Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

[CharizardIsMeh]

Kingler to C+ : disagree
Even if it's a bit hard to setup in a tier filled with Grass and Electric types, it still has setup opportunities thanks to a nice 130 Defense.
And if he can setup, he's outsped only by base 110 scarfers and more, and he can deal serious damage with Knock Off + Crabhammer and Ice Beam to lure Tangela.

 

[Magnemite]

Ditto from C- to D
Golduck from B+ to B
Vullaby from A- to A
Lumineon from C to C+

 

[Cheryl.]

Seaking B- - - - > B
I really like Seaking in this meta. He's a really nice Electric check as most of them can't touch him unless they're running something like HP Grass thanks to Lightning Rod, and his weird but cool movepool lets him dismantle a lot of teams, Knocking Off items like Eviolites, hitting decently hard with a STAB Waterfall, hitting Grass types hard with Megahorn, and then running a filler move like Drill Run or Rest with Chesto Berry to either hit Electric types harder (?) or keeping Seaking alive longer. One of the most important things about Seaking is that he's one of the few things that can counter Rotom-Frost, which is really important as normal Electric checks like Stunfisk and Golem can't do so thanks to the threat of Blizzard, and since Rotom-F is such a big threat right now, this really helps Seaking's overall viability right now. Overall, while Seaking does face some competition for a moveslot from other Water types, who can provide more offensive presence or sweeping potential, but Seaking's immunity to Electric attacks along with it's unique moves such as Knock Off and Megahorn along with being a realiable Rotom-F answer (SubWisp is annoying though) makes me believe that Seaking is viable enough for a rise to B rank.

 

[Anty]

Few noms

Gorebyss down to B:
This has been really underwhelming for me, as the meta is very overprepared for it. Pretty much every team rn will have a Choice scarf user which pretty much means goreb will not sweep unless the opp misplays with. If they dont have a scarfer they will have something like politoed or roselia, as most teams are thoroughly prepared for water-types, and the best chance for it to sweep would be paired with like cb floatzel vs that type of team, which isn't much. This is why i personally find golduck better as you trade ability to run electric berry + more power (golduck's strength is usually enough) for much more speed. The main reason for the golduck drop was that b+ was overcrowded, and if golduck isnt good enough, gorebyss definitely isn't.

Lickilicky down:
Idk where but when I ask people what its niche actually is, i don't get an answer. Generally offensive sets are outdone by stoutland and bouff, and bulky ones by audino and munchlax, meaning its only actual niche is either explosion, which still imo doesn't justify usage as if you need to break tangela use bouff, or offensive wish sets which seem mediocre at best

Trapinch to c+:
Trapinch is very good at what it does, and has no competition for the job. Trapping is so useful rn as it can completely shift momentum and change the game, as if there is one mon on the opp's team which you want trapinch to trap, like stunfisk, and you trap it, then the game is much easier for you, however trapinch being there means the op is much less likely to send out that mon which also benefits your team (i dont have replays but i have broken stunfisk teams with zebstrika without switching trapinch in, for example)

Lapras to B-:
Lapras is pretty nice as a choice specs user as its high bulk means it has no problem taking a hit then firing one off, and its also a nice check to water types like floatzel. Between Surf/hydro pump and freeze dry nothing really wants to come in, for example av bouff gets 3hko'd and only 2hko's you back, grumpig is 2HKO'd etc. There aren't many common ice resists outside of grumpig which gets smashed by a surf.

B+ is large but there aren't many changes i feel strongly about other than gorebyss, i could maybe see metang and politoed up, and maybe sawsbuck down i guess.

 

[zdrup15]

I'm not gonna comment on the other noms but I'd like to support this one:

Trapinch to c+:
Trapinch is very good at what it does, and has no competition for the job. Trapping is so useful rn as it can completely shift momentum and change the game, as if there is one mon on the opp's team which you want trapinch to trap, like stunfisk, and you trap it, then the game is much easier for you, however trapinch being there means the op is much less likely to send out that mon which also benefits your team (i dont have replays but i have broken stunfisk teams with zebstrika without switching trapinch in, for example)

Lately I've build some teams with trapinch and this thing is good. I've used both the resttalk set and the attacking trapper set and it works relatively well. Resttalk shuts down electrics, probopass, most audino sets (damn you encore+heal bell, you're really annoying!) and a few other solid mons while the attacking set can almost always guarantee you the death of one threat but it usually fodder after that, thus being less consistent. Not an amazing mon by any means but a very decent one.

 

[RawMelon]

I disagree with Byss dropping to B. While I do agree that most scarfers have no problem revenging Byss, the impact that has on the game can be substantial. Even the threat of a Byss coming in on a passive mon and getting a kill can force some nice situations for your team. Also its presence means that you basically have to save your scarfer unless you want to get swept later, which isn't always wasy to do. And when Byss does get in (which isn't hard to do at all) in most scenarios it's either getting a kill or dealing some heavy damage. I've personally used the Modest LO set and have found that better than White Herb in most situations since it OhKOs basically everything after a smash and can 6-0 in some match ups (such as stall) as they are generally forced into a passive mon that you can set up on.

I also think Byss is better than Golduck simply because it isn't as boom or bust as duck. There are certain matchups that simply won't allow Golduck to set up a Rain Dance and if it does often it still isn't enough to clean up. Without that rain boost Golduck simply isn't much of a threat while Gorebyss does't necessarily need its boosts to break a mon or 2.

 

[Anty]

I disagree with Byss dropping to B. While I do agree that most scarfers have no problem revenging Byss, the impact that has on the game can be substantial. Even the threat of a Byss coming in on a passive mon and getting a kill can force some nice situations for your team. Also its presence means that you basically have to save your scarfer unless you want to get swept later, which isn't always wasy to do. And when Byss does get in (which isn't hard to do at all) in most scenarios it's either getting a kill or dealing some heavy damage. I've personally used the Modest LO set and have found that better than White Herb in most situations since it OhKOs basically everything after a smash and can 6-0 in some match ups (such as stall) as they are generally forced into a passive mon that you can set up on.

I also think Byss is better than Golduck simply because it isn't as boom or bust as duck. There are certain matchups that simply won't allow Golduck to set up a Rain Dance and if it does often it still isn't enough to clean up. Without that rain boost Golduck simply isn't much of a threat while Gorebyss does't necessarily need its boosts to break a mon or 2.

I see your reasoning, but i just want to comment on a few things. Firstly, if non wacan gorebyss is finding opportunities to set up, so is golduck. Afaik golduck has like 5% less phdef but like 15-20% more special bulk, which is why i find wacan sets to be the best set, as who cares if its obviously wacan, it means you get a set up vs like zebstrika. The second sentance, about getting a kill to force nice situations is almost as relevant to golduck really, and too general to be a big article. Also, I dont think I have ever had issues keeping a scarfer around, even rotom-f can stay healthy enough despite a rock weakness, and vs most teams you will want to keep your scarfer to deal with their fast mons/scarfer (the most unreliable things about scarfers is if they fear pursuit). I find it harder to keep things like Grumpig and AV bouff around as they lack recovery, and throughout the game will have to switch into other special attackers:
252+ SpA Life Orb Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grumpig in Rain: 208-247 (57.1 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (disregarding that even bulky pig will be running less sdef)
252+ SpA Life Orb Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Bouffalant in Rain: 216-255 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The most compelling argument as its use as a wallbreaker as it is very strong and hard to wall (it can break through pretty much every special wall), but im not sure if its enough. This reminds me of kingler, and comparing it to huntail, as huntail has significantly more bulk, sucker punch means kingler's better speed is less useful, however kingler's saving grace is its pre set up strength, however it is still 2 subranks below. Obviously you cannot make a direct comparison as they have different traits, but that was more worth noting that i should test it out more, as the kingler thing is most notable when using it lol. I still think it should drop but good post.

 

[ManOfMany]

Drifblim from B- to B

Drifblim, simply put, is one of the scariest sweepers in the metagame. If you glance at many of the replays for PU Circuit Tournament, you will see that Drifblim's Liechi berry set is used in many of them. Popularity is only one thing, but Drifblim has been a highly effective sweeper or disrupter in many of these games. All it needs is for Stealth Rocks to be up on its side of the field, and it can sweep ANY offensive team without a dedicated flying resist. How? Simple. It simply switches in with Stealth Rock 3 times until it activates the Liechi berry at 25% health, and destroys from there, provided the opponent doesn't have a strong Aqua Jet user or Sucker Punch user. Yet Drifblim can also put in massive work when the opponent does have a flying resist. Most flying resists are heavily pressured over the course of the match because of other pokemon they have to check, and Drifblim can easily come in when they're weakened, stall a bit with substitute + will-o, and finish them off.

But Drifblim is more versatile than that...it's not so simple as saying "use flying resist" and beat this pokemon. Destiny Bond variants of the Liechi set are able to open up huge holes by eliminating certain pokemon, like Stunfisk, and opening up the path for others. Baton Pass variants of the Liechi set are able to pass HUGE (because Drifblim's HP is huge, allowing it to pass big subs) substitutes to scary threats such as Machoke or Monferno.

and Drifblim obviously has more sets it can run than just Liechi. SubPetaya is a hugely underrated set that has completely different counters than the physical set. There are additionally very few ghost resists in the the tier, making it easy to sweep after just activating the Petaya berry. It also gets bonus points for actually being able to boost on the free turn it gets after activating the Sub, instead of just dicking around with Will-O or Knock Off. People aren't prepared for this variant at all compared to SubLiechi, and it is very easy to lategame sweep with this.

Substitute-Disable with Sitrus Berry is another forgotten set that is highly effective in midgame. With Disable it is able to actively get around standard counters like Stunfisk and Golem, and it can harass the rest of the opponent's team easily with Will-o-Wisp and Acro.

Finally, Drifblim is also the best dedicated baton passer in PU. The set it employs sounds gimmicky, but is actually very effective as it takes advantage of Drifblim's huge HP as well as Unburden. The set is Subsitute, Stockpile, Baton Pass, Acrobatics with a lot of defensive investment. Drifblim is able to set up a Sub on tons of pokemon, and those it can't it can stockpile and then set up a Subs. Baton passing huge bulky subs alone to wallbreakers like Machoke is great. But there's more- if an offensive pokemon tries to break these Subs, using a Super-Effective move, they'll activate Weakness Policy AND Unburden, and depending on the baton pass recipient it can be GG for the opponent.

With the sheer effectiveness of the Liechi Berry and Petaya Berry sets at sweeping standard offensive teams, and with the versatility it has, Drifblim deserves a bump. It's definitely a threat you have to prepare for on every good offensive team.

Sets:
http://pastebin.com/0VuXE1Wz (Sub+Liechi)
http://pastebin.com/FcQ4uDUn (Baton Pass)
http://pastebin.com/3ENZdQBG (Sub + Disable)
http://pastebin.com/6JC5TNqT (Sub + Petaya)

Stantler from E to D

Stantler @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Return
- Energy Ball
- Earthquake

I did some testing on this mon using the following set, and it does ok. It has a collection of certain unique niches not available to other normal types that allow it to function effectively on it's own right. Over Stoutland it has two things- one is access to Energy Ball, allowing it to break through Golem and Relicanth with extreme ease. This is extremely useful as these two pokemon are the most common dedicated normal resists to date. It also has Intimidate, a highly underrated ability for sacking (or Sap Sipper if you prefer that), and Sucker Punch. Stantler's Sucker Punch actually hits surprisingly hard, and is very useful for cleaning lategame, because PU has plenty of frail offensive mons that use life orb and are easily worn down. This also differentiates it greatly from Life Orb Sawsbuck, and makes it arguably more useful than it vs Hyper Offense.

Stantler suffers from some flaws, such as being frail, and walled by Ghosts. But overall it has a good match up vs many balanced teams and has a set of niches that makes it able to differ itself as a D-rank pokemon.

Example Calc:
252+ Atk Life Orb Stantler Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 147-173 (50.5 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Stantler Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 273-321 (75 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Example Replay vs ShuckleDeath : http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-324479502

 

[Teddeh]

CHINCHOU Unranked -> C+

By now, this is a recycled nomination but ffs it walls the most threatening things in the tier that break balance, such as floatzel, rotom-f, regice and can literally check the entirety of the tier. It works very hard, if you give it a balance poke-diet it will reward you by volt absorbing volt switches from any electric type in the tier (my last 10 matches, chinchou has walled at least 1 thing on their team) whilst gains momentum for balance breakers using volt switch / fishes for burns using scald. Besides, it's way better than seaking lmao. It stays healthy with rest-talk, whilst also takes almost 0 from any special attacker in the tier:
Calcs:

Hide

0 SpA Stunfisk Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 114-134 (32.2 - 37.8%) -- 93.2% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Mr. Mime Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 75-88 (21.1 - 24.8%)
252+ SpA Probopass Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 102-122 (28.8 - 34.4%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chinchou: 100-118 (28.2 - 33.3%)

Majority of you have seen me use it, just give it a rank ffs rofl.

 

[MZ]

In favor of giving it a rank but C+ is definitely overselling this thing, C-/C seems more realistic. Also in favor of Blimp and Lapras rising a bit even if drifblim needs to stop rising after (haha it's a balloon), as well as the below nom.

Armaldo can get bumped back up to B imo. It doesn't exactly excel in any one area but it's decent at everything it does and basically 1v1s most of the meta. It's not a totally reliable spinner but can generally keep off suicide hazards, and it has a few different things it can do, Spin, Rocks over Spin, RP is ok, couple of different moveslots, etc. Definitely liking Passho Berry the best because you can also lure waters/not be total water bait for well played HO to force it to switch out with SR up bc once maldo is at 50% it's kinda worthless. Lum/Lefties are fine though and if u wanna fuck pawn babiri is great for counterteaming. I see it as low B but superior to what we have in B- right now and definitely a solid choice for teams that they overlook due to it being a generally ugly option. Also is Dwebble worth running ever, I get spikes/rocks is cute but with all of these better options I think C-/D is much more fitting.

 

[cityfolk]

Solrock B -> B-

This is a mon that I feel like has been ignored recently. It's just been sitting in B rank when it's not really up to par with the other mons there. With the recent increased viability of mons like Floatzel, Leafeon, Pawniard, and Politoed, this thing just keeps getting worse. It has certainly died out and is rarely seen anymore. Other rockers are much better, like Golem or Stunfisk. It's still an ok normal check but has to run Colbur to switch in on Dodrio. It struggles for moveslots, wanting to fit Morning Sun, Will-o-wisp, Stealth Rock, and a STAB move (or even Earthquake for coverage) on a set. And running just one stab move on Solrock leaves it unable to break through a lot of things it should check, i.e Zen Heabutt leaves it struggling against Dark Types like Vullaby, and Rock Slide makes it struggle against Machoke and Stunfisk. It's kind of an old meta mon and doesn't really have as much of a place anymore, so I think it should drop.

Definitely support Drifblim rising to B (or higher), it's very threatening and can Sub against a lot of mons and forces many switches. A +1 Acrobatics is pretty strong, Knock Off is ok coverage, and Wisp can easily wear down a lot of it's checks. While Rotom's existence may annoy it, it also helps it in a way since they threaten a lot of each other's checks.

Not a huge fan of Chinchou, however I can see it getting like D or C-, but C+ is definitely a stretch. It's ok at walling special Floatzel (and other special waters besides Encore Politoed), Regice, Zebstrika, and Rotom-F in one spot which is cool I guess. Bad physical defense and awful special attack both hold it back a lot. Reliance on Eviolite and rest/sleep talk are also big negatives, but it's ok enough to be ranked I guess.

Not much to say on Dwebble, but I'd support it moving down to C-/D as well. While having both Stealth Rock and Spikes in one lead is nice, it's not really up to par with other leads imo.

 

[Raiza]

Solrock B -> B-

This is a mon that I feel like has been ignored recently. It's just been sitting in B rank when it's not really up to par with the other mons there. With the recent increased viability of mons like Floatzel, Leafeon, Pawniard, and Politoed, this thing just keeps getting worse. It has certainly died out and is rarely seen anymore. Other rockers are much better, like Golem or Stunfisk. It's still an ok normal check but has to run Colbur to switch in on Dodrio. It struggles for moveslots, wanting to fit Morning Sun, Will-o-wisp, Stealth Rock, and a STAB move (or even Earthquake for coverage) on a set. And running just one stab move on Solrock leaves it unable to break through a lot of things it should check, i.e Zen Heabutt leaves it struggling against Dark Types like Vullaby, and Rock Slide makes it struggle against Machoke and Stunfisk. It's kind of an old meta mon and doesn't really have as much of a place anymore, so I think it should drop.

Definitely support Drifblim rising to B (or higher), it's very threatening and can Sub against a lot of mons and forces many switches. A +1 Acrobatics is pretty strong, Knock Off is ok coverage, and Wisp can easily wear down a lot of it's checks. While Rotom's existence may annoy it, it also helps it in a way since they threaten a lot of each other's checks.

Not a huge fan of Chinchou, however I can see it getting like D or C-, but C+ is definitely a stretch. It's ok at walling special Floatzel (and other special waters besides Encore Politoed), Regice, Zebstrika, and Rotom-F in one spot which is cool I guess. Bad physical defense and awful special attack both hold it back a lot. Reliance on Eviolite and rest/sleep talk are also big negatives, but it's ok enough to be ranked I guess.

Not much to say on Dwebble, but I'd support it moving down to C-/D as well. While having both Stealth Rock and Spikes in one lead is nice, it's not really up to par with other leads imo.

I agree on all of your nominations apart from the Solrock one. I am an avid Solrock user, so I feel confident regarding its place and viability right now, so hopefully I can provide you enough valid reason for why I think Solrock shouldn't drop. While yes Pokemon such as Floatzel, Leafeon and Politoed rose to huge popularity, you can't really use that as an argument especially when comparing Solrock to other Stealth Rock users such as Golem, since others also lose to the aforementioned Pokemon. If there was a moment to drop Solrock it was when Exeggutor was here, since Solrock couldn't do much against it really, and Eggy was popular as hell, but now that it is banned, I see less of a reason of dropping it, so I wouldn't say it is an ''old'' meta Pokemon. What I like about Solrock is the fact that is able to easily win 1v1 matchups against most Stealth Rock users, such as the popular Golem, and despite being a defensive Pokemon, decent natural base attack combined with access to Rock-type coverage and Will-O-Wisp, still make it hard and annoying to switch into by some teams. Access to a reliable recovery is also unique among Stealth Rock setters, and if you combine that with Levitate, you get a solid physical wall and decent Normal-type resist, which is durable and not even susceptible to the nowadays great entry hazard stacking that's running around. Access to a reliable coverage also makes Colbur Berry a viable choice so I don't see how it is a burden if it allows Solrock to check Dodrio efficiently. I could also talk about the Choice Scarf set, which is think is ok, but that's incredibly gimmicky so I won't bother, especially since I feel like Solrock already carries enough niches with a defensive set alone to not drop.

 

[YABO]

Hey everybody, I have a question. Why is Beheeyem the same rank as shit like Dusclops. Last I checked, Dusclops is fucking terrible. Beheeyem is far from terrible. It's best set is Trick Room which has only a few obstacles standing in its way before it just sweeps. This tier in general is pretty light on Psychic resists with the notable ones being Pawn, Probo, Vullaby, and some other stuff. Probo dies to HP Fight, Pawn if you get it on the switch, Vullaby is knock off bait and in my experience pretty easy to wear down. Other stuff thats just naturally tanky would be like Stunfish, Clefairy, and idk Audino I guess. These are all pretty big momentum sinks and none want to take LO Psychic anyways. So once you kill darks you click Trick Room against a good amount of stuff actually. Some things I can think of off the top of my head, Zebra, Cottonball if it slept something already, and other shit. I'd assume that Duosion is ranked highly because of its CM set because when I said I was going to use TR Duosion Thisbemyalt called me shit. But once you set up Trick Room and darks are gone, Psychic mutilates everything. I'm not going to bother showing Psychic calcs versus offensive dudes but rest assured, it's pretty much always an OHKO. If you're doubting its power check this out.
252+ SpA Life Orb Beheeyem Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stunfisk: 207-243 (49 - 57.5%) -- 52.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
if that tries to switch in, you set up tr next turn claim your kill and win

252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Beheeyem Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Grumpig: 291-343 (79.9 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
idk wtf Grumpig runs but I figure this is pretty impressive considering i dont think grumpig will be able to touch you.

252+ SpA Life Orb Beheeyem Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Armaldo: 246-290 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
armaldo never takes damage early in the game right...right?

252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Beheeyem Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Bouffalant: 185-218 (47 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
you even chunk out a bouff, dissuading pursuit.

Recently, I've been messing around in the tier just making some terrible teams that are a lot of fun. On those teams I've used Beheeyem like 3 times and it demolishes entire teams if you play it properly. I am also able to make informed opinions about this tier because of my tenure on The Great Gastlys, last year's PUPL CHAMPIONS. So yeah, Beheeyem should get a raise to like B tbh, things a beast.

 

[Teddeh]

Hey everybody, I have a question. Why is Beheeyem the same rank as shit like Dusclops. Last I checked, Dusclops is fucking terrible. Beheeyem is far from terrible. It's best set is Trick Room which has only a few obstacles standing in its way before it just sweeps. This tier in general is pretty light on Psychic resists with the notable ones being Pawn, Probo, Vullaby, and some other stuff. Probo dies to HP Fight, Pawn if you get it on the switch, Vullaby is knock off bait and in my experience pretty easy to wear down. Other stuff thats just naturally tanky would be like Stunfish, Clefairy, and idk Audino I guess. These are all pretty big momentum sinks and none want to take LO Psychic anyways. So once you kill darks you click Trick Room against a good amount of stuff actually. Some things I can think of off the top of my head, Zebra, Cottonball if it slept something already, and other shit. I'd assume that Duosion is ranked highly because of its CM set because when I said I was going to use TR Duosion Thisbemyalt called me shit. But once you set up Trick Room and darks are gone, Psychic mutilates everything. I'm not going to bother showing Psychic calcs versus offensive dudes but rest assured, it's pretty much always an OHKO. If you're doubting its power check this out.
252+ SpA Life Orb Beheeyem Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stunfisk: 207-243 (49 - 57.5%) -- 52.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
if that tries to switch in, you set up tr next turn claim your kill and win

252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Beheeyem Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Grumpig: 291-343 (79.9 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
idk wtf Grumpig runs but I figure this is pretty impressive considering i dont think grumpig will be able to touch you.

252+ SpA Life Orb Beheeyem Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Armaldo: 246-290 (69.4 - 81.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
armaldo never takes damage early in the game right...right?

252+ SpA Life Orb Analytic Beheeyem Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Bouffalant: 185-218 (47 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
you even chunk out a bouff, dissuading pursuit.

Recently, I've been messing around in the tier just making some terrible teams that are a lot of fun. On those teams I've used Beheeyem like 3 times and it demolishes entire teams if you play it properly. I am also able to make informed opinions about this tier because of my tenure on The Great Gastlys, last year's PUPL CHAMPIONS. So yeah, Beheeyem should get a raise to like B tbh, things a beast.

GOOOOO GREAT GASTLYSSS

Nah forreal tho, you could even step it up a gear and run colbur to beat pawn reliably. Not to mention defensive cm sets which are absolutely underrated as hell since beheeyem has access to recover, cm and nasty plot, making it an extremely underrated bulky balance breaker. If you wanted to go one further, you could even run cro-heeyem which would beat every stall team in existence (providing they don't have a dark type rofl).

 

[tehy]

GOOOOO GREAT GASTLYSSS

Nah forreal tho, you could even step it up a gear and run colbur to beat pawn reliably. Not to mention defensive cm sets which are absolutely underrated as hell since beheeyem has access to recover, cm and nasty plot, making it an extremely underrated bulky balance breaker. If you wanted to go one further, you could even run cro-heeyem which would beat every stall team in existence (providing they don't have a dark type rofl).

speaking as a guy who used stall, no

and also, Duosion exists

i think the big question with bee is, can it fit Tbolt for vullaby?

 

[Teddeh]

Quit that sass. Duosion relies on evio, beheeyem can afford to lose lefties / colbur.

i think the big question with bee is, can it fit Tbolt for vullaby?

I'm glad you asked. I composed of an excellently worded and well rounded discussion responding to this:

Hide

Yes

 

[The Jungle Fox]

Quit that sass. Duosion relies on evio, beheeyem can afford to lose lefties / colbur.


I'm glad you asked. I composed of an excellently worded and well rounded discussion responding to this:

Hide

Yes

Er, even though I agree with Beheeyem's rise, I think B is a bit too high for it. Also, vullaby still beats non-specs with thunderbolt (spdef sets) without rocks up, and still has a decent chance of beating with those. I'd not really say thunderbolt fits Beheeyem, it's literally only hitting one thing and BEM loses important coverage to fit tbolt and AoA sets are quite mediocre (maybe it fits specs, but trick is much more useful overall). Beheeyem is still a bad cro user, Duosion is here. Being dependant on eviolite looks bad on paper and enough reasons to use BEM over it, Beehe is much less bulky and Magic Guard helps Duosion a ton when it comes to checking things and setting up reliably. Even though Beheeyem is a really good against bulkier builds, it doesn't have a good match-up against offense (which is far and arguably more common than bulkier builds). It has decent bulk, but a meh defensive typing and it's 2hkoed by most offense members. While on paper TR set looks awesome against offense, it's pretty easy to stall tr turns with the classic fat rocker that most offensive builds run and also priority is really common and an asset to offense. Still agree with rising, but B is overselling it's abilities. C+/B- is fine for it imo.

 

[MZ]

Glad we can all like the post because there's a callout and some sarcasm when the reply wasn't even really sassy but can we quit with the Beheeyem boner making people talk like it's actually that great? First of all, any raise would need to be like C+ because it's worse than a good portion of C imo and certainly not as good as things like Lumineon or Luxray. Most of those calcs aren't really great because nobody's switching in Stunfisk except to fodder it, Grumpig very commonly runs Shadow Ball so it's a decent check, Armaldo isn't bulky, and Bouff is another check. Like sure they aren't inherently bad for Beheeyem but I don't want to raise it because of them. Then there's the whole CM Beheeyem thing which is just overstated. What it does over Duosion is get some passive recovery with Lefties or check Leafeon marginally better and lure Pawn if you want to be stuck with HP Fight and still get revenged afterwards anyway. It's not running CM+NP because then you're stuck with mono psychic coverage which at least Duosion can pull off decently with Acid Armor plus what's NP rly for, and overall Magic Guard provides quite a bit that just got totally ignored, like not having issues with Spikes/Toxic Spikes. All of these things just feel like reaching for a reason to bump it rather than really talking about how Trick Room performs, which is the main reason why it'd go up or down. Anyway, I don't think it's worth going up or even that it's close to best in C rank but every point against it has already been rehashed over and over, it's just incredibly mediocre and I haven't seen any good arguments about why it should rise.

edit: Maybe chill with the full rank rise noms lol
edit: actually to be even more clear because I can feel the reply: these posts are basically listing things it can do and not really pointing to why BEM has gotten better than it was before, is better than the things around it, or why it's even good and has a clearly usable niche over duosion and grumpig on a lot of teams, enough for the B- ranking it's been suggested for.

 

[Magnemite]

Chinchou from unlisted to C-
Lickilicky from C to C-
Gorebyss from B+ to B
Trapinch from C to C+
Lapras from C+ to B-
STANTLER from E to D
Dwebble from C to D

tier shift save us pls

 

[Wooly Ampharosite]

Noctowl from C- to D/E

Outside of defog, Noctowl has little use and is outclassed by other defensive defoggers, such as Vullaby and Lumineon; Vullaby having better bulk and Lumineon not being weak to Stealth Rock. It is weak to common types in PU, such as Ice, Electric, and Rock. Noctowl can be defeated by physical attackers due to its base 50 defense and is basically setup fodder because it is very passive. Its special defense may stand out, but Noctowl can be easily worn out and its weakness to Stealth Rocks doesn't help with this. Although Noctowl may seem like a good defogger, it is hard to fit on teams and has a small niche.

Klang from B to B+

Klang stands out in PU with its signature moves, Shift Gear and Gear Grind. It has great defensive typing and has a resistance to Stealth Rocks and an immunity to Toxic Spikes, allowing Klang able to switch into many pokemon. Its great bulk combined with Eviolite lets Klang set up easily. Shift Gear raises Klang's already decent attack and speed to high levels and Gear Grind hits two times, breaking Substitutes and Focus Sashes. Clear Body is also a notable ability as its stats cannot be lowered. Overall, Klang is a great setup sweeper and a great late game cleaner.

 

[YABO]

Glad we can all like the post because there's a callout and some sarcasm when the reply wasn't even really sassy but can we quit with the Beheeyem boner making people talk like it's actually that great? First of all, any raise would need to be like C+ because it's worse than a good portion of C imo and certainly not as good as things like Lumineon or Luxray. Most of those calcs aren't really great because nobody's switching in Stunfisk except to fodder it, Grumpig very commonly runs Shadow Ball so it's a decent check, Armaldo isn't bulky, and Bouff is another check. Like sure they aren't inherently bad for Beheeyem but I don't want to raise it because of them. Then there's the whole CM Beheeyem thing which is just overstated. What it does over Duosion is get some passive recovery with Lefties or check Leafeon marginally better and lure Pawn if you want to be stuck with HP Fight and still get revenged afterwards anyway. It's not running CM+NP because then you're stuck with mono psychic coverage which at least Duosion can pull off decently with Acid Armor plus what's NP rly for, and overall Magic Guard provides quite a bit that just got totally ignored, like not having issues with Spikes/Toxic Spikes. All of these things just feel like reaching for a reason to bump it rather than really talking about how Trick Room performs, which is the main reason why it'd go up or down. Anyway, I don't think it's worth going up or even that it's close to best in C rank but every point against it has already been rehashed over and over, it's just incredibly mediocre and I haven't seen any good arguments about why it should rise.

edit: Maybe chill with the full rank rise noms lol
edit: actually to be even more clear because I can feel the reply: these posts are basically listing things it can do and not really pointing to why BEM has gotten better than it was before, is better than the things around it, or why it's even good and has a clearly usable niche over duosion and grumpig on a lot of teams, enough for the B- ranking it's been suggested for.

What's changed for it is that someone looked at it, used it, and realized it's misplaced on the rankings, pretty simple actually. From what I've gathered, stall is a weak playstyle in PU, perfect. Stall is the number one strategy that doesn't give a fuck about speed control. Every other strategy hates being outsped. Balance requires a couple key things knocked off or weakened in a way that is pretty much elementary. Bouff is a check? Lay down a TSpike with Roselia and Sludge Bomb it a time or two, no longer a check. Pawniard in the way? Use a Machoke, which also loves Trick Room support. Once those are weakened, you simply find a trick room turn and click Psychic several times. You still chunk the shit out of everything even if it's considered bulky. However, this isn't where Beheeyem even shines to its fullest. You know what you do versus offense? You click Trick Room and the game ends. Obviously, this is slightly exaggerated but forreal it's insane. Trick Room mons in general murder offense, Beheeyem is no different except that it loves running Trick Room and has the raw power to hold its weight even in non offense matchups. Like, I really think you're severely underselling Beheeyem's monster Special Attack. You straight OHKO a ton of stuff with your STAB moves and anything else is likely getting 2hko'd after SR.

THINGS THAT GET OHKO'D BY LO PSYCHIC/COVERAGE

Rotom-F
Floatzel
Roselia (nearly)
Machoke
Pawniard
Golem
Monferno
Zebstrika
Jumpluff
Kadabra
Dodrio
Chatot
Relicanth (offensive)
Mr. Mime
Simipour
Leafeon
Simisage
Raichu
Mightyena
Probopass (offensive)
Electrode
Arbok
Fraxure
Tangela (really fucking close, signal beam kills)
Ursaring (roll after rocks)
Rapidash
26/33 78%

So I listed everything in S through A that dies and, if played properly (yes, thats a big caveat), you OHKO nearly all of them. Not to mention, if you manage to attack on the switch for some reason or another, a few more of these turn into straight okhos like Stoutland. When you reach further down into the tier you see a few more answers pop up like that goat thing and Gourgeist but everything still gets mutilated on the switch.

Long story short, as long as you don't play Beheeyem like a fool you're pretty much guaranteed to trade 1 for 1 at the worst. At the best you sweep a large portion of their team and clear the way for something else to shit on them like RD Beartic or Priority Spam Dewgong. Clicking STAB Analytic LO Psychic is going to chunk the shit out of something every single time. You either mutilate something or set up and mutilate a few things. I fail to see how that is in any way "extremely mediocre".

 

[MZ]

clear the way for something else to shit on them like RD Beartic or Priority Spam Dewgong

Wait wut
Most of the mons you named outspeed and cripple or KO BEM in some way, sure it can trade 1v1 in some situations but it has few switchin opportunities at all and isn't a particularly effective sweeper. Even versus offense, assuming you get rid of the checks like Grumpig or Pawniard that were sorta glossed over in "clicks trick room and wins", this thing doesn't even get to set up without taking like 80% minimum most of the time. The best thing it has going for it is that most checks like AV Bouff and Pawn have no recovery, but even then things like Audino are still a massive pain. I just really disagree on the point that it's a good sweeper at all. I swear BEM used to be my bonermon in early ORAS until I realized it's just not effective in too many of the games you use it in.
edit @ below then I guess it just comes down to u think it does stuff and I pretty much never see it be good w/out somebody being stupid or something. And the outspeed thing yeah ik I meant pretty much everything on there gives it problems in 1 way or another

 

[YABO]

Wait wut
Most of the mons you named outspeed and cripple or KO BEM in some way, sure it can trade 1v1 in some situations but it has few switchin opportunities at all and isn't a particularly effective sweeper. Even versus offense, assuming you get rid of the checks like Grumpig or Pawniard that were sorta glossed over in "clicks trick room and wins", this thing doesn't even get to set up without taking like 80% minimum most of the time. The best thing it has going for it is that most checks like AV Bouff and Pawn have no recovery, but even then things like Audino are still a massive pain. I just really disagree on the point that it's a good sweeper at all. I swear BEM used to be my bonermon in early ORAS until I realized it's just not effective in too many of the games you use it in.

The Dewgong was a joke although Sir Kay could probably let you know the power of Chople Berry Dewgong, aka the Machoke counter. Also, you really just said "most of the mons outspeed beheeyem", no shit its a trick room mon. Anyways, Grumpig is actually a really mediocre check to Beheeyem in this example btw since more offensive sets only need to take one hit from something before it dies after Trick Room goes up and more defensive sets struggle to really pressure a team to where Beheeyem would have to sack itself to it. Also, I really think you're underselling Beheeyem's pretty decent natural bulk, particularly on the special side. You can set up Trick Room versus a ton of things while still having enough HP to take a few life orb rounds or a weak mach punch. For example, Specs Floatzel does like 70 with Hydro, Life Orb Rotom does around the same with Blizzard or half with TBolt. You can also tank hits from weaker physical attackers like Leafeon Knock Off. I've probably played around 20 games with this thing and still have not seen it fail to trade at least 1 for 1. Most of the time it maneuvers its way into a 2 for 1 and other times it kills nearly an entire team. Not to mention, if there is something that your opponent absolutely needs to deal with the rest of your team, you can sometimes Trick Room while taking zero damage and oh boy, is that scary.

 

[Magnemite]

okay i moved beheeyem up to c+

 

[g]

Can i get an explanation on why Stantler moved up to D? Energy Ball isnt a valid answer since Sawsbuck exists, sorry

mag edit: a bunch of people supported, i think megazard was the main one