Lower Tiers ORAS NU Viability Rankings

[Raseri]

ok cleaned up the thread a bit with all the one liners


still want chan to move up too cause its the best spinner in nu

 

[Deej Dy]

Pretty early and I'm just speculating...but I think finally Dentridilly has the potential to rise.

It walls large threats in the tier:
- Shell Smash Omastar (...sorta)
+2 252+ SpA Omastar Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cradily: 272-320 (72.3 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recover
- Physical and Special Zard, barring they hit two focus blasts, which they won't (at least vs me)
- Sceptile also needs to hit both Focus Blasts (Psh that stupid lizard can't hit 1 Focus Blast)
- Shell Smash Barbaracle (absorbs Razor Shell, Return (the most common now) does 0.
Also:
- Eats scalds from anything all day(I'm looking at you Lanturn ya lil shit).
- Walls a bunch of other shit probably idk, the hype has paralyzed my brain.

Also who wants to take on a +2 +2 +2 +2 +2 +2, Ancient Power dilly? Not much!

I wasn't paid by Dentricos I Swear

Do the Dentridilly dance

 

[Cheryl.]

Got some cute little nominations for this new meta:

Hitmonchan for A-: Hitmonchan really improved this shift, as Charizard coming down means more need for hazard removal, and Chan is easily the best offensive spinner in the tier. It also synergizes well with Zard thanks to it beating Rock types, which will no doubt become better this meta. It also got better with Omastar coming down as Chan can revenge kill a weakened SS Omastar thanks to Mach Punch. While not being able to hit Psychic and Ghost types that well hurts it, I can definitely see Chan rising due to it's many positive traits.

Regirock for C+: Regirock also got better this tier shift as being able to check Charizard is pretty nice (assuming that Zard won't hit 2 Focus Blasts in a row, or countering the SD set), and while Steelix and Rhydon give it a lot of competition for a Rocker still, it's superior special bulk and access to Thunder Wave give it a bit of an edge over them in this meta, so I think it should rise.

Jumpluff for B-: This nom I'm not way too sure about, but I just wanted to get it out there. I've been testing out Jumpluff on a team with Shell Smash Omastar, and it's really pulled it's weight so far. It's a great pivot that can cripple something with Sleep Powder, Memento something for a sweeper like the aforementioned Omastar or Barbaracle, and also hit decently hard with Acrobatics. While 110 Speed isn't all it's cracked up to be in this meta, it's still pretty decent to outspeed stuff like Charizard. Jumpluff also can provide your team with a neat offensive switchin to Fighting-types in some cases, as it resists Close Combat and doesn't take much from Knock Off due to running no item. Jumpluff does have a lot of flaws, like being outsped by stuff like Swellow and Sceptile, and being a bit passive at times, but overall with the support it provides by putting something out of commission with Sleep Powder, providing sweeping opportunities with Memento, and just being a cool overall glue mon for offensive teams gives enough merit for Jumpluff to rise imo.

 

[Maysoon]

I agree with Jumpluff to B-. It got a lot better with more and more set-up mons dropping and becoming viable. Sleep is also becoming more and more detrimental. Mons like Mag don't have any reliable recovery and sometimes wont want to come in on Jumpluff and take rocks or even an Acrobatics or what not. Also, Sleep makes something fodder for Barbaracle, Omastar, Malamar, Charizard, you name it. Memento is great for pressuring your opponent to switch, the only true threat to this strat is Pawniard (lol) and Malamar. I feel like Brandon really said all that needs to be said though.

 

[AJB]

My thoughts on some recent nominations:

Abomasnow

A > A- Agree

Aboma is criminally overhyped. It's a Grass type that can't check literally any Water type in the tier outside of like Prinplup and Ludicolo i suppose. Omastar destroys it with Ancient Power, Samu decimates it with Megahorn, Lanturn Volt Switches out, Kabu carries STAB Stone Edge, Poliwrath has Focus Blast etc. It's weak to basically all the common attacking types (Rock, Fire, Poison, Fighting), not to mention how quickly it wears itself down with residual damage as well. It's also an Ice type that can't take Ice Type attacks like Aurorus's Hyper Voice or Articuno's Ice Beam thanks to it's Grass typing. Aboma's disgusting lack of defensive utility requires you to run more Water, Electric, and Ice resists, stacking weaknesses and restricting teambuilding greatly. Abomasnow is a super scary offensive pokemon though that does threaten a lot of common builds, which is why it should just drop to A- for now.
Sliggo

C+ > B/B- Agree

Ras really got the jist of it but Sliggod only got better with the drops. Sliggo is a solid check to Special Zard and Fire types in general, counters special Scep, and overall is a really neat win condition that can turn a battle around quickly. I feel as if B- may fit Sliggo slightly better than B though, as it does find itself being dead weight against certain builds and can be a bit of a momentum suck. Not to mention the increasing popularity in taunt users. Regardless, Sliggo definitely deserves at least a slight bump.
Hitmonchan

B+ > A- Disagree

Hitmonchan is perfectly fine in B+. Yes, on paper it did get better with the drops as it is a solid partner for Charizard and can check Omastar with a strong Mach Punch, but in practice Hitmonchan is a little underwhelming for an A- rank mon. In my experience, Hitmonchan alone isn't a reliable enough form of hazard removal for Charizard, as blocking Chan's spin with common pokemon like Rotom isn't exactly too hard, and Charizard absolutely needs Stealth Rock removed to be effective. When building with Disjunction and a few others, we found that a Defogger such as Pelipper or Mantine actually paired better with Char, as it's the most reliable way to clear the field of hazards. Hitmonchan is certainly not a bad pokemon, but isn't on par with other threats in the A rank and usually works better on paper than in practice.
Jumpluff

C+ > B- Disagree

Jumpluff is a cool pokemon that I think could use some more exploring, and I definitely agree with all the reasons above as to why it's a good pokemon, just I don't see why it would be getting a bump in viability. It's not like the new drops of Charizard and Omastar really benefit Pluff all that much, + 2 Omastar easily outspeeds and OHKO's it and if you're looking for a Grass or flying type to check Charizard you might as well go with Sceptile or Swellow. Jumpluff still faces the same problems it did before drops, as it's speed tier isn't what it used to be with threats like Swellow andSceptile on most teams and the rise of Choice Scarfers again, and it's still hard walled by Steelix. A quick sleep powder and memento are neat utility options, but Puff had these tools before too. Overall, Jumpluff still struggles with the exact same problems it did in recent past and doesn't warrant a rise in rank.

For my own nom, I think Muk

C > C+ is something to look into. With the drop of Charizard, most Sceptile have begun dropping EQ for Rock Slide in order to adapt, and this has left Muk as a great counter to Special Scep. CB Muk actually hits like a truck, and can lure in Steelix with Banded Focus Punch to clear the way for team mates or itself later in the game. Muk also fulfills a team's need for a Mega-Audino counter, a decent Fighting check outside of Ada Band Sawk, and can also be a Knock Off sponge thanks to Sticky Hold.

Muk Calcs

252 Atk Dread Plate Liepard Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Muk: 124-147 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 28.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Muk Focus Punch vs. 244 HP / 4 Def Steelix: 250-296 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Muk: 118-140 (28.5 - 33.8%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Muk Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 338-402 (82.4 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Disjunction]

I'll try and keep this short-ish because I don't want to spend a lot of time on this post.

D --> C-/C

Scarf Rampardos has been seeing a wave of popularity recently as I'm sure a couple of us have noticed. It's Ramp's only usable set and it turns it from a fairly slow and easily exploitable wallbreaker to a much more dynamic and effective one. Despite being unable to outspeed Sceptile, Choice Scarf gives Rampardos the ability to outspeed and destroy a variety of offensive threats that would otherwise destroy it, which is the main appeal, in my opinion. It still hits insanely hard without a boosting item, so I'd be fine with seeing this thing get a raise.

C+ --> B-/B

I wouldn't say it's "the best defensive mon in the tier," but the amount of roles it compresses into one slot for balance teams is nothing short of invaluable. Sliggoo is extremely underrated as a combined Water-, Grass-, and Fire-type check and, especially with the inclusion of Charizard in the tier, has only been getting better as time goes on.

C+ --> B-

Also, if we're talking about role compression, I think Cradily is something that's worth talking about as well. It's not the most splashable mon in the tier, but the ability to soft check the amount of Normal-, Fire-, and Electric-types it does is very valuable. Deej's post alludes to it, but Cradily can soft check the likes of Sceptile, Magmortar, Pyroar, Charizard, and +2 Omastar on top of a bunch of other threats. On top of that, and this is what I believe to be the main selling point of Cradily right now, it is one of the very select few group of mons that isn't pressured and broken down by Rotom in a 1v1 situation. Definitely a neat mon right now.

Noms I disagree with:

A --> A-

Lilligant is still an incredibly threatening sweeper right now. I understand it can't really hit everything in 2 slots, but it still finds a ton of setup opportunities in today's meta. I'd say HP Rock with Yache Berry is a fine set that allows Lilligant to adapt to most of today's meta, assuming you have support in the back for Vileplume and SD Sceptile, which you should already be prepared for anyhow. Lilligant has gotten no less threatening and is probably under-prepared for nowadays, honestly. What sets Lilligant apart from other Grass-types is its superior matchup to offense because of the Speed from Quiver Dance. It's pretty hard to stop once it gets the ball rolling on a sweep.

C --> C+

Regirock is just as consistent a Fire check as it has been, Charizard or not. It takes Focus Blast marginally better than Rhydon, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that it's on-par with Cradily in terms of passive field presence, but with fewer defensive niches. This thing saps momentum faster than it's able to provide support and I would prefer to keep it where it's at.

C+ --> B-

I've thought Jumpluff was awful for a long time. The tier is oversaturated with consistent answers to it, the main offender being Steelix, and its memento set is the only thing that keeps it relevant. Memento, however, is arguably better used by Mismagius and Skuntank who can provide more useful niches outside of just Sleep Powder. Honestly, most opportunities I think I could be using Memento Jumpluff, I'd probably rather use Mismagius.

My own noms:

A- --> A

It's the single scariest set up sweeper in the tier right now. Very few mons are able to consistently put a stop to a barbaracle and people are finally realizing how easy it is to set up with if you run Memento support. It's easily one of the most customizable sweepers we have too, considering it can run any of Stone Edge, Cross Chop, Grass Knot, or Sub in its last moveslot, and any one of Shuca Berry, Chople Berry, or White Herb for its item. It plays to the strengths of its team which is why makes it truly frightening.

D --> C

CB Relicanth is a surprisingly effective wallbreaker right now. Sporting only one guaranteed switch-in, Relicanth can spam Head Smash and the occasional Waterfall to crush opposing squads. It's got a shit matchup vs offense, but that's all of our slow, but insane wallbreakers. Check out these calcs against Rock-resistant mons.

calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Relicanth Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hariyama: 235-277 (54.7 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Relicanth Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Claydol: 150-177 (57.4 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Relicanth Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sawk: 198-233 (68 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Relicanth Head Smash vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Klinklang: 139-164 (49.4 - 58.3%) -- 67.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

On top of those, it scores an abundance of OHKOes I'm sure I don't need to share if you can infer damage output based on those calcs.

C --> C-

Don't get me wrong, I actually love Marowak. It's a seriously cool corebreaker with its insane damage output and access to SD. However, I really don't think it's as consistent as some mons in C, such as Beheeyem and Gogoat. A middling base 45 Speed completely ruins Marowak's chances of shining against Offense and even Balance teams. It's easy to force out and keep out, especially with its inferior bulk. If I were to pick up a Ground-type breaker, I'd pick DD Rhydon because of its better matchup against offensive cores and superior bulk.

Anyways, expect an update sometime soon guys!

 

[Punchshroom]

D --> C-/C

Scarf Rampardos has been seeing a wave of popularity recently as I'm sure a couple of us have noticed. It's Ramp's only usable set and it turns it from a fairly slow and easily exploitable wallbreaker to a much more dynamic and effective one. Despite being unable to outspeed Sceptile, Choice Scarf gives Rampardos the ability to outspeed and destroy a variety of offensive threats that would otherwise destroy it, which is the main appeal, in my opinion. It still hits insanely hard without a boosting item, so I'd be fine with seeing this thing get a raise.

I've never really noticed. What I have noticed are the rise of other Rock-type Scarfers, such as Kabutops and Barbaracle (likely courtesy of yourself), and I don't really see any real reason to use Rampardos over either of those, since Rampardos's Speed tier is worse, it doesn't have dual STAB to fall back on, and it even lacks potential supportive moves like Rapid Spin or Switcheroo. Even its niche of Mold Breaker SR is dwindling, as other Stealth Rockers that can bypass / pressure Xatu, such as Pinsir, Aurorus, and Archeops, are usually far more worthwhile.

C -> Unranked / D

Much like Disj's soft spot for Marowak, I like Ampharos as well. However, in this meta I can't really fathom a situation where Ampharos would really shine over any other Electric-type, most notably Lanturn, which can do pretty much anything Ampharos wants to do with similiar if not greater effect. As far as I know the Agility set is what's even keeping Ampharos there, but preparing the conditions for Ampharos to set up with a comfortable amount of health remaining and for it to sweep unimpeded is hardly easy. This is especially compounded by the fact that Thunderbolt is the only real move Ampharos can rely on, as it would otherwise have to resort to the unreliable Focus Blast and measly Hidden Power. When compared to Agility Lanturn, who has Hydro Pump and Ice Beam which target a wider range of foes more reliably, better typing for easier setup opportunities in this Fire and Water infested meta, and even a better speed tier to outspeed foes after and before the boost, Ampharos rarely has a chance to show its stuff.

C- -> C

Now this is an Electric-type that could see a bit of a rise. While Hail is not as prevalent as was expected, its STAB combo is still really potent. The LO set remains one of the trickiest Pokemon in the meta to defend against outside of Lanturn (if this would be used as a counterargument, all the more reason for Amphy to drop), thanks to its above average Speed tier, powerful dual STABs, and SubSplit or SubWisp causing untold amounts of disruption. One of the biggest reasons for its low rank would be its unfavorable Stealth Rock weakness alongside its opportunity cost (can't use other Rotoms), but it would certainly see an improvement in this meta where hazard control is of greater importance, as it appreciates SR removal support while also preying on the Defoggers for more corebreaking opportunities. C- is just not giving Rotom-F enough credit.

 

[soulgazer]

As someone who used Scarf Rampardos, its much more threatening and stronger than other Choice Scarf Rock-types... like it straight out OHKOes a bunch of Offensive 'mons like Samurott, Kangaskhan, Tauros, Rotom (even PhDef), etc. with just SR up, while adding Spikes to the mix lets Rampardos open massive holes in fatter teams. It pairs very well alongside another Scarfer, like Rotom or Jynx, on Bulky Offense that wants to abuse entry hazards too, which I honestly believe is where it can shine.

 

[Disjunction]

whoa whoa whoa
I'm just a man
missing you
please understand

Rises:
Rampardos D --> C-
Mantine B- --> B
Mismagius B+ --> A-
Xatu A- --> A
Sliggoo C+ --> B-
Hitmonchan B+ --> A-
Barbaracle A- --> A
Relicanth D --> C-

New Mons:
Charizard --> A+
Omastar --> B+

without youuouuou
I'm dyinn

Nominations I'd like to discourage:

Mesprit A --> A+
Metang D --> C-
Cradily C+ --> B-
Regirock C --> C+
Jumpluff C+ --> B-
Muk C --> C+
Lilligant A --> A-
Abomasnow A --> A-
Marowak C --> C-

punchy punchy go-POW

 

[GyRro]

Hooray for the mismagius rise! \o/ I have to agree with several of Dis' suggested rises, especially Barbaracle. Like you say, memento gives Barbaracle an easy set up vs most teams. Also it's very easy to fit this onto a team with either skunk or mismagius being the main choices for memento users, while this is still pretty easily hidden since both mons can have a large choice of 4th move slot moves. The variety in choice of item makes it a very splashable sweeper even without memento being used alongside it. I also have to agree with Sliggoo, giving a blanket check for many of the tiers special threats. Whilst also providing a win con with it's rest talk set. Relicanth can bluff setting rocks, giving it an easier time of setting up speed or just getting off a hell-a amount of damage to whatever mon switches in with the CB set- especially with many teams choice of hazard removal being weak to rock (mainly mantine and pelipper).

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

As much as it pains me to do this, I think altaria should drop to c+. Sliggoo is just much better in this meta and not having a Sr weakness let's it switch in more often than altaria can. Whilst lefties, reliable recovery and good support moves like heal bell and haze, the overall bulk Sliggoo has outweighs alt by a fair bit.

 

[Rennyjesus]

As much as it pains me to do this, I think altaria should drop to c+. Sliggoo is just much better in this meta and not having a Sr weakness let's it switch in more often than altaria can. Whilst lefties, reliable recovery and good support moves like heal bell and haze, the overall bulk Sliggoo has outweighs alt by a fair bit.

Well... While Sliggoo is bulkier and have better Special Attack to avoid being passive as heck, actually Altaria still have a few perks over Sliggoo, mainly:
* Reliable one turn Recovery on Roost.
* Higher speed
* Heal Bell
* Phazing with Roar
* Immunity to Ground moves and against spikes and toxic spikes
* Less reliant on its item
* Resisting Fighting attacks which can make it a better switch in against choice locked Sawk.

That's why I think that while they are kinda similar as a specially bulky dragon type, they actually fill kinda different niches, with Sliggoo being bulkier but Altaria giving team support... So... Keep both of them in B-

See ya!

 

[Kiyo]

--> B+

Hi, as someone who absolutely hated Gurdurr throughout the majority of XY and early ORAS (I was pretty adamant about it going down to B when we redid rankings too) this nomination may come as a surprise to some people. Gurdurr is one of my favorite Pokemon to simply throw on a team and have success with as of late. Bulk Up + Mach Punch is extremely deadly in the late game, especially when you consider how easy to wear down most Fighting type checks are (see Mesprit, Rotom, Mismagius). The ability to recover HP on physical attackers such as SD Samurott, Tauros, Kangaskhan, etc. is insane considering how well you can take their attacks. I'd argue Knock Off is the best coverage move Gurdurr has going for it as it provides the best neutral coverage, but I've seen Stone Edge used to a lot of success in luring otherwise safe switch-ins such as Scyther, Charizard, and Colbur Berry Xatu. If you're looking for a more sturdy fighting type that fits well on offense (i.e. you don't want scarf sawk, you realize hariyama can't provide the priority you need, or you simply don't need spin support from chan) then Gurdurr is your man. I realize the conditions I listed are a lot to fulfill and in general Sawk and Hariyama can be better picks, but having powerful priority and generally good physical bulk give Gurdurr the tools to succeed in a metagame dominated by other Fighting-types.

 

[GyRro]

There's two nominations I want to make since using a variety of teams since the new drops. Ludicolo and Vivillon.

A- --> A

Ludicolo seems to have really flourished since the drops. Obviously Ludi is one of the best rain abusers in the tier, and since the drops this have improved even further due to Charizard and Omastar being weak to both of ludi's STABs. I've also found scarf Ludicolo sets to be great in this meta, allowing it to outspeed zard and KO it, along with other fast mons like Swellow, Sceptile etc. meaning it has a great matchup vs most teams with the new drops. The improvement of the scarf set due to the drops means it is much more splashable onto not only rain teams, but now more so on non weather builds which need a solid special attacking pokemon.

A --> A-

As much as I love this cute little bug, I think it is generally outclassed by lilligant in it's role as a sleeper sweeper, and therefore doesn't deserve to be in the same ranking as it. It's obviously 4x weak to rocks, making it vulnerable to priority- which seems ever more popular. Since Omastar dropped (making it even easier to set hazards) I think this is a major draw back that lilligant doesn't suffer as heavily with. The only reason I can think that you would want to use this pokemon over Lilligant is for the STAB hurricane. To me, this seems like a very specific niche. Especially with Lilligant being able to exert a lot of damage with STAB giga drain etc. (for example +1 252 SpA Life Orb Lilligant Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Sawk: 269-317 (92.1 - 108.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock). Obviously flying is a great stab to have, especially since its such a powerful move such as hurricane, but I don't think this justifies it being in the same rank as lilligant, especially with all the drawbacks I have just mentioned.

 

[Hootie]

I disagree on the Vivillon drop. While yes Omastar is now a thing in the tier and is a very good hazard setter, it's absolutely shut down by mons like Prinplup and checked by Hitmonchan, both of which are better than ever at clearing hazards in this metagame. Nothing notable has changed that really hinders its sweeping capabilities either and is still insanely threatening to face at +1. The extra accuracy on Sleep Powder is something my eyes that I always thought made it all the more threatening over Lilligant because its much more consistent at getting free turns out of the opponent. There's also the fact that very little in the metagame can handle the combination of Hurricane and Energy Ball with the exception being some Steel-types such as Klinklang, which have fallen long out of favor. In no way does Lilligant come close to outclassing this mon and I really don't think the comparison is totally justified when they are played differently in the first place. Lilligant is much more splashable and requires less support, but its much easier to check and will always be walled by something depending on whatever Hidden Power it uses, something Vivillon doesn't really have to worry about nearly as much, putting them about on par with each other.

 

[Jarii]

There's two nominations I want to make since using a variety of teams since the new drops. Ludicolo and Vivillon.

A --> A-

As much as I love this cute little bug, I think it is generally outclassed by lilligant in it's role as a sleeper sweeper, and therefore doesn't deserve to be in the same ranking as it. It's obviously 4x weak to rocks, making it vulnerable to priority- which seems ever more popular. Since Omastar dropped (making it even easier to set hazards) I think this is a major draw back that lilligant doesn't suffer as heavily with. The only reason I can think that you would want to use this pokemon over Lilligant is for the STAB hurricane. To me, this seems like a very specific niche. Especially with Lilligant being able to exert a lot of damage with STAB giga drain etc. (for example +1 252 SpA Life Orb Lilligant Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Sawk: 269-317 (92.1 - 108.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock). Obviously flying is a great stab to have, especially since its such a powerful move such as hurricane, but I don't think this justifies it being in the same rank as lilligant, especially with all the drawbacks I have just mentioned.

I also disagree with Vivillon dropping, I do think Lilligant is better then Vivillon right now but it still deserves his spot in rank A. Don't forget that Vivillon is able to run Energy Ball which gives it almost perfect coverage (despite on Steel types but that is only Mawile, Metang and Klinklang) (Energy Ball is normal effective on Steelix before someone says I forgot Steelix). With Energy Ball and Sleep powder your easily able the prevent omastar to get up hazards. Other thing it mention as well is the lack of Flying resists that doesn't get hit by Energy Ball. Overall I still think Vivillon is still a very threatning mon that deserves it's spot in A.

 

[marilli]

I agree with the Gurdurr raise. to B+

Honestly, I really didn't get the drop much at all. If you are throwing it on and expecting it to be your main answer to Normals the way you throw on a Hariyama and expect it to be your main answer to special Pokemon, then yes, Gurdurr's real bad. But against a lot of teams as soon as their very whittleable Garbodor / Mesprit goes down, Gurdurr just goes to town vs a lot of offensive Pokemon in the tier. Those Pokemon are very easy to take care of because it has a lot of pressure to check other stuff on your team. You can even abuse the fact that many builds with SR Bulky Mesprit does not come built with a Normal / Flying resist on their SR setter, and their normal resist is much flimsier. In a very similar vein, Garbodor builds also rely on Garbodor just throwing itself in the face of aggressive normals like Zangoose for chip damage. That's great because those 2 are accomplished by using very similar wallbreaking support.

Either way a lot of teams that use those specific Pokemon go will be forced their hands in front of aggressive physical wallbreakers. After those 2-3 very specific Pokemon are taken care of, Gurdurr's a huge menace if you don't let it get whittled by forcing it to check stuff. The fact that Gurdurr's very hard to whittle without specific checks really lets Gurdurr shine in the late game. The fact that it can stop sweeps by coming in early (often in exchange for its lategame power, but it's better than just losing immediately) is just a bonus.



EDIT: a bunch of opinion dump which may or may not be backed up later:

Drop: Altaria to C+.
Exeggutor to C+.
Mawile to C+.
Tangela to C+.

None of these Pokemon are bad. It's just that they're on par with Miltank / Grumpig, etc., a defensive utility pkmn / offensive pokemon with notable defensive utility that works ~sometimes~ on specific matchups, generally used to counterstyle, or are offensive Pokemon that are only amazing when given full team support (such as Exegg / Victreebel in sun, Stoutland in Sand, etc.) but is a mediocre version of other Pokemon except with slight edges that often rarely matters + downsides like lower speed that matter very often.

I honestly think the lower VRs could use a thorough revamp in the way they work. In particular, a large number of nearly useless Pokemon that are sometimes useful and often inferior should all be removed from the list. Which in turn frees up more ranks to spread out the Pokemon out more evenly so that the ranks mean something. At the moment you usually end up only seeing Pokemon in A rank when you play. If nearly every Pokemon that are NU by usage belong in B+ and above, bar some anomalies such as Muk, what is the information gained by reading this Viability Tier List? Not much!

Raise:
Beheeyem: to C+ at least. Holy hell this does so much damages and counterstyles tons of bulky teams (especially skuntank balance)
Lapras to C+. For similar reasons + real defensive utility on top of it in water absorb + Ice resist.
Drifblim to B-. Actually a good Pokemon and is actually really threatening with great offensive STABs.

And D rank is basically utter garbage right now. Ariados and Leavanny are in the same rank. And i think everyone who's reading this post will agree on a single Sticky Web user if we ever wanted to use that hazard (which isn't that good ATM, but w/e). And it's not Ariados, and it will won't be anytime soon. Go figure. Just because it gets a combination of moves that other things don't get, doesn't mean it has an actual competitive niche. I'd much sooner use Calm Mind Will-O-Wisp Dusclops before I use Ariados. And yes Dusclops isn't that terrible.

The difference in Pokemon ranked in C, D, and Unranked is that Pokemon that are used by known players go in C-/C, and if they're well known for newcomers having a predisposition for them, they're going into E, and the rest are just jammed into D. Which is why the quality of Pokemon in D are wildly variant.

Ariados to Unranked
Ninjask to D / Unranked
Leafeon from D to C
Jumpluff from C+ to C

 

[etern]

Some noms I've been pondering on for a while:

A- > A

Weezing is arguably one of the most splashable defensive mons in the tier rn, being able to check a multitude of threats (most notably 2 of our 3 S rank mons in Sceptile and Sawk) as well as Hariyama, Hitmonchan, Malamar, Rhydon, Steelix, and the list just goes on and on. Spreading status, Taunting, providing T-spikes support, whilst also dealing respectable damage uninvested means that Weezing will always have some sort of role to play on any type of team. Overall, a really solid mon rn that I feel warrants a rise.

B- > C+

With the arrival of Omastar, and the resurgence in popularity of Barbaracle, Gorebyss finds itself in a very awkward position, and quite frankly struggles to compete. As a shell smasher, Gorebyss struggles to find as many setup opportunities as Omastar, which takes most priority better (bar Mach Punch) and has better overall bulk to rely on. As a swift swim user, Omastar outclasses Gorebyss (granted not by much, but the point still stands.), and also has secondary typing which grants it some nice resistances which aids it in setting up. Overall I just don't see Gorebyss standing out at all when compared to Omastar which can basically fill the same roll and thus I think it deserves a drop.

 

[erisia]

I've brought this up before but I honestly feel like D rank should be trimmed to only Pokemon that have a specific niche that they alone can fill, but are terrible otherwise. It would help streamline the list in general and possible dissuade people from using mons that are for the most part completely outclassed, such as Dusknoir, Rapidash, and Simipour. Sure, they have tiny attributes that make them distinct from things like Gourgeist, Flareon, and Floatzel, but these are never enough to realistically justify their use on more-or-less any team. Even Lickilicky is outclassed these days by offensive Mega Audino. :(

My ideal D rank list would be: Ariados, Glalie, Huntail, Larvesta, Leavanny, and Metang.

Also just wanted to post my thoughts on some noms.

D > B-: Agreeish: I think Drifblim definitely warrants a rise but maybe not this much. When I used it with both the Sitrus + Acrobatics set and my own Colbur + Disable set it put in a lot of work and consistently got a lot of kills / forced a lot of switches. I sometimes use the Colbur set as a Fighting-type check on a team if I have good responses to Stone Edge because it's funny to lure in Knock Offs and just start screwing with the opponent's team. Definitely much better than Dusknoir and Frillish. I would probably give it C+ if it were up to me.

B- > C+: Agree: Shell Smash Omastar is generally much better, if not for any of the reasons that Eternally mentioned, then for the reason that you don't know it's definitely going to run Shell Smash, giving it a little unpredictability and sometimes making opponents less careful about preserving their checks.

B- > C+: Disagree: Exeggutor is way too threatening in my opinion to be C rank. Yes, it's a bit one-dimensional in that it only works on Sunny Day teams, but it's also pretty much the best attacker in Sun in this metagame. STAB Grass + Psychic + Fire mixed coverage is fantastic at core-breaking as Ninetales will tell you, except this thing is basically as powerful as +2 Ninetales and MUCH faster when Sunlight is up, without it having to spend a turn setting up itself. It can even stop checks like Skuntank with Sleep Powder, even if it runs Lum, because it's forced to Sucker Punch until Sun runs out. Alternatively you can run Sunny Day in the last slot as 209 Speed is enough for Eggy to force some guys out, and it does actually have some good resists alongside its numerous weaknesses.

 

[Jarii]

Okay now I have time I am able to say my thoughts about the nominations:

C+ --> B-: Disagree
I get that it's a fast Memento user and is able to be paired up with Omastar easily, but that means that the only purpose of Jumpluff is maybe getting off a Sleep Powder and then Memento which means it's only purpose is to die so another mon is able to set up. While other Memento users can function as another use as well such as Skuntank and Weezing. Another thing we all now kind of agreeing with right now is that Shell Smash Omastar (it's B+) isn't that big of a threat. As an offensive Grass type it gets outclassed in so many ways by almost the other offensive grass types we have in the tier, it's speed tier isn't that relevant right now as well with Swellow, Sceptile and scarfers beginning to get a little bit more populair.

A --> A-: Agree
Despite Abomasnow being one of the most threatning mons we have in the tier it's offensive just doesn't make up for the poor typing and speed this thing has. It's incredible difficult to build around, it's speed doesn't help it at all and the fact that the stats of Abomasnow are poor since it's not really able to take alot of hits. (not to forget weak to stealth rocks) It's also almost useless against offensive teams and now Charizard dropped it makes it even more difficult to use Abomasnow. I'm really sad to say it but it really deserves a rank lower.

A --> A-: Disagree
Lilligant is still one of the scariest Sweepers in the tier. I agree that there are some good counters / checks for it but that doesn't make Lilligant less threatening. Actually Lilligant is a mon that people tend to forget to prepare for lately since everyone prepares for sceptile lately which makes Lilligant even more threatening. If you don't have something for Lilligant it's easily able to 6-0 you.

My nom:

A- --> A
Okay i'm ready give me all the hate you have for this nomination. I'm not going to say that the Lanturn hype is back but it has got better after the new drops, it's able to check every Charizard set besides the physical Earthquake one (which is not common at all), Omastar every set, great Fire, Water, Electric check / counter. It's very splashable on a team and even offensive sets have it's niches now people found out that Specs / offensive AV Lanturn is viable to use. I think it deserves it's spot in A.

 

[kay]

Ninjask to D / Unranked

I disagree with dropping Ninjask. Not a lot has changed for it since it moved from C- to C, I don't see any new reasons for it to drop at all, yet alone to D/ Unranked. It still holds solid niches over Scyther that can let you justify using it. It comes with a fair share of downsides to running it like lack of bulk which means you have to be careful what you switch it into, and the fact that you can't clean as well with aerial ace, but with those down sides you also come with a fair of positives like u-turn having the power to ohko things like bulky SD Sceptile and Lilligant without rocks, infiltrator which lets it revenge things like sub SD Sceptile and a low Rotom hiding behind a sub, and the ability to nuke a normal/ flying resist like Steelix with Final Gambit. I don't see any reason to drop it now out of the blue. The only thing that's made it worse in recent history is Abomasnow dropping which can kill it with Ice Shard but that's about it and honestly not even close to enough to drop it that low. I think it's fine sitting in C.

 

[Disjunction]

Got a quick one going boys

A- --> A

Malamar has been consistently great for a while now. The decline in Scyther usage, the rise of Heat Wave > Signal Beam on Xatu, the meta shifting toward a lot of special attackers, and even being a great deterrent for Mantine/Pelipper to Defog and Mismagius/Skuntank to Memento are all great things going for Malamar. People sleep on Malamar and I think it's time they stopped doing that.

B --> C+

Costa can still function well, but it's seemingly never the right choice. With the addition of Omastar to the tier, its one niche, a specially biased mixed attacking set, is almost completely outclassed again. It holds one niche over Omastar's Shell Smash set of being able to hit Lanturn and Mantine in one slot (with Stone Edge), but when you weigh that against Omastar's superior standalone sweeping capabilities, I find it hard to justify using Carracosta. Defensive set remains mediocre, and fully physical Shell Smash is outdone by Barb.

 

[Ares]

A- --> A
Okay i'm ready give me all the hate you have for this nomination. I'm not going to say that the Lanturn hype is back but it has got better after the new drops, it's able to check every Charizard set besides the physical Earthquake one (which is not common at all), Omastar every set, great Fire, Water, Electric check / counter. It's very splashable on a team and even offensive sets have it's niches now people found out that Specs / offensive AV Lanturn is viable to use. I think it deserves it's spot in A.

+2 252 SpA Omastar Earth Power vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 320-378 (79.8 - 94.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Thats a pretty shaky check, not to mention if someone decides to run Life Orb its a OHKO. Aside from that I don't think I agree with Lanturn rising up. Yes the two new drops don't always beat Lanturn, but I don't think a mon should rise solely on the fact that it beats the drops. I've seen a lot of lanturn in this meta and honestly I don't think its nearly as good as it once was. It tries to check to much in one slot and is easily worn down and is overall a bit disappointing compared to what it once was. Plus people have realized you don't have to have Lanturn v Lanturn to beat Lanturn. Overall I don't feel like Lanturn in this meta has changed to much from when it was dropped down to A- in the first place.

 

[astroboy]

i dont really care about lanturns placement but i just dont get monts reasoning

ss earth power omastar (or just earth power oma in general) is pretty bad considering you have to forfeit either ice beam or hp electric, which are really far better options rn, so i dont really get how that factors into lanturns placement. furthermore, why is your calc for timid ss oma, do people even run that? like you forfeit a lot of power so idk. not even gonna touch on your statement on life orb ss oma

sorry if this was short but im on mobile and tired but i just dont really get how some irrelevant calc and vague claims with little backup make for a sufficent argument ?_?

 

[Froggyboy]

I feel Earth Power is a fine option over HP Electric. HP Electric only hits Mantine, as Pelipper and other waters generally dont like switching in anyway since Hydro hits most of them for stupid damage and all the Water Absorbers are hit by EP too. I get that Mantine is rising in usage and Lanturn is falling, but I think for certain comps Earth Power can easily be fit over Hidden Power Electric since both are used to target one mon anyway xp
plus i like it to hit rock and steel types because im scared of missing hydro