Lower Tiers Doubles OU Viability Rankings

[kamikaze]

Heatran to Tier 1.5

there are 3 fire types in tier 1. That is not a reason to dropping heatran but just pointing it out.

anyways
Heatran is a great pokemon on most teams but runs into too many problems to be placed at the very top
If you are running Kang or Diancie you are better off with Talonflame in most cases
heatran stacks its fighting weakness with kang so Keldeo and Landorus will take them both out. Talonflame is who you want to even out your team
heatran stacks its ground and water weakness with Diancie so Landorus and bulky waters take care of both
also it has a horrible rain match up, and in the sun you risk a venu sleep powder - talon does not have that problem
You'll have similar problems using it with heatran
so 3 out of 4 most popular guys are usually better off with talon; although not always

heatran is good but not tier 1 good. has too many bad match ups; move it back down

im gonna intervene here and say that we wont be voting on this in the next round. we just voted on it and expressed our thoughts, so dont expect a change of opinions.

feel free to nom it again in 2 rounds if you really still believe its not fitting of tier 1.

 

[Tymano]

Celebi UR --> 4

Cool grass type that beats Diancie, Keldeo, and Amoongus by virtue of typing, which very few other mons can do, (bar Steel Wing Talon)
Has cool other options like T-Wave, Earth Power, Ancientpower, U-Turn, and Recover to beat its checks.
Terribad defensive typing, but is a good offensive typing in the current meta.

 

[SocialSocialSocial]

Celebi UR --> 4

Cool grass type that beats Diancie, Keldeo, and Amoongus by virtue of typing, which very few other mons can do, (bar Steel Wing Talon)

Ferrothorn
Abomasnow in TR
Zen Headbutt Jirachi(Not that this is relevant, but if this order was necessary for a team it's not like it'd be a horrible option)
Goggles Aegislash
Ludicolo in rain
Deoxys-Attack
Mega Venusaur
Venusaur in sun
Virizion
Chesnaught
Serperior
Mega-Lucario

Not to mention the many other pokemon that will rely on Tailwind or others forms of speed control to finish the job.
It's horrible typing makes it a much worse option than most of the pokemon presented. Really, you just have a lot of better options.

 

[Checkmater]

there's a significant difference in the way those win vs the way celebi wins. All of your examples are either not actually beating those 3, or they have conditional requirements to do so.
The main draw with celebi is u-turn killing you and lacking the same damage as other threats, but it's still kinda neato if it's what you need. Those options can't substitute for celebi in any way

 

[SocialSocialSocial]

not actually beating those 3, or they have conditional requirements to do so.

Ferrothorn - Ferrothorn can OHKO both Diancie, and Keldeo and tank a turn of whatever either one of them can throw, as well as
Abomasnow - Trick room is standard with this pokemon, so it's not correct to acknowledge it as conditional
Zen Headbutt Jirachi(Not that this is relevant, but if this order was necessary for a team it's not like it'd be a horrible option)
Goggles Aegislash - The condition relies on it not being up against Hydro Pump, but otherwise can handle all the of the threats just fine.
Ludicolo - Ludicolo in rain is standard, idk why this would be acknowledged as conditional
Deoxys-Attack - OHKOs literally every one of the threats with Psycho Shift
Mega Venusaur - ...what's the condition
Venusaur - Regular Venusaur isn't played outside of sun, so once again, it's improper to say it requires some condition
Virizion - Tanks a moonblast and will usually have enough to use another move after leaf blading
Chesnaught - I don't understand what the condition would be here
Serperior - Leaf Storm for Diancie and Keldeo, and Dragon Pulse for Amoonguss
Mega-Lucario - Amoonguss can't put out enough damage overtime even with sleep considered to KO Lucario in a 1v1. OHKOs Mega Diancie with both steel moves, and Close Combat. Admittedly has a fair chance to lose to Keldeo
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 310-366 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

 

[Platinum God n1n1]

hitmontop to tier 4

this guy has been my favorite CharY partner because it can easily switch into lando rock slides and start wide guarding
I prefer it over aegi with CharY because its not super vulnerable when wide guard and also can close combat heatrans
Also its great for fake out support to set up trick room or dragon dance, ect

its just a very nice support pokemon that has been slandered as not viable; but it is really great on certain teams as a supporter which is why it belongs in tier 4

pro-tip: dont use the analysis spread. you dont need to ev to survive 2 cress psychics

 

[Checkmater]

Ferrothorn - Ferrothorn can OHKO both Diancie, and Keldeo and tank a turn of whatever either one of them can throw, as well as
Abomasnow - Trick room is standard with this pokemon, so it's not correct to acknowledge it as conditional
Zen Headbutt Jirachi(Not that this is relevant, but if this order was necessary for a team it's not like it'd be a horrible option)
Goggles Aegislash - The condition relies on it not being up against Hydro Pump, but otherwise can handle all the of the threats just fine.
Ludicolo - Ludicolo in rain is standard, idk why this would be acknowledged as conditional
Deoxys-Attack - OHKOs literally every one of the threats with Psycho Shift
Mega Venusaur - ...what's the condition
Venusaur - Regular Venusaur isn't played outside of sun, so once again, it's improper to say it requires some condition
Virizion - Tanks a moonblast and will usually have enough to use another move after leaf blading
Chesnaught - I don't understand what the condition would be here
Serperior - Leaf Storm for Diancie and Keldeo, and Dragon Pulse for Amoonguss
Mega-Lucario - Amoonguss can't put out enough damage overtime even with sleep considered to KO Lucario in a 1v1. OHKOs Mega Diancie with both steel moves, and Close Combat. Admittedly has a fair chance to lose to Keldeo
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 310-366 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

this really just speaks for itself. most of your mons have conditional victories against the three, and don't particularly enjoy their matchups.

 

[Derivatives]

there's a significant difference in the way those win vs the way celebi wins. All of your examples are either not actually beating those 3, or they have conditional requirements to do so.
The main draw with celebi is u-turn killing you and lacking the same damage as other threats, but it's still kinda neato if it's what you need. Those options can't substitute for celebi in any way

I think the main drawback is being OHKOd or 2HKOd by everything that isn't a water type or Amoonguss really, which tends to be most of what Celebi can even touch. It is dead weight vs the ever prevalent THALK and has very big issues with Sun, and even gets troubled by Hail (which does get used, but idt anyone uses hail in winter ever for irony reasons or something). Lastly it has no utility and is really just there to be a really niche offensive grass.

hitmontop to tier 4

this guy has been my favorite CharY partner because it can easily switch into lando rock slides and start wide guarding
I prefer it over aegi with CharY because its not super vulnerable when wide guard and also can close combat heatrans
Also its great for fake out support to set up trick room or dragon dance, ect

its just a very nice support pokemon that has been slandered as not viable; but it is really great on certain teams as a supporter which is why it belongs in tier 4

pro-tip: dont use the analysis spread. you dont need to ev to survive 2 cress psychics

Seconding this, it's got a sliver of a use over Scrafty in that it can hit Heatran harder+provide Wide Guard for those who need it, and considering the fall seasonal towards the end we saw things like Stratos' subtran cockblocking everything shaian did in like r9. Merging the Wide Guard slot with a Heatran check is quite useful for sun.
Also seeing as how some people have been having some mild success with Hitmontop lately, this could see tier 4.

 

[Arcticblast]

Ferrothorn takes huge damage from Keldeo and doesn't actually beat Amoonguss
Abomasnow in TR requires a field condition to win
Zen Headbutt Jirachi takes heavy damage from Keldeo or from Diancie's Earth Power that it cannot heal off
Goggles Aegislash loses to LO Hydro Pump
Ludicolo in rain requires a field condition to win (and does Assault Vest even OHKO Keldeo?)
Deoxys-Attack ok
Mega Venusaur ok but it's a Mega
Venusaur in sun requires a field condition to win
Virizion literally garbage, Celebi is just plain better (and you don't beat Amoonguss and take heavy Moonblast damage)
Chesnaught do you understand the type chart
Serperior doesn't beat Amoonguss unless it's a last-mon scenario and you have Dragon Pulse
Mega-Lucario

Not to mention the many other pokemon that will rely on Tailwind or others forms of speed control to finish the job. field condition that's also found on Diancie teams sometimes!
It's horrible typing makes it a much worse option than most of the pokemon presented. Really, you just have a lot of better options.

Celebi's niche is beating Amoonguss more easily than any other Grass type while also firing off powerful Life Orb boosted Leaf Storms. It can also run Earth Power to smack Heatran around, although Recover makes it a more lasting threat.

idk if I'd put it in 4 considering how few teams it realistically fits on but it does work quite well with Diancie

 

[Checkmater]

sporting speed control but still getting ohko'd by Kanga's sucker punch is also rather annoying

 

[megacyber]

I think celebi is a bit of a stretch for four tbh, which is a shame, cuz it has a pretty cool movepool. Giving lando t "free as fuck" u-turns is just too much of a momentum sink to make celebi viable

 

[Platinum God n1n1]

I think celebi is a bit of a stretch for four tbh, which is a shame, cuz it has a pretty cool movepool. Giving lando t "free as fuck" u-turns is just too much of a momentum sink to make celebi viable

you'll need to come up with some more reasons or hoopaU is trash too

 

[Paraplegic]

you'll need to come up with some more reasons or hoopaU is trash too

The difference is, with speed control hoopa is a legitimate threat due to its insane attacking stats, where as celebi is meh at best.

Honestly I dont see celebi as VR material. It has such limited applications in real scenarios that you're honestly better using one of the plethora of other mons mentioned by social that can do more in any just about any match up.

 

[Arcticblast]

except Virizion, please move this mon to unranked. It's actually garbage

 

[SocialSocialSocial]

except Virizion, please move this mon to unranked. It's actually garbage

Virizion is worth tier 3 at the least

 

[CorruptedOmega]

except Virizion, please move this mon to unranked. It's actually garbage

Its basically a faster, more powerful Breloom w/ no Spore, and it partners well with Diancie. I'm p sure the council voted on it a couple of rounds ago so I don't think it'll drop.

 

[Taliheim]

Virizion isn't /that/ close to breloom, they only share a typing and ways to beat Trick Room (Taunt for Viriz, Spore for Loom). Virizion can actually switch into stuff, and is a bitch to take down since SE hits usually hit its buffed SpDef, while also having handy EQ and RS resistances on its weaker Defensive stat. Doesn't hit as hard as loom and doesn't have priority, but CC still hits neutral targets hard while Leaf Blade does its job against mons that are weak. Viriz would love having a spammable move other than stat-dropping CC though. As for dealing with Trick Room, Viriz' Taunt isn't as spashable as sleep but deals with Goggles users, which helps vs. full TR as they usually tend to run goggles on one or both of their setters, at least from my experience. Viriz also beats outspeeds and KO's full-health kang, which Breloom can't attest to.

 

[megacyber]

Tbh, I'd be pretty happy seeing Virizion going to rank four. it's just not a good mon.

 

[Platinum God n1n1]

An absolutely stupid amount of discussion has gone into discuss mediocre at best grass types

Suicune to tier 1.5
So bulky it can will games with left overs and snarl
Checks aegi, beats lando
Reliable speed control
Key threats are tier 1 amoongus and should be tier 1 thundy

 

[Bughouse]

tbh Virizion holds its own and it inarguably deserves the rank 3 that it has rn. It was used 10 times in the most recent Fall Seasonal (out of 114 games, or 228 teams). 10/228 gives it a usage of 4.39% aka OU, not something super niche. And in those 10 games it went 5-5, so it's not like it was a drain on the team. Coincidentally, that's the same usage and win record that Blaziken had, and we have Blaziken in tier 2 right now. It's a pretty clear 3. Not 4.

A reminder of how it actually does pretty ok against tier 1 mons:

lose

"lose" but can't get redirected or spored or rly damaged if shroom has Giga... so Virizion continues to threaten the other opposing mon

outspeeds and Stone Edges

technically beats 1 on 1 since it lives moonblast and ohkoes back with Leaf Blade... at the very least it threatens, hardly a total loss

obviously beats, unless behind a sub already. technically can beat it anyway with Stone Edge then CC, since Heat Wave does not kill, even with the 2 rounds of LO

outspeeds and CCs

if win speed tie, total win. if lose speed tie, still technically a win since Virizion lives sword

wins if it comes in on Lando locked into SlideQuake. Loses if Lando-T comes in on it.

lol, though at least it can beat with redirection + stone edge, not totally helpless.

 

[megacyber]

the thing is, virizion only threatens things it hits super effectively with its stabs... which isnt many things, tbh. At least, it isnt enough to make virizion worthwhile. Also, Virizion is the easiest thing ever to switch in on, because it hits weak as piss. Basically, this mon fits the tier four description pretty well, because usually you want to use a different grass (read: amoonguss/breloom)

 

[talkingtree]

So you're saying that a Stone Edge Virizion doesn't threaten Zard Y? Also, fighting stab is great in a meta that basically requires you to run a steel type. It's not great, but Life Orb Virizion still does KO Kang, at a fairly similar roll to Keldeo's Secret Sword damage to Kang. So calling it "weak as piss" is pretty inaccurate. Imo it's deserving of Tier 3.

Regardless, I think pretty much everything that can possibly be said about Virizion has been said so let's try to move on and let the VR council decide for themselves.

 

[Stratos]

scrafty -> 2

scrafty: it's not just for trick room anymore

 

[megacyber]

scrafty -> 2

scrafty: it's not just for trick room anymore

hmu with some replays imo

 

[Stratos]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/doublesou-320912826 (this team also won vs raikoo and shoulda won vs zach, but got haxed)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-doublesou-115723