Or Chlorophyll Venusaur.
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np: ORAS UU Stage 6 - Slow Hands
- Thread starter Sam
- Start date
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Without the mega, Gyrados is looking to be another version of Gatr, being faster though not necessarily stronger because of sheer force.
Still, lo sets will be threatening, it looks like, because intimidate helps it shut down some things that might give it problems and set up a DD, or scarf/band sets for other stuff.
At least, on paper.
Still, lo sets will be threatening, it looks like, because intimidate helps it shut down some things that might give it problems and set up a DD, or scarf/band sets for other stuff.
At least, on paper.
Gyarados will be a fantastic element to Balance and Bulky Offense playstyles. Furthermore, is it safe to say that we finally have another Mamoswine counter or, at worst, check?
I'd say check, since being part-flying gives I a neutrality to ice so it probably won't want to switch in much.
Well Mamoswine now has Freeze-dry so that should up the relevance of the move as a lure should Gyarados prove popular enough, definitely a check.
As a lot of people correctly predicted, UU has become more Offensive in nature.
offense.......................41.61528% balance.......................34.19326% hyperoffense..................15.57732% voltturn...................... 8.49670% semistall..................... 5.69981% stall......................... 2.91434%
versus November
offense.......................38.72306% balance.......................37.41497% hyperoffense..................14.83936% voltturn...................... 8.68452% semistall..................... 5.72916% stall......................... 3.29344%
With the Gyarados drop, I'm predicting that Balance playstyles will rise a bit, but ultimately Offensive playstyles will get a bigger boost.
offense.......................41.61528% balance.......................34.19326% hyperoffense..................15.57732% voltturn...................... 8.49670% semistall..................... 5.69981% stall......................... 2.91434%
versus November
offense.......................38.72306% balance.......................37.41497% hyperoffense..................14.83936% voltturn...................... 8.68452% semistall..................... 5.72916% stall......................... 3.29344%
With the Gyarados drop, I'm predicting that Balance playstyles will rise a bit, but ultimately Offensive playstyles will get a bigger boost.
Gyarados is definitely going to be a force to reckon with in UU (hasn't been UU since Gen 2 and a LOT has changed since then lol). Balance will definitely appreciate the "blanket check-ness" Gyarados provides and its Speed Tier is really
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 196 Def Gyarados: 129-152 (32.8 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
16+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 282-332 (78.5 - 92.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(The Gyarados spread is something I came up with to hit benchmarks in Attack with an Adamant nature as well as Speed; the last calc proves after SR + one round of LO damage means Mamo is down)
Bulky Offense may appreciate Gyarados, but I feel like it has way more competition there as Feraligatr is a bigger offensive Water threat thanks to Sheer Force boosting its STAB as well as its coverage while Salamence is a better Intimidate Flying type thanks to its amazing coverage and access to Roost + Defog.
Overall, I am really excited to test out Gyarados in UU (have to wait for my PS! hiatus to end first though :/)
Gyarados is going to a be an interesting addition. It stands out as the only Water type sweeper that has a STAB to
hit Grass types bar Cloyster, which means it's DD set has a very valuable niche. As of now, I think Gyara will be able to run 3 viable sets, similar to ou.
SubDD is a really scary set that allow for setup on Scald, Chesnaught, P2, and with Intimidate, a bunch of physical attackers. With Waterfall + Bounce coverage, it becomes nearly unwallable as it hits everything neutrally except Mega Ampharos, Emp (setup fodder), and Heliolisk (lol). Even Spiky Shield Naught is fodder since it can't really touch Gyara
DD + Three Attacks is also viable which lets Gyara muscle past his few checks. EQ lets him hit the only mons that resist his STABs for SE damage, and Stone Edge smacks Zapdos. However, it is important to note that +1 Jolly Gyara has a 98% chance to 2HKO max Def Zapdos after rocks, so even without Stone Edge Gyara, wins if Sub is up.
Lastly, a more defensive set should be really good for Balance, as it gets an incredibly solid Mamo check, Fire check, Ground check, and Fighting check in one slot. It offers similar resists as Salamence, but the Ice neutrality is just so clutch with Mamo dominating the meta for months now. Oh, and it also hard walls Mega Swampert and checks Gatr and Sharpedo (shark is kinda iffy though), which Mence can't. The moveset will probably be Max HP with the rest in Def and some speed creep + RestTalk+ Waterfall and and interchangeable fourth slot. Maybe T-Wave, Dragon Tail, Toxic, or Roar for CM Florges.
Gyarados should have a big impact on the meta. I don't know if it's broken or not, but I expect Zapdos to quickly rise to #1 in usage. Maybe finally Amphy will also be used, but probably not since Zapdos exists. Cobalion took another hit in viability, but expect a lot more Volt Switch and Stone Edge Cobas (Volt does a nice 45% to offensive variants). Actually, expect a lot more rock coverage in general, especially from fighting types. If Gyara becomes so pervasive, maybe Mega Pert will start running Stone Edge just so it isn't cockblocked all the time. HP Electric is also something to look out for on things like NP Ape and Empoleon.
Overall, Gyarados most definitely will be a dominate threat due to amazing abilities, typing, and bulk to allow for easy set up and walling capabilities. The two types that beat it are either weak to Water STAB or take Neutral damage, which seems like it would make Gyara really, really hard to kill if it gets set up, but I could be wrong. Also, it doesn't help that we have barely any Rock and Electric types. It should be interesting to see how the meta is with Gyara.
hit Grass types bar Cloyster, which means it's DD set has a very valuable niche. As of now, I think Gyara will be able to run 3 viable sets, similar to ou.
SubDD is a really scary set that allow for setup on Scald, Chesnaught, P2, and with Intimidate, a bunch of physical attackers. With Waterfall + Bounce coverage, it becomes nearly unwallable as it hits everything neutrally except Mega Ampharos, Emp (setup fodder), and Heliolisk (lol). Even Spiky Shield Naught is fodder since it can't really touch Gyara
DD + Three Attacks is also viable which lets Gyara muscle past his few checks. EQ lets him hit the only mons that resist his STABs for SE damage, and Stone Edge smacks Zapdos. However, it is important to note that +1 Jolly Gyara has a 98% chance to 2HKO max Def Zapdos after rocks, so even without Stone Edge Gyara, wins if Sub is up.
Lastly, a more defensive set should be really good for Balance, as it gets an incredibly solid Mamo check, Fire check, Ground check, and Fighting check in one slot. It offers similar resists as Salamence, but the Ice neutrality is just so clutch with Mamo dominating the meta for months now. Oh, and it also hard walls Mega Swampert and checks Gatr and Sharpedo (shark is kinda iffy though), which Mence can't. The moveset will probably be Max HP with the rest in Def and some speed creep + RestTalk+ Waterfall and and interchangeable fourth slot. Maybe T-Wave, Dragon Tail, Toxic, or Roar for CM Florges.
Gyarados should have a big impact on the meta. I don't know if it's broken or not, but I expect Zapdos to quickly rise to #1 in usage. Maybe finally Amphy will also be used, but probably not since Zapdos exists. Cobalion took another hit in viability, but expect a lot more Volt Switch and Stone Edge Cobas (Volt does a nice 45% to offensive variants). Actually, expect a lot more rock coverage in general, especially from fighting types. If Gyara becomes so pervasive, maybe Mega Pert will start running Stone Edge just so it isn't cockblocked all the time. HP Electric is also something to look out for on things like NP Ape and Empoleon.
Overall, Gyarados most definitely will be a dominate threat due to amazing abilities, typing, and bulk to allow for easy set up and walling capabilities. The two types that beat it are either weak to Water STAB or take Neutral damage, which seems like it would make Gyara really, really hard to kill if it gets set up, but I could be wrong. Also, it doesn't help that we have barely any Rock and Electric types. It should be interesting to see how the meta is with Gyara.
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I personally think Gyarados is a much better option than Feraligatr as a DD sweeper. Gyara has two of the best STABs in the metagame (Water and Flying) and its speed tier allows it to beat out Crobat in a sense that it will force it to run 244 Speed EVs to beat DD Gyara, which at that point kind of defeats the whole purpose of Crobat. Furthermore. Intimidate + relavent typing allows it to set up on a good portion of the tier, something that Feraligatr kind of struggles to do (safely). Frankly speaking, Gyara wouldn't be too far behind Salamence as an Intimidate Flying-type (whatever that category means) because it has Thunder Wave, and its strong defensive typing allows it to Thunder Wave relatively consistently.
Also, Bounce is a god move (except against Spiky Shield Chesnaught).
Sorry I meant that Gyarados is a definite staple on any balance team thanks to it blanket checking a lot of threats while on bulky Offense it faces more competition (even though it is still a god lol).
I've been thinking a bit about the Gyarados drop, and I've come up with a few Speed benchmarks it might want to hit, depending on the set.
Which of these Speed benchmarks ends up being most important really depends on team composition and what moves Gyarados is running. SubDD doesn't care too much about a lot of them, since it can just smack half the things on this list from behind a Substitute, but DD + 3 attacks Gyarados might care a little more about what it outspeeds and when.
I agree with Do A Bibarel that there will be at least three good sets (SubDD, DD + 3 attacks, defensive). DD + Taunt might also make an appearance. What checks/counters Gyarados is really going to depend on what coverage it's running, since it can viably run Waterfall plus any 1-2 of the following, depending on set: Bounce, Crunch, Stone Edge, Earthquake, and Ice Fang. Some of these moves will definitely be better/more common than others, but all of them are at least somewhat useful. A Choice Band set lets it beat some of its usual counters, so that might also be viable, though probably not too common. Choice Scarf Moxie cleaner has to compete with Salamence, Krookodile, and Heracross, but might be usable on a team that desperately needs both a cleaner and Gyarados's typing. That said, it'd probably be super niche.
I can already see the physical Water spam coming, but I wonder what else Gyarados would work well with? I can see it being a decent partner for anything that really hates Fighting/Fire-types or that needs something to break through the various bulky Water-types in the tier.
Thoughts?
220 Speed (88 EVs, neutral nature): Outspeeds +Spe base 100 Pokemon at +1, +Spe base 150 Pokemon at +2. This is probably the minimum that offensive Gyarados wants to invest in, so it can outspeed Salamence/Shaymin and hit them with the appropriate coverage move. Also beats Mega Aerodactyl at +2, which is nice if you can get two turns to Dragon Dance.
224 Speed (104 EVs, neutral nature): Outspeeds +1 +Spe base 86 Pokemon at +2. Mostly for beating Scarf Rotom-C/Rotom-H at +2.
231 Speed (132 EVs, neutral nature): Outspeeds +Spe base 108 Pokemon at +1. Nice for beating Cobalion/Infernape/Galvantula, but you're probably better off investing a little more to hit one of the next 3 benchmarks.
233 Speed (140 EVs, neutral nature): Outspeeds +Spe base 109 Pokemon at +1. Beats Heliolisk at +1.
234 Speed (144 EVs, neutral nature): Outspeeds +Spe base 110 Pokemon at +1. Beats Espeon, if you're worried about that.
236 Speed (152 EVs, neutral nature): Outspeeds +Spe base 111 Pokemon at +1 (Tornadus).
241 Speed (172 EVs, neutral nature): Outspeeds +Spe base 115 Pokemon at +1 and neutral base 70 Pokemon at +0. This is mostly for Azelf and Mega Absol. Also outspeeds Adamant Mega Swampert at +2.
243 Speed (180 EVs, neutral nature): Outspeeds +Spe base 116 Pokemon at +1. Lets you outspeed Whimsicott.
256 Speed (232 EVs, neutral nature; 140 EVs, +Spe nature): Outspeeds neutral base 78 Pokemon (Adamant Feraligatr, basically).
260 Speed (252 EVs, neutral nature; 156 EVs, +Spe nature): Outspeeds neutral base 80 Pokemon.
270 Speed (192 EVs, +Spe nature): Outspeeds neutral base 85 Pokemon.
280 Speed (228 EVs, +Spe nature): Outspeeds neutral base 90 Pokemon.
287 Speed (252 EVs, +Spe nature): Outspeeds +Spe base 80 Pokemon (Mamoswine, Chandelure, etc.) at +0 and +Spe base 145 Pokemon at +1. Beats Mega Beedrill and Mega Sceptile at +1, but is still slower than Jolly Mega Aerodactyl.
224 Speed (104 EVs, neutral nature): Outspeeds +1 +Spe base 86 Pokemon at +2. Mostly for beating Scarf Rotom-C/Rotom-H at +2.
231 Speed (132 EVs, neutral nature): Outspeeds +Spe base 108 Pokemon at +1. Nice for beating Cobalion/Infernape/Galvantula, but you're probably better off investing a little more to hit one of the next 3 benchmarks.
233 Speed (140 EVs, neutral nature): Outspeeds +Spe base 109 Pokemon at +1. Beats Heliolisk at +1.
234 Speed (144 EVs, neutral nature): Outspeeds +Spe base 110 Pokemon at +1. Beats Espeon, if you're worried about that.
236 Speed (152 EVs, neutral nature): Outspeeds +Spe base 111 Pokemon at +1 (Tornadus).
241 Speed (172 EVs, neutral nature): Outspeeds +Spe base 115 Pokemon at +1 and neutral base 70 Pokemon at +0. This is mostly for Azelf and Mega Absol. Also outspeeds Adamant Mega Swampert at +2.
243 Speed (180 EVs, neutral nature): Outspeeds +Spe base 116 Pokemon at +1. Lets you outspeed Whimsicott.
256 Speed (232 EVs, neutral nature; 140 EVs, +Spe nature): Outspeeds neutral base 78 Pokemon (Adamant Feraligatr, basically).
260 Speed (252 EVs, neutral nature; 156 EVs, +Spe nature): Outspeeds neutral base 80 Pokemon.
270 Speed (192 EVs, +Spe nature): Outspeeds neutral base 85 Pokemon.
280 Speed (228 EVs, +Spe nature): Outspeeds neutral base 90 Pokemon.
287 Speed (252 EVs, +Spe nature): Outspeeds +Spe base 80 Pokemon (Mamoswine, Chandelure, etc.) at +0 and +Spe base 145 Pokemon at +1. Beats Mega Beedrill and Mega Sceptile at +1, but is still slower than Jolly Mega Aerodactyl.
Which of these Speed benchmarks ends up being most important really depends on team composition and what moves Gyarados is running. SubDD doesn't care too much about a lot of them, since it can just smack half the things on this list from behind a Substitute, but DD + 3 attacks Gyarados might care a little more about what it outspeeds and when.
I agree with Do A Bibarel that there will be at least three good sets (SubDD, DD + 3 attacks, defensive). DD + Taunt might also make an appearance. What checks/counters Gyarados is really going to depend on what coverage it's running, since it can viably run Waterfall plus any 1-2 of the following, depending on set: Bounce, Crunch, Stone Edge, Earthquake, and Ice Fang. Some of these moves will definitely be better/more common than others, but all of them are at least somewhat useful. A Choice Band set lets it beat some of its usual counters, so that might also be viable, though probably not too common. Choice Scarf Moxie cleaner has to compete with Salamence, Krookodile, and Heracross, but might be usable on a team that desperately needs both a cleaner and Gyarados's typing. That said, it'd probably be super niche.
I can already see the physical Water spam coming, but I wonder what else Gyarados would work well with? I can see it being a decent partner for anything that really hates Fighting/Fire-types or that needs something to break through the various bulky Water-types in the tier.
Thoughts?
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I think krook n gyra or lax n gyra will b good. In the case of krook being able to trap and beat some electrics is valuable.with lax i think a curse set with stab + eq will work wonders. Amphy will also be good with it since it beats waters and synergizes well with gyra and can over heal bell support. It has alot of options the ideas that igave were based off od wanting to use sub dd but theyre way more combos depending on set
Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
Gyarados seems like a really cool addition, being a scary sweeper with Dragon Dance and decent coverage, two great abilities and a decent typing. I think Taunt Gyarados will be a thing as it can cripple walls so Gyara can set up DD much easier, although Substitute gives it competition for a moveslot. Bounce also seems viable, as it's really strong with a boost and Water/Flying coverage is bae, but taking two turns to hit is pretty unfavorable. Overall, Gyarados has some flaws, like it's weaknesses to Electric types and Stealth Rock, but it's definetely gonna be a great mon.
Also a cool mon to pair with Gyarados is Mega Houndoom, who can deal with bulky Steel types and Grass types, while also being a neat wallbreaker so Gyarados can clean up late-game, or Gyarados can wallbreak and MegaDoom can clean up. Gyarados also resists Fighting types who scare off MegaDoom.
SubDD will probs be more popular but don't sleep on Lum/Lefties(fearless) TauntDD, stuff like Roar Emp and Cune become a joke unless they get really lucky heh
Mega Amph keeps getting better
Mega Amph keeps getting better
Hi everyone, I'm a newbie who just started UU and am really enjoying UU right now. I would like to give my initial thoughts on an underrated mon and how it currently fares in the meta.
I can foresee a rise in usage of Rotom-Mow in UU with respect to the quick-drop of Gyarados. Its typing has become more relevant since not only is it able to check Gyarados, Leaf Storm enables it to check Ground-types such as Krookodile, which are good partners of Gyarados, as well as decimating all the other bulky waters that have always been UU. Rotom-Mow also resists Waterfall and is immune to Earthquake. Bounce being a 2-turn move could give you a chance to take advantage of, and although it has to be wary of the occasional Ice Fang it is not really something to be truly concerned about since Gyarados would also want to fit in Stone Edge to obliterate Zapdos, as well as other utility moves such as Dragon Dance, Substitute, Taunt, etc. (In other words Gyarados has some sort of 4MSS - am I using this term correctly?) Which brings me to my next point.
It is also interesting to note that Rotom-Mow's base speed of 85 outspeeds Gyarados base speed of 81, meaning that Rotom-Mow is able to attack first or cripple Gyarados or any switch-in with a Will-O-Wisp. The user also has to be wary of Rotom-Mow's versatility since Scarf Rotom-Mow is able to outspeed DD Gyarados and cripple it with Trick. Rotom-Mow being faster than Gyarados enables it to bluff a Choice set, enhancing the unpredictability of Rotom-Mow.
Some may argue that Rotom-Mow is outclassed by Zapdos, but I beg to differ. Rotom-Mow's useful resistances to Gyarados makes its niche in checking bulky waters more relevant than ever. Furthermore compared to Zapdos, its higher defenses and a non-weakness to Stealth Rock makes Rotom-Mow a better Gyarados check since Zapdos does not want to switch in to repeated Waterfalls. However Zapdos will still be as viable as ever since Zapdos still has reliable recovery in Roost, which is something that Rotom-Mow lack. Zapdos is also more powerful with respect to its base Special Attack, and having Flying STAB and Fire coverage ensures that Zapdos isn't deadweight against opposing Grass-types.
Of course more testing needs to be done to see whether Rotom-Mow has become better; after all this is still considered theorymonning. Nevertheless give this mon a try, and do not underestimate its potential in UU. Peace.
EDIT: Oh and Rotom-Mow just got better with Gyarados being a hard check to Mamoswine, which can threaten Rotom-Mow with Ice Shard.
I can foresee a rise in usage of Rotom-Mow in UU with respect to the quick-drop of Gyarados. Its typing has become more relevant since not only is it able to check Gyarados, Leaf Storm enables it to check Ground-types such as Krookodile, which are good partners of Gyarados, as well as decimating all the other bulky waters that have always been UU. Rotom-Mow also resists Waterfall and is immune to Earthquake. Bounce being a 2-turn move could give you a chance to take advantage of, and although it has to be wary of the occasional Ice Fang it is not really something to be truly concerned about since Gyarados would also want to fit in Stone Edge to obliterate Zapdos, as well as other utility moves such as Dragon Dance, Substitute, Taunt, etc. (In other words Gyarados has some sort of 4MSS - am I using this term correctly?) Which brings me to my next point.
It is also interesting to note that Rotom-Mow's base speed of 85 outspeeds Gyarados base speed of 81, meaning that Rotom-Mow is able to attack first or cripple Gyarados or any switch-in with a Will-O-Wisp. The user also has to be wary of Rotom-Mow's versatility since Scarf Rotom-Mow is able to outspeed DD Gyarados and cripple it with Trick. Rotom-Mow being faster than Gyarados enables it to bluff a Choice set, enhancing the unpredictability of Rotom-Mow.
Some may argue that Rotom-Mow is outclassed by Zapdos, but I beg to differ. Rotom-Mow's useful resistances to Gyarados makes its niche in checking bulky waters more relevant than ever. Furthermore compared to Zapdos, its higher defenses and a non-weakness to Stealth Rock makes Rotom-Mow a better Gyarados check since Zapdos does not want to switch in to repeated Waterfalls. However Zapdos will still be as viable as ever since Zapdos still has reliable recovery in Roost, which is something that Rotom-Mow lack. Zapdos is also more powerful with respect to its base Special Attack, and having Flying STAB and Fire coverage ensures that Zapdos isn't deadweight against opposing Grass-types.
Of course more testing needs to be done to see whether Rotom-Mow has become better; after all this is still considered theorymonning. Nevertheless give this mon a try, and do not underestimate its potential in UU. Peace.
EDIT: Oh and Rotom-Mow just got better with Gyarados being a hard check to Mamoswine, which can threaten Rotom-Mow with Ice Shard.
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Rotom-C seems like it'll get better. In addition to checking Gyarados, it's fairly useful against plenty of other stuff (defensive set beats fat Waters and can offer Will-O-Wisp/Thunder Wave support, Scarf can revenge kill Feraligatr, Mega Beedrill, Mega Aerodactyl, and others, Specs Leaf Storm/Volt Switch hurt, Trick lets it deal with stall). Electric-types in general seem to be becoming more useful as we get new Water-types. It's getting easier and easier to just throw Mega Ampharos on a balanced/BO team as a catch-all check to a bunch of physical attackers.
Regarding Gyarados, it seems to have a ton of options in terms of teammates. I know people have been using it with Mega Sceptile to take advantage of Lightningrod. I also think it might work well as a partner to Florges. This combination can be used either as win conditions on balanced/bulky offense teams or as walls for more defensive compositions. They have decent type synergy, so throw in a Steel-type or a Ground-type with them and you have a pretty solid defensive/offensive core, depending on set. I also think Gyarados could be useful on rain teams or just as a partner to Rain Dance Mega Swampert, since rain-boosted Waterfall is nice and they can overload their counters so one or the other can sweep.
Not sure what EV spread is going to be best for SubDD/TauntDD sets yet. I haven't tried to calculate what EV investment Gyarados needs to set up on particular weak Scalds. Offensive DD sets are probably best served just going full Attack and Speed investment and taking 2 of Bounce, Stone Edge, Earthquake, and maybe Crunch.
Regarding Gyarados, it seems to have a ton of options in terms of teammates. I know people have been using it with Mega Sceptile to take advantage of Lightningrod. I also think it might work well as a partner to Florges. This combination can be used either as win conditions on balanced/bulky offense teams or as walls for more defensive compositions. They have decent type synergy, so throw in a Steel-type or a Ground-type with them and you have a pretty solid defensive/offensive core, depending on set. I also think Gyarados could be useful on rain teams or just as a partner to Rain Dance Mega Swampert, since rain-boosted Waterfall is nice and they can overload their counters so one or the other can sweep.
Not sure what EV spread is going to be best for SubDD/TauntDD sets yet. I haven't tried to calculate what EV investment Gyarados needs to set up on particular weak Scalds. Offensive DD sets are probably best served just going full Attack and Speed investment and taking 2 of Bounce, Stone Edge, Earthquake, and maybe Crunch.
Haven't posted in ages cause usually when I do someone kinda covers what I wanna say and I silently nod in agreement and keep scrolling. But this time I figure I could offer some of my own personal input on our new friend Gyarados. I, like some others, thought this thing would be ridiculously hard to handle in UU cause comparatively speaking it's like a bulkier Feraligatr with a typing that lets it set up on and check more things, while having near-perfect two-move STAB coverage while still having options to hit other things.
But after extensively using it I kinda noticed Gyarados falls short of being able to destroy teams like I imagined. Part of this I think is because it's such a pivotal mon. Water/Flying type lets it get in on a lot of things, and Intimidate only makes that easier. In my experience it got worn down a bit too early before being able to outright sweep, and that made it kind of a letdown. I mean yeah that's partiallly bad teambuilding/plays on my part for relying too much on it before it's really able to sweep, but this is making me realize DD GYarados doesn't have to be the only set. I haven't tried this out yet but I'm gonna post here another inventive way of running Gyarados:
Gyarados @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Bounce
- Ice Fang
Idk how Bounce would fare on a CB set but it is an option should you wish to use it, don't sleep on Flying STAB coverage, even if it does take 2 turns. Bounce is slashed only with Stone Edge because Ice Fang is your backup option for hitting Flying-types such as Zapdos, and your only other way of hitting Grass-types. If you really felt being cheeky you could run Outrage for the solid neutral coverage and extra power that you might not get from EQ/Stone Edge, but I don't think it's worth it so I'm not gonna put it here. Basically, throw Gyarados in, scare something out, and proceed to smack something really hard in the face. I think Adamant may be preferred here, as it lets Gyarados net some clutch 2HKOes, and running Jolly you really don't outspeed anything important other than +Spe base 80s...most of which also run neutral natures, meaning you'd outspeed them too lol.
Calcs:
But after extensively using it I kinda noticed Gyarados falls short of being able to destroy teams like I imagined. Part of this I think is because it's such a pivotal mon. Water/Flying type lets it get in on a lot of things, and Intimidate only makes that easier. In my experience it got worn down a bit too early before being able to outright sweep, and that made it kind of a letdown. I mean yeah that's partiallly bad teambuilding/plays on my part for relying too much on it before it's really able to sweep, but this is making me realize DD GYarados doesn't have to be the only set. I haven't tried this out yet but I'm gonna post here another inventive way of running Gyarados:
Gyarados @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Bounce
- Ice Fang
Idk how Bounce would fare on a CB set but it is an option should you wish to use it, don't sleep on Flying STAB coverage, even if it does take 2 turns. Bounce is slashed only with Stone Edge because Ice Fang is your backup option for hitting Flying-types such as Zapdos, and your only other way of hitting Grass-types. If you really felt being cheeky you could run Outrage for the solid neutral coverage and extra power that you might not get from EQ/Stone Edge, but I don't think it's worth it so I'm not gonna put it here. Basically, throw Gyarados in, scare something out, and proceed to smack something really hard in the face. I think Adamant may be preferred here, as it lets Gyarados net some clutch 2HKOes, and running Jolly you really don't outspeed anything important other than +Spe base 80s...most of which also run neutral natures, meaning you'd outspeed them too lol.
Calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Gyarados Bounce vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 190-225 (52.4 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 149-176 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 248-294 (76.3 - 90.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Gyarados Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 244-288 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 158-188 (37.3 - 44.4%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 226-268 (66.2 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Gyarados Waterfall vs. 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 232-274 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Zapdos: 169-201 (44.1 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Zapdos: 184-218 (48 - 56.9%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 149-176 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 248-294 (76.3 - 90.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Gyarados Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 244-288 (57.6 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 158-188 (37.3 - 44.4%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 226-268 (66.2 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Gyarados Waterfall vs. 144 HP / 188 Def Snorlax: 232-274 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Gyarados Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Zapdos: 169-201 (44.1 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Zapdos: 184-218 (48 - 56.9%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Some people don't seem to understand why you shouldn't run Sdef Blissey or why you should run Def investment on a Pokemon with base 10 Def. Simple explanation:
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 308-364 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Blissey: 714-840 (100 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 157-187 (21.9 - 26.1%) -- 9.1% chance to 4HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Blissey: 985-1159 (137.9 - 162.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 208-246 (29.1 - 34.4%) -- 4.1% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 426-502 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Draco Meteor on Sdef Blissey does 8% less. U-turn and Superpower do more than twice as much.
Don't run specially defensive Blissey. It doesn't need any Sdef investment to wall 99% of the special attackers. if you don't run any physical bulk, it dies to everything:
0 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Blissey: 492-579 (68.9 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Bronzong Heavy Slam (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Blissey: 328-387 (45.9 - 54.2%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 308-364 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Blissey: 714-840 (100 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 157-187 (21.9 - 26.1%) -- 9.1% chance to 4HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Blissey: 985-1159 (137.9 - 162.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 208-246 (29.1 - 34.4%) -- 4.1% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 426-502 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Draco Meteor on Sdef Blissey does 8% less. U-turn and Superpower do more than twice as much.
Don't run specially defensive Blissey. It doesn't need any Sdef investment to wall 99% of the special attackers. if you don't run any physical bulk, it dies to everything:
0 Atk Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Blissey: 492-579 (68.9 - 81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Bronzong Heavy Slam (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Blissey: 328-387 (45.9 - 54.2%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
why did you tag me? I agree with Hikari mainly except to point out using max defense doesn't mean not to max out special defense or use calm which can be helpful versus np houndoom/np pz/crit kingdra (if that exists) among other super strong special attackers.
Yes always run 252 defense but nature and the other 252 evs do not HAVE to be bold or all in hp. Also I would mention a nice tactic which is Wish + sturdy user, probably steelix before mega evolved. If you have high HP investment you can heal 1hp steelix back to full health with a Wish which means you in desperate situations like vs a sub cm chandy threatening to sweep your stall team can use Wish on blissey and fearlessly switch to Steelix if no hazards are up to use a free sturdy twice and then Roar it out. Just a thought that happened in a few of my games. This obviously isn't a primary response to things like Chandelure but if something went wrong then it at least gives you a chance.
Although I must say Hikari's post struck me as random and I think idiots who use 0 def Blissey are not about to read the smogon uu np thread anyways. Not to take away from the fact I agree with it basically 100%.
Yes always run 252 defense but nature and the other 252 evs do not HAVE to be bold or all in hp. Also I would mention a nice tactic which is Wish + sturdy user, probably steelix before mega evolved. If you have high HP investment you can heal 1hp steelix back to full health with a Wish which means you in desperate situations like vs a sub cm chandy threatening to sweep your stall team can use Wish on blissey and fearlessly switch to Steelix if no hazards are up to use a free sturdy twice and then Roar it out. Just a thought that happened in a few of my games. This obviously isn't a primary response to things like Chandelure but if something went wrong then it at least gives you a chance.
Although I must say Hikari's post struck me as random and I think idiots who use 0 def Blissey are not about to read the smogon uu np thread anyways. Not to take away from the fact I agree with it basically 100%.
ok reviving this thread
61 | Alakazam | 2.24733%
next days we might be getting Alakazam back
iirc last time zam was UU we had way more scarf users around to scout for sash or to just threat it right way. grantly we had less priority users too but I think Zam will be as meta defining as ever. That 120 speed tier looks great rn, with only Crobat and Megas Aero/Bee/Scep outspeeding it. Tbf Zam only have to fear Mega Aero carrying Pursuit otherwise it can just switch out for the respective check and wait another opportunity to come in and threat everything in this tier with impeccable coverage.
altho Sash Zam is what we are going to see over ladder most of the time, Life Orb Zam is the real threat imo, probably 2HKO the entire meta with rocks up. besides much lower damage, Focus Sash looks like an inferior choice nowadays because most priority users fails to OHKO Alakazam without some prior damage - even SE STAB priority like Doublade' Shadow Sneak have a chance to fail. Since you won't be gettin chip damage from hazards on Alakazam, only Sucker Punch users can offensively check Life Orb variants.
I might be talking shit but w/e I'd like to see some thoughts about zam tho
I'm really excited for this drop tbf
calcs
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 175-208 (69.7 - 82.8%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 207-244 (82.4 - 97.2%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 221-263 (88 - 104.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 240-284 (95.6 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
61 | Alakazam | 2.24733%
next days we might be getting Alakazam back
iirc last time zam was UU we had way more scarf users around to scout for sash or to just threat it right way. grantly we had less priority users too but I think Zam will be as meta defining as ever. That 120 speed tier looks great rn, with only Crobat and Megas Aero/Bee/Scep outspeeding it. Tbf Zam only have to fear Mega Aero carrying Pursuit otherwise it can just switch out for the respective check and wait another opportunity to come in and threat everything in this tier with impeccable coverage.
altho Sash Zam is what we are going to see over ladder most of the time, Life Orb Zam is the real threat imo, probably 2HKO the entire meta with rocks up. besides much lower damage, Focus Sash looks like an inferior choice nowadays because most priority users fails to OHKO Alakazam without some prior damage - even SE STAB priority like Doublade' Shadow Sneak have a chance to fail. Since you won't be gettin chip damage from hazards on Alakazam, only Sucker Punch users can offensively check Life Orb variants.
I might be talking shit but w/e I'd like to see some thoughts about zam tho
I'm really excited for this drop tbf
calcs
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 175-208 (69.7 - 82.8%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 207-244 (82.4 - 97.2%)
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 221-263 (88 - 104.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 240-284 (95.6 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
I hate sash Zam.
Considering that Mega-Gyara has the same bulk as Umbreon, plus Intimidate pre-Mega, an incredible offensive typing and better offenses than Mega-Pert..... I think it's fair to say the fish will be worse.
I've actually missed Zam, although without Jirachi to consistently check it, LO is going to be a threat and a half. Still no Starmie, but I've long since resigned myself to the fact that we're never getting Starmie back from OU :(
- Status