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All Gens Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer Mark II (RoA edition)
- Thread starter Jellicent
- Start date
also a recent problem being worked on http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-2-ps-development-post-bugs-here.3524926/page-6
do we wanna make a thread about spl old gens battles?
every low tier subforum has one and they sorta analyze the games and discuss about it, the players can also explain some of their choices, etc
exompol: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/spl-7-uu-discussion-thread.3559502/
i'd be down tbh fams
every low tier subforum has one and they sorta analyze the games and discuss about it, the players can also explain some of their choices, etc
exompol: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/spl-7-uu-discussion-thread.3559502/
i'd be down tbh fams
Do not frown, I will do it soontm. Unless someone else does it first ofc.
Edit: I did it!
Edit: I did it!
Last edited:
Zard usually needs paralysis, phazing and Spikes support. So yeah, it does fit on Spikes teams, but usually you'll want to build the team around Charizard, which does not mean you don't have to pack spikes abusers.
What is up with the tiering for GSC/ADV in respect to OU/BL/UU? Is BL a tier in its own right, or no?
If you look at the new teambuilder, it lists all mons by their Smogon tier. (Thank you, Zarel!) But, as I was going through the old gen tiers, BL looks awkward in both of those gens. There are 24 GSC OU mons and 24 GSC BL mons: BL is large enough to be its own thing. But, it gets even more confusing in ADV. There are 27 OU mons in ADV and at least 49 in BL: BL is almost twice as wide as OU! (I say at least 49 BL because I wasn't sure how to handle Alakazam and Kadabra being in the same tier—I guessed that was a mistake like RBY Machoke being ranked higher than Machamp or RBY Matapod/Kakuna in UU rather than NU and so left it off of my counting.) Was it a tier on its own during the ADV days, or did UU seriously ban 50 mons? RBY shows the typical OU (18) / UU (34) / NU (30) spread with numbers that make sense. Whatever oddity there is starts in GSC, gets worse in ADV, and then abruptly stops in DPP, where there are only 11 BL mons.
So is it appropriate to ask for ADV BL matches? Does ADV BL "technically" align more closely with modern UU?
If you look at the new teambuilder, it lists all mons by their Smogon tier. (Thank you, Zarel!) But, as I was going through the old gen tiers, BL looks awkward in both of those gens. There are 24 GSC OU mons and 24 GSC BL mons: BL is large enough to be its own thing. But, it gets even more confusing in ADV. There are 27 OU mons in ADV and at least 49 in BL: BL is almost twice as wide as OU! (I say at least 49 BL because I wasn't sure how to handle Alakazam and Kadabra being in the same tier—I guessed that was a mistake like RBY Machoke being ranked higher than Machamp or RBY Matapod/Kakuna in UU rather than NU and so left it off of my counting.) Was it a tier on its own during the ADV days, or did UU seriously ban 50 mons? RBY shows the typical OU (18) / UU (34) / NU (30) spread with numbers that make sense. Whatever oddity there is starts in GSC, gets worse in ADV, and then abruptly stops in DPP, where there are only 11 BL mons.
So is it appropriate to ask for ADV BL matches? Does ADV BL "technically" align more closely with modern UU?
I would say gen 1-3 BL are tiers in their own right, and I guess comparing them to modern UU is fair enough. In fact, iirc there was a small player base for ADV BL, I remember people pushing for it to be playable on PO at one point. And I know that ppl used to play RBY BL because rby2k10 exists as evidence.
The thing is that to my knowledge the approach to tiering back when gen 1-3 were active was very different to what it is now, as there were no formal suspect tests or anything like that- and if there are no suspect tests, what need do you have for a banlist? Instead the tiers served as a means of categorising pokemon based approximately on how good they are- OUs are good, BLs aren't great in OU but can be effective with support, UUs generally aren't good and NU is just ew.
One thing I'm unsure of is at what point these tiers arose- I have the impression that playing lower tiers wasn't really a thing back in the day, I'm not sure how accurate it is. I know that until recently smogon's rby tiers consisted of Uber/OU/UU and that many analyses written for UU mons discussed them in OU (the analyses are probably still like that). Then smogon adopted rby2k10's tiering (which was already used on PO), which itself was formed well after RBY was the active gen. Idk what happened for gen 2/3 though. I suppose I'm a little curious as to the history of this kinda thing
The thing is that to my knowledge the approach to tiering back when gen 1-3 were active was very different to what it is now, as there were no formal suspect tests or anything like that- and if there are no suspect tests, what need do you have for a banlist? Instead the tiers served as a means of categorising pokemon based approximately on how good they are- OUs are good, BLs aren't great in OU but can be effective with support, UUs generally aren't good and NU is just ew.
One thing I'm unsure of is at what point these tiers arose- I have the impression that playing lower tiers wasn't really a thing back in the day, I'm not sure how accurate it is. I know that until recently smogon's rby tiers consisted of Uber/OU/UU and that many analyses written for UU mons discussed them in OU (the analyses are probably still like that). Then smogon adopted rby2k10's tiering (which was already used on PO), which itself was formed well after RBY was the active gen. Idk what happened for gen 2/3 though. I suppose I'm a little curious as to the history of this kinda thing
https://web.archive.org/web/20060502234317/http://www.smogon.com/advance/tiers
Nearly 10 years ago. 10 years before that Red and Green were only a few months old. Just think how many more expert players there are now, compared to then. I don't think I saw Netbattle have more than ~200 players at any one time.
200 players entered the latest rby ou tournament, combine that with how much tiering has developed over the past 10 years with the momentum of successive generations, it seems reasonable that they are hard to make sense of.
So the lower tiers were relatively played, just there wasn't enough expertise to question the justifications behind Pokemon placing. After all, most players just want to play with different Pokemon and do not worry about having solid foundations.
I'm confident that Smogon will have modern tiers for the old generations in the next few years though.
Nearly 10 years ago. 10 years before that Red and Green were only a few months old. Just think how many more expert players there are now, compared to then. I don't think I saw Netbattle have more than ~200 players at any one time.
200 players entered the latest rby ou tournament, combine that with how much tiering has developed over the past 10 years with the momentum of successive generations, it seems reasonable that they are hard to make sense of.
So the lower tiers were relatively played, just there wasn't enough expertise to question the justifications behind Pokemon placing. After all, most players just want to play with different Pokemon and do not worry about having solid foundations.
I'm confident that Smogon will have modern tiers for the old generations in the next few years though.
is the BW OU tier at http://www.smogon.com/dex/bw/formats/ou/ up to date?
Excadrill should be added there. He was unbanned following the generalisation of the DrizzleSwim ban into Weather+Weather Speed Ability ban. So you can't use Sand Rush Excadrill on a team with Sand Stream, but otherwise he's fine in OU.
Anyway:
Thank very much, Lutra and Ortheore! What you both said makes a lot of sense :]
Old-gen lower tiers weren't really played much as a competitive thing, just for fun if you got bored. OU is typically "actually good and used" stuff, while BL is/was mons that you'd rarely actually see but the community generally agreed were viable enough in standard OU play if someone wanted to use them. Maybe a handful at best were actual "bans from UU," like RBY Mr. Mime, but mostly Lutra's "nobody really cared" attitude prevailed. We just wanna use different mons sometimes.
Usage stats weren't even a thing until late Gen 3 on the NetBattle forums, then of course we didn't actually tier based off them until mid-Gen 4 here on Smogon.
FREE GARCHOMP
Usage stats weren't even a thing until late Gen 3 on the NetBattle forums, then of course we didn't actually tier based off them until mid-Gen 4 here on Smogon.
FREE GARCHOMP
Correct. Froslass, Gabite, Cacturne, and a few others are de facto Ubers due to that ban. If you're challenging someone or playing with a friend, you could ask them to use the Ubers challenge format if you really want to use them.
I'm trying to get into Gen 1 after a very long absence, but I can't seem to find the ruleset anywhere outside of who is in what tier. I assume these are all part of it, correct me if I'm wrong:
-Sleep Clause
-Species Clause
-Evasion Clause
-OHKO Clause
-Mewtwo/Mew are banned
Assuming I'm correct about all of that, I have two questions:
-Is Wrap banned?
-Do we use RBY mechanics or Stadium mechanics?
-Sleep Clause
-Species Clause
-Evasion Clause
-OHKO Clause
-Mewtwo/Mew are banned
Assuming I'm correct about all of that, I have two questions:
-Is Wrap banned?
-Do we use RBY mechanics or Stadium mechanics?
Wrap is not banned, and we use RBY mechanics. There's also Freeze Clause, which means only 1 mon on a team can be frozen at a time. Fly and Dig are also banned due to an invulnerability glitch they cause if fully paralyzed mid-move.
That's because the ruleset isn't actually posted anywhere that is easily accessible. I've complained about this multiple times with regard to SPL. :[ Even I didn't know we, apparently, don't do Self-KO (suicide) Clause in older gens and just totally replayed tourney matches that end in a tie.
Been thinking about getting back into DPP OU since a year ago or so, and I was wondering, how active is DPP OU right now? Also, would playing on the PS! ladder be a good way to re-learn the metagame, or is there somewhere else I could play that would be more active/would have better competition?
From all the oldgen ladders on PS dpp is one of the better ones. Don't expect the highest competition, but you can expect overall competent players. I'd say there's alot of people hanging around on the smogtours server (smogtours.psim.us) who are willing to play DPP whenever you can't find ladder matches, as well as the oldgens room on PS, where you can find people to play with every now and then. There is also a semi-active IRC channel (#dpp on synirc) where you can go for discussion and help in general.
Smogon Tour will also be starting up again soon. No better way to dive right into it tbh.
Hey Guys
So, a shop in my town is hosting a pokemon tournament 3rd Generation only.
THe Problem is i only have Sapphire, and no friends near me who played pokemon (just moved there a few weeks ago)
So i need a team, that will give me good chances in both double fight and normal 1v1.
I can also only use items and tm that are avaible in sapphire (btw i dont like milotic so...).
I was pretty good back in Gen 2, but i only played Sapphire 1 time through.
So i need a team, with a small explanation of the strategy :)
Hope you guys can help me
Greetings Prime
Btw:
To enter the tournament you have to fight against the shop owner
His team: Raquaza
Groudon
Kyogre
Blaziken
Guadevoir
Aggron
So, a shop in my town is hosting a pokemon tournament 3rd Generation only.
THe Problem is i only have Sapphire, and no friends near me who played pokemon (just moved there a few weeks ago)
So i need a team, that will give me good chances in both double fight and normal 1v1.
I can also only use items and tm that are avaible in sapphire (btw i dont like milotic so...).
I was pretty good back in Gen 2, but i only played Sapphire 1 time through.
So i need a team, with a small explanation of the strategy :)
Hope you guys can help me
Greetings Prime
Btw:
To enter the tournament you have to fight against the shop owner
His team: Raquaza
Groudon
Kyogre
Blaziken
Guadevoir
Aggron
They're active in the tournament scene primarily. DPP right now is holding an unofficial Ladder tournament in the Tournaments section right now so if you want to get into DPP now would be a great time to give it a shot.