simple core of latias,skarmory, and M Ray. Got to the top of the ladder without even trying on all of them. I really do not understand the arguments to keeping this thing around. You are severely limited in team building in which is unfortunate for a metagame is supposed to be diverse. Playing anything other than Dragon/steel/flying means you're going to have a very hard time in the matchup against it. Using cases such as "use choice scarf dragons" is the silliest arguement if held true in ubers would've never had it banned in the first place. SD extremespeed destroys all choice scarf dragons bar dialga.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 290-342 (74.1 - 87.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

There's the bulkiest choice scarf Dragon who dies to Espeed. And be damn if you run into the dragon dance set where with one boost it KOs everything.

And the mixed set which can sweep and break walls at the same time.

Switch skarmory in on dragon ascent, get hit with fire blast.
Switch Heatran in on dragon acent, get hit with EQ
Switch gliscor in on dragon ascent, get hit with draco meteor.
Switch dialga in on dragon ascent knowing you can take an EQ after, get hit with Draco meteor
Hell I've been mixing up my Mixed rays moveset and switched out EQ for Espeed and it still destroys team.

Thanks to this metagame it is beyond easy to get Mray in and mevolve, click dragon ascent, and watch something die without trying. I would say that makes rayquaza different from any other wallbreaker/sweeper. There is no downside nor rational thought to clicking dragons ascent. Anything that resists it, is met with a coverage move. This is the restriction you are placed with when dealing with Mray.

Edit: Latias and skarmory provide you with more than enough team support. Skarmory for hazards control and Latias for healing wish. Which allows you to play your rayquaza more recklessly.

Two very easy rayquaza replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-312588269

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-312609768

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Hows does MMX team deals with m ray's team now?Keldoe cant be used....and victini with glaciate cant get the one-shot kill:/

40 Hp Victini Final Gambit vs. 0 HP Mega Rayquaza: 351-351 (100 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[yoman5]

40 Hp Victini Final Gambit vs. 0 HP Mega Rayquaza: 351-351 (100 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Meanwhile it can neither switch in on Mray nor outspeed after a dd, even if scarfed.

 

[Jajoken]

Quick updates, the council has decided to retain The Immortal's original ruling with Primal Groudon, so all teams will be limited to Ground types. Also: I have read over the thread and the council will be suspecting Mega Rayquaza over the course of the next day.

Otherwise, thanks for the lively discussion and ladder activity! I will be opening back up the viability rankings shortly after our decision on Mega Rayquaza, so start testing on various gods and getting replays if you'd like to make nominations.

 

[jackm]

I just started playing this today, but one thing which I've found to be quite effective is hazard-stacking around a rather uncommon Dialga set which works surprisingly well:

Dialga @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
- Dragon Tail
- Bulk Up

[I'm sure the EV's can be optimized, but don't mind that]

Dialga's already solid 100/120/100 bulk is enormously powerful by OU standards, and when combined with its Dragon/Steel typing it can get in the way of and set up on quite a large chunk of OU--after a few Bulk Up boosts, its vulnerability to the sheer force behind physical Ground- and Fighting-type attacks becomes a functional non-issue, and it can easily tank most special attacks regardless of boosting. With the plethora of hazard support available from its Steel teammates, it can put enormous pressure on the opponent by shuffling with Dragon Tail and exploit attempts to defog with Bisharp if you choose to run it. Obviously, this set is almost entirely dead weight against Fairy teams; however, with a surplus of strong Steel-type support this is generally a non-issue.

 

[Jajoken]

For those struggling with setup in this meta:

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Thunder Wave/Stealth Rock
- Moonblast

This is an solid set in this meta for Fairy teams (so Xerneas, basically). You can take any one hit from Mega Rayquaza even if its set up and get off a Thunder Wave or Moonblast (only kills if it's ~60%, because sadly Unaware also ignores the drops from Dragon Ascent). But more directly, it shuts down Arceus:

252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 142-168 (36.1 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It also helps for Normal teams as a whole, as Meloetta and Mega Pidgeot are really your only options when it comes to Special Attackers, so you can stall out many threats with Wishtect. Here's a replay of me doing just that.

You can also go Specially Defensive as a secondary check to other Xerneas (all Xern teams should have Klefki, but if it gets weakened, this ensures you don't lose):

252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 177-208 (45 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

~

On an unrelated note, has anyone been using/seeing Mega Gengar? I think trapping could be very valuable here -- Mega Rayquaza, for instance, can be killed after it Dragon Ascents if Mega Ray has either taken one additional Life Orb hit or a Stealth Rock switch-in.

252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Wave vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza: 286-337 (81.4 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Your E-speed immunity also comes in handy here. Other, frailer gods like Shaymin-S can simply be outspeed and OHKO'd. Sub + Perish Song + Protect has promise as well for bulky gods, although many of them carry Roar which ruins this strategy.

 

[Gerard]

The problem with M-Gengar in my experience is that it's still quite frail, even burned pokemon can OHKO or at least 2HKO him, he needs to megavolve early (doubly so against MegaRay since otherwise it doesn't even outspeed), thus he needs to be on the field early in order to gain a free turn to evolve, which endangeres him thanks to how frail it is, that every time he revenges anything he risk getting revenged back (thanks to that pursuit weakness) and on top of that doesn't even get a good team (Aegislash is banned in ghost, the only decent pokemon in Ghost/Poison with U-turn/Volt Switch is Crobat, and neither type has a lot of strong pokemon for which getting rid of one mon would mean being able to sweep the opposing team).

 

[Manchamp]

I'm getting lots of good battling so far, I hit the top 10 earlier then started experimenting. I have surprised myself by discovering that I don't need Wish or Heal Bell support for my god. I have been using Palkia, and so I don't have access to good users (Alomamola and vaporeon aren't cutting it for me). I have a Latias with Healing Wish just as a fail safe measure, and I have yet to use it. Most of my battles involve me playing with a regular OU style and then nuking difficult opponents with Palk. I have a strong supporting team and I try to only use Palkia when I absolutely need to, like he sits on his throne and watches, intervening only when his subjects are in dire need. Does anyone really play so riskily with their god that they use (Healing) Wish support very often?

 

[jamashawalker]

I'm getting lots of good battling so far, I hit the top 10 earlier then started experimenting. I have surprised myself by discovering that I don't need Wish or Heal Bell support for my god. I have been using Palkia, and so I don't have access to good users (Alomamola and vaporeon aren't cutting it for me). I have a Latias with Healing Wish just as a fail safe measure, and I have yet to use it. Most of my battles involve me playing with a regular OU style and then nuking difficult opponents with Palk. I have a strong supporting team and I try to only use Palkia when I absolutely need to, like he sits on his throne and watches, intervening only when his subjects are in dire need. Does anyone really play so riskily with their god that they use (Healing) Wish support very often?

I do with Mix quayza because it's much easier to win and I back it with Healing Wish Latias. So i'm not afraid to stay in and fire blast Klefki as it paralyzes me. I found that playing other people's God, Xerneas is used as a late game sweeper when screens are up, Choice scarf dragons are only used to revenge kill so they are seen once or twice a game, Walls like Lugia and Yveltal always play with hazard control and will only switch in if if they know they can't get 3HKOd. When I was using Physical attacker Yveltal I would bring it in to revenge kill with sucker punch or wall break with knock off.

 

[Manchamp]

This battle is the definition of clutch. MGar to the rescue, just like a good god would.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/godsandfollowers-312766001

I realized after the battle that my opponent was using one of the sample teams because I ran into a completely different player with the exact same team and had to look it up. It's a really good team, I'm proud to beat it against a good player.

Also, good points about the healing wish latias, I have yet to need it but I always keep it on my team in case something happens.

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Meanwhile it can neither switch in on Mray nor outspeed after a dd, even if scarfed.

>the point



>you

If you really need a counter on a mmx team, you are out of luck. I do hawever, have some gimmicky sets to give a bit of insurance to the desperate.

sets

super gimmick bronzong

Bronzong @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate/Heatproof
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Explosion
- Gyro Ball
- Filler
- Filler

the given ev's allow for 252+ Atk Choice Band Bronzong Explosion vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 345-406 (98.2 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO. super bad, super niche, but.
the andvantage here is rayquaza won't expect it.
levitate lets you survive eq and gives you a way to switch in, while heatproof- 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza V-create vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Heatproof Bronzong: 234-276 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
and 252+ SpA Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heatproof Bronzong: 229-270 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is easy to avoid, but they probably won't see it coming. Even if they do switch, at least you got a ko.

porygon-z scarf

Porygon-Z @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam/Blizzard
- Psyshock
- Tri Attack
- Trick
+1 252+ SpA Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 332-392 (94.5 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

weavile

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 343-406 (97.7 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Weavile @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick

survives espeed, rip. obv

 

[Lord Death Man]

I'm getting lots of good battling so far, I hit the top 10 earlier then started experimenting. I have surprised myself by discovering that I don't need Wish or Heal Bell support for my god. I have been using Palkia, and so I don't have access to good users (Alomamola and vaporeon aren't cutting it for me). I have a Latias with Healing Wish just as a fail safe measure, and I have yet to use it. Most of my battles involve me playing with a regular OU style and then nuking difficult opponents with Palk. I have a strong supporting team and I try to only use Palkia when I absolutely need to, like he sits on his throne and watches, intervening only when his subjects are in dire need. Does anyone really play so riskily with their god that they use (Healing) Wish support very often?

I never really need HW support, but I do think playing riskily with your god makes it easier to put yourself in a good position, so long as you don't actually lose it. I've been playing Ho-Oh, and I find Ho-Oh to be a very solid early game breaker, especially against certain team compositions who are hard pressed to take it out without injuring their god in the process.

 

[yoman5]

>the point



>you

If you really need a counter on a mmx team, you are out of luck. I do hawever, have some gimmicky sets to give a bit of insurance to the desperate.

sets

super gimmick bronzong

Bronzong @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate/Heatproof
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Explosion
- Gyro Ball
- Filler
- Filler

the given ev's allow for 252+ Atk Choice Band Bronzong Explosion vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 345-406 (98.2 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO. super bad, super niche, but.
the andvantage here is rayquaza won't expect it.
levitate lets you survive eq and gives you a way to switch in, while heatproof- 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza V-create vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Heatproof Bronzong: 234-276 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
and 252+ SpA Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heatproof Bronzong: 229-270 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is easy to avoid, but they probably won't see it coming. Even if they do switch, at least you got a ko.

porygon-z scarf

Porygon-Z @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam/Blizzard
- Psyshock
- Tri Attack
- Trick
+1 252+ SpA Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 332-392 (94.5 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

weavile

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 343-406 (97.7 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Weavile @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick

survives espeed, rip. obv

Can't tell if you're being a troll or what. Is that weavile revenge killing? Also why would Ray espeed when shard doesn't kill. Porygon is a decent revenge killer except for ddance sets. Also levi doesn't help zor switch in to anything but eq, dragon ascent and then any of the moves you list roast it even through heatproof, and you can't have both at once. I understand that they're gimmicks but this just shows how far you have to go to deal with it even in a gimmicky unreliable fashion.

 

[sdrumapapere]

Talking of gimmicks for Mega-Ray:

Diancie @ Life Orb
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 72 Def / 188 SpA
Relaxed/Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- filler
- filler
- filler

Moonblast KOs always after one round of ray's LO
188 SpA Life Orb Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Rayquaza: 320-377 (91.1 - 107.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
And it has even a chance to survive an Espeed+EQ combo.
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 72+ Def Diancie: 44-52 (14.5 - 17.1%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 72+ Def Diancie: 221-263 (72.9 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Or you can go for Choice Specs even, with a 248 HP 228 Def 32 SpA spread, 66 - 78.2% from LO EQ and KOs anyway.


Anyway, Dialga is a good check for Mega-Ray.
A specially defensive one with Shuca Berry takes 38.5 - 45.5% from EQ and 49.5 - 58.2% from Draco Meteor.
It can switch on a Dragon Ascent (34.5 - 40.7%) or ESpeed (15.4 - 18.1%) and survive any hit from Ray.
0 SpA draco meteor does 112.8 - 133.3% to ray.

Also Physically Defensive Xerneas can take Dragon Ascent+Espeed and KO Ray back (even Modest, and it KOs ray from full). And you can run Rest/Chesto for the rare chances that Ray will switch out after the first turn

 

[Lcass4919]

>the point



>you

If you really need a counter on a mmx team, you are out of luck. I do hawever, have some gimmicky sets to give a bit of insurance to the desperate.

sets

super gimmick bronzong

Bronzong @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate/Heatproof
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Explosion
- Gyro Ball
- Filler
- Filler

the given ev's allow for 252+ Atk Choice Band Bronzong Explosion vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza: 345-406 (98.2 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO. super bad, super niche, but.
the andvantage here is rayquaza won't expect it.
levitate lets you survive eq and gives you a way to switch in, while heatproof- 252 Atk Life Orb Mega Rayquaza V-create vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Heatproof Bronzong: 234-276 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
and 252+ SpA Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Overheat vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heatproof Bronzong: 229-270 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is easy to avoid, but they probably won't see it coming. Even if they do switch, at least you got a ko.

porygon-z scarf

Porygon-Z @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Ice Beam/Blizzard
- Psyshock
- Tri Attack
- Trick
+1 252+ SpA Porygon-Z Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 332-392 (94.5 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

weavile

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Rayquaza in Strong Winds: 343-406 (97.7 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Weavile @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Knock Off
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick

survives espeed, rip. obv

weavile dies if it switches in on rocks to espeed. lmao. well, 85% chance, but still. mega ray technically comes out on top. and zong is a 75/25 mindgame in rays favor(choosing v-create basically lets you win more often then not, but v-create ray is probably not worth it just to beat a gimmicky check(no offense). lmao. some decent checks. albeit none want to face ray at +2. as all three lose their checking status outright. lmao

im probably going to make a team around banded mega ray for lulz.

 

[tehy]

in a private channel joking about how obviously banworthy mega rayquaza is

unless dragon and flying are shit types in this meta (if anything i hear they're good), why is mega ray not banworthy? if anything mega ray is as good as it was in ubers plus above average typing for followers

if anything the argument should be for and against quickban but i won't push.