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Lower Tiers Doubles OU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter kamikaze
- Start date
- Status
tehy
Banned deucer.
on my current team, I was using Scrafty before I was using Terrakion
i don't know, on paper scrafty has plenty of cool utilities. In practice it was just weak as hell and didn't accomplish that much.
guess i don't have any deep analysis other than that, I used it and was very dissatisfied, so i returned my scrafty for a refund.
CALL THE POLICE, CHECK WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG
annyways, suicune to 1.5 is interesting for sure, but idk... It's consistent tailwind but suffers from
Realistically, some of these fighting types need to drop. Keldeo, Virizion, to name a few. They simply just aren't that good anymore, with Talonflame reaching greater heights and becoming more of a pervasive threat in Doubles.
I used to love keldeo but using it now just kinda feels so ass. Also pretty sure it's seen much less usage as of late than would be expected of a tier 1 mon. Still has that bad Amoonguss mu that is a partner to so many of the things it's trying to beat. Thundurus is also on the rise it seems.
As for virizion, we keep seeing bughouse bring up "it beats 6/8 of tier 1" but there's a lot more to viability than that. Considering a piss-poor talon matchup, being a physical attacker that's already quite weak, you've got a mon that isn't deserving of being ranked very high, and usage reflects this. It's just got so many matchups where it just rolls over and takes it up the butt.
Seconding hitmontop -> 4. This thing is fun to use (safety goggles is also p cool, giving you a nice kang+amoong and heatran+amoong check in one) and the extra utility can be worth losing dark STAB. Life Orb Top is basically a monster damage-wise. Considering how constrained teams are to find good Fake Out users (besides Kang) this thing deserves to be ranked at 4.
Okay checkmater I'm sorry but I need to get this off my chest. Do you understand how metagames work? You've been preaching Talon and Jirachi for a long, LONG, time. So long, in fact, that when you started, usage stats and popular sets were quite different, and Talon and Jirachi were not that good. It seem like you have this idea that everyone's against your ideas by principal. But it's not that at all, at least in my case - it's that your ideas didn't accurately reflect the meta that the rest of us were playing in. Now, you got some seriously lucky metashifts and Talon and Rachi are great and you're claiming to be this genius and that really doesn't make sense.
So that this isn't just a callout/explanation of how viability works and is somewhat VR related, I'm gonna say that Greninja should probably drop to Tier 4. It's super frail, doesn't have viable priority (Water Shuriken is a roll to OHKO Talon if you get 4 hits and it's holding a LO - that's not viable), and it can't run enough moves to take advantage of its fantastic movepool. It also never really seems to hit as hard as it should - Protean is great, yes, but remember that Greninja still only has a SpA stat of 103. To put that into perspective, that's barely higher than Tangela or Gastly and is actually weaker than the Rotom formes. It has a niche in spamming Blizzard for hail teams or in providing some wacky form of coverage that you need to hit a few specific mons, but based on the fact that I haven't seen a serious team with Greninja in a LONG time, it's time for it to drop.
So that this isn't just a callout/explanation of how viability works and is somewhat VR related, I'm gonna say that Greninja should probably drop to Tier 4. It's super frail, doesn't have viable priority (Water Shuriken is a roll to OHKO Talon if you get 4 hits and it's holding a LO - that's not viable), and it can't run enough moves to take advantage of its fantastic movepool. It also never really seems to hit as hard as it should - Protean is great, yes, but remember that Greninja still only has a SpA stat of 103. To put that into perspective, that's barely higher than Tangela or Gastly and is actually weaker than the Rotom formes. It has a niche in spamming Blizzard for hail teams or in providing some wacky form of coverage that you need to hit a few specific mons, but based on the fact that I haven't seen a serious team with Greninja in a LONG time, it's time for it to drop.
Except that's not how talonflame/jirachi's viability worked at all. There's always a disconnect between what's really good and what is acknowledged as good. You always have a difference in high-level play vs other. Look at league of legos, cardstone, anything really. Things are good, but not sufficiently explored, until high level competition (spl), then the meta shifts dramatically as players reveal particular sets/ideas that have always been strong but lurking in the wings. Talonflame/Jirachi were always good, just not used as much as they should have been, not because certain sets/mons became more popular (with the possible exception of skymin ban --> talon more viable) but because people didn't realize how fucking good Jirachi is. As I've pointed out in the past, Jirachi's winrate has always been really solid, and Talonflame will always be Talonflame. In fact, I'd argue they flourished but are on the down from their viability, say, a few weeks before spl due to us seeing much less Amoonguss than previously, simply because these two threats are so incredibly common now, along with other common Amoonguss checks, while the things Amoonguss destroys are on the low.
Sure it was immature af for me to be literally 7 years old and "look at me I'm very smart" but don't put it to "oh they're only good because meta shifts" because this isn't true at all.
I'd say Greninja is still tier 3 material. I talked this over a long time ago back a little after skymin ban, but it's a solid option over Keldeo in lots of situations, for beating fairies, not losing directly to Diancie, and a much better matchup against Char Y. It's certainly not as strong as Keldeo for beating Kang/Lando/Trick Room in general but it's got significant matchups that can be good for other teams. Also, water shuriken kos Talonflame after Talonflame's recoil on killing greninja after with only 3 hits, and is almost guaranteed to outpriority and KO Talonflame if it comes in after a partner dies to Talon, something almost nothing in the tier can do bar life orb Deoxys or Jolly/Naive Talonflame.
Edit: @below Keldeo rising happened ages ago and it's falling now. That meta shift is something that has long since happened, also we're definitely seeing more tran than before
Sure it was immature af for me to be literally 7 years old and "look at me I'm very smart" but don't put it to "oh they're only good because meta shifts" because this isn't true at all.
I'd say Greninja is still tier 3 material. I talked this over a long time ago back a little after skymin ban, but it's a solid option over Keldeo in lots of situations, for beating fairies, not losing directly to Diancie, and a much better matchup against Char Y. It's certainly not as strong as Keldeo for beating Kang/Lando/Trick Room in general but it's got significant matchups that can be good for other teams. Also, water shuriken kos Talonflame after Talonflame's recoil on killing greninja after with only 3 hits, and is almost guaranteed to outpriority and KO Talonflame if it comes in after a partner dies to Talon, something almost nothing in the tier can do bar life orb Deoxys or Jolly/Naive Talonflame.
Edit: @below Keldeo rising happened ages ago and it's falling now. That meta shift is something that has long since happened, also we're definitely seeing more tran than before
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storm drain is a good ability and it beats talonflame, heatran, lando
it just generally does water things, except it has storm drain and doesnt lose to thundy
edit: also glop glop
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Talonflame and Jirachi are benefiting from a rise in Keldeo and a drop in Heatran, both of which came from a rise in Kyurem-B, as well as a metagame gradually growing more and more offensive
all of these Pokemon are very good but the former two weren't always tier 1 good; meta shifts are important to acknowledge
all of these Pokemon are very good but the former two weren't always tier 1 good; meta shifts are important to acknowledge
time for a serious nom
Zard Y to 1.5
I've given this a lot of thought, and due to current meta trends, I simply don't think that Zard is as good in this meta as it was, say, three months ago. The fairly recent rise of Mega Aerodactyl in competitive play, as well as Jirachi+Diancie cores (as well as other Jirachi cores) are really troubling for Zard Y. In addition, these cores encourage using counters to them that also happen to counter Zard, such as Landorus-T, offensive Thundurus, and Talonflame. This can be seen in SPL, where Zard Y has gone 2-4, where one of those wins was against another Zard Y team. Honestly, due to increases in the usage of the above threats, as well as Talonflame (and probably other mons too, but I can't think of anything right now) I feel like Zard Y is no longer a tier one mon in this metagame. I'd really like to hear your guys' thoughts on this.
Zard Y to 1.5
I've given this a lot of thought, and due to current meta trends, I simply don't think that Zard is as good in this meta as it was, say, three months ago. The fairly recent rise of Mega Aerodactyl in competitive play, as well as Jirachi+Diancie cores (as well as other Jirachi cores) are really troubling for Zard Y. In addition, these cores encourage using counters to them that also happen to counter Zard, such as Landorus-T, offensive Thundurus, and Talonflame. This can be seen in SPL, where Zard Y has gone 2-4, where one of those wins was against another Zard Y team. Honestly, due to increases in the usage of the above threats, as well as Talonflame (and probably other mons too, but I can't think of anything right now) I feel like Zard Y is no longer a tier one mon in this metagame. I'd really like to hear your guys' thoughts on this.
Jirachi is not overpowered, but you could argue that it's unhealthy for the meta. As Stratos mentioned it allows pokemon(such as Azumarill) to freely set up. With Jirachi gone a lot of players would most likely feel a Mega-Salamence suspect is in order, and while it may seem like the meta is in fact growing, or becoming larger it's really just a 1 for 1 trade. The removal of Jirachi from DOU seems like it'd be more harmful than beneficial, at least at the time with mons like Togekiss feeling so useless, leaving us with very few viable redirection options outside of Amoonguss, if any(Please don't yell parasect at me :^(). Lastly, the prevalence of Jirachi is one way to hold back talonflame who is at the least equally harmful to the meta, if either is at all.
Edit: I also agree with hitmontop for tier 4, but I really don't see how you could possibly refer to Virizion as weak, and hitmontop as the opposite. The gap in their Atk stat is a mere 5 points, it really doesn't make sense to me. I could understand if you called one mediocre, and one weak(maybe), but treating it as though there's a huge gap between the stats is ridiculous.
Edit: I also agree with hitmontop for tier 4, but I really don't see how you could possibly refer to Virizion as weak, and hitmontop as the opposite. The gap in their Atk stat is a mere 5 points, it really doesn't make sense to me. I could understand if you called one mediocre, and one weak(maybe), but treating it as though there's a huge gap between the stats is ridiculous.
Regular Abomasnow -> UR
Really horrible stats and typing. There's no reason to use the regular version of this pokemon. Middling speed, piss weak. Just bad.
Regular Diancie -> UR
A bad trick room setter. Not bulky enough, the life orb set is bad. Rock is a generally bad defensive typing and it's just not going to take enough hits and do enough back to really be a big threat. Way too many better trick room setters.
Hariyama -> UR
"I need a fighting type fake out for my team, I better pick Hariyama" - literally no one ever, why is this here. It's a bad version of hitmontop or scrafty or conkeldurr. There's no reason to use this thing.
Raichu -> UR
This is like a bad electric type weavile or liepard. Like, cool, it's got fake out and encore, but anyone with half a brain can play around a Raichu. This thing was "good" for 1 week, maybe. This can definitely go.
Really horrible stats and typing. There's no reason to use the regular version of this pokemon. Middling speed, piss weak. Just bad.
Regular Diancie -> UR
A bad trick room setter. Not bulky enough, the life orb set is bad. Rock is a generally bad defensive typing and it's just not going to take enough hits and do enough back to really be a big threat. Way too many better trick room setters.
Hariyama -> UR
"I need a fighting type fake out for my team, I better pick Hariyama" - literally no one ever, why is this here. It's a bad version of hitmontop or scrafty or conkeldurr. There's no reason to use this thing.
Raichu -> UR
This is like a bad electric type weavile or liepard. Like, cool, it's got fake out and encore, but anyone with half a brain can play around a Raichu. This thing was "good" for 1 week, maybe. This can definitely go.
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Stratos
Banned deucer.
mono fighting coverage is just so incredibly dicks, and as i use hitmontop more than...most people since i get a huge kick out of using shake's team, i don't think it deserves to be ranked. I played 4 games with hitmontop last night and didnt even click CC once because more than half this fucking tier resists fighting
i think hariyama has a niche as a more solid bisharp switch in if your team is really bish weak and you still want fake out, which conk doesnt get. i mean, i dont think its more than a tier 4 mon, but yeah. I agree with your other points though
Of course Hariyama has a niche. Its CC, even without an item boost, outdamages Scrafty's LO Low Kick or Drain Punch.
252+ Atk Life Orb Scrafty Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 361-429 (102.5 - 121.8%)
252+ Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 408-480 (115.9 - 136.3%)
That frees up an item slot for things like Vest. It's also nice to have access to Wide Guard. And to not be Fighting weak like Scrafty. All these things make it sound a lot like Conkeldurr... but Conkeldurr doesn't have Fake Out.
252+ Atk Life Orb Scrafty Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 361-429 (102.5 - 121.8%)
252+ Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 408-480 (115.9 - 136.3%)
That frees up an item slot for things like Vest. It's also nice to have access to Wide Guard. And to not be Fighting weak like Scrafty. All these things make it sound a lot like Conkeldurr... but Conkeldurr doesn't have Fake Out.
for me I always thought top was bad then I used it a bit and life orb top ohkod diancie and the added utility is just so noticeable
I just kinda like it for Trick Room, sure it's mono-fighting coverage but lets be real conk (and hari) is essentially monofighting coverage too, without the utility but with the mach priority (top can run mach tho btw). A lot of the slow fighting types don't beat hitmontop viability-wise by enough for me to say that hitmontop doesn't deserve to at least have a solid fingerhold into tier 4. Fake Out feint is also incredibly sexy.
how do you need wide guard so much under trick room over scrafty's dark offensive typing, as well as LO non stab bullet punch to hit mega diancie when things like jellicent/ferrothorn/gourgeist/psychic reuni/heatran/jirachi/camel/rhyperior/rhydon/hell even mawile to run as options for trick room?
edit: ignore this incoming part
The more you invest in attack purely to get closer to an OHKO with bullet punch at +0 against a +0 mega diancie that doesn't have any redirector (talking about you jirachi :IIIII) next to it, the more likely Moonblast is to get an easy OHKO on you. Also if at -1 or if the opposing diancie is at +1 or higher you face real problems dealing damage, as your output becomes shit.
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmontop Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Diancie: 140-166 (58 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmontop Bullet Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Diancie: 140-166 (58 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(basically same thing but w/e)
also close combat does more anyway so unless you're outside of trick room and there's no redirector for diancie and there's no intimidate debuff on hitmontop and mega diancie has no boosts, you have 0 reason to ever run bullet punch in ur life.
edit: stop ignoring now
At my above statements: more revised since I'm a dumbass and didnt know he meant close combat, but basically the CC OHKO requires you to get a 3/4 chance while at +0 against a +0 mega diancie without redirection that doesn't get the 13/16 chance to KO you with moonblast and isn't switching out due to trick room, which is unlikely.
I assumed bullet punch because I assumed out of tr which was dumb,,,,,
conkeldurr or hariyama do what top intends to do a lot better since top only hits select targets with chances to KO and has worse bulk than either of the two, and its utility is: fake out, feint, intimidate... hariyama can replicate 2 (if you count wide guard as worth mentioning, 3) of those things but I guess all that hitmontop at all has over it is the ability to get things at -1 while setting tr which I guess is nice but doesn't go too far since kangaskhan is still capable of mass destruction at -1 and diancie is immune to the debuff pre-mega.
I agree that it should be tier 4 but trick room top is just, no.
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Good thing he doesn't run Bullet Punch then
Either he meant defensive coverage or I'm missing something
252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Diancie: 231-273 (95.8 - 113.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Pretty sure he just meant Close Combat
Pretty sure he just meant Close Combat
Mega Gyarados -> 4
So while my last set of nominations was sort of a collective "let's get these off of here to steer newer players in a better direction" this is a nomination for a Pokemon that I think deserves a spot on this list.
In my opinion, the best set for this Pokemon is easily this one:
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Dragon Dance
- Protect
With Jolly, Mega Gyarados outspeeds scarf Lando T at +1 and KOs it with Waterfall at +0. Also, a Jolly nature allows Gyarados to outspeed other base 80s that boost speed, notably Blaziken and scarf Hoopa U, and it allows Mega Gyarados to speed tie with DD variants of its non-mega counterpart.
Mega Gyarados has some serious bulk, especially factoring in its pre-mega Intimidate. It takes a Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice with no investment so it can DD right in front of it and KO back in a pinch. Due to Intimidate, you can take hits from Mega Kang and Lando T, common physical threats, surprisingly well.
You don't make much use of Mold Breaker, except for beating Gastrodon and fucking over n1n1's Cradily teams, but a boosted Mega Gyarados can hit with some serious force.
Anyways, it's a decent niche booster with a cool typing that hits pretty hard at +1. Pairs really, really well with Jirachi.
So while my last set of nominations was sort of a collective "let's get these off of here to steer newer players in a better direction" this is a nomination for a Pokemon that I think deserves a spot on this list.
In my opinion, the best set for this Pokemon is easily this one:
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Crunch
- Dragon Dance
- Protect
With Jolly, Mega Gyarados outspeeds scarf Lando T at +1 and KOs it with Waterfall at +0. Also, a Jolly nature allows Gyarados to outspeed other base 80s that boost speed, notably Blaziken and scarf Hoopa U, and it allows Mega Gyarados to speed tie with DD variants of its non-mega counterpart.
Mega Gyarados has some serious bulk, especially factoring in its pre-mega Intimidate. It takes a Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice with no investment so it can DD right in front of it and KO back in a pinch. Due to Intimidate, you can take hits from Mega Kang and Lando T, common physical threats, surprisingly well.
You don't make much use of Mold Breaker, except for beating Gastrodon and fucking over n1n1's Cradily teams, but a boosted Mega Gyarados can hit with some serious force.
252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 326-386 (102.1 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 314-372 (96.9 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 339-399 (112.6 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 92+ Def Jirachi: 372-440 (92 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 426-504 (110.3 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 272-324 (82.1 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 318-375 (114.3 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 314-372 (96.9 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 339-399 (112.6 - 132.5%) -- guaranteed
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 92+ Def Jirachi: 372-440 (92 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 426-504 (110.3 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 272-324 (82.1 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 318-375 (114.3 - 134.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Anyways, it's a decent niche booster with a cool typing that hits pretty hard at +1. Pairs really, really well with Jirachi.
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