Resource Ask a simple question, get a simple answer: NU Edition

[Bluerain]

What's generally considered the more effective Swellow set, Guts or Boomburst?

 

[boltsandbombers]

What's generally considered the more effective Swellow set, Guts or Boomburst?

Boomburst, you have the ability to run Heat Wave as coverage to hit Steels which Guts cannot and it's not killing itself each turn.

e: yea guts is viable but I've honestly never seen it used successfully by a good player in months lol; or a team that would have benefitted from guts more

 

[Bluerain]

Boomburst, you have the ability to run Heat Wave as coverage to hit Steels which Guts cannot and it's not killing itself each turn.

Thank you, that's what I figured. But Guts is still viable, right?

 

[kay]

Guts is still viable for sure but it's a lot less consistent and is easier to wall out/ stall out then the special variants. Physical by itself isn't bad but special is just too good of a set to pass up when using this mon a lot of the time.

 

[Disjunction]

can anyone give me the 'normal' Pinsir sets + abilities etc? there isn't a smogon analysis (get on that, btw) and I wasn't around when it was NU a couple of months back

[OVERVIEW]
With access to Mold Breaker and Swords Dance, Pinsir is one of few setup sweepers that can get past Quagsire in NU. Pinsir's Bug typing allows it to hit many of the Psychic- and Dark-types in the tier very hard. While its typing doesn't offer many resistances, Pinsir's resistances to Fighting and Ground, along with its decent bulk, give it a fairly easy time setting up. Pinsir also has a pretty wide offensive movepool that allows it to adapt to fit its team. Access to Stealth Rock alongside Mold Breaker makes Pinsir one of the few Stealth Rock setters that can set up Stealth Rock on Xatu. However, Pinsir faces competition from Scyther as a setup sweeper, which has a useful secondary typing, higher Speed, and better overall bulk than Pinsir, especially with Eviolite equipped.

[SET]
name: Offensive
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: X-Scissor
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Stone Edge / Quick Attack
item: Life Orb
ability: Mold Breaker / Moxie
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
Swords Dance boosts Pinsir's Attack to extremely high levels, allowing it to easily break down common walls. X-Scissor is fairly powerful with STAB and gives good neutral coverage. Earthquake hits the Poison-, Fire-, and Steel-types that resist X-Scissor, such as Garbodor, Magmortar, and Mawile. Stone Edge rounds off the coverage by hitting Flying-types such as Mantine, Pelipper, Archeops, and Swellow hard, which the other two moves cannot do. Quick Attack is an option over Stone Edge to give Pinsir some very useful priority to work around its less-than-stellar Speed.

Set Details
========
EVs are put into Attack and Speed with an Adamant nature to get as much power as possible. A Jolly nature can be used to outspeed Pokemon such as Mesprit, Adamant Sawk, and Adamant Kangaskhan. Life Orb maximizes Pinsir's damage output. However, Lum Berry is an option that allows Pinsir to set up on Pokemon such as Lanturn and Miltank more easily. Mold Breaker is used to get around common stops to setup sweepers such as Quagsire, as well as allowing Earthquake to hit Weezing and other Pokemon with Levitate. Moxie can be used if Quick Attack is run to make Pinsir's sweep very hard to stop after a few KOs.

Usage Tips
========
The goal is to set up Swords Dance and break the opponent's walls. Try to set up Swords Dance on Pokemon that Pinsir forces out, most notably Psychic-types such as Musharna and Claydol, as Pinsir does not have good enough bulk to take hits as it sets up. Pinsir should act more as a wallbreaker than a late-game sweeper, but Moxie can allow Pinsir to sweep late-game as well. However, with Moxie Pinsir can't break Quagsire, so if Pinsir has Moxie over Mold Breaker, Quagsire needs to be removed before Pinsir can effectively set up.

Team Options
========
Pinsir appreciates Rock-types such as Rhydon and Regirock, which can deal with the Flying-types that Pinsir is troubled by. Pinsir can beat the Grass-types they are troubled by in return. Stealth Rock and Spikes support from Pokemon such as Rhydon, Regirock, Garbodor, and Ferroseed is very useful, as without entry hazards Pinsir misses out on some important KOs. Some notable examples include a very high chance of OHKOing Klinklang after a layer of Spikes with Life Orb and OHKOing Rhydon after Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes at +2 with an Adamant nature and Life Orb. Other good partners are slow pivots such as Lanturn, Musharna, and defensive Mawile, which can safely bring in Pinsir without it taking any damage. Late-game cleaners such as Tauros and Scyther appreciate Pinsir dealing with the walls that otherwise stop them. They can in return deal with the faster Pokemon that Pinsir has to rely on Quick Attack to beat. Scyther especially benefits from Pinsir breaking down the Rock- and Steel-types Scyther otherwise can't touch, but the shared weaknesses are a big downside to using them together. Hazard removal from a Pokemon such as Prinplup or Claydol is appreciated, as Pinsir takes damage from all entry hazards and has trouble setting up at low health. It is also very easily worn down by entry hazard damage combined with Life Orb recoil. If Pinsir is running Moxie, a Grass-type such as Lilligant, Cacturne, or Shiftry is very helpful to deal with Quagsire, as Quagsire otherwise walls Moxie variants completely.

[SET]
name: Stealth Rock
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: X-Scissor
move 3: Earthquake / Knock Off
move 4: Toxic / Rock Tomb
item: Focus Sash
ability: Mold Breaker
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
Stealth Rock allows Pinsir to be a very reliable Stealth Rock setter, as it doesn't have to worry about Xatu's Magic Bounce thanks to Mold Breaker. X-Scissor deals good damage to Psychic- and Dark-types such as Mesprit, Musharna, Liepard, and Shiftry. Earthquake lets Pinsir do significant damage to threats such as Garbodor, Mawile, and Magmortar, while Knock Off lets Pinsir cripple threats such as Rhydon and Regirock. Toxic discourages the opponent from setting up on Pinsir, and it punishes those that do. Rock Tomb is another way to punish the opponent if they try to set up and to get a better matchup against faster Pokemon such as Archeops, Pyroar, and Swellow.

Set Details
========
Maximum Speed EVs and a Jolly nature are used to outspeed as much as possible, including Mesprit, Adamant Sawk, and Samurott. The remaining EVs are put into Attack to boost Pinsir's damage output. Mold Breaker is used to ignore Xatu's Magic Bounce. Focus Sash allows Pinsir to survive any attack in order to more reliably set up Stealth Rock.

Usage Tips
========
Play carefully around Taunt users, as they are the only thing that can stop Pinsir from setting up Stealth Rock. Pinsir's task is to support the team, so attacking just for damage should be secondary to supporting. If Pinsir's Focus Sash isn't broken when it has set up Stealth Rock, it can be useful to save Pinsir to use as an emergency check for something, although it shouldn't be the main concern.

Team Options
========
Pokemon that can prevent or discourage Stealth Rock from being removed, such as Ghost-types and Pawniard, are very good partners, as Pinsir is unlikely to get more than one or two chances to set them up. Frail offensive Pokemon that benefit from a Pokemon's Sturdy or Focus Sash being broken, such as Lilligant, Swellow, Pyroar, and Jynx, appreciate how reliable Pinsir is at setting up Stealth Rock.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============
Pinsir can use Choice Band and four attacks for a lot of initial power, but it's a set mostly done better by Sawk, which gets a better STAB attack and more coverage moves. Similarly, Choice Scarf is an option with Moxie, but the low initial power and the lack of a damage-boosting item makes it somewhat hard to get anything done. Close Combat is mostly outclassed by Earthquake, as Pokemon that resists Close Combat usually resist X-Scissor as well, but it does hit a few Pokemon harder than Earthquake however;for example, it OHKOes both Rhydon and Regirock at +2, as well as hitting Ferroseed and Miltank super effectively. A Substitute + Focus Punch set can be used, but it shares a lot of problems with Close Combat and should rarely be considered. The power boost does make it situationally useful, however.

Checks and Counters
===================
**Flying-types**: Flying-types such as Archeops, Scyther, and Swellow are pretty big trouble for Pinsir. They resist Pinsir's STAB attacks and in most cases outspeed Pinsir, easily taking it out with their STAB moves. They do have to watch out for Stone Edge or Rock Tomb, however, and Quick Attack after a couple of boosts can get past them as well.

**Faster Pokemon**: Due to Pinsir's average bulk and typing, most Pokemon that outspeed and hit Pinsir at least neutrally can deal a lot of damage to it; some examples are Electivire, Haunter, Scyther, and Swellow. Frailer Pokemon such as Pyroar and Haunter can't really switch into it, though.

**Physically Bulky Pokemon**: Some physically defensive Pokemon, such as Mega Audino, Granbull, and Regirock, can survive even a boosted attack from Pinsir and then neutralize it, either by attacking or with Thunder Wave. Moxie variants are also stopped cold by Weezing and Quagsire, as it has no way to get past either of them.

e: also for the record, I've used SD Rocks EQ X-Sciss before and I've seen CB Rocks put in work too

 

[Machineae]

So maybe not so much a simple question, but I think this is the only really appropriate place to ask.

A little while back Kiyo Kiy0 (don't wanna tag him and annoy him tbh) posted a pretty nice pastebin link which was relevant to the meta at the time- it was a list of things to keep in mind while teambuilding eg: fighting check, water check, etc. It was tailored pretty well to how things were at the time. IMO it was a very valuable resource to new and experienced players alike. It seems like since the quick drops NU has gained a bit of extra traffic, but I could be imagining it. I think a new version of that would be a great resource. I haven't been as active as I'd like (worksux) and theres tons of way better players here, so I rather not try and put it together myself but if anyone has a hour or so of time I think it'd be awesome.

edit- ty bolts for telling me how tagging works

 

[MZ]

So why did the council decide to not rank Murkrow? I could ask on VR but it doesnt really need to take over the discussion again. It seemed like it had a generally positive consensus and it's pretty clearly better than other stuff that should be unranked and all the arguments were went over. I'd just be interested in knowing why it was deemed not good enough.

 

[Disjunction]

So why did the council decide to not rank Murkrow? I could ask on VR but it doesnt really need to take over the discussion again. It seemed like it had a generally positive consensus and it's pretty clearly better than other stuff that should be unranked and all the arguments were went over. I'd just be interested in knowing why it was deemed not good enough.

oh lol I forgot

 

[TheFatManatee]

How will vigoroth fit into NU? cuz it's obvious it will be banned.

 

[Kiyo]

How will vigoroth fit into NU? cuz it's obvious it will be banned.

It's already usable in NU. I don't expect its usage to rise or fall, as it will be listed as BL4 in the teambuilder. Vigoroth can run an effective stallbreaker set; however, there simply aren't enough bulky teams to justify it in this metagame and theres a large opportunity cost considering the prevelance of fighting types and the superiority of other normal types.

 

[Amaranth]

Question. Why is Swellow used so much over Chatot?

252+ SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 144-169 (33.5 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
vs
252 SpA Choice Specs Swellow Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 136-162 (31.7 - 37.7%) -- 90.8% chance to 3HKO

Damage differential isn't *huge* but Chatot retains the ability to use Boomburst/Heat Wave/U-turn/Tailwind that is standard for Swellows and can also run Chatter for hax shenanigans when you don't have another way out of the game. Effective stats after Scarf and Specs modifications are 311 SAtk and 421 Speed for Chatot and 298 SAtk and 383 Speed for Swellow; bulk wise Swellows is a 60/60/50 and Chatot has a slightly inferior bulk at 76/45/42, but they both die in like half an hit anyway so yeah.

It seems to me like the only upside of Swellow over Chatot is a small boost to bulkyness and Scrappy which I guess helps against some mons in the tier, but the extra damage and speed would make up for it I think. The only Ghost types I can remember being commonly used in NU are Haunter, Mismagius and Golurk, and while sure being able to not give a single fuck about them and click Boomburst regardless the extra speed might be worth it. The fact that Swellow is everywhere while Chatot is barely ever seen would make me think that it's basicly strictly superior, but I'd think the extra speed, the ability to hit some specific 2HKOs that Swellows misses, and the possibility to bluff a Nasty Plot or a Specs set would be worth it in at least some cases.

 

[Evan.]

The couple % damage isnt worth missing out on rotom which is a top 5 mon in the current meta

 

[Amaranth]

oh right rotom
that explains it, I was wondering why Scrappy was so big over all the (small) things Chatot has over Swellow. :)

 

[Cloud_Vanguard]

Whats a better ability for a Electivire, Motor Drive or Vital Spirit

 

[Davon]

I wouldn't say one is better than the other, they have their uses. Vital spirit lets electivire check vivillon a lot easier and motor drive is useful for blocking volt switch

 

[Cloud_Vanguard]

I wouldn't say one is better than the other, they have their uses. Vital spirit lets electivire check vivillon a lot easier and motor drive is useful for blocking volt switch

Yeah. I decided to run Vital Spirit since there are more sleeping pokemon than electric. Now I just need to think about if I want to make it HP Grass. The same with Magmortar.

 

[xRoyUltra]

Just out of curiosity, how come Throh isn't ranked? It is BL4.

 

[Davon]

NU is filled with lots of fighting types that simply outclass Throh. Sawk wallbreaks better, Hariyama can take fire type attacks which are common in NU, Hitmonchan can spin, and Gurdurr is bulkier with its eviolite. because of how many fighting types are in NU, the tier is filled with plenty of answers to them as well (weezing, garb, mesprit, xatu, musharna, etc.), which also doesn't make Throh any better.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

NU is filled with lots of fighting types that simply outclass Throh. Sawk wallbreaks better, Hariyama can take fire type attacks which are common in NU, Hitmonchan can spin, and Gurdurr is bulkier with its eviolite. because of how many fighting types are in NU, the tier is filled with plenty of answers to them as well (weezing, garb, mesprit, xatu, musharna, etc.), which also doesn't make Throh any better.

Also worth mentioning is that although Vigoroth is ranked its not because it has to be ranked due to being BL4. Its because it actually has a niche over other Normal-types in the tier, unlike Throh which like Davon said is eclipsed by every other Fighting-type in the tier. A very small niche mind you, hence D-rank, but still.

 

[xRoyUltra]

Also worth mentioning is that although Vigoroth is ranked its not because it has to be ranked due to being BL4. Its because it actually has a niche over other Normal-types in the tier, unlike Throh which like Davon said is eclipsed by every other Fighting-type in the tier. A very small niche mind you, hence D-rank, but still.

Why not D or E rank for Throh?
E Rank -> completely useless.

 

[Disjunction]

Why not D or E rank for Throh?
E Rank -> completely useless.

E Rank is a transitional rank for Pokemon that are going from D Rank to unranked. If we were to put every usable Pokemon in E Rank, it would take up entirely too much space.

It's not D Rank because nobody has nominated it for that rank yet. I used it in NU a while back and I can respect the niche it holds in the meta right now, so I might be open to it being ranked if people brought it up in the thread.

 

[ManOfMany]

I've been running a set on Shiftry of SD, Knock Off, Leaf Blade, Sucker Punch. Apparently Leaf Blade is supposed to be illegal with Sucker Punch but it works on Showdown all the same. Is this a Showdown glitch or is Leaf Blade now legal with Sucker?

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-322480533

 

[kay]

It's legal now. Nuzleaf learns it via leveling in ORAS, so it fixes the illegal issues that were there in the past gens.

 

[shiloh]

As far as I know it's still a simulator problem, as the only way to obtain Sucker Punch Shiftry is through a Move Tutor in HGSS, while the only way to obtain Leaf Blade on Shiftry is through Nuzleaf in ORAS, which makes it impossible to have the combination In Game :(

 

[Kiyo]

I've been running a set on Shiftry of SD, Knock Off, Leaf Blade, Sucker Punch. Apparently Leaf Blade is supposed to be illegal with Sucker Punch but it works on Showdown all the same. Is this a Showdown glitch or is Leaf Blade now legal with Sucker?

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-322480533

It's legal now. Nuzleaf learns it via leveling in ORAS, so it fixes the illegal issues that were there in the past gens.

This is incorrect for the reason rozes pointed out.

As far as I know it's still a simulator problem, as the only way to obtain Sucker Punch Shiftry is through a Move Tutor in HGSS, while the only way to obtain Leaf Blade on Shiftry is through Nuzleaf in ORAS, which makes it impossible to have the combination In Game :(

For the record we are aware of this mistake and it's on Joim's to-do list for simulator implementation (along with several other moveset illegalities that slip through the legality checker on PS). Most NU tournament players are aware of this illegality already, so we've yet to have a problem with it. But if you were to bring an illegal moveset to a tournament in any capacity you run the risk of forfeiting the match.