OU Double-Edge Sucks on Snorlax

Mr.E · Dec 31, 2015

A long time waiting with this post, figured I better get it out of the way before my holiday vacation is over. :[ Just in time to benefit my inferior SPL competition...

I would love to have usage stats on Snorlax's STAB option, but alas. Nonetheless, I know lots of people like to use Double-Edge on Lax in Gen 2 over Return and Body Slam. It does more damage in general, obviously, and I've often been told one of its best uses is in the mirror match because it can 3HKO other Snorlax on the switch. The impact of the recoil damage in general is diminished on account of Snorlax's high base HP.

People underestimate the recoil and ultimately it isn't worth using over Return except in very specific circumstances.

On paper, Return is the best choice. Raw damage output is not the trump card in GSC OU it is in later generations as even the most frail of attackers, including Marowak, serve defensive purposes in a team. Raw damage output is less important than relative damage output, the ratio of damage dealt to damage taken. This is especially true of Snorlax, due to its prominence in the metagame as both an offensive and defensive pillar for most teams. Return is 102 damage out, Double-Edge is 120 damage out - 30 recoil in for a relative difference of 90. (Body Slam is 85.)

In practice, here's what our damage looks like against every potential OU target that doesn't resist Normal:

vs. Blissey SOFTBOILED, SOMETIMES GROWL
Body Slam: 34.8 - 40.8% (borderline 3HKO)
Return: 41.7 - 48.9% (3HKO)
Double-Edge: 48.9 - 57.5% (borderline 2HKO)

vs. Cloyster
Body Slam: 21.5 - 25.4% (lol)
Return: 25.7 - 30.4% (lol)
Double-Edge: 30.0 - 35.3% (4HKO)

vs. Exeggutor
Body Slam: 28.0 - 33.1% (4HKO)
Return: 33.6 - 39.4% (unlikely 3HKO)
Double-Edge: 39.4 - 46.3% (3HKO)

vs. Heracross OFTEN CURSE
Body Slam: 32.8 - 38.6% (4HKO)
Return: 39.1 - 46.0% (3HKO)
Double-Edge: 46.0 - 54.0% (3HKO)

vs. Jolteon
Body Slam: 40.5 - 47.7% (3HKO)
Return: 48.6 - 57.1% (borderline 2HKO)
Double-Edge: 57.1 - 67.0% (2HKO)

vs. Machamp OFTEN CURSE
Body Slam: 29.8 - 35.2% (4HKO)
Return: 35.8 - 42.0% (probable 3HKO)
Double-Edge: 42.0 - 49.3% (3HKO through Curse on switch-in; Snorlax outspeeds -1 Machamp)

vs. Marowak NO LEFTOVERS
Body Slam: 28.8 - 34.1% (4HKO)
Return: 34.4 - 40.6% (3HKO)
Double-Edge: 40.6 - 47.7% (3HKO)

vs. Miltank MILK DRINK, OFTEN CURSE OR GROWL
Body Slam: 24.4 - 28.8%
Return: 29.3 - 34.6%
Double-Edge: 34.6 - 40.5% (borderline 3HKO)

vs. Nidoking ...Morning Sun lol?
Body Slam: 32.1 - 37.8% (4HKO)
Return: 38.4 - 45.2% (3HKO)
Double-Edge: 44.9 - 52.9% (3HKO)

vs. Porygon2 RECOVER, SOMETIMES CURSE
Body Slam: 28.4 - 33.5%
Return: 34.0 - 40.2% (borderline 3HKO)
Double-Edge: 39.9 - 46.9% (3HKO)

vs. Raikou
Body Slam: 31.1 - 36.6% (4HKO)
Return: 37.1 - 43.6% (3HKO)
Double-Edge: 43.6 - 51.2% (3HKO)

vs. Snorlax OFTEN CURSE
Body Slam: 24.7 - 29.1% (lol)
Return: 29.6 - 34.8% (4HKO)
Double-Edge: 34.8 - 40.7% (borderline 3HKO)

vs. Starmie RECOVER
Body Slam: 34.1 - 40.2% (borderline 3HKO)
Return: 40.9 - 48.0% (3HKO)
Double-Edge: 48.0 - 56.3% (borderline 2HKO)

vs. Suicune
Body Slam: 22.3 - 26.3% (lol)
Return: 26.8 - 31.5% (unlikely 4HKO)
Double-Edge: 31.5 - 37.0% (4HKO)

vs. Umbreon OFTEN CHARM, SOMETIMES MOONLIGHT
Body Slam: 23.7 - 28.0% (lol)
Return: 28.2 - 33.3% (4HKO)
Double-Edge: 33.3 - 39.2% (unlikely 3HKO)

vs. Vaporeon SOMETIMES ACID ARMOR
Body Slam: 29.2 - 34.3% (4HKO)
Return: 35.0 - 41.0% (probable 3HKO)
Double-Edge: 41.0 - 48.2% (3HKO)

vs. Zapdos
Body Slam: 28.7 - 33.9% (4HKO)
Return: 34.5 - 40.5% (borderline 3HKO)
Double-Edge: 40.5% - 47.5% (3HKO)

Highlighted are the most prominent breakpoints. The main one of importance is the 3HKO-through-Leftovers threshold at 37.5%. This breaks Rest loops which matters greatly against a plethora of Rest users in GSC: some Sleep Talkers, some boosters, occasionally naked often paired with Heal Bell. This is also roughly the 2HKO threshold for +1 Attack (Curse), a 2HKO with a critical hit, and slightly above the OHKO threshold at max Attack (Belly Drum).

How many 3HKO thresholds does Double-Edge reach? Not many. Body Slam is noticeably weak against most targets but Return grabs the vast majority of useful 3HKOs, without needing to step up to DE and subject yourself to the recoil. That doesn't mean the extra damage on DE is totally worthless, as Spikes are quite common and sometimes you get chip damage on things (less often than other gens due to the prevalence of Rest), but the same can be said of the extra damage you subject yourself to (recoil). Ultimately, 102 > 90 (120 - 30) > 85.

Recoil is especially noticeable against Zapdos and Raikou, against which Snorlax is a common counter and sometimes the only good answer on a team. They often use Thunder specifically for its strength against Snorlax, where Zapdos has a borderline 4HKO and Raikou an unlikely one, to force Snorlax to Rest so they can safely Rest themselves or switch to a counter. Snorlax with Return can hit the 3HKO on them, and while DE does guarantee it on Zapdos the recoil also forces you to Rest that much sooner without significant damage gains. You also flat-out kill yourself against Blissey if you don't crit it in 4-5 tries.

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Alright, so what of the Snorlax thing? Sure, DE can 3HKO where Return cannot. However, I don't actually think that's very important. The Snorlax mirror is primarily dictated by who switches into whom and their movesets. The choice of Normal STAB isn't too important here, actually, but the other moves, principally Curse and Sleep Talk. Even so, DE only 3HKOs slightly more than half the time.

Generally speaking, the Snorlax switching in loses. This is less true of Body Slam, as it rarely 4HKOs even with a crit, but it is similarly true of Return and Double-Edge. Snorlax #1 hits Snorlax #2 switching in, then gets a second hit in while #2 Curses, Rests, or fishes for BS paralysis. #1 then gets a chance to crit and potentially KO, multiple if #2 Rests immediately. Speed ties also play a role here because getting two consecutive attacks can provide the necessary damage spike to score the KO.

Generally speaking, the Snorlax without Curse loses. Even one Curse boost more than doubles the relative damage output of the boosted Snorlax against an unboosted one (3/2 damage out, 2/3 damage in = 1.5/.667 = 2.25). Defensively, it also insulates you from dying to non-consecutive crits even if you're not running Sleep Talk, so even switching a Curselax into a non-Curselax forces the opponent to crit before you Rest or it is forced out.

Generally speaking, the Snorlax without Sleep Talk loses. Inevitably, Snorlaxen will force each other to Rest and Sleep Talk gives ST Curselax the opportunity for bonus damage and extra boosts in the short-term. If two Curselax set up and choose to PP stall one another over switching out, Sleep Talk wins in the long run. ST has the most effective PP of any fourth move on standard Curselax, due to its ability to select Rest and waste more time sleeping.

In the latter case, where two Curselax have no choice but to PP stall one another because switching out means getting their entire team slaughtered, Return even beats Double-Edge. Double-Edge is cited as the move to have, because it can 3HKO through boosts with a crit. That's true! Return falls short on its own. But against DE Curselax, the recoil damage also means Return Curselax can 3HKO DE Curselax with a crit! So ultimately it comes down to who crits whom first, and if neither do then Return wins because it has more PP. If both crit, whoever wins the last speed tie wins.

Body Slam generally loses to either. Sometimes it wins if you get an early PAR and the opponent fully paralyzes 3-4 times in a row. But BS Curselax cannot 3HKO Return Curselax even with consecutive crits (it can KO DE Curselax due to recoil... still, consecutive crits) and with such low damage potential, you're more likely just conserving their PP.

...Obviously, non-Rest Snorlax loses to Rest Snorlax unless Selfdestruct or an ultra-lucky Lovely Kiss is involved.

Beyond Snorlax, there are very little added advantages. Eggy is a 3HKO target but Eggy has so many ways to mitigate damage whether it's bonus recovery from Leech Seed or Giga Drain, status moves, Reflect that you can't count on a 3HKO anyway. Starmie is huge Snorlax bait regardless, though on a non-Curse set you might like DE for the shot at a crit OHKO. Marowak is a borderline 2HKO with Spikes, that's useful I guess.

The only target where I really like DE is Machamp. Because DE is a 3HKO through Curse, as -1 Machamp is outsped by Snorlax, Machamp can't threaten to boost against DE Lax after switching in and must immediately start firing off Cross Chops. It's also a borderline 2HKO with Spikes or modest chip damage and Snorlax can withstand one non-crit CC + recoil. If you build a team weak to Cursechamp but can't fix it without also ruining the team strategy you were trying to employ, DE may slightly alleviate the problem at least.

Double-Edge can also 2HKO Skarmory after a Belly Drum, but generally speaking you can't run DE with Belly Drum because the self-damage is too much to handle. And you only care about the 2HKO if you Lovely Kissed it to sleep since it could wake up sooner, Return still 3HKOs if you just need to break Skarm's Rest loop. The other Normal resists will fuck your shit up with strong physical attacks anyway, except Forretress who is either helpless or trades with Explosion.

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TL;DR
RETURN SLEEP TALK CURSELAX IS ALPHA DOG AMONGST SNORLAX GET THE FUCK OUT POSERS
Body Slam, obviously enough, is a shitty damage move but most useful for the PAR if you prefer. PAR is bretty gud.
Double-Edge is maybe very marginally usable on non-Curselax. If you use it on Curselax, you are bad and should feel bad. Return is enough if you value extra damage over paralysis.

Borat · Dec 31, 2015

skimmed. math doesn't include spikes.

edit: also just noticed, the overwhelming of your examples are bold, e.g. favoring de. not sure how you can draw the opposite conclusion?

edit2: also a lot of blanket assumptions. i believe curse+return lose to a growth vap if snorlax is the one switching in.

i think you're better off highlighting where return is better than de (e.g. the same). this list includes umbreon and miltank and LITERALLY nothing else. as a curselax, you're not going to bother with trying to kill either, so... where is return preferred at all?

Mr.E · Jan 1, 2016

Looks like you skimmed your keyboard too because I can hardly tell what you're trying to say, but I'll try.

If you merely skimmed it, you did a pretty bad job skimming it since my bolded numbers (i.e. the important ones) are 10-6 in favor of Return. And that's giving credit to DE for 3HKOing Machamp through Machamp Cursing, a Miltank calc that won't actually matter often in practice (DE does 2HKO on the switch if you crit through Growl/Curse), Starmie for a borderline 2HKO when Starmie can't do shit in the matchup anyway (just because crit DE can OHKO). That's not counting the shit I explicitly mentioned about Eggy not really mattering, Snorlax mirror not really mattering, or DE arguably being a liability against Blissey due to the massive recoil DE accumulates in that matchup. Granted I could've bolded Zapdos's DE numbers, it's nice to turn that 50/50 shot at 3HKO into a sure thing, but the recoil hurts more in that matchup anyway.

In other words, which was the entire point of the post actually, Return grabs almost all the KOs you might care about that Body Slam doesn't. Double-Edge only gets you 2-3 additional ones of marginal importance and mostly just hurts you with the added recoil.

Double-Edge isn't going to help Snorlax against Vaporeon. Curse, Return, Return has a ~97.5% chance to 2HKO (over three turns) or just (2x)Return has a ~96.5% chance to 2HKO with a crit if you're desperate to save a turn. Double-Edge erases that tiny chance of a misfire but it turns Vaporeon's +1 Surf into a 3HKO and +1 Hydro Pump into a borderline 2HKO with Spikes which are, respectively, a guaranteed 4HKO and 3HKO on non-DE Snorlax. So actually, Return Snorlax beats Surf Vaporeon where DE loses. Return Lax beats HP Vap slightly less than half the time, based on Vaporeon's accuracy, and survives with 40% health if it misses once, whereas DE Snorlax effectively trades even when it "wins" because the recoil finishes Vaporeon's job. This might be the best example yet of why DE recoil matters, thanks!

Spikes, incidentally, doesn't actually matter that much to Snorlax but I ignored them for reasons other than making myself look better. Where they matter most, if you're curious:

Putting Eggy at 3HKO range of Return
Guaranteeing the 3HKO on Machamp with Return and making DE a borderline 2HKO
Making DE a borderline 2HKO on Marowak
Making DE a 2HKO on Nidoking
Lets Return 2HKO Porygon2 with a crit and makes DE a borderline 3HKO, through Curse
Guarantees the Snorlax 3HKO with DE

They do help DE Snorlax slightly more than they help Return, but it's not a whole lot either way. The Nidoking calc is the only interesting one, since it's a 25% shot to kill on Lovely Kiss miss, and I mentioned the Machamp thing in my post if you read thoroughly. The rest are not terribly important and DE recoil also puts you in range of a Marowak 2HKO (crit OHKO), if for some reason you're facing one with Snorlax straight-up (perhaps one killed a mon unboosted and the other was switched fresh into it), so DE is arguably more of a liability than a help there anyway. Spikes also helps BD Return grab the OHKO against the bulkier shit except Suicune and Cloyster, where you still need DE, but DE is obviously not generally the STAB attack of choice for Drum sets anyway.

Borat · Jan 1, 2016

oops, my mistake on vaporeon. i believe vaporeon was actually one of the only cases where return is actually flat out better than de.

but you're absolutely wrong about everything else. you're literally highlighting random shit and passing it off as facts. i will humor you:

vs bilssey - why is return highlighted when de averages 2hko and return has impossible 2hko? ohko crit de vs blissey outhealing your pitiful return damage after a crit. either de or irrelevant.

vs cloyster - de or irrelevant. crit + spikes will do some stuff

vs egg - de

vs heracross - why is return highlighted when de gets a potential 2hko? guaranteed 2hko through spikes + crit

vs jolteon - again, why isn't de highlighted when it grabs the 2hko twice as often as return?

vs machamp - good chance for 2hko with spikes

vs marowak - again, decent chance for 2hko with spikes, impossible with return

vs miltank - de or irrelevant. crit + spikes will do some stuff

nidoking - again, decent chance for 2hko with spikes, impossible with return. yet return is highlighted?

porygon2 - whys this even here? this pokemon sucks. vs non-curse it's irrelevant because you just curse up. if you don't have curse, then neither move can win. if it runs curse, de can beat it (DUE TO RECOIL REST LOOP), return cannot. why is return highlighted?

vs raikou - crit ohkos with de spikes. tie/irrelevant because kou doesn't stay in

vs snorlax - de

vs starmie - what the fuck why is return highlighted? either de or irrelevant

vs suicune - irrelevant. but if i had to choose: suicune can only phaze a +1 de lax once, while it can phaze a +1 return lax twice. so de or irrelevant.

vs umbreon - de or irrelevant. crit + spikes will do some stuff

vs vaporeon - return

vs zapdos - guaranteed 3hko vs 40% chance to 3hko, why is return highlighted?

BASICALLY if and when lax crits shit on the switch, that's when double edge is going to swing a lot of those "irrelevants" in its favor. the crit factor, pokemon's all about luck sometimes.

so final counts like 250-1 in favor of de. honestly i'll just give you a pass on this thread since you've really only started using snorlax on your teams in recent times.

yo Jorgen get in here check out this guy

edit:

also you should include some 999 atk snorlax numbers. you'll see return falls short to ko some stupid shit like cloy/suicune/umbreon/miltank. and never forget skarm de crits are sometimes instant wins.

edit2: happy 2016.

Mr.E · Jan 1, 2016

Borat said:
oops, my mistake on vaporeon. i believe vaporeon was actually one of the only cases where return is actually flat out better than de.

but you're absolutely wrong about everything else. you're literally highlighting random shit and passing it off as facts. i will humor you:

vs bilssey - why is return highlighted when de averages 2hko and return has impossible 2hko? ohko crit de vs blissey outhealing your pitiful return damage after a crit. either de or irrelevant.
vs cloyster - de or irrelevant. crit + spikes will do some stuff
vs egg - de
vs heracross - why is return highlighted when de gets a potential 2hko? guaranteed 2hko through spikes + crit
vs jolteon - again, why isn't de highlighted when it grabs the 2hko twice as often as return?
vs machamp - good chance for 2hko with spikes
vs marowak - again, decent chance for 2hko with spikes, impossible with return
vs miltank - de or irrelevant. crit + spikes will do some stuff
nidoking - again, decent chance for 2hko with spikes, impossible with return. yet return is highlighted?
porygon2 - whys this even here? this pokemon sucks. vs non-curse it's irrelevant because you just curse up. if you don't have curse, then neither move can win. if it runs curse, de can beat it (DUE TO RECOIL REST LOOP), return cannot. why is return highlighted?
~~vs raikou - crit ohkos with de spikes. tie/irrelevant because kou doesn't stay in~~
vs snorlax - de
vs starmie - what the fuck why is return highlighted? either de or irrelevant
vs suicune - irrelevant. but if i had to choose: suicune can only phaze a +1 de lax once, while it can phaze a +1 return lax twice. so de or irrelevant.
vs umbreon - de or irrelevant. crit + spikes will do some stuff
vs vaporeon - return
vs zapdos - guaranteed 3hko vs 40% chance to 3hko, why is return highlighted?

BASICALLY if and when lax crits shit on the switch, that's when double edge is going to swing a lot of those "irrelevants" in its favor. the crit factor, pokemon's all about luck sometimes.

also you should include some 999 atk snorlax numbers. you'll see return falls short to ko some stupid shit like cloy/suicune/umbreon/miltank. and never forget skarm de crits are sometimes instant wins.

Blissey - Doesn't really matter but I did highlight DE. Blissey doesn't want to fight Snorlax anyway, if you have Curse it's irrelevant, if it has Growl then it's only relevant insofar as you sit there spamming attack trying to crit through it (and Return does ~90% on a crit anyway so it'll still probably KO because Blissey can't afford to waste Softboiled PP healing early). And if DE doesn't crit in 4-5 hits, you're forced to Rest solely off recoil damage.

Cloyster - Irrelevant regardless, might as well have Body Slam for PAR. If you boost on the switch, both +1 Return and DE are a 3HKO.
Eggy - DE on paper, but in practice mostly irrelevant. Body Slam is probably better for PAR, again.
Jolteon - it's Jolteon who cares, it's not gonna 4HKO you with Thunder like Zapdos
Machamp - mentioned this in original post
Miltank - Irrelevant, cockblocked regardless. Body Slam for PAR.
Marowak - mentioned this in previous response to you and also pointed out recoil is arguably more harmful, as it also results in Marowak 2HKOing back and Marowak is faster
Snorlax - Mentioned in original post. It rarely matters anyway for the reasons I cited, but I mentioned it still because it's kinda the main reason DE lovers support it.

Heracross - Cool, DE can 2HKO with Spikes on the switch. It matters a little bit I suppose, it means Snorlax takes one Megahorn to the gut instead of two, but it's more relevant for the crit DE OHKO. If you're boosting, it doesn't matter since Return and DE are both 2HKOs. If Heracross is boosting, it doesn't matter because DE + Spikes is no longer a 2HKO and DE is an unlikely 3HKO on +1 Heracross. Unlike Machamp, -1 Heracross is still faster to Rest. At this point, Heracross wins and Snorlax should switch out unless you're shooting for a desperate crit.

Nidoking - Both attacks are fine. DE still requires Spikes to 2HKO on the switch and that's still only 25% of the time when LK misses. If you're boosting, Return and DE both 2HKO if you dodge sleeps, have Sleep Talk, or you just try to wait out the damn sleep because Nidoking can't do anything to a boosted Snorlax anyway except what, fish for a double crit?

Porygon2 - YES, YOU ARE FINALLY LEARNING THAT WHEN YOU'RE BOOSTING IT DOESN'T MATTER WHICH ATTACK YOU HAVE! In which case Return is better because it doesn't subject you to pointless recoil. Good point on the recoil-Rest thing though, it's perhaps the one time where recoil works to your advantage, but again I don't think it really matters? Ultimately, P2 runs out of Curse + Recover PP (48) before you run out of non-Rest PP (48-64) anyway, so it's gonna be forced to deal damage eventually and then you can Rest regardless. So DE isn't necessary to win, though it does help conserve attacking PP if Lax/P2 go through the whole thing. Maybe DE can crit for 90%+ and kill though, that might be more relevant since a Return crit is reasonably weaker (sub-80% max) and may not kill if it crits at the wrong part of P2's Recover cycle. Or P2 will just win regardless with a good Ice Beam freeze.

Zapdos - Mentioned in original post. DE recoil guarantees a 3HKO where Return is almost exactly 50/50. However, Zapdos' Thunder is also a ~50% chance to 4HKO and DE recoil guarantees it if Zapdos hits those babies. With DE, you're forced to Rest if the first two Thunders hit where Return is not. DE also guarantees that Zapdos 3HKOs with a crit, where Return Lax has a low-ish chance to survive, and Spikes even gives Thunderbolt Zapdos a chance to 4HKO. Push TBH. And again, if you have Curse, you can just boost and +1 Return is basically guaranteed 2HKO same as DE, due to giving Zapdos one less turn of Leftovers recovery, without subjecting yourself to a potential 4HKO. On that note, DE also gives Raikou the 4HKO with Thunder when it is normally very unlikely to do so.

*shrug* Seems pretty accurate to me. DE is crap with Curse, just as I said. It's not worthless on non-boosting sets, but the disadvantages of recoil are at least as noticeable as the advantage of boosted damage where it matters. It also all but requires Spikes which you insist on including. Viable teams can be made without Spikes, roughly 25% of teams last SPL season went without them (and personally my most dominating win was with a non-Spikes team). It's just another qualifier to the usage of Double-Edge: don't use it on Curse sets, and also use it with Spikes. Not that you have to go out of your way to use Spikes, but it is an added restriction nonetheless.

At 999 Attack, most stuff is OHKOed except for the real bulk monsters. As mentioned in my previous post, DE picks up all the KOs that Return does not, and also can 2HKO Skarmory (mentioned in OP). Spikes helps Return pick everything up except Suicune and Cloyster though (Cloyster is relevant cuz Explosion), and generally DE isn't paired with Belly Drum anyway, since the 50% self-damage on BD combined with "25% target's max HP" recoil all but caps BD + DE Lax out at two kills.

Jorgen · Jan 1, 2016

DE matters even when boosting. Don't have the damage calculator on hand atm, but iirc it forces opposing lax switching into the curse lax ditto to rest after 2 hits if the speed tie is won. Also crit DE guarantees a KO if it comes to +6 vs +6, I think crit + normal return fails to 2 hit. Also crit DE during a Growl turn is about your only hope for smashing thru Umb and Miltank, especially with Spikes. And then there's other uses like the 2HKO on Espeon, doing over 50% to zard (keeps it from drumming in your face when you're in +6 eq range), wearing down non-Curse skarm much faster if you don't have fire, wearing down cloy much faster on the switch, doing more to keep egg from switching in to force you out with the threat of sleep/boom/seed, possibly OHKOing Raikou thru Reflect (iirc), and probably other stuff too.

Yeah, like 90% of what I mentioned is crit-dependent. But Lax is threatened by so little that you get to spam de looking for that crit. At that point, the crit is less "pkmn" and more an eventuality.

Mr.E · Jan 1, 2016

At max boosts, crit DE + two non-crits is a guaranteed 3HKO. It can even 2HKO but it's pretty unlikely. 3x Return with a crit can 3HKO but it's 55-60%-ish to hit the damage rolls. (Obviously, it cannot 2HKO.) That said, if Return Curselax is facing up against DE Curselax, then the recoil pushes Return up to a guaranteed 3HKO and a potential but similarly unlikely 2HKO. Which basically leads to what I said originally, whoever crits wins. But if ~~neither crit, or they crit right when other dude is awake at full HP, or they Sleep Talk Rest at the right time...~~ both survive to the end, Return will win on account of PP.

Additionally, Return Curselax will all but 100% beat Body Slam Curselax unless they get insane crit + PAR luck. The recoil on DE actually pushes BS Lax into borderline 3HKO range with a crit, actually giving DE Lax a reasonable, though still unlikely, chance to lose to BS Lax. Also, if one has Sleep Talk, it will beat a non-Sleep Talker because it has more opportunities to crit a STAB attack (instead of using a useless coverage move) and the potential to hit Rest while already sleeping, which can prevent a timely crit from leading to a kill and conserves PP sleeping more.

Borat · Jan 1, 2016

i hope you realize most of what you're doing now is trying to prove why de isn't amazing and return can "keep up" sometimes. this hardly makes return "better", which was clearly your original claim. de simply does more damage than return, and it comes with a cost. that's that. to say "it does but it doesn't matter, see my biased breakpoint chart" makes you a god damn idiot.

in any case, i do recall other amateur players (i believe someone tried to math out double edge was the best move on machamp) also using MATH and fucking BREAKPOINTS to show stupid ass shit like this. honestly i think breakpoints belong in later generations, where 2 pokemon meet and 1 die. gsc is a continuous game of chipping and whatnot. each additional % DOES matter, hopefully the THOUSANDS of gsc games you've played has taught you that. the recoil damage matters yes, the extra damage dealt also matters. to break everything down in terms of sheer "hits to kill" is probably one of the most basic mistakes you can make while judging a pokemon/move.

yes, OHKO clearly matters, as do 2hkos, and to a much MUCH lesser extent 3hko. 3hkos are totally overrated. rest loops are irrelevant for a pokemon who mostly likely has stat upping. but in a more accurate environment, this really breaks down to a case of "will he manfight me"? because if the answer is no, then basically every number you ran comes with a sea of salt, because no pokemon will die in that matchup. there are a whole slew of almost intangible breakpoints you hit. more damage is always better, because you have 5 other pokemon.

using zapdos as an example, CLEARLY it's a lot more complicated than zapdos throwing thunders and snorlax throwing des. zapdos can probably throw 1 thunder willy nilly, but the second one is somewhat risky not just because of crit, but because of the hp you're left with. if you throw that, then you'd be at like 20%, in which case a rest is coming 95% of the time. so you can send some shit like ttar to scare it, and now you have a slept zapdos vs a potential vap matchup sometime down the line. but more realistically in this scenario, snorlax will probably use 1 de/return, followed by 1 curse (then zap will switch). then will that extra 7% damage make a difference down the line? who knows, maybe. thats 2hko range for gengar, nidoking, and raikou just off the top of my head. crit psychic from egg?

POINT BEING, this whole post neglects additional chip damage. more damage is ALWAYS better. the only time this isn't true is obviously when both attacks ohko, and to a lesser extent, when both 2hko. de is a very complicated move. you have to manage your OWN chip damage while getting more bang for your buck. return is a very PREDICTABLE move. it's very consistent and you know what you're getting. this makes it easier to play with, but it also makes it easier to play AGAINST. why is thunder gaining more and more ground on thunderbolt when clearly thunderbolt is better on paper? because luck is a huge part of pokemon. risks and luck are usually what breaks a game open. this is a very fundamental part of gsc, i actually cannot believe you're trying to use MATHS to show anything at all in gsc.

bottom line: DE grabs more kills than return. period

edit: in any case, consider the sets:

bdrum - return
non-curse - de/bs
curse + st - de
curse + attack - IT DEPENDS

Mr.E · Jan 1, 2016

Obviously DE does more damage than Return. It's a simple fact that 120 > 102. The entire point is that Return is better, note that "better" is not synonymous with "more damaging," because the extra damage DE offers often helps less than the recoil hurts.

I don't think xHKO breakpoints matter less in GSC than other gens, besides maybe RBY, because mons in GSC are so much more likely to be at full HP. Rest is everywhere because everything is bulky and Sleep Talk is at its peak power (being able to Rest while Resting), there's only one entry hazard which doesn't stack, and the lack of good alternatives to Leftovers means everything shrugs off chip damage or that one-layer Spikes if left untouched for a couple turns (opponent switches out). It's just a different breakpoint. In GSC it's the 3HKO threshold to break Rest loops that is most important, which is also a 2HKO boosted (+1) or with a crit, while it might be the 2HKO or even OHKO threshold in later gens (especially starting Gen 4).

And sure, chip damage matters too because GSC doesn't provide you too many quick KOs. Wearing things down over time is more important in GSC than it ever will be again. But as far as basic calculations provided here for reference, chip damage can't reasonably be accounted for because it exists along the entire continuum of the target's HP bar. The best we can reasonably assume is Spikes on non-Flyer switch-ins. However, if you're gonna rail against me that chip damage is soooooo important and I'm intentionally ignoring it just to support my case, surely you can see that just as 120 > 102, it is also true that (120 - 30) < 102. You said the recoil matters, and I agree. So why do you value (120 - 30) so much more than 102? We're not talking about Explosion's effective 500 BP here, 120 damage is a useful but ultimately incremental upgrade over 102. It doesn't automatically slaughter everything in its path, and the 30 backlash is pretty noticeable.

As for Thunderbolt vs. Thunder, the former is not clearly better on paper. It deals more average damage, yes, but it has a lower effective PAR rate so they actually are fair alternatives. Anyway, I get your real point which is that Thunder can deal more damage in the short term due to higher base power, but that doesn't tell the full story. Zapdos doesn't kill itself with Thunder like Snorlax does with DE. Thunder Zapdos doesn't make DE Snorlax 2HKO, it doesn't make other Zapdos/Raikou Thunder 2HKO, etc. DE doesn't have double the odds of a beneficial side effect, because DE and Return don't have any beneficial side effects. Then of course you have to ask yourself what KO thresholds can an accurate Thunder meet that Tbolt does not? My assertion in this topic is that DE doesn't grab many useful ones for Snorlax over Return, what Return already grabs over Body Slam. In fact, the recoil helps your opponent grab it against Snorlax even more often! Maybe Thunder grabs a lot more important one-turn-less KOs for Zapdos/Raikou than Tbolt does? ... Not about to run those numbers, but Zapdos 4HKO on Snorlax is the obvious draw and I know from experience that both Zap/Kou need Thunder to 2HKO Gengar.

Lavos · Jan 1, 2016

mr e sucks

Borat · Jan 1, 2016

So why do you value (120 - 30) so much more than 102?

because that is something under your control as a player. if you KNOW recoil is going to put you in ko range of something, then you simply don't de that turn? it's pretty straight forward i would think. does return give you the option to do 20% more damage when the situation calls for it? no. does return give you the option to play for a 30% para? no. return is return, it does what it does, always, even when you're looking for something else.

thunder ISN'T clearly better, that's exactly my point. but it's similar to de/bs in that it gives you something ELSE to play for with the additional damage/secondary effect. the situation you're given is very clear to both you and your opponent.

because mons in GSC are so much more likely to be at full HP.

this is 100% false.

source: every replay ever.

do you rest with zapdos the second you get hit? no. do you heal instantly with miltank? no. in terms of % of turns at 100% hp, i'd think gsc is one of the least likely gens. SURE everything runs rest, but that's 1 turn at 100%, what about every other turn that pokemon is alive?

BKC · Jan 2, 2016

I decided to look through SPL + WCoP last year to get the stats on Snorlax's STAB alongside its overall moveset, with links to the games if you'd like to read any of them for yourself.

Group 1
Omfuga (Double-Edge, ? / ? / ?) vs. ifm (unrevealed, Lovely Kiss / Rest / ?)
Omfuga (Double-Edge, Fire Blast / Rest / Curse) vs. Shogarth (Double-Edge, Rest / Sleep Talk / Curse)
Audiosurfer (only used Fire Blast) vs. Texas Cloverleaf (Return, Curse / Earthquake / ?)
ifm (Body Slam, Curse / Rest / Fire Blast) vs. Texas Cloverleaf (Double-Edge, Flamethrower / Curse / ?)
Shogarth (Body Slam, Curse / Earthquake / Selfdestruct) vs. Texas Cloverleaf (Double-Edge, Curse / Rest / Sleep Talk

Group 2
Colchonero (Body Slam, Curse / ? / ?) vs. giara (Double-Edge, Curse / Rest / Sleep Talk)
Colchonero (Body Slam, Curse / Lovely Kiss / ?) vs. HANTSUKI (Body Slam, ? / ? / ?)
Colchonero (Body Slam, Curse / ? / ?) vs. Lutra (Double-Edge, Earthquake / Flamethrower / Selfdestruct)
giara (Body Slam, Thunder / Earthquake / Selfdestruct) vs. HANTSUKI (unrevealed, Curse / Earthquake / Rest)
giara (Double-Edge, ? / ? / ?) vs. Lutra (Double-Edge, Earthquake / ? / ?)
HANTSUKI (Double-Edge, Curse / Lovely Kiss / ?) vs. Lutra (Double-Edge, Curse / Rest / Sleep Talk)

Group 3
Moon Light (Double-Edge, Curse / ? / ?) vs. Cased (only used Earthquake)
Bekins (Body Slam, Earthquake / Fire Blast / Rest) vs. Earthworm (Body Slam, Curse / ? / ?)
Bekins (Body Slam, Earthquake / Curse / ?) vs. Isa (Double-Edge, Earthquake / Curse / ?)
Cased (none of the 3 - Curse / Earthquake / Fire Blast / Selfdestruct) vs. Earthworm (Body Slam, ? / ? / ?)
Cased (Double-Edge, Curse / Rest / Sleep Talk vs. Isa (Double-Edge, Curse / Rest / ?)
Earthworm (Double-Edge, ? / ? / ?) vs. Isa (Double-Edge, Rest / ? / ?)

Group 4
Floppy (unrevealed) vs. Lavos (Return, Belly Drum / Earthquake / Lovely Kiss)
Floppy (Body Slam, Rest / ? / ?) vs. Picollo (Body Slam, Curse / Lovely Kiss / ?)
goofball (Body Slam, Earthquake / ? / ?) vs. Lavos (Body Slam, Curse / ? / ?)
goofball (Body Slam, Belly Drum / Earthquake / ?) vs. Picollo (Body Slam, Curse / ? / ?)
Lavos (Double-Edge, Selfdestruct / ? / ?) vs. Picollo (Body Slam, Lovely Kiss / ? / ?)

Quarterfinals

M Dragon (Body Slam, Belly Drum / Earthquake / Rest) vs. Cased (Double-Edge, Rest / Curse / ?)
goofball (Double-Edge, Curse / ? / ?) vs. Picollo (Body Slam, Belly Drum / Rest / ?)
Earthworm (Double-Edge, Earthquake / Thunder / ?) vs. Mambo (only used Curse)

Semifinals
ifm (only used Earthquake) vs. Mambo (no moves used)
Colchonero (Body Slam, Curse / ? / ?) vs. Picollo (Body Slam, Belly Drum / ? / ?)
M Dragon (Body Slam, Curse / Lovely Kiss / ?) vs. Conflict (Double-Edge, Curse / ? / ?)

Finals

ifm (Body Slam, Rest / Fre Blast / Curse) vs. Colchonero (Body Slam, Curse / Rest / ?)

Total games played:
SPL: 46
WCoP: 31
Total: 77

Body Slam
In SPL, Body Slam made at least one appearance in 13 different games out of 46 overall for a total of 28%.
It was used 44 times overall out of 92 matchups for a total of 48%.

In WCoP, Body Slam made at least one appearance in 18 different games out of 31 overall for a total of 58%.
It was used 25 times overall out of 62 matchups for a total of 40%.

Combined, Body Slam made at least one appearance in 31 different games out of 77 overall for a total of 40%.
It was used 69 times overall out of 154 matchups for a total of 45%.

Double-Edge
In SPL, Double-Edge made at least one appearance in 20 different games out of 46 overall for a total of 43%.
It was used 27 times overall out of 92 matchups for a total of 29%.

In WCoP, Double-Edge made at least one appearance in 17 different games out of 31 overall for a total of 55%.
It was used 22 times overall out of 62 matchups for a total of 35%.

Combined, Double-Edge made at least one appearance in 37 different games out of 77 overall for a total of 48%.
It was used 49 times overall out of 154 matchups for a total of 32%.

Return / Frustration
In SPL, Return / Frustration made at least one appearance in 11 different games out of 46 overall for a total of 24%.
They were used 12 times overall out of 92 matchups for a total of 13%.

In WCoP, Return / Frustration made at least one appearance in 2 different games out of 31 overall for a total of 6%.
They were used 2 times overall out of 62 matchups for a total of 3%.

Combined, Return / Frustration made at least one appearance in 13 different games out of 77 overall for a total of 17%.
They were used 14 times overall out of 154 matchups for a total of 9%.

If I made any mistakes please correct me. Go wild analyzing the stuff! Any further stats (like with unrevealeds, or commonly paired moves, etc.) are appreciated since the data's right here. There were a few games that didn't get played or had their logs go unsaved.

Porii Sames · Jan 2, 2016

idk i think return is probably inferior to fursstration

Mr.E · Jan 2, 2016

cool stats BKC 8)

Borat said:
So why do you value (120 - 30) so much more than 102?

Click to expand...

because that is something under your control as a player. if you KNOW recoil is going to put you in ko range of something, then you simply don't de that turn? it's pretty straight forward i would think. does return give you the option to do 20% more damage when the situation calls for it? no. does return give you the option to play for a 30% para? no. return is return, it does what it does, always, even when you're looking for something else.

thunder ISN'T clearly better, that's exactly my point. but it's similar to de/bs in that it gives you something ELSE to play for with the additional damage/secondary effect. the situation you're given is very clear to both you and your opponent.

Oh okay, so if recoil is gonna fuck me I just don't hit my opponent with my primary attack? 102 is definitely much, much stronger than zero. And it's not like Double-Edge gives you the option of not taking recoil when the situation calls for it, you're grasping at straws. Both attacks "do what [they do], always, even when you're looking for something else."

Which is what makes comparing the options so much easier than Thunder vs. Tbolt on the Electrics. Both DE and Return are completely reliable, they always do the same thing. It's just a matter of, "How often does +18 damage for me matter compared to how often does +30 damage matter for my opponent?" Obviously, of course, my assertion in this topic is that the recoil matters more often than the damage. That's not true of the Electric moves. Thunder has higher base power but lower accuracy, so it can do more damage in the short term but averages less damage over time than TB. (DE has a different drawback than inaccuracy, so it always deals more damage than Return.) Thunder also paralyzes more than twice as often and the value of PAR isn't static either. (DE and Return don't have beneficial side effects.)

because mons in GSC are so much more likely to be at full HP.

Click to expand...

this is 100% false.
source: every replay ever.
do you rest with zapdos the second you get hit? no. do you heal instantly with miltank? no. in terms of % of turns at 100% hp, i'd think gsc is one of the least likely gens. SURE everything runs rest, but that's 1 turn at 100%, what about every other turn that pokemon is alive?

Okay, in what generation are mons more likely to be at full HP than Gen 2? Gen 1 is a given, because hey no entry hazards, but otherwise lol. Sleep Talk is much less common in Gen 3 and all but dead after that, so you no longer see Rest. Offense gets better and better each passing gen where you rarely see defensive mons with recovery, anything not expressely built to stall won't have a recovery move even if it learns one which would be sacrelige in older gens. (Alakazam without Recover? Surely you jest.) Leftovers are basically the only viable item in Gen 2 except Thick Club on Marowak or Miracleberry (Lum) for very specialized situations, Gen 3 adds Choice Band and then Gen 4 adds all the other goodies that all but kill Leftovers usage, both offensively (Scarf, Specs, Life Orb...) and defensively (type-resist berries, Mental Herb, Sitrus buff...). Gen 3 gives us permanent Sand and stacking Spikes, Gen 4 gives us two additional entry hazards one of which hits Ground-immune mons.

Just because I site xHKO thresholds doesn't necessarily mean I expect every target to be at full HP anyway. It's just a nice reference point though because mons in GSC are more likely to be at full HP, and the 3HKO threshold in particular hits all of these important breakpoints: breaking Rest loops (Rest can outheal a 4HKO, ignoring crits), approximate 2HKO with a critical hit, 2HKO with a Curse boost (+1 Attack), approximate OHKO with Belly Drum (+5/max). Short of that point you're struggling to break Leftovers, and you rarely get over that point unless you're boosting in which case it's often irrelevant.

Chip damage matters, but as stated there's no way to quantify that anyway since chip damage exists along the entire spectrum of a target's HP bar. A little chip damage might not matter at all, a little more might benefit DE more significantly than Return, a little more than that might benefit Return enough that we don't need DE anymore. There exist infinite possibilities where a mon is going to be at full health, or 99%, or 95%, or 81%, or 73%... It's beyond the scope of analysis. Luckily, since all damage moves benefit from "chip damage" relatively equally, it doesn't do us harm to mostly ignore it except for the relative reliability of Spikes, or DE recoil.

Which is why my basic stance on the matter of Return vs. DE is "102 > (120 - 30)." Sure, if you try to look at chip damage there are certainly many (infinite!) situations one can point to and say, gee I wish I had that extra 18 damage. But there are also many more (infinite!) situations one can point to and say, gee I wish I had that extra 30 damage on Snorlax here. Ignoring chip damage... well, I just see more situations where the recoil hurts more than the damage helps. Especially when boosting, the extra damage is almost totally superfluous.

Jorgen · Jan 2, 2016

Thanks BKC for the logs. The scientist in me wants to just let the data talk. I wonder... if I were to replace all mentions of Double-Edge with Frustration in those matches and see how long it takes for a Pokemon to avoid death, then replace all mentions of Frustration/Return with Double-Edge and see how long it takes for a Pokemon to die that shouldn't have... would those be useful measures of how good DE and Return are when compared to each other?

Borat · Jan 2, 2016

what tends to be more difficult in gsc? killing enemy stuff or keeping your own snorlax alive?

gsc games are longer. stuff stay alive longer. stuff like egg/nido/steelix/misdreavus stay alive throughout the entire game without recovery. there's a reason leftovers is so popular in gsc?

why are we ignoring the granularity of pokemon hp? de hits every breakpoint return does (obviously), and return doesn't. de does more damage. more damage = better. aren't we talking in circles? you're trying to say more damage = negligible because if it were at 100% hp and my goal is to 3hko, then return is almost as good 80% of the time. ok and?

also, just like to point out that "especially with boosting", unless your enemy is a god damn retard, you probably don't get to curse and win turn 1. you need to kill some shit first, make some kills happen. both bs and de are better in this regard, bs probably the best of the 3 honestly. de usually requires a de crit to break the game open, and return's pretty ass at this stuff.

Jorgen · Jan 3, 2016

Also not relevant to GSC OU, but Snorlax's +1 Return almost never 2HKOs Mewtwo, whereas +1 Mewtwo is likely to 3HKO in return with Psychic. So Jolt can go straight to Mewtwo and force Lax to Explode or LK or something. With DE you can play for the crit because Mewtwo needs to Recover stall you to where recoil puts you in kill range, and Bslam obviously gets para shenanigans.

Just a fun fact about how Return stinks even outside OU ;)

Mr.E · Jan 24, 2016

shoutouts to DE 2HKOing other Snorlax with a crit through Curse multiple times this week in SPL

Earthworm · Jan 30, 2016

I wholly agree with Borat on the overemphasis of the #HKO calculations and the underestimation of the importance of doing more damage. I think that considering all of the possible or likely branches that may occur in a particular battle (or over a series of battles) and then evaluating which move is better is impossible. So heuristically I have found that Double-Edge is the superior move on a Snorlax that you want to be maximising your damage output on. If you were relying on it defensively and plan to switch it into 6000 Zapdos Thunders with Spikes up (i.e. not using Rapid Spin anywhere) then I could understand why you might want to stick with Body Slam or Return. In that case, though, you are limiting your damage output in other situations, such as facing stall. Frankly, I personally don't like using Return because I always favour the higher damage output or paralysis threat.

Mr.E · Jan 30, 2016

I mean, doing more damage is doing more damage. The thing is that everyone else seems to neglect the fact that Double-Edge is also doing more damage to yourself. Isn't that just as important?

Obviously Body Slam is better than both anyway, at least Double-Edge actually allows your opponent to play Pokémon...

Longfellow · Jan 30, 2016

By that logic, Explosion is just as bad as Splash because you're also doing more damage to yourself.

(Not to mention Splash's other advantages, such as more PP and not having to worry about resistances/immunities)

OU Double-Edge Sucks on Snorlax

Mr.E

unban me from Discord

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World's Strongest Fairy

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Lavos

Banned deucer.

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Porii Sames

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