I want to ask a serious question on a silly subject. This is a forum thread dedicated to the purpose of insane calculations. This is tagged research, purely because I want to find an absolute best move. Hypothetical Pokémon is a very situational thing, and I don't recommend actually using these strategies in real fights. Anyway, give me the equation and the answer in damage statistics or whatever Pokémon record here you are trying to set/break. you will need calculators for this. I will check everything myself as well, unless somebody else sees it before me and backs up their answer. Have fun here and show me something amazing, will ya?
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Research Hypothetical Pokemon - Maths
- Thread starter TailRadish
- Start date
I couldn't say I know of a better forum to find this here/ What im trying to do here is something like Rollout (turn 4) + 4x attack + double helping hand + something else = x damage for example.
If its better left on a differendt forum ill close it here and put it there.
Sounds like the thread ought to be named "Strongest attack in Pokémon" or something instead. The maximum possible power output is from Shuckle, if I recall correctly. It involves using Power Trick, Helping Hand, the hold item Metronome, an ability change via Skill Swap and of course Rollout. The fifth turn of Rollout has a base power of 480, 960 if Defense Curl is used first. The same goes for Ice Ball.
I did some calculations back in Gen IV or V, and found out that the then-strongest move you could possibly set up and execute within one turn of switching in, not counting stat boosts, would be as follows:
Guts Ursaring holding Choice Band switches in on a status move or Toxic Spikes, uses Metronome and gets Explosion.
Nowadays some of the more powerful Megas might have even stronger off-the-bat moves, but they usually miss out on lots of damage due to not holding an item. On the other hand, with Explosion's power effectively being halved since Gen IV, there has to be some other stronger moves out there.
I did some calculations back in Gen IV or V, and found out that the then-strongest move you could possibly set up and execute within one turn of switching in, not counting stat boosts, would be as follows:
Guts Ursaring holding Choice Band switches in on a status move or Toxic Spikes, uses Metronome and gets Explosion.
Nowadays some of the more powerful Megas might have even stronger off-the-bat moves, but they usually miss out on lots of damage due to not holding an item. On the other hand, with Explosion's power effectively being halved since Gen IV, there has to be some other stronger moves out there.
Of course, you need the Helping Hand to be from Cherrim in Sun.
Anyway, this is what I got from it (sans Cherrim).
+6 0+ Atk Pure Power Metronome (5th Round) Shuckle Helping Hand Rollout (960 BP) vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Level 1 Ledyba on a critical hit: 40345008-47464720 (336208400 - 395539333.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
I remember reading about that on TVTropes; it's on their "There Is No Kill Like Overkill" page. I think what Phione said is as far as you can probably go with what's available now. However, while staying within game mechanics, someone figured the following and I paraphrase:
Fire-type + 255 base Attack + Huge Power + 6 stage Attack boost + Max IVs & EVs + Attack boosting Nature + 5th turn Metronome + 2 Cherrim Partners + Sunny weather + Defense Curl + Fire-type Rollout + Critical Hit + target is a Bug/Steel-type with Dry Skin under the effects of Forest's Curse with 1 base Defense, 6 stage Defense drop, no IVs or EVs, Defense decreasing Nature = 202,786,432,200. That or your game explodes.
To make it interesting, maybe we could try to find the strongest attack by type? We've obviously found it for Rock, but what about the others? It seems Walrein's Defense Curl-boosted Ice Ball on the fifth turn is a contender for the strongest non-rollout move, but I think Latios' Stored Power with the maximum amount of stat boosts has it beaten.
Also, it'd be interesting to see what would be the strongest moves possible to execute on turn 1 in a Singles battle. No time for extravagant set-ups, just raw power. Specs Kyogre's Water Spout takes that cake, I bet, but for moves of other types?
Also, it'd be interesting to see what would be the strongest moves possible to execute on turn 1 in a Singles battle. No time for extravagant set-ups, just raw power. Specs Kyogre's Water Spout takes that cake, I bet, but for moves of other types?
Well, for the first, I can tell you outright that Avalugg has a higher attack stat than Walrein so that would be better.
As for Modest Latios' Stored Power, it has a max power of 860. But I'm too lazy to check it out with 860 because Showdown's calculator doesn't allow you to add accuracy/evasion boosts. Here's the calc with a -6 level 1 Rash Croagunk with a 0 in HP and SpDef IVs.
+6 252+ SpA Latios Helping Hand Stored Power (620 BP) vs. -6 0 HP / 0- SpD Croagunk on a critical hit: 9418468-11080552 (85622436.3 - 100732290.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Double that for Metronome's boost and we get 201,464,581. But that's only 620. Still goes nowhere near the total overkill damage, but I have no idea how to make a fire typed rollout...
Considering some mods are participating in this thread that might circumvent that a bit.
My guess is this a thread where either we fully exhaust all there's to talk about or since it involves da maths interest in it will dwindle. Right now the most logical place to go with this thread is what Codraroll suggested; figuring out what combo in each type would hit the hardest for that type.
Yes, but Avalugg doesn't learn Defense Curl, and therefore misses out on the doubling in power. The difference in attack stats doesn't outweigh that modifier.
For Bug moves, I have a contender: Escavalier's Fury Cutter on the fifth consecutive hit, boosted by Metronome, while Swarm is active. Helping Hand and double Cherrim and all that jazz may also apply, but is ultimately irrelevant as it doesn't make any difference whether or not the move is the strongest Bug move.
Hypothetically
Theoretically
+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Victini Helping Hand V-create vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Dry Skin Jynx in Harsh Sunshine on a critical hit: 138974-163502 (51281.9 - 60332.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And then I realized I forgot to change its level.
+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Victini Helping Hand V-create vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Dry Skin Jynx in Harsh Sunshine on a critical hit: 3196374-3760442 (26636450 - 31337016.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And a Smoochum that hypothetically obtained Dry Skin
+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Victini Helping Hand V-create vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Dry Skin Smoochum in Harsh Sunshine on a critical hit: 3196374-3760442 (26636450 - 31337016.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
They're the same- who knew? And let's see what happens when Victini somehow gets Huge Power
+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Victini Helping Hand V-create vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Dry Skin Smoochum in Harsh Sunshine on a critical hit: 6392744-7520876 (53272866.6 - 62673966.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Theoretically
+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Victini Helping Hand V-create vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Dry Skin Jynx in Harsh Sunshine on a critical hit: 138974-163502 (51281.9 - 60332.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And then I realized I forgot to change its level.
+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Victini Helping Hand V-create vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Dry Skin Jynx in Harsh Sunshine on a critical hit: 3196374-3760442 (26636450 - 31337016.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And a Smoochum that hypothetically obtained Dry Skin
+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Victini Helping Hand V-create vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Dry Skin Smoochum in Harsh Sunshine on a critical hit: 3196374-3760442 (26636450 - 31337016.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
They're the same- who knew? And let's see what happens when Victini somehow gets Huge Power
+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Victini Helping Hand V-create vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Dry Skin Smoochum in Harsh Sunshine on a critical hit: 6392744-7520876 (53272866.6 - 62673966.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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How? Smoochum's base Defense is 15 and Jynx's is 35. True it won't be that far apart, but I don't think it would be the same.
Why are you doing the calcs with smoochum and not a dry skin paras?
Not even close to the strongest, and not even a "first turn strongest" as you can't obtain a lvl 1 Jynx.
I haven't calced it but I think Harsh Sun double Cherrim Helping Hand Metronome (5th turn) Huge Power Primal Groudon using V-create (via Mimic) against Dry Skin Steel/Bug type Gastly (Reflect Type) under the effects of Forest's Curse would be the best Fire type attack possible without hacking.
EDIT 2: forgot P-don needs to hold an untrickable orb, replace with Metronome holding Ditto/Mew/Smeargle to transform into above Groudon.
The damage makes sense as they have the same min defense at lvl 1, but the % doesn't as they have different min HPs.
EDIT:
Only a monster would hurt a cute little Paras :c
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Look closer at the calcs. The numbers are the same.
Idk. Smoochum has lower defense and I was already calculating Jynx
Paras has a quad weakness to Fire-Type moves in addition to Dry Skin, whereas Smoochum only has a normal weakness. Damage output will always be higher with Dry Skin Paras.
I think you can do more damage than the Shuckle vs. Combee scenario by having Shuckle with Mimic and Hidden Power Ice get Skill Swapped Protean, turned into an Ice type, Skill Swapped Huge Power, and using Mimic to get Me First to get Ice Ball vs. a level 1 Forest Cursed Noibat
Here's an alternate idea: what's the bulkiest possible Pokémon?
Currently (if I am correct in this being possible), the highest I can figure out is the following:
A Eviolite Chansey with max HP uses Mimic to get Transform. It transforms into a Shuckle with 252+* Def, 252* SpDef with +6 in each stat.
This results in 704 HP, 3354 Def*, and 3684 Sp Def*
Yeah...that's absurd, but not as absurd as I thought it would be:
+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 619-730 (87.9 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
And that is with the Shuckle stats/typing. Though Sturdy technically makes it a 25.1% chance of lowering it to 1 HP.
*If you use a nature that raises Sp Def instead, just reverse the final result.
Currently (if I am correct in this being possible), the highest I can figure out is the following:
A Eviolite Chansey with max HP uses Mimic to get Transform. It transforms into a Shuckle with 252+* Def, 252* SpDef with +6 in each stat.
This results in 704 HP, 3354 Def*, and 3684 Sp Def*
Yeah...that's absurd, but not as absurd as I thought it would be:
+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 619-730 (87.9 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
And that is with the Shuckle stats/typing. Though Sturdy technically makes it a 25.1% chance of lowering it to 1 HP.
*If you use a nature that raises Sp Def instead, just reverse the final result.
Here's an idea, what's the most damage you can do with a weight dependent move (Grass Knot, Heavy Slam, & Heat Crash)?
I wanna calculate something different - how low can you make the chance to hit:
The Pokémon uses Dynamic Punch (1:2 chance to hit) while...
-paralyzed (3:4 chance)
-confused (1:2)
-infatuated (1:2)
-at -6 accuracy (1:3)
-having Hustle (4:5)
And the opponent...
-has +6 evasion (1:3)
-holds Brightpowder (9:10)
-uses an evasive ability; Sand Veil, Snow Cloak or Tangled Feet (4:5)
-attacks with a flinch move during the rainbow field effect (2:5)
This attack has a 864:360000 chance to hit, or 0,24%. That's about the chance to find two rare hold items in the wild in a row.
The Pokémon uses Dynamic Punch (1:2 chance to hit) while...
-paralyzed (3:4 chance)
-confused (1:2)
-infatuated (1:2)
-at -6 accuracy (1:3)
-having Hustle (4:5)
And the opponent...
-has +6 evasion (1:3)
-holds Brightpowder (9:10)
-uses an evasive ability; Sand Veil, Snow Cloak or Tangled Feet (4:5)
-attacks with a flinch move during the rainbow field effect (2:5)
This attack has a 864:360000 chance to hit, or 0,24%. That's about the chance to find two rare hold items in the wild in a row.
The max is set to 120. You could be 500 times fatter than Groudon and still take the same amount of damage it takes from Low Kick.
Same principal applies to the weight difference required for Heat Crash and Heavy Slam to do huge damage.
Okay, and how about with items, stats, Abilities, IVs, Natures, partners, and etc. powering it up further against an opponent who is weak to the move's type and has all the negative stuff like -6 defenses, 0 IVs, negative Nature, etc.?
+6 252+ SpA Choice Specs Primal Kyogre Helping Hand Water Spout (150 BP) vs. -6 0 HP / 0- SpD Geodude in Heavy Rain on a critical hit: 6558396-7715760 (59621781.8 - 70143272.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now replace Choice Specs with Metronome (PS! calculator doesn't let me do that :c) and you have even more damage
Pikachu315111 +6 252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Mewtwo X Helping Hand Low Kick (120 BP) vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Aggron on a critical hit: 4867312-5726256 (40560933.3 - 47718800%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now, in theory, Metronome should double the damage caused, therefore...
+6 252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Mewtwo X Helping Hand Metronome Turn 5 Low Kick (120 BP) vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Aggron on a critical hit: 9734624-11452512 (81121866.6 - 95437600%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Almost 100 million percent. Ouch
Speaking of:
+6 252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Mewtwo X Helping Hand Metronome Turn 5 Focus Punch vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Aron on a critical hit: 12168288-14315632 (101402400 - 119296933.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mother of overkill
And then Primal Groudon had to join the party
+6 252+ Atk Pure Power Primal Groudon Helping Hand Metronome Turn 5 V-create vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Dry Skin Paras in Harsh Sunshine on a critical hit: 26233516-30862968 (238486509 - 280572436.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Anyone want some Paras mushrooms a la CARBONIZED BEYOND PREVIOUSLY KNOWN UNIVERSAL LIMITS?!?!?!
Well here come more broken universal limits of heat:
Obtained the effects of Forest's Curse and Metronome Turn 5 (the latter one goes for all calculations I do with the PS! damage calculator) by multiplying the base power of V-Create by 4 (normally for Metronome 5 is just by 2, but I had to add Forest's Curse, which would add another 2x weakness to fire)
I think we have a winner. Oh yeah, and we still have to factor in double Helping Hands and Cherrim bonuses:
+6 252+ Atk Pure Power Primal Groudon Double Helping Hand Double Cherrim Metronome Turn 5 V-create vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Bug/Steel/Grass Gastly in Harsh Sunshine on a critical hit: 104934040-123451830 (953945818 - 1122289363.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (of course)
Over a billion percent max. Over 123 million HP in one hit. Can anyone beat that?
Now replace Choice Specs with Metronome (PS! calculator doesn't let me do that :c) and you have even more damage
Pikachu315111 +6 252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Mewtwo X Helping Hand Low Kick (120 BP) vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Aggron on a critical hit: 4867312-5726256 (40560933.3 - 47718800%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now, in theory, Metronome should double the damage caused, therefore...
+6 252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Mewtwo X Helping Hand Metronome Turn 5 Low Kick (120 BP) vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Aggron on a critical hit: 9734624-11452512 (81121866.6 - 95437600%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Almost 100 million percent. Ouch
Speaking of:
+6 252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Mewtwo X Helping Hand Metronome Turn 5 Focus Punch vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Aron on a critical hit: 12168288-14315632 (101402400 - 119296933.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mother of overkill
And then Primal Groudon had to join the party
+6 252+ Atk Pure Power Primal Groudon Helping Hand Metronome Turn 5 V-create vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Dry Skin Paras in Harsh Sunshine on a critical hit: 26233516-30862968 (238486509 - 280572436.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Anyone want some Paras mushrooms a la CARBONIZED BEYOND PREVIOUSLY KNOWN UNIVERSAL LIMITS?!?!?!
Well here come more broken universal limits of heat:
+6 252+ Atk Pure Power Primal Groudon Helping Hand Metronome Turn 5 V-create vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Bug/Steel/Grass Gastly in Harsh Sunshine on a critical hit: 41973616-49380732 (381578327.2 - 448915745.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Obtained the effects of Forest's Curse and Metronome Turn 5 (the latter one goes for all calculations I do with the PS! damage calculator) by multiplying the base power of V-Create by 4 (normally for Metronome 5 is just by 2, but I had to add Forest's Curse, which would add another 2x weakness to fire)
I think we have a winner. Oh yeah, and we still have to factor in double Helping Hands and Cherrim bonuses:
+6 252+ Atk Pure Power Primal Groudon Double Helping Hand Double Cherrim Metronome Turn 5 V-create vs. -6 0 HP / 0- Def Bug/Steel/Grass Gastly in Harsh Sunshine on a critical hit: 104934040-123451830 (953945818 - 1122289363.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (of course)
Over a billion percent max. Over 123 million HP in one hit. Can anyone beat that?
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O.o
To put that in perspective, but that is enough damage to knock out 172901 Blisseys with a 172902nd one severely hurt.
To put THAT in perspective, that is 28816 whole teams of Blissey knocked out. If each of those teams were owned by Smogon members, that one attack would knock out about 12% of us as of this post (240,024 members).
To quote Abridged Frieza:
"You can punch a board and it will break in half. I can punch a board and wipe out its entire race."
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CTNC
Doesn't know how to attack
That's insane I can't believe that's possible. Wait, is that Primal Groudon holding an item that isn't a Red Orb? That can't happen in game, (Can it? I don't know if Ditto would work.) but I can fix this. If a Kecleon used Skill Swap on Deoxys-A to allow it to change its type before Pure Power was Skill Swapped onto it then this amount of overkill could happen in game. Don't have access to a Deoxys on a Gen III to teach it Mimic? Use a V-create Mega Rayquaza and show people why we banned him from Ubers. Also, I think you forgot to Skill Swap Dry Skin onto that Ghastly, not that it needs to be any more dead.
As for beating that amount of annihilation, I think that a fifth turn Ice Ball against a Dragon/Flying/Grass Ghastly should be more powerful. Salamence gets Defense Curl to boost the power farther, and despite his lower Attack, he could be more powerful than Mega-ICanDealOverABillionPercentDamage-Raquaza using the same move.
One last note, are Critical Hits applied for these calculations? If not, I want to see Crits! Death to Ghastly! >:D