Smogon Premier League: BW OU Discussion

Bedschibaer

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Smogon Premier League

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The Smogon Premier League is one of the biggest stages of competition on this website and a good opportunity to showcase quality matches of metagames that do not get alot of exposure otherwise. Every past generation will have 5 matches each week that we can discuss here. I will update this thread with the matchups and the replays/logs of every week. This thread should be a place for constructive discussion about things like team choices, matchups, plays but also tendencies in the metagame and so on. Trashtalking players is not allowed. Players commenting on their teams or on certain key turns and answering questions is encouraged.​

coming soon














Predicted percentage of bulky sand teams used per week? :mad:
 
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jacob

the obstacle is the only way
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expecting at least 1 team every match to be using T-Tar and 30% of all teams to be bulky sand spikes teams
 

Lavos

Banned deucer.
first bw game was pretty ridiculous. sun has fallen off since the chlorophyll ban, and thus a lot of teams have gotten painfully weak to volcarona. asuya made a good read on the metagame and pulled out the drought regardless of nerfs, and despite marth i think playing the better game from a strategic perspective, there was nothing he could do against asuya's particular volc set. the lum berry and what i presume were max speed evs pulled him through.

i always hesitate in using absolutes (kek), but literally all asuya had to do in that game was break zam sash and keep hazards clear. you can guarantee the former with dugtrio and all but guarantee the latter with donphan vs. no spinblocker.
 

McMeghan

Dreamcatcher
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Sun hardly played a part in this match-up imo, it was just a team helplessly 6-0'd by a particular Volc set if pulled right. I agree regarding the "simplicity" behind the game, or at least for Asuya. Volcarona doesn't really need Sun to beat its checks except like Dragonite.

Volc is one of those mon whose sets are so close together yet so different in their counters that you pretty much need a faster scarfer with a rock move to be 100% safe in case of set-up (and all rock moves are innaccurate so that's not 100% either). Volc's main disadvantage is that it often does nothing when facing such scarfer in the opposing team.

That's why I think Asuya's team was pretty risky (not bad, only risky): even if you win the weather war with Ninetales, nothing really takes advantage of it except Volcarona which is p.much a one time wonder.
 

Lavos

Banned deucer.
(and all rock moves are innaccurate so that's not 100% either).
are you new to this game? ancientpower, hidden power rock, and power gem all clearly counter volcarona :^) wait they're special...

smack down?

(volc is broken, retroactive suspect 3 yrs late please)

but yeah i agree sun didn't play a huge part in the matchup and only exists on asuya's team as a sort of cheese strat/boost fire blast power i guess? imo you can make better volcarona teams.

in other news, peachy brings back the physical latios spread which i haven't seen since 2013
 

Finchinator

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To help the OP for completionist sake,

Week 3
Week 4
Records:


(I won't be revealing much about me/my teams as I still need to finish out the season ofc, but I have some comments as of now)

My overall thoughts so far (will avoid specific game analysis, but might make some references..really just stating observations, though):
  • - SD Garchomp is seeing a fair amount of usage and doing quite well. Yes, Chomper has always been one of the most used pokemon, but the pure SD variants have been shining a bit better than the Mixed and/or Stealth Rock variants (not to mention, Scarf, but Scarf Chomp hasn't been too big for a couple years now, I'd say). Two examples of it doing well would be my game against Marth - it helped break through his bulky core with SR up and only one "prediction" - and Asuya's game against Dice - I mean, it didn't do too much work, but it cleaned out late after weakening the Skarmory beforehand (I think it needed to win a speed tie in the process, but the overall point remains the same).
  • - Starmie isn't winning many games at all despite being the best spinner, in many people's opinion (not going to get into an argument over this, simply stating what has been thought by many historically).
    | 10 | Starmie | 6 | 20.00% (usage %) | 16.67% (win %) | - this was over the course of the first three weeks and it went 0-2 during week four, if I recall correctly. It's interesting to see this. It might be a testament to the state of the metagame in terms of teambuilding/prep in general and specifically for Starmie/psychic types/spinners (or a combination) or it might just be a bit of a coincidence that hasn't went Starmies way repeatedly (or a bit of both), not too sure, but figured it would be interesting to note.
  • - Landorus-Therian usage is higher than Tyranitar despite facing some competition from Garchomp as a rocker/ground type (although not totally comparable, of course) and Tyranitar being all over the place, which shows the overwhelming amount of team structures that rely on the ground type rocker and/or scarfer in the current metagame. For reference,
    | 1 | Landorus-Therian | 17 | 56.67% | 47.06% | - It also went 4-2 in Week 4, which isn't counted in this statistic, meaning that it will have usage of near 60% through almost half of the season and a win rate around 50%. I think it's safe to say that the most "splashable" (not a fan of this term, but it does fit) and simply common pokemon in the tier right now.
  • &
    ,
    - Spikes are still prominent and BW and probably will be for a while as they're so good and the pokemon with them are solid defensively, too.
    | 3 | Ferrothorn | 10 | 33.33% | 50.00% | & | 6 | Skarmory | 8 | 26.67% | 37.50% | - I do find it interesting that Skarmory has a slightly worse win percentage, but it's too early to really draw a conclusive difference between the two, tbh. A byproduct of this that interests me, however, is this:
    | 16 | Magnezone | 4 | 13.33% | 100.0% | - Magnezone is undefeated so far this season and it's probably the most effective means of getting rid of the spike setting steals (it didn't see any use week four, so that's up to date).
  • &
    - Finally, a bit surprised that Scizor and Jellicent have only been used once over three weeks, but at least Marth used Scizor this week (still a lack of Jelli though).
 

Jirachee

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hey friends, I'd like to share my thoughts on my first 4 battles :toast:

Jirachee:

Sweepage:


replay

Team:
So when I started preparing for Sweepage, I knew he really liked bulky Starmie and defensive teams in general, so I wanted something that could put a lot of offensive pressure on the opponent. Magma Storm Heatran isn't a very common set in BW (it used to be popular on Sun teams, but not much else) so I thought it'd be both surprising and effective in that matchup. From there I wanted a team that could abuse the removal of Starmie and decided that Spikes abuse would be the best, hence the rather standard Alakazam + Latios + Spikes. I actually had some kind of Garchomp over Landorus-T at first but that version was very weak to Terrakion and Garchomp so I decided to make the switch. I decided to make it Smack Down because the team doesn't really like Spikes and I didn't want Skarmory getting free layers. BKC suggested HP Ice, I actually had SD there at first.

Match:
Looking at Team Preview, the matchup didn't look easily solvable but still very much in my favor as he did bring bulky Starmie, and the Landorus-T set I had was super rough on his team. His Dark resist was Tyranitar, so he couldn't switch into my own very well either. I decided that leading Ferrothorn was the best move so I could get Spikes up and potentially paralyze something because I didn't really need it to check anything and the early support would really help the threats I had to his team get to work.

Since he led Rotom-W and burnt Ferrothorn on the first turn, I was able to get what I wanted. I honestly expected him to be some kind of SR Jirachi because it switched into Ferro, with HP Fire probably. Sub just kinda slipped out of my mind which is why I stayed in to Leech Seed it expecting SR. Even then, since it was paralyzed it wasn't that big of an issue especially with Heatran on the team. I really hoped to catch Rotom or Starmie w/ the Magma Storm there, but the residual damage on Tyranitar was alright because now it'd have a much harder time switching into Latios. Also, Tyranitar gave Landorus-T free entry so I could start dealing damage and possibly set up Stealth Rock.

That's when the momentum took a heavy shift in my favor, because I was able to kill his main sweeper and I knew his Garchomp was scarfed at that point. Spinning was too valuable for him at that point so he had to go for it rather than try and catch something with Scald, so I thought going to my own Tyranitar was a relatively low risk move especially since I could remove Starmie really easily with CB Pursuit. The last play of the game that I think mattered was when my Ferrothorn died. Going Latios there on Rotom, I knew he'd keep it because it was his last Pokemon that could hope to beat Landorus-T and he had 2 good switches for Draco Meteor. Tricking there basically guaranteed I took out one of them since Jirachi can't really do much w/ a Choice item if it's paralyzed, and taking out Tyranitar's Chople meant Alakazam just went to town vs him. He did go to Jirachi which I think was the best possible outcome for that play. After that I think my advantage was too big to overcome so yeah... I could have gotten unlucky sometimes in that game (like Scald vs Tyranitar) so I'm glad everything went so well!

Jirachee:

SoulWind:


replay

Team:
Looking at SW's past replay, and from experience with our last SPL battle, I thought his team would have a hard time switching into LO Breloom which is a very underrated set that I haven't seen since like... 2012. I wanted some kind of Bulky Offense team that could take advantage of the momentum Breloom generates while still being able to switch into stuff. Double Dance Landorus-T looked like the perfect partner for Breloom so I went from there and made the team. I couldn't really fit Tyranitar on there which is a shame.

Match:
Latios was a huge threat to my team since my only switch in was SpDef Skarmory (not a bad switch in at all) and he had Magnezone. I kinda regretted not packing Tyranitar then because it really wouldn't have been an issue and my match up would have been great instead. He did have Amoonguss which is lame for Breloom but at the same time he is extremely threatened by the double Grounds with Latios as his only Ground resist. I knew I could win if I made a play or two to get myself in a better position so I started thinking about what I could do.

Garchomp was a lazy lead choice on my part, I should probably have chosen Hydreigon in that matchup. Firing off a turn 1 Draco Meteor would have gotten me in a much better position and maybe I could have baited that Latios and just pretty much have won the game on the first turn. Instead I'm at a disadvantage on the very first turn which is pretty fucking lame... I was scared he'd pull a double on the very first turn which would have just killed me which is why I went to Slowking, who lives the hit and can just Regenerator it off. I knew he wouldn't risk the double after that so Skarmory could take the second Meteor easily. Going back to Garchomp was probably a misplay, because I expected him to either go Tyranitar or Magnezone there as my best options were probably Spiking and going back to Slowking, but at the same time I knew I could salvage it as those remained my best options on that turn and Earthquake would just drop one of them dead. If that happens, then one of Slowking or Skarmory will just pretty much wall SoulWind's whole team and win me the game. As I expected he went to Magnezone and now Skarmory walled him, and I was in the driver's seat.

I think using Spore with Breloom against the Keldeo probably wasn't the most optimal play as Breloom was a huge threat and he wouldn't risk the Amoonguss getting Spored, so I could have fired some attacks there. Latios was just barely out of range for +2 Mach Punch which is why I didn't SD. Although now, with Excadrill asleep and his Spore fired off, there was nothing stopping me from just getting all of my Spikes and just start walling his team. I knew that his Tyranitar was a lame SR variant but I didn't really know which, although at the same time he couldn't really hurt me since I was max SpDef Skarmory and unless he was like... EBelt, then Fire Blast would just bounce off. His last hope was critting Skarmory with Latios then, and I guess I didn't help myself by trying to bait the Meteor but those things happen. Rest of the game is pretty uninteresting

Jirachee:

dice:


replay

Team:
Looking at dice's past teams I noticed they were all either balance or hyper offense so I thought going with a more defensive play style focused on spreading status would be the best way to approach team building. Gastrodon is a Pokemon I really like on those kinds of teams because it checks so much and it can status almost everything, same with Heatran. Alakazam is great at taking advantage of that so I thought it'd make for a great win condition, considering it's pretty hard to go wrong with it.

Match:
I didn't expect dice's Metagross to be a Pursuit set (I thought an Agility set was more realistic) so Latios would just shred something right from the beginning. The damage on Metagross would be good for Alakazam since it's pretty much the only thing holding it back from being an incredible threat. Also, Gastrodon walls his team pretty hard, so I don't need to keep Skarmory around and I can get early Spikes which are going to help a ton. Unfortunately Gastrodon got frozen so the rest of the game is pretty boring

Jirachee:

Marth:


replay

Team:
Building for Marth is kind of a challenge since I knew he could use just about anything and that he loved all of Rain, Sun and full Stall. I thought a strong Fighting type would do well against most of the teams he liked so I decided to bring Mienshao, which is not only immensely strong but also shreds typical Fighting answers (Landorus, Latis) and can hold its own against an offensive team too. The rest of the team is pretty there to maximize the damage Mienshao can deal and help it get in a maximum amount of times. I really wanted a grounded Poison type because I knew he could bring Toxic Spikes. I thought Keldeo was a great last Pokemon on that team, but since he likes Tentacruel and Amoonguss, I wanted one with Scald so it could take advantage of them and work with Mienshao towards wearing them down.

Match:
Right off the bat I notice the extreme threat SubCM Keldeo poses on his team. It sets up on his only answer and will be an enormous pain for him to stop. If I can set up early game I can take a huge advantage and just win the game off it. I have to be careful around his Thundurus though, because my Tyranitar isn't Chople so the Agility 3 attacks set can sweep me pretty easily if it finds free set up. On the other hand, he has to be careful with it because once that dies, he has no Ground resists left and will most likely get swept by my Scarf Landorus. Mienshao seemed like the safest lead to me in that matchup because he will either lead Garchomp, which means I can U-turn to Skarmory for free, or Politoed that I can Fake Out to scout the set.

So as he goes to Scizor I can easily get Spikes with Skarmory which are going to be super useful. Most of his team is grounded and it will lure out Tentacruel which is free set up for Keldeo. I kinda lucked out by dodging his Hydro Pump because I'm sure he expected me to go to Tyranitar and try to Pursuit it on the telegraphed Encore, but it put him in a really bad position. He ended up having Perish Song over it which really helped me in that matchup. Killing Scizor and Politoed early was really nice even though they weren't extremely useful to him in that matchup since I wanted to keep Rain up as long as possible to maximize the damage my Keldeo could do. Sporing the Tentacruel meant that he had no real way to actually touch Keldeo unless I switched it into moves so whenever I switched it in it'd do massive damage and threaten to end the game.

At that point though I'd have to deal with 2 issues, the first being that his Keldeo was SubCM too. I didn't expect him to use that set because it's so rare. Since he had a Scarf Scizor on his team I actually though he'd be Specs which becomes absurdly strong in Rain. Wearing it down with Fake Out and trying to 1v1 it with Amoonguss were my best because I couldn't lock myself into Earthquake because of the second issue. His Thundurus could sweep me any time now provided it could actually hit moves. Looking at my team, he'd probably think my Tyranitar was Chople, so he probably wouldn't try and set up with it, so U-turn could possibly lure it out trying to switch into Earthquake. Rest of the game is pretty self explanatory I guess :o


this took longer than I thought it would -_-
 
hello

Week 1 vs Finchinator

Replay

LUCKSKILL's team: Jirachi / Landorus-Therian / Volcarona / Keldeo-Resolute / Tyranitar / Starmie

FINCHINATOR's team: Latios / Heatran / Landorus-Therian / Scizor / Magnezone / Gastrodon

Matchup looks fairly even, plays were overall ok by me I think, Turn 27 I Giga'd expecting him to stay in, because if I manage to get another round of switches: Lando-T vs Latios, Starmie vs Heatran, Volcarona vs Gastrodon, and get a +1 on Gastrodon with my Passho Berry Volcarona game is most likely over since Heatran then dies to +1 Modest Bug Buzz, so I just went for it, expecting him to just stay in that last chance, I tried.


Week 2 vs Marth

Replay

GOD MARTH's team: Skarmory / Gastrodon / Tyranitar / Amoonguss / Excadrill / Volcarona

LUCKSKILL's team: Hippowdon / Skarmory / Kabutops / Amoonguss / Keldeo / Latias

There's not much to say here, really, Volcarona just 6-0s me, and even without Volca I don't really have any realistic chance at winning this, I tried with a combination of Keldeo + hazards + Amoong to put some pressure on, but scarf Keldeo doesn't really do enough damage, so I just lost badly, rip.


Week 3 vs ToF

Replay

ToF's team: Politoed / Tentacruel / Quagsire / Chansey / Ferrothorn / Latias

LUCKSKILL's team: Tyranitar / Terrakion / Garchomp / Skarmory / Jellicent / Mew

I realized Mew straight up wins this the instant I saw the teams, as long as I can get some damage on Latias, and I have a Tyranitar + Terrakion for that, some people might have questioned my choice to let Jellicent get Toxiced so easily, but since I had no way to stop him from setting up Toxic Spikes freely there's really nothing else I could do, I had 2 Taunt + Wisp users, and both outsped a huge chunk of ToF's team, I'm fairly sure my Terrakion would have lived the +2 Dragon Pulse, unless Latias was max SAtk, but it sounds unrealistic, I didn't calc in the end though, so I might be wrong. As soon as Latias died to my Tyranitar game was basically over, as he had no ways to kill my Mew with only normal poison.


Week 4 vs Badabing

Replay

LUCKSKILL's team: Tyranitar / Mew / Landorus-Therian / Ferrothorn / Latios / Gastrodon
Badabing's team: Politoed / Ferrothorn / Chansey / Gliscor / Gothitelle / Tentacruel

Another rain stall team, another team completely destroyed by Mew, I'm not sure what was my opponent thinking when he brought that team, he didn't even have many ways to kill Gastrodon, save risking multiple times to get burned by Ferrothorn, I honestly expected Specs Gothitelle with Grass Knot, but apparently it was some weird Rest variant, all I had to do was to keep attacking until eventually something died, every mon that died made it progressively easier to win.


So what have we learned? That Mew owns and is criminally underrated
 
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